View Full Version : New MP game type: Seek & Destroy (no capping)
23rd Jan 09, 10:38 AM
1) Give each player Quickstart resources
2) Disable all Req and Power generation
3) Remove build timers on all units and upgrades
4) Freeze the camera and all unit movement for the first 60 seconds of the match
5) No turrets
6) Remove pop cap
7) Replace Req and Power costs with a straight-up point cost for each unit and upgrade.
This would allow you to instantly choose, upgrade, and deploy an army based on a fixed and equal amount of resources, and before any actions are taken.
Since there would be no Req or Power gen, those points and the enemy bases are irrelevant and can be ignored. No more whack-a-mole!
Since you can't replace casualties, you don't have time to try to take and hold Victory Points.
The only option left to you is to focus purely on destroying your enemy's army. Once all of one team's forces are dead, the match is over. It's basically DoW 1's Annihilation game, but solely focused on armies, not buildings.
23rd Jan 09, 10:42 AM
Hmmm... That sounds great, actually. It could work in DoW 2's system and engine. Dunno if Relic will implement it, but it certainly is good material for a mod... If the game's moddable, that is.
23rd Jan 09, 10:44 AM
I would definitely support this mode...it'd be like what EiR did for CoH...just no persistence please. As cool as persistent veterancy is, it brings drama and extreme rage.
23rd Jan 09, 11:18 AM
Gimme a time limit and multiple objective options, and I'm in (Ie. randomly distribute victory points to simulate Take and Hold gametype from TT, and remove turrents and put a victory point in their base to simulate Seize Ground, annihilation is easy).
23rd Jan 09, 11:21 AM
That would be awesome. I wouldnt mind objective based maps either, something like SM's are defending a shrine, and orks/nids are trying to destroy it. It could play 2v1, with SM getting double resources, and defending. If the building still stands after 10-15 minutes, SMs win, if it does, they lose. I'm sure many more maps could be made like this, some even pulling from TT fluff historical battles.
23rd Jan 09, 11:22 AM
Well, the point of this game type is to simulate the Annihilate TT game type. So, no capture points at all. The only focus is on killing enemy units. The assumption being that, once the enemy forces are destroyed, you basically control the entire map by default.
I'm also not saying this mode should replace the current Victory Point game. I'm saying it should be added to the game as an alternative game mode.
23rd Jan 09, 11:24 AM
they would have to recost everything tho because all the units are costed to be rebuyable and some are otherwise underwhelming if you cant get them again.
23rd Jan 09, 11:24 AM
I'm intruiged :D Sounds like it's going straight back to the tabletop.
My only concern is that it might not work with unit balance... Part of the way the real DoW game is balanced accounts for how easy it is to quickly get something out. I think we'd have issues with Avatar/Carnifex etc.
23rd Jan 09, 11:26 AM
There were a number of mods that tried for this in DoW I, I wouldn't be surprised if we see the same attempts in DoW II.
23rd Jan 09, 11:30 AM
Bring it. Can't hurt to try. You could have a 30 second timer to select your army. Make all the zeal specials take only zeal points. The army that earns zeal quickly enough can field more units and take the match?
OMG this mode could be glorious with good maps.
Would probably need to cap total number of particular squads in some cases.
I want it NOW.
23rd Jan 09, 12:01 PM
Regarding the uber units and some balancing due to cost. I think you could include the teching cost with the unit cost. For example, if you have to spend 250 Req to get to Tier 2 and 300 Req. to get to Tier 3, then pay another 500 Req. to get a Predator, then the Predator's cost would really be 1050 Req. You cap those kinds of units at 1 so you don't have to worry about diminishing marginal cost for the 2nd (when, in the current set up, you'd only have to pay 500 Req. to get the 2nd Pred.).
It's a balancing act that doesn't seem too hard to achieve. Basically, unit cost should be based on unit power. Forget about the whole Tier thing entirely. This becomes even simpler if you revert to a straight-up point cost (like in TT) so you don't have to worry about balancing a Req. and Power cost.
Unfortunately, Relic hasn't said too much about mod tools, so I fear if anything like this will occur, it'll have to be Relic who adds it in.
23rd Jan 09, 4:46 PM
Is anyone utterly opposed to the idea of focusing all attention on killing units and completely ignoring the cap points? Keep in mind I'm suggesting this as an alternative to the current Victory Point game, not as a replacement of it.
23rd Jan 09, 5:27 PM
you would need new maps and not really spawn points but a general area to place selected units (such as in Any of the total war series). you could have maps for 1v2 were the 1 defends a highly defensible base/area. Also battle from the Fluff would be nice were you would have preset units ect ect....SIEGE OF TERRA ANYONE!?!?!? since units couldnt be replace it would focus more on tactics and teamwork and planning attack diversions, ect ect.
of course you would have units in 100's so with such high amount of units i could see them implementing short to medium range artillery. and of course to counter arty you would have to implement fast attack vehicles.
static defend buildings and items would be nice to. we would need general healer units (light healing) for inf and vehicles.
24th Jan 09, 6:57 AM
Well, new maps could be used by all. the units could just spawn where they currently do (in front of your base building)
:-) I think the Siege of Terra's scale is the polar opposite of the scale DOW2 is going for. An interesting idea none the less.
24th Jan 09, 7:02 AM
This would be excellent. They could also use some bigger maps with more space and clearly defined terrain, as it would be necessary if you're fielding big armies.
29th Jan 09, 12:55 PM
You will not find much resistance to the call for more maps...
No one is going to argue about more game types.
If implemented well, yes, this would be a cool aside to VP.
29th Jan 09, 1:37 PM
This could work, or something like it where you capture &/or defend objectives; though just going at it is EXTREMELY BORING, no offense.
This is how Warhammer: Mark of Chaos & the 1st 2 Codename Panzer Games played out and that got oh so old real quick. :sleep:
29th Jan 09, 2:14 PM
you could always go instal Myth 2 if you want to play something like that
29th Jan 09, 3:55 PM
Anything besides fighting over points with their color change set to speed dial is fine by me. DoW 2 is a game made for fighting each other, not fighting over points.
31st Jan 09, 12:14 AM
This is a really good idea.
It will probably fix most of the annoying stuff currently in the game.
31st Jan 09, 12:33 AM
Way Too Lame….. (No offense)
This is pretty much exactly how one of the modes in Warhammer: Mark of Chaos & Codename Panzers Phase 1 & 2 play out and it is absolutely boring.
Unless there was an objective with a timer, things would get old quicker than the “wack a mole” concept. I am not against more modes, but this has been tried before and with minimal success. If it was still added then have fun, to each his own of course.
FTR the annoying stuff in the game is due to Relic sticking their head in the sand and veering off from the successful formula that makes CoH so great.
31st Jan 09, 2:34 AM
This would only work if a Force-Org table were introduced to prevent spam, along with a point system instead of Power/Req. Perhaps they could port values over from TT. As for Zeal abilities and their equivalents...since you're stuck with the forces you have on the field, it kinda makes Callins like termies a bit useless. Maybe add deep strike but tie it to zeal?
Anyway, a good idea, but as several games like WH Mark of Chaos have demonstrated, it is prone to abuse unless nearly all the TT elements are ported over almost wholesale.
In effect, an entirely new game. I doubt Relic will have the time to balance 2 separate meta-games at the same time.
31st Jan 09, 5:43 AM
Uhh... if Relic's going to introduce any new game modes, please make a proper annihilation mode first. Any "quickstart no capping" mode is just going to do what Relic wanted to prevent, which is making people just interested in pretty explosions ply distinctively from everyone else.
31st Jan 09, 7:17 AM
1) I suggest this as one addtional mode to the current VP game, not as a replacement for it.
2) I tried to make the necessary changes simple enough to make it practical for Relic to give it a shot. Since Relic has made the game unfriendly to modding, I doubt any changes will be made unless they're relatively easy for Relic.
3) The VP game is uber boring right now. A S&D game like this would only be over more quickly if we kept the size of the forces to pathetically small (at least for SMs). Larger forces would make for longer games.
4) I'm actually trying to make a viable Annihilate game with this idea. The only thing different between what I've proposed and DOW1's Annihilate is that the destruction of all units, instead of all base buildings, is the trigger that determines when the game ends. An additional bonus of focusing on units is that it saves Relic from having to determine how best to nerf the base building to make it fair.
31st Jan 09, 10:17 AM
This would only work if a Force-Org table were introduced to prevent spamThis, this, this!!
This should have been and obvious solution to some pretty obvious problems going back as far as vanilla DoW1. Massed Fire Prisms, anyone? Or how about massed Fraggons with minimal troop support in your base for the "I'm Eldar, I win in your bases in under 30 seconds" skullduggery? ... Ok, I know it's not -that- bad, but even so, it's always bothered me that people build these armies comprised of one or two highly spammable units to the exclusion of all else (looking at you, Firewarriors). Enforcement of a force organization chart a la TT would have stopped that dead in its tracks
31st Jan 09, 11:24 AM
You know what I thought of when I read this thread title? Regicide from Age of Empires. You'd have your leader as a powerful unit (powerful enough that you'd want to use him instead of keeping him in base, but not too powerful that you'd HAVE to use him) and if he dies, you lose the game. Maybe for added fun, lock the camera to rotating around your commander, so he'd have to supervise battles himself. Man that would be sweet.
31st Jan 09, 3:02 PM
@Servius: The main difference I see between your idea and a "proper" annihilate is that you want to remove all eco. I wouldn't like annihilate to be this way.
Also, I'm not saying I don't like your idea, but I think Relic should prioritize on perfecting the game mode that is currently in.
31st Jan 09, 7:27 PM
Well, Annihilate could be rebalanced on its own, and Seek and Destroy could be a SEPARATE gametype. I frankly do not see why you wouldn't want MORE gametypes. Certainly, fewer gametypes on launch would ease the balancing process, but this is a speculative thread exploring how one would implement and balance S&D, not how it would replace Annihilate.
Anyway, S&D would be better off without Eco, since no eco means that you are stuck with the forces you have, and losses of men and materiel are of greater impact. Surely, this would tie in with Relic wanting to make RTS players care for their units more. Additionally, the game would become even more tactical than it is now, since it would force players to adapt on the fly with only the tools they have at their disposal.
The only problems I foresee are that without eco, you don't get new squads. No new squads mean either:
Nickle-and-diming gameplay, where players try only to assasinate the enemy's forces
The game outcome relying on a single, pitched battle, all other processes leading up to that point being a struggle of positioning and maneuvering.
To solve this, you need reinforcements. Reinforcements would require Zeal/equivalent to be called in, I reckon. Otherwise the gametype would end up too conservative, with players only engaging when absolutely necessary, and then only with overwhelming force. With lethality as it is, S&D might end up as 10 minutes of positioning, 10 seconds of battle. More thought is needed.
31st Jan 09, 10:07 PM
I lurve this whole idea. It would make the whole game even more Myth-like, and that could only be a good thing. :D
1st Feb 09, 5:15 AM
As I said, i have nothing against the new S&D game type, I'm just saying first things first.
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