View Full Version : Tyranids T2 and T3
25th Jan 09, 10:18 AM
Right now, the only reason to upgrade to T2 is to get the warrior upgrades. The only reason to go to T3 is the carnifex.
This has been discussed here:
Lictors are very fragile and require too much micro to be cost-effective. A decrease in cost, increase in health, or some combination of those would make it more viable.
The Zoans are ineffective, made of glass, and bugged. They need a major reworking.
The Ravener brood (the t3 unit, not the commander) is alright, but in no way amazing. I haven't had enough experience with it to judge it.
25th Jan 09, 10:30 AM
You could argue the same thing for other races... T2 and T3 are only for upgrades, a few elite units, and other more role specific, micro-intensive units. You have to rely on T1 units for the base of your army.
Gotta rethink your perceptions on Tiers for this game
25th Jan 09, 10:32 AM
Agree completely. I generally find that the majority of my armies consist of 3 squads of warriors, few gaunts and maybe a carnifex by the end of the game.
Raveners just don't seem worth going to T3 for, Lictors are pretty pointless when you can use a Lictor Alpha, even if you don't they still are pretty crap.
Don't get me started on the Zoan, only had it work decently twice and it was for AV purposes.
25th Jan 09, 10:32 AM
Ravener at T2 might be a good fix for them. There's nothing really wrong with them, they just come out way too late to be of much use. They're dedicated anti-infantry, and by T3 you should already be swimming in anti-infantry units, so only reason you'd buy them is if you lost some squads and freed up the pop cap.
Zoanthropes are fragile without warp field turned on (+300 hitpoints), but if you do that then you can't use focused warp blast often. Their firing rate is also absurdly low, and aside from blasting things they have little else to offer. It'd be nice if they granted synapse like they can in TT, or had some other uses, because as a fragile artillery unit they don't offer much compared to the artillery options of other races.
Only suggestion I can think of for Lictors is to give them an "ambush" ability which targets a fairly large circle (The size of a Rok strike). They head there, infiltrate without an on-going energy cost, and just wait for enemies to enter. Infantry that enter are automatically attacked for a few seconds, then the Lictor goes invisible again and hides. As long as troops are there, it will continuously pop up, attack, and hide, over and over, until the "ambush" ability is toggled off. Then you could use them for area denial and they wouldn't require a lot of micro.
If you wanted them to use assault leap or flesh hooks, you'd have to toggle off ambush and control them yourself manually. This fits the fluff, as Lictors are known for being independent, and doing hit and run attacks.
25th Jan 09, 12:49 PM
I agree with the Zoanthrop. It is really fragile and has a very low firerate.
The Lictors are actually quite funny. Fleshhok commanders and you will have an pi**** off enemy. Specially with Lictor Alpha + Lictor ... 2x Fleshhook and most Commanders are dead.
The Raveners are also fine, but also bug. Fleet of Claw is most times missing and needs Energy that is not avaiable for them.
Upgrade them with the Devourers and you have a nice weapon against everything. Burrow them and unburrow behind enemies Suüpport units and you have even more fun. This is also a good way so scout around, just a bit slow due to the missinf FoC.
25th Jan 09, 12:55 PM
Lictors are very formidable units and will completely bash stuff apart with fleshook. I find Tyranids very enjoyable to play and the more tiers I go, it seems, the more powerful my army becomes.
25th Jan 09, 1:19 PM
Ravener Devourer is anti-infantry only, won't do a thing against vehicles, and by then you should have lots of anti-infantry already (Or how have you been surviving until that point?) :)
I mean they're great, I wouldn't change them... I'd just make them available at Tier 2, and buff the Lictor so that the choice between Lictor and Ravener isn't automatic.
25th Jan 09, 3:18 PM
Oh, also, I agree about the Zoanthrope, it needs a bit more HP to justify itself.
25th Jan 09, 3:49 PM
I absolutely agree with moving Raveners to T2.
I tried to get them in T3 to check out how they would do but compared to what a Carnifex can acomplish by that point in game and the army you allready have at that point, it's not a hard taken decision wheter to buy him or wait hat aditional 150 req for a friggin behemoth that is a pain in the derie to kill.
Besides, people will still take T3 when possibl for the Carnie, he's just too bloody awesome to pass up... well, unless you play a Ravener Alpha and spam tunnels with a ranged Warior spam, THEN he's expendable :rofl:
25th Jan 09, 3:56 PM
Zoanthropes are only good against turrets.
But, warp field or not they die if someone notices them and bothers to right-click. In a single shot they have a descent damage, but with their "one in a minute" shoot policy their dps is bottom low.
That and their laughable HP (retreat does nothing, slugs could outrun them) and you have wasted money with you could spend to spawn Warriors.
25th Jan 09, 4:49 PM
Zoanthropes are awesome, and they DO have synapse. They grant health regeneration.
They are artillery units and they have to be screened.
25th Jan 09, 5:09 PM
except that even screening does nothing because any jump/teleport troops can wipe them out and teleport away. Had that happen many times. And they are bugged (level 2 decreases energy to the point where you can not even used focused warp blast. Relic acknowledged that bug) The only time i EVER build them is in stand off war with Hive Tyrant leader to pop some turrets.
Anyway. Their cost is not even close to justified. they need serious health buff to be viable. Lictors are fine as long as we get attack notification sound and shortcut clues ala DOW 1(so that you can press space and center on the attacked unit) since this units are effectively a fairly fragile mini heroes(acceptably fragile not like Zoa).
25th Jan 09, 5:38 PM
The bug is annoying, but their cost is justified. Taking half the health off an ASM squad in one shot or pounding turrets from beyond their range offers you capability you can't otherwise get.
I find their ranged AV capability invaluable when I play Lictor because I almost never get Venom Cannons.
Since the bug'll obviously be fixed, it's not really a balance problem anyway.
You do need to watch for jump troops but that is true of all artillery units and isn't something unique to the Zoanthrope or the Tyranids.
25th Jan 09, 6:26 PM
while I agree with TDS, i could see the zoanthrope having a slightly upped rof; although basically, I think it's a fine unit.
25th Jan 09, 6:56 PM
When Relic gets the Energy supply bug fixed, I suspect Zoanthropes will be a lot more viable. Even their starting energy supply can allow them to fire their focused shot once and still have enough energy to almost double their health.
Killing a Tyranid Warrior squad in just two shots is delicious, and taking 2/3 of a Wartrukk's health with a focused blast is always awesome. The health regen bonus is almost a necessity, as most Tyranid units won't regen at all without it. With the swarmy numbers Tyranids use, a big aoe health regen bonus is just fantastic.
25th Jan 09, 9:37 PM
Zoanthropes are fine as they are neither under or over powered. they provide good synapse (although not of the shooting or combat variety thus preventing ridiclous tyrand zoanthrope balls) and are fairly decent aginst all unit types. I find the best place to have them is in a mostly melee army where they can use their synapse to aid units getting to the front and where they will generally not be targeted first thus indirectly giving them more health.
Lictors are great, they can be very micro intensive but they can also be quite normal. If you want them to take out a MG (any set down anti inf piece) then yes they can be very intensive but if you use them just to cap point behind enemy lines then they are pretty average in terms of micro.
Also if feeling adventerous try a lictor pack of the alpha lictor (my build of extra nrgy, corrosive claws for the great sam fisher sneak kills and terrify) and two vanguards. its great for picking off cappers and groups of 1-3 units.
Another point is that with every tier the damage and health of guants and rippers goes up btw and it is quite a significant boost as well.
25th Jan 09, 11:00 PM
i think xeno should have his mind blast changed to a mortar style arc of fire based shot that lands similiar to the tyrants bio plasma
that way he can coax the HMGs into moving, giving the nids a slight advantage.
26th Jan 09, 6:43 AM
i can only say why i don't use units, not how they should be changed since that would be ridiculous to think i can offer meaningful suggestions of how to balance units after 4 days playing the game.
lictors i use and no they're not 'too micro-intensive' as others have pointed out, flesh-hooking commanders outta fights is amazing (how have you countered that force commander with a hammer?), and breaking up suppression units by attacking from infiltrate has pushed through alot of locked down positions.
the above is why i don't bother with ravener broods, i don't need anti-suppression-unit by the time i get them; the lictor already has it covered.
haven't played with the zoan in multiplayer, just against comps, and the price always keeps me from justifying it in multiplayer so far. its cooldown move is 24 seconds though, not a minute for those who think it is.
26th Jan 09, 7:01 AM
Zoans are too slow. Once spotted, they are dead, no matter how much screening they have. Need a boost in speed, so they ca get away. THey are easily the worst artillery unit in the game.
26th Jan 09, 7:56 AM
The Zoan is a SLOW artillery unit, and we are so used to slow things having a lot of armour or HP to make up for it. Personally I do think he is too weak. In TT they have 2 wounds and a 2+ save / 6+ invun... That extra wound makes them tougher than terminators!
There is no reason for the Zoan to be so weak
26th Jan 09, 11:15 AM
The Zoans are ineffective, made of glass, and bugged. They need a major reworking.
Have you guys used their personal psychic shield? They aren't so weak once you pop that ability. They definitely need some attention though.
26th Jan 09, 11:57 AM
I always use it, but once they level up the shield's effectiveness drops to one-third. It's difficult to gauge their survivability with that bug, but at level 1 they effectively have 500 hit points which isn't bad at all.
I've started using Zoanthropes a bit more, but as anti-vehicle they only work well in groups of 2 or 3. A single Zoanthrope won't be killing a walker anytime soon, but 2 or 3 can start off with a focused warp blast and that will knock it down to half or less than half. At that point regular blasts, and keeping the walker away from your Zoanthropes by using screening troops, will work nicely.
26th Jan 09, 12:53 PM
I just played a Tyranid mirror match, beat the guy who had a 25-5 ratio or something. He never built a warrior squad the entire game. I messaged him after and he says "I think they are too weak, I usually fast tech to carnifex"
What retards was he beating :(
26th Jan 09, 1:12 PM
Good example of why it's still pretty early for some of this balance discussion, Yellow :P
26th Jan 09, 4:38 PM
Another few thoughts about Zoanthropes as anti-vehicle:
Once their energy bug is fixed when they level up, they'll have enough to use focused warp blast twice or more on a full meter. 2 or 3 Zoanthropes using this special attack will knock most vehicles down by half or more, and wipe out Wartrukks in one salvo. Zoanthropes recover energy fairly quickly if they're not using the warp field.
2 Warrior broods with Venom cannon (Closest comparable ranged AV):
~920 req (forget req cost of venom cannon, but I think it's around 60)
~90 power (I think venom cannon is 30 power each)
30 pop cap
20 pop cap
And the Zoanthropes, using Focused Warp Blast followed up by regular blasts, will destroy a vehicle faster. Also the vehicle is stunned after the focused blast, giving you more time to destroy it.
26th Jan 09, 4:50 PM
An additional, Leveling up through the tiers provides health bonuses to units and gives you access to some kick ass biomorphs on your warriors and commanders.
26th Jan 09, 4:54 PM
They have a fairly long recharge on the warp blast though so you can't exactly spam it. That said it does immobilise vehicles making it an excellent compliment to your warriors. Personally I get venom cannons for the range synapse and Zoanthropes for their artillery attacks, the fact that they both combine to take out vehicles is good but I'd never buy one over the other just for their AV.
Lictors are excellent at killing enemy commanders, infiltrators and just wiping out depleted squads that are trying to retreat. I don't build a lot of T2 units but they are excellent support to have.
Personally I don't care for T3, I use the Ravener Alpha so don't really need any more of them and the Carnifex probably has it's uses but I never seem to need it.
27th Jan 09, 5:02 AM
Sorry, but is it just me, or are T3 units in general not used very much. I dont see them used often in MP unless the other team is pretty much dominating already. I hardly ever go to T3 as an Eldar player, because Gravs, Lords and Shees on T2 are good enough to finish a game.
27th Jan 09, 11:35 PM
Carnifex is pretty rockin' though.
Also, T2 upgrades are nice.
And has someone else has observed: your 'gaunts get more health.
The Tiers could use some tweaking though. Like, I'm not sure why I should get Raveners. What do they do that warriors don't? Are they super elite anti-infantry with their devourer or something? *shrug*
Lictors and Zoas are pretty useless.
So yeah, definitely need some tweaking. I do like that Tier 1 units are still valuable late game... but stuff like Zoas and Plasma Devs. seem pretty weak.
28th Jan 09, 12:00 AM
Pretty much the only thing Raveners have on upgraded warriors is tunneling so i would like to see them either biffed or changed altogether. I think they should also make tunnels but perhaps with longer cooldown and some nergy cost ? Either that or they should at least give synapse. Right now i see no reason to making them over fex/warriors. They are fine balance wise but they are redundant and in a game of so few unit choices it feels like a letdown.
28th Jan 09, 4:16 AM
Raveners deal more damage than adrenal warriors, at least to infantry, dropped a farseer's health to 1/3 in like 2 slashes. That and they're fast, still there isn't any reason to get them besides the carnifex, unless you're short on power.
Also, gaunts become stronger each tier, so there's a reason to tech. Zoans are usefull against massed infantry, orks, 'nids or eldar(although not usefull enough to be worth 400 req and 40 power). Never used lictors though, don't really like them.
29th Jan 09, 4:33 PM
Alpha lictor can one-shot an enemy Zoanthrope with flesh hooks. One click and enemy is -400 req and x energy.
Dunno about the standard lictors... But they can jump on him and still kill him in seconds if FH won't frag him outright.
30th Jan 09, 11:16 AM
You gotta admit it's funny watching a lictor flesh hook a commander only to be completely embarassed by said commander in hand to hand. They need a little more offensive capability, right now they're kindof a joke.
30th Jan 09, 11:23 AM
T2 units are crap yeah, T3 isnt that much better, especially since i use Ravener Alpha... but i still get the hive upgrades to increase the health of my other units
30th Jan 09, 12:19 PM
The only unit I get in T2/T3 is the Fex. With Venom Cannons. I actually outfit my entire army with Venom Cannons. It's very funny to see both infantry and vehicles slaughtered by AoE.
30th Jan 09, 11:59 PM
actually lictor alpha with corrosive claws loner and adrenal is pretty deadly. All you have to do is infiltrate first, then flesh hook the enemy commander, then attack from infiltrate. It'll work out, the enemy'll take tons of damage :]
31st Jan 09, 12:59 AM
Only if the enemy commander isn't a Force Commander ^o^. Thunderhammer + Battlecry = dead Lictor Alpha.
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