SM Drastically Underpowered?

[Soul]

Get a Lock on this Thread my frustration got the better of me!

[Lionel-Richie]

If you're referring to ripper squads, it's best to use an AoE weapon to deal with them, something like a Flame thrower, I believe.

[Saunders]

or frag grenades on your scouts!

[Kratos]

SM are nowhere underpowerd, they have the most feared unit (ASM, hopefully it gets a damage reduction of 30%) and any counter needed.
Lionel-Richie got it right, against those little buggers flamethrowers do wonder!

L2P sorry to say that, but try to find a counter for a given tactic yourself before posting underpowerd threads.

[Deionarra]

Or shotguns, or the Force Commander's Thunder Hammer, or the Apothecary's disruption grenades, or etc....

There's a difference between something being overpowered and something being difficult to beat because you don't understand your enemy and know what counters to use.

[Scooter]

Massive Space marine strengths:
a) Cheap scout capping units.
b) Scout Shotguns - the knockback is amazing. Combined with infiltration, its truly sick.
c) ASMs. Arguably the best allround unit in the game. These things pwn almost anything in close combat, particularly with their jump-in knockback. And with Melta bombs, they have good AV ability too.
d) Apothecary healing. Powerful ability, allows you to keep your army in the field almost constantly. Healing in the middle of battle. Truly ridiculous when combined with the durable ASMs, who can take a big beating before losing a squad member.
e) Dreadnought, arguably best walker in the game, esp with the assault cannon.

Most of the top beta ladder players are SM players at the moment.

As for Tyrannid mobs, note:
i) Rippers deal barely any damage. Make sure you fire on other units, that can actually hurt you.
ii) Heavy bolters can be quite useful in controlling big swarms. Tac marine flamers, also. And ASMs pwn tyrannids in melee - especially when you jump on them, and keep using Apoth healing on them.

[iko]

Space Marines who know how to use scouts with shotguns are some of the toughest opponents I've faced yet. Try it some time. Space Marines are fine.

I mean what Scooter says is true - the top 10 in 1v1 is currently

3 Orks
1 Eldar
1 Tyranid
5 Space Marines

[Hirmetrium]

SM are nowhere underpowerd, they have the most feared unit (ASM, hopefully it gets a damage reduction of 30%) and any counter needed. Your having a laugh. I know this thread isnt for balance, but if ASM get nerfed that much they will be absolutely useless. Their tame compared to Eldar banshees, and cost 150 req more.

SM are very powerful when played properly. Flames rape nids, their so deadly its rather sickening.

[Soul]

1. Infiltration what are you talking about i have researched it and it has no effect?

But granted thanx to the rarther poor design of the upgrade options which are so small they are hard to see and also very numerous i realize now that every unit has many MANY different weapons to choose from, im going to test out your ideas. Little hope of me actually liking this game tho i dont like all the options for upgrades its to daunting....

[Lionel-Richie]

Well without them this game would be Halo Wars. bleh.

[Soul]

Honestly i dont understand they still seem outmatched god knows..... well all the upgrades cost power and power cost req to get so im still outnumbered and i cant get the power against an aggressive opponent because he knows early game he can win automatically.....So yeah i call BS on the lot of you to be honest i want to see replays of SM players in action against aggressive Orks Eldar and Nids.... Get Shotguns you say on a unit that has to get close to now do damage that can be killed in a matter of seconds due to small squad size and low armour! Shotguns are expensive...

Flame throwers cost power, power takes a long time to get going so thats also hopeless! You can only get Nades in tier 2 so whats the point in that! Not only that the Sergant of a scout squad is also very weak....

ive also noticed a severe lack in obvious tell tale signs that units are under attack!meaning that scout squad over the other side of the map is dead before you can even do anything.

[KotCR]

Space Marines are mostly fine and are pretty strong on the whole.

There is just one or two elements they have that are underpowered, and only one area that comes to mind that I can think they are lacking.

There is several aspects to the SM that you couldn't criticise somebody for thinking were overpowered.

[The 9th void]

Firstly, Soul calm down.

you seem to be asking to have sm out swarm the nids? When SM's focus in on small, powerful well used units? Bids units look more deadily than they are as most of the units will fall very fast. Power is not as hard to get as you are trying to make out. Once you get flamer or shotgun that should be enough. Are you then losing those squads by charging head long into the nids?

by the way. If you had map control you aren't really losing if i asume VP was on?

[K-Pooh]

In my very humble opinion, the SM's greatest strength is their versatility. Tac marines seem a bit useless to me at this point (although flamers may be useful)..especially for cost, but between scouts..who can infiltrate, use shotguns, or sniper rifle...ASM who can go after units in cover, or go after heavy weapons...and Devastators who do a competent job suppressing, you can easily adjust your troops, on the fly, to deal with most tactics. Other races just don't have the same range in terms of versitility.

I've only played a few games as SM, but that is my initial impression. That being said, I'm still having trouble countering armor until T3 when predator tanks become available. To me their biggest weakness seems to be a lack of good AV units until later in the game...although i could be very wrong on this point, as I said before i never used tac marines.

[BeFlat]

it seems to me that you lack of micro(not letting your enemy kill your scouts) and macro (building the right counters/research upgrades). practice this maybe vs a.i. if you have problems with doing both (micro/macro) at the same time.

[KotCR]

That being said, I'm still having trouble countering armor until T3 when predator tanks become available. To me their biggest weakness seems to be a lack of good AV units until later in the game
Indeed, that would be the one area I said I can think of that they are lacking.

The two underpowered elements would be the Tacticals (which you also mentioned), and the Plasma Cannon Devastators.

Areas you couldn't really criticise someone for thinking were overpowered, include mostly but are not neccessarily limited too; Scout Shotguns, ASM, Apothecary Healing (and after playing a couple SM mirrors, it seems the Apothecaries Power Axe is total murder when used against other Commanders because it drains mana, or whatever you call it in this game, so fast from opponents - and enables him to spam heals on himself while-removing the opponent's ability to use any special skills, outmeeling close to everything).

That's my take on it so far anyway.

[Skullcap]

I may not be a expert on space marines, but I've been able to reach rank 7 and I've seen rank 15-17 space marine players to and I'm going to say, they are not underpowered in one bit of the sense.

In a 1vs1 environment, it is more ideal to take the Apoc to keep your troops up, plus he's a melee monster when upgraded. Put a tact squad next to him, heavy bolter squads in firezones around the area and assault marines to deal with inbedded foes. Scout shotgunners are excellent, the inflitration works by sneaking around at a distance from the opponents units, if you read the tooltip it says the infiltration breaks if you get to close, so don't go close, get behind and then shotgun out there suppression units.

Ripper swarms? Well, heavy bolter them to death or get your commander unit into the mix, he can kill hordes of them. Its also not that hard to get flamethrowers out if you play agressively and continue to keep the the pressure on. Tyranids are designed for map control, atleast half there units are fast and can cap, so you have to counter it by being agressive and in there face. Also, as mentioned above, you can use heavy bolter squads, place them behind in firezones and draw the tyranids back into the firezone. When I use my Apoc, I run him in, get into alil of melee, then withdraw while using his heals on himself, if the player is obsessed in running me off he runs slap bang into my overlapping fire zones and gets supressed then nuked by the heavy bolters.

Also, cover is where space marines really shine, put a tact squad in the green cover and they can popshot the enemy to death, and yes having a apoc with them makes them survive a hell of alot longer.

On the note of Apoc, equip him with his chainsword, apoc armour and the heal pack which increases his heal str and energy regen and he'll kill nearly everything, if its especially tough equip him with the power axe and he'll carve his way through armoured targets with ease.

Tyranids are really not that hard and just need focus fire, ripper swarms are numberous, but do little damage, they are designed to tie up your units so the bigger tryanids can kill you, using combined arms helps alot with them, so try that out.

[Scooter]

Against tyrannid swarms; shotgun scouts backed up by tac flamers. Very nasty.

[streak]

The SM aren't balanced very well. You need to follow a very specific list of units and upgrades just to remain competitive with the OP stuff of the other races.

[KotCR]

On the note of Apoc, equip him with his chainsword, apoc armour and the heal pack which increases his heal str and energy regen and he'll kill nearly everything, if its especially tough equip him with the power axe and he'll carve his way through armoured targets with ease.
The Chainsword is a nice option and is what I usually use too; But, I've noticed in particular in an Apothecary Mirror - the Apothecary with the Axe instead of the Chainsword will win. The Axe just drains mana so fast...and so your left with one Apothecary with a fullpool of mana, heal spam, and high damage - via his weapon and his heal spam (and he'll also have a Plasma Pistol for what it's worth) and then an Apothecary with nothing left but some lifedrain on his Chainsword.

Obviously the former wins.

EDIT: Infact, I'd say both are good and have their uses, but because of how dominant the Axe is in Commander duels (and how it offers a ranged upgrade as a bonus aswell as a melee upgrade, unlike the Chainsword), that perhaps their places should be swapped in the techtree?

I guess it'd be hard to say without knowing the exact figures for DPS and life/mana drain for each weapon though.

[Scooter]

The SM aren't balanced very well. You need to follow a very specific list of units and upgrades.

Yes, this is true. With Space marines, you must use some combination of scouts, tac marines, assault marines and devastators, partiuclarly with sergeant and heavy weapon upgrades.

Unlike the Eldar, who can get by using only Guardians, Shurricken platforms, Howling Banshees and Warpsiders, along with their Exarch promotions.
Or Tyrranids, who need only use a mix of rippers, hormagaunts, termagaunts and warriors.

Yeah....

[Skullcap]

Aye I forgot about the poweraxe draining energy, suppose it depends on the situation you walk into, I try to have scouts or a tact squad firing on the Mirror match Apoc to keep his head down then allowing my Apoc with chainsword to run in and hack away, he gets quite a decent health boost with each strike to. I do also adjust between the two different 3rd slot heal pack buffs, the one which does damage and the one which increases his energy regen.

I really am enjoying the fact the Apoc has been made useful and just not a secondary unit you bring alot for heals. I can see in 3vs3 ranked games with efficient team members you could go along way to keep your team mates up.

[KotCR]

It's quite ironic really; When people saw the abilities of the various Space Marine Commanders, everybody assumed that the Apothecary would be the weakest of them...but so far playtesting has shown that the Apothecary is in general probably the strongest of the three Space Marine Commanders.

But he does have a weakness. SM anti-tank is rather unreliable as it is, and whereas both the Force Commander and the Techmarine have anti-tank abilities/weapons of thier own (that are effective and help fill in that crucial gap in the SM's arsenal), the Apothecary has no such ability to help plug that hole in.

But if he did; Then I suppose there would be even less reason to take the Force Commander or Techmarine over the Apothecary.

Maybe it's intentional...

[Skullcap]

Laspistol:

For the most part, this imba/balance complaint for this thread is a lack of experience and using the units more effectively, space marines used effectly in consort with each other are lethal.

KotCR:

Yeah I found that quite ironic, he looked not so versitile, but once you play as him, he is as good as force commander in terminator armour or the tech marine upgraded. Granted all this bonus power gives him no anti-vehicle, so he must be supported by other units.

I noticed something with the techmarine, giving him the final bolter and the ranged armour makes him become bloody effective at killing at range, had him gun down a squad of slugga boyz with little ease, which is fun.

[Scooter]

The techmarine seems to be the one that no-one is really using in 1v1s. I think mines spammed throughout the map could end up being pretty useful. What units, if any, can detect the mines? Units like Rangers that can see infiltrated units?
They do some nice damage to infantry, and damage vehicles while slowing them for a brief period.

[KotCR]

I haven't really played with the Techmarine to much.

I mean, even when everybody thought the Apothecary would be weak, it was my intention to make him my main because I like their character...though naturally I'm pleased he turned out much better than most people thought he would.

I've also used the Force Commander a fairbit, mostly in the team-games...and while I think he's not quite as strong in a direct way as the Apothecary - he is very versatile and flexible if you chuck him a huge bunch of upgrades to swap between (and I absolutely adore his Storm Shield upgrade).

But the Techmarine, I haven't had much experience with...I can see why defensive players would use him for his Turrets, but other than that it seemed anything else he could do the Force Commander could probably do better (he lacks a melee weapon afterall), but it is nice to know he has some potent ranged combat capabilities of his own.

Still, when it comes to Commanders I tend to find melee > ranged, so while he's useful for his Turret if that's your thing, Turrets aside how effective do you feel he is in general compared to the Force Commander?

[Scooter]

When I said no-one uses the techmarine, I included myself :-)

He just doesn't really have anything much that I want in a commander.
And turrets still are barely worth using; why not pay a little more req and get a devastator squad that can actually move, and provides a real thread, rather than an "ok, turret there, I'll avoid it until later and use the req I didn't spend on a turret to dominate the rest of the map".

[Pappy13]

I think you're kinda playing the SM's wrong. The nid's are good at decapping and capping because of their numbers and speed. SM's on the other hand are not because they are slow and have fewer numbers. So don't try to keep up with him point for point. Instead use your slow powerful units to kill anything that moves in an area and then move onto another area and then have a scout squad or 2 go around behind your force and cap and just keep moving. Try to stay close to the middle of the map so you have less distance to travel to engage your opponent. He'll be forced to run around your forces and cap the outside points while you control the middle. You don't have to have a resource advantage or even break even resource wise if you use less resources which you will if you don't lose a lot of units and force him to take greater casualties.

Also remember that there are 3 type of resources, requisition, power and victory points. If you can deny him any one of those 3 you can control the map. I find that a lot of players tend to ignore power points and don't take the time it takes to take them. Alot of the higher end units require quite a bit of power and it costs requisition to put generators up, so if you can take and hold the power points, you'll prevent him from producing the higher end units.

[ViS]

Why do these rants never contain correct grammar?

[them apples]

I find space marines under powered early game. Those 500 req 3 man squads can't hold off 3-4 squads of orks.

SM tier 2 seems to be quite efficient though with the dread naughts owning everything in site.

[ViS]

500 req Tac squads can't hold off 1080 req's worth of units? Wonder why.

[stratigo]

Heh Space marines are only underpowered in the very early game when they can pump out 3 units for your every one. Once you get about 4 squads though they balance out and then really dominate tier 2 gameplay.

[streak]

Can they even hold off 2? 2 waaagh'd sluggas will rip the shit out of a tac squad. I don't know what to think of tacs. They're expensive, and they're durable, but that just prolongs the time it takes an equivalent req. of units to rip through them. Also their missles are so fidgety - you right click on a vehicle, and they walk right up to it to fire. Why can't they stay at the edge of the missle range and fire from there?

[Scooter]

Yes, its true, 540 req of melee squads will beat a single unsupported 500 req ranged/melee hybrid squad.

Thats always been the way ranged/melee works; melee units win out in 1v1 confrontations, but ranged units are more useful in larger circumstances.

Tacs aren't lone warriors, you have to use them in concert with other units - your commando, shotgun scouts, heavy bolter devs, etc.

[streak]

So what can tacs do that a combination ASMs, scouts and devs can't do better? Besides cover for SM's sub-par AV options. They can live longer, but that's about it.

[ContractHitman]

best tactics are spam assualt marines, it sad and ul be called a loser and all sorts but you will win 80% of all games.

another tactic is using assualt marines or commander to melee/hold units in combat while tac squad shoots them

tac units i think are the best unit to deal with most threats. t1 dont get flamers they 100% pointless sinse you cannot get rid of them and thus why on earth did relic decide to put them on i havnt a clue.

[KotCR]

Eh? The Flamers aren't pointless, they do impressive damage to buildings and rape small, but numerous, weak units with their AoE.

Though true T2 you'll need what anti-tank you can get, especially considering the squads exhorbarant cost, getting another Tac squad isn't so easy...so you'll want the space spare for a Missile Launcher.

But +1 on other people's ideas about letting Tacs switch between their various special weapons to fix this, TBH, if the squad's cost is going to remain the same as it is now.

[HotForever]

I don't think so. ASM + apoth healing = super hard to counter with nids

[Faust]

Yes, its true, 540 req of melee squads will beat a single unsupported 500 req ranged/melee hybrid squad.

Thats always been the way ranged/melee works; melee units win out in 1v1 confrontations, but ranged units are more useful in larger circumstances.

Tacs aren't lone warriors, you have to use them in concert with other units - your commando, shotgun scouts, heavy bolter devs, etc.

Wrong on all counts.

2 squads of unupgraded sluggas with waaagh will rape a fully upgraded assault marine squad. Hell one squad of sluggas with waagh come damn close to beating a tactical squad.

When the tac squad gets a sergeant, they are better in meele than even assault marines due to ATSKNF and will beat every other meele specialist in meele including fully upgraded banshees.

[ShineDog]

except that the assault marines are going to be mario stomping those 2 squads of sluggas as soon as combat hits, twice if the player is any good. Thats not insignificant damage in itself and its several free hits on the orcs afterwards,

[SteinerNein]

So, Orkz are liek goombaz amirite?

But seriously, it's kinda' funny how the more people play the more they shift on their original stance from imba to yeah it's cost worthy.

Mass ASM is fine, but a mixed army might prove superior to it or say for example counter spam or banshees will alone rip apart your army. Furthermore, considering the argument of scout + HB the simple answer is this: HB is still vulnerable while tac squads are mobile and can be outfitted to last to tier 3.

Don't underestimate mobility in this game and also jump troops while being the paradigm of mobility have the bad habit of over extending or having hard counters.

Basically, use a mix of troops - though I have found that ASM x2 , Tac x2 is a pretty hilarious combo.

[Scooter]

Don't underestimate mobility in this game and also jump troops while being the paradigm of mobility have the bad habit of over extending or having hard counters.

What hard counters do ASMs have? Banshees are a soft counter; ASMs can still perform pretty well against Banshees, esp. if they get the drop on them.

There are no hard counters to ASMs really.

[chandlerr_360]

The only thing that needs to be changed with SM is the tac squad.They are pointlessly pitiful at their high cost.

[SteinerNein]

Top players use Tac squads without complaints, Chandlerr - I use them without complaints either. Why do you continually insist that they are pointless due to cost when others who are more skilled than you utilize them consistently?

If they were pointless, they would not be used.




What hard counters do ASMs have? Banshees are a soft counter; ASMs can still perform pretty well against Banshees, esp. if they get the drop on them.

There are no hard counters to ASMs really.


Surpression from Wail / Doom and or just Levitation. Fully upgraded ASMs lose to fully banshees.

[Faust]

except that the assault marines are going to be mario stomping those 2 squads of sluggas as soon as combat hits, twice if the player is any good. Thats not insignificant damage in itself and its several free hits on the orcs afterwards,

Except you obviously have never labbed this or you'd know even with two jumps on the sluggas its not even close. The fully upgraded ASM still lose to the unupgraded sluggas, and the ASM cost way more power and needs a tier 2 upgrade.

ASMs without the sergeant lose even more horribly to the sluggas.


What hard counters do ASMs have? Banshees are a soft counter; ASMs can still perform pretty well against Banshees, esp. if they get the drop on them.

There are no hard counters to ASMs really.

Warp spiders will slap ASM around silly. And fully upgraded banshees beat fully upgraded ASM.

For orc, nobz is a hard hard counter. A much earlier and cheaper counter would be stickbombz, which hold its own in meele against pretty much anything.

For nids, its warriors with adrenal.

The first thing I did when I started playing the ranked seriously is to spend half an hour labbing unit vs unit comparisons. You'd be surprised at the results. The best tier 1/2 meele unit in the game is the tactical marine squad with sergeant and their special ability active and a flamer, it beats everything else. The downside to them is that they literally cannot retreat so if you get overwhelmed you will lose the entire squad.

[iko]

Anyone in here saying Tac Squads are bad needs to re-evaluate the use of them. They are a ranged damage powerhouse, and can hold their own in melee fine. Aslong as they're not solo and have support, they are alright. Maybe the could do with have 25-40~ requisition snipped off of their initial cost, but that's about it.

Also a little off topic, but if you want to create some yellow cover for a heavy weapons team or such, simply have your ASMs jump and land where you want. They leave behind yellow cover craters where they land, could be a nice little trick if you can spare the energy.

[Scooter]

I think someone doesn't know what a hard counter is....

A Hard counter is something that is massively effective for cost against its intended victim. For example, a jeep in COH is a hard counter to a sniper; a jeep can kill 3x, 4x or more of its own cost in snipers in a direct battle.

Banshees and ASMs are both soft counters for each other. Both are effective against the other unit for cost, but neither massively so; an ASM couldn't kill twice its cost in banshees, or vice versa. And they have other roles as well. DOW2 isn't really a game of hard counters.

As to warpspiders being a *counter* to ASMs...... hardly. They die in seconds if ASMs land on them, and repeated knockdowns can also often prevent the squad from teleporting away. And as for trying to use warpspiders *offensively* against ASMs? Thats just asking to lose your squad.

Warpspiders are great units, but ASMs are not their target victim.

On Tac squads; I build a tac squad as my first unit almost every game, when using an apothecary. You can keep the squad in the field without losing any squad members for a very long time; there's not much in the early game that can fare well against a tac squad and Apoth. They can kill a lot (or force retreats) without taking any damage because of the healing ability.
And then you can upgrade with flamer if needed (burn out LPs and destroy power generators in the early game, as well as good against low hp or mob units), or you have a platform around for missile or plasma upgrades late game if needed.

[Faust]

I think someone doesn't know what a hard counter is....

A Hard counter is something that is massively effective for cost against its intended victim. For example, a jeep in COH is a hard counter to a sniper; a jeep can kill 3x, 4x or more of its own cost in snipers in a direct battle.

Banshees and ASMs are both soft counters for each other. Both are effective against the other unit for cost, but neither massively so; an ASM couldn't kill twice its cost in banshees, or vice versa. And they have other roles as well. DOW2 isn't really a game of hard counters.

Then you are using a red herring. Your argument would be akin to me saying grenadiers are overpowered in CoH because there is nothing that can kill 3-4 times its own cost against grenadiers in a direct battle. Just because something has no hard counter doesn't mean its overpowered.


As to warpspiders being a *counter* to ASMs...... hardly. They die in seconds if ASMs land on them, and repeated knockdowns can also often prevent the squad from teleporting away. And as for trying to use warpspiders *offensively* against ASMs? Thats just asking to lose your squad.

Warpspiders are great units, but ASMs are not their target victim.

I had to laugh at this. Have you actually played a good eldar player using them? Banshees entangle your army in meele, warp spiders provide massive ranged fire. Blink out if ASMs jump on them. You don't use them alone.


On Tac squads; I build a tac squad as my first unit almost every game, when using an apothecary. You can keep the squad in the field without losing any squad members for a very long time; there's not much in the early game that can fare well against a tac squad and Apoth. They can kill a lot (or force retreats) without taking any damage because of the healing ability.
And then you can upgrade with flamer if needed (burn out LPs and destroy power generators in the early game, as well as good against low hp or mob units), or you have a platform around for missile or plasma upgrades late game if needed.

Warp spider exarch + guardian start will easilly force you to retreat. Two squads of sluggas and a warboss will force you to retreat as well. FC+ tac squad? Same thing.

I stopped using the apoth because its simply not that good outside of the invul ability. Heal is nice, being able to knock everyone around in meele, give your troops suppression immunity/ranged damage resistance, or rape vehicles with a powerfist is much nicer. Especially the last part, SM has weak AV, teleport and powerfist is the best AV they get unless you want to build nothing but ASMs with meltas.

[Scooter]

Just because something has no hard counter doesn't mean its overpowered.

I agree. I never said this.



I had to laugh at this. Have you actually played a good eldar player using them? Banshees entangle your army in meele, warp spiders provide massive ranged fire. Blink out if ASMs jump on them. You don't use them alone.

You can't have lots of banshees AND lots of warpspiders, particularly in the early/early-mid game, when ASMs are the most problematic. The space marine player has some support for their ASMs too - or just tons and tons of ASMs.



Warp spider exarch + guardian start will easilly force you to retreat.

How? I will just focus fire on the guardians to kill them or force them to retreat, and then a tac squad in cover with the apoth can heal damage nearly as fast as the exarch can dish it out - all the while the exarch gettnig fired on. Tacs are HARD, the WSE really doesn't kill them fast, particularly while it has to constantly jump to avoid entering melee.

Heal isn't just nice; its AMAZING. Being able to keep your units in the field without having to retreat back to hq to heal them up is phenomenal; and its completely free, and available from the very start of the game.

Now, the Force commander is decent too in his own way, but the Apoth is very strong.



FC+ tac squad? Same thing.

I love how you're arguing that tac squads aren't worth building because they can be countered by.... a tac squad.
And if 2 sluggas and a warboss are all mobbed together, thats even more expensive, and is a reduction in capping power. I can dance them while doing some damage, and use my other squads to gain more map control.

[Faust]

You can't have lots of banshees AND lots of warpspiders, particularly in the early/early-mid game, when ASMs are the most problematic. The space marine player has some support for their ASMs too - or just tons and tons of ASMs.

You don't need lots. One squad of banshees and one squad of warp spiders is enough.


How? I will just focus fire on the guardians to kill them or force them to retreat, and then a tac squad in cover with the apoth can heal damage nearly as fast as the exarch can dish it out - all the while the exarch gettnig fired on. Tacs are HARD, the WSE really doesn't kill them fast, particularly while it has to constantly jump to avoid entering melee.

Heal isn't just nice; its AMAZING. Being able to keep your units in the field without having to retreat back to hq to heal them up is phenomenal; and its completely free, and available from the very start of the game.

Now, the Force commander is decent too in his own way, but the Apoth is very strong.

Have you actually labbed this? I have. Two squads of guardians output so much dps you cannot possible hope to heal it even sitting in heavy cover. Nevermind the exarch.

FC makes up for many of SM's shortcomings, playing apoth is like rolling the dice betting on your opponent not building the SM counters.


I love how you're arguing that tac squads aren't worth building because they can be countered by.... a tac squad.
And if 2 sluggas and a warboss are all mobbed together, thats even more expensive, and is a reduction in capping power. I can dance them while doing some damage, and use my other squads to gain more map control.

Have you actually read what I said? Please quote where I said tac squads are not worth building. In fact I'm pretty sure I said they were excellent and even better than ASM. I said ASM is weak compared to other meele specialists, not tac squads.

Two squads of sluggas is 540 req, one squad of tac marines is 500 req. The starting squad of sluggaz can easilly force the starting squad of scouts to retreat, where is the reduction in capping power?

You're going to dance around units faster than you with slow tac marines? Really? I'd love to see what magical ability you are using for this tactic. Considering that waagh gives a speed buff AND sluggas sprint to close. You've obviously have never tried this or you'd know the sluggas will catch you and then rape your tac marines if you don't run.

[Jaerah]

to chime in from a greenskin perspective:

tacs dont hold up in melee at all. dont even have to waaagh. one choppa. dont know how to fix this

ASM dont bother me, but i see them tearing up eldar platforms pretty easily.


with a apoth on good (read: the player is awake) healing duty ive seen a sm player lose maybe 3 individual squad members from his entire army the duration of the game.

it seems SM is a lot more commander based then other armies (FC term DESTROYS anything, apoth keeps your units from dieing, tech is turret walls)

[iko]

to chime in from a greenskin perspective:

tacs dont hold up in melee at all. dont even have to waaagh. one choppa. dont know how to fix this

Uh, a Tact squad will 1v1 a Slugga Boyz squad and win.

[Jaerah]

@iko we must be playing different games, ive never had a problem downing them in melee, although i rarely get the kill seeing as how god damn durable they are.

[iko]

If you're "rarely getting the kill" then you're not killing them, are you? Plenty of times I've tied up Tact squads with Sluggaz (with Waagh applied) and had 2-4 boyz get killed because of it.

[Jaerah]

retreating is as effective as killing, theyre off the board and im capping points. SM in general love to cling to those last few hp as they waddle off.

of course youre not going to have a full slugga squad afterwards, its a 270 vs 400 battle.

[iko]

Retreating is not as effective as killing. If you're taking a loss while they're not, you're losing. You will fall behind on requisition and manpower and your opponent will then have an upperhand. This is why SM is so powerful.

The fall back to fight another day is so underrated by so many players, retreating so you don't have to reinforce = huge. The dumbest thing you can do is engage in a battle where you'll have a pyrrhic victory.

[Faust]

Retreating is not as effective as killing. If you're taking a loss while they're not, you're losing. You will fall behind on requisition and manpower and your opponent will then have an upperhand. This is why SM is so powerful.

The fall back to fight another day is so underrated by so many players, retreating so you don't have to reinforce = huge. The dumbest thing you can do is engage in a battle where you'll have a pyrrhic victory.

This argument is moot. Because 2 slugga squads will easilly kick a tac squad's ass(till it gets sergeant) and only cost 40 req more. For all intents and purposes assume your enemy has 2 squads for each of yours.

As for the OP. The more I play SM the more I'm starting to think they're just underpowered in every respect. Their meele squads get beaten by other meele squads, their ranged get beaten by other ranged, and they dont have special abilities like teleport to make a lot of their stuff viable. Shottie scouts are nice, but the second one starts capping and a meele unit like banshees get the drop on them the entire squad dies with no way to save them.

Switched to nid, more micro, but warrior spam is just so powerful I have a much easier time crushing people despite having played only a few games.

[Energizer Bunny]

I must say I tend not to build tac squads very much at the moment. I tend to focus on AMS/Scout/Apoc and try to dominate the power nodes in order to get a dread out to deal with anything heavy. I am somewhat susceptible to armour though so perhaps I need to take another look at missile marines.

[SteinerNein]

How does one go about attaching a replay here anyways? I decided to do something utterly hilarious with the Apoth.

[BuBa_HoTeP]

when i read the title to this post i thought someone was been sarcastic

[NoneSuch]

This argument is moot. Because 2 slugga squads will easilly kick a tac squad's ass(till it gets sergeant) and only cost 40 req more. For all intents and purposes assume your enemy has 2 squads for each of yours.

As for the OP. The more I play SM the more I'm starting to think they're just underpowered in every respect. Their meele squads get beaten by other meele squads, their ranged get beaten by other ranged, and they dont have special abilities like teleport to make a lot of their stuff viable. Shottie scouts are nice, but the second one starts capping and a meele unit like banshees get the drop on them the entire squad dies with no way to save them.

Switched to nid, more micro, but warrior spam is just so powerful I have a much easier time crushing people despite having played only a few games.

Assault marines get beaten in melee?

To be fair if you're using a squad to cap which is vulnable to melee and get attacked by a melee focused squad what do you expect to happen? That's a fault on your part, not the games balance.

Marine suppression unit is also pretty effective shooter last time I checked.

[Faust]

Assault marines get beaten in melee?

To be fair if you're using a squad to cap which is vulnable to melee and get attacked by a melee focused squad what do you expect to happen? That's a fault on your part, not the games balance.

Marine suppression unit is also pretty effective shooter last time I checked.

Fully upgraded assault marines get beaten in melee by two squads of non-upgraded sluggas with waagh, yes, thats right, two squads of basic tier 1 infantry costing less than the ASM.

They also lose to banshees and fully upgraded tac marines of all things.

Huh? Who said anything about capping? ASMs lose even when they get the jump on the sluggas and do the double jump.

Heavy bolter is a waste of time, I've yet to have anyone use one against me successfully, this applies to lootas and shuriken cannons as well.