Minor Balance tweaks mod suggestions

[corncobman]

Right, I'm thinking of making a balance tweak mod with minor balance changes for Soulstorm.

So do you think this mod is needed?

If so, you can suggest balance fixes in this thread. Giving reasons for balance changes would be ideal.

I will be updating this post with suggestions that have a consensus and that have common sense.

Download Soulstorm version 1.2 here (http://www.filefactory.com/file/afh9865/n/SS_BalanceMod_1_2_zip) or here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2000653)

Download Dark Crusade version 1.1 here (http://www.filefactory.com/file/afh9870/n/DC_BalanceMod_1_1_zip) or here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2000619)


Eldar:

Dark Reaper health reduce by 50
Fire Dragon mass reduce from 90 to 45, 50 for exarch
Avatar pop bonuses remove, make Avatar buildable even with full pop
Bonesinger cost increase from 45 to 70, teleport distance reduce
Ranger Infiltration requires Soul Shrine
Warp Spider health reduce significantly from 615 to 415 and delay for teleport increase, Enhanced Reinforced Armour research upgrades armour to heavy high
Nightwing increase damage to infantry
Fire Prism cap cost decrease from 5 to 4, health decrease from 5285 to 4285
Webway Gate no longer counts in Annihilation
Harlequin Kiss splash damage reduce from 200 to 150
Fleet of Foot change to timed ability, duration 8 seconds, recharge time 45 seconds
Dark Reapers, Rangers and Fire Dragons Fleet of Foot changes speed to 20 instead of 24 (from 16)

Space Marines:

Sergeants build time reduce from 30 seconds to 20 seconds
Skull Probe infiltration research remove, make Skull Probe infiltrate automatically
Smite recharge time increase by 20 seconds
Plasma Gun damage increase
Predator cap cost decreased from 5 to 4
Terminator Flamer max damage increase from 32 to 35, min damage increase from 5 to 20

Orks:

Looted Tank cap cost decreased from 5 to 4
Nob Squad leader made separate from the Slugga/Shoota Nob Leader, damage improved, mass increased.
Squiggoth Big Shoota FOTM penalty reduced from 0.35 to 0.25 (25% FOTM accuracy)
Squiggoth Zzzap Gun FOTM penalty reduced from 0.6 to 0.4 (35% FOTM accuracy)

Imperial Guard:

Leman Russ cap cost decreased from 5 to 4
Assassin infiltrate automatically, remove research
Tweak Assassin accuracy and damage
Reduce Guardsmen Plasma Gun damage slightly
Guardsmen Plasma Gun damage decrease from 34/54 to 28/48
Assassin accuracy increase from 80% to 100%, damage decrease from 1100/1400 to 860/1060
Marauder bomb abilities recharge reduce by 1/2 effectiveness reduce by 1/2

Necrons:

Monolith cost reduce slightly perhaps maybe to something like 400 for the second and 800 for the third.
Tomb Spyder Scarabs make able to attack ground units
Warrior per member time multiplier remove
Get-back up squad radius increase from 20 to 30
Forbidden Archive artifact build time incease from 0 to 5 seconds each
Tomb Spyder range weapon accuracy / damage increase
Solar Pulse reduces weapon accuracy by 1/2 instead of disabling shooting

Dark Eldar:

Warrior range increase by 3
Dais of Destruction cap cost reduce from 6 to 4
Souls on death last longer
Souls from Slave Chamber take longer to build
Screams of the Damned soul cost increase from 60 to 80
Piercing Vision soul cost decrease from 40 to 25
Gruesome display addon detect infiltrated units
Raider cap cost reduce from 3 to 2
Reaver Jetbike reduce damage to commanders
Raven increase damage to infantry
Raven require Tier 2, Short Circuit ability require Tier 3
Hellion health reduced from 550 to 500

Tau:

Increase Greater Knarloc speed and turn rate slightly
Barracuda weapons damage spread out more evenly, total damage reduce slightly
Fire Warrior leader cap to 1 each
Fire Warrior Shas'ui Bodyguard give Photon grenades
Hammerhead cap cost increased from 3 to 4
Krootox cap cost increased from 3 to 4
Greater Knarloc cap cost decreased from 5 to 4
Improved Metallurgy requires Shrine of Montka instead of Kauyon

Chaos:

Decrease Hell Talon health by 500
Cultist Grenade Launcher set up time
Chaos Marine Infiltration move to tier 4
Plasma Gun damage decrease
Bloodthirster regenerates health in combat instead of only in melee
Bloodthirster damage to buildings reduced significantly

Sisters of Battle:

Servitor Sabotage require tier 2
Immolator build time reduce from 55 to 35 seconds
Lightning Fighter increase damage to heavy infantry

[Arkandea]

Not to derail or anything, but isn't that what DoWPro is meant for? :Question:

[corncobman]

No, DoWPro is more of a complete overhaul of the way DoW works. What I have in mind is a bunch of minor tweaks that bring each race more in line with each other.

[Arkandea]

Ohh like a fanpatch! Well off the top of my head I reckon lowering Dark reaper HP is a must (too durable as they are) and a reduction of Hell Talon's HP as well.

Reaper gets a 100 hp nerf, from 450 to 350

Talon gets a 900 hp nerf, from 3000 to 2100

Exact values open for debate :)

[corncobman]

Ok thanks for getting the ball rolling.

Eldar:

Avatar pop bonuses removed.

Necrons:

Monolith cost reduced slightly perhaps maybe to something like 400 for the second and 800 for the third.

Space Marines:

Sergeants build time reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds

up for discussion of course.

[PandaMine]

Just go through the variance balance suggestions and implement what is sensible too you

Its a bit late now though, A lot of people have apparently stopped playing SS (Including myself, I don't really play it anymore)

[corncobman]

Oh I know it's a little late, I'm just doing it for the fun of it.

[Buguba]

Pick through the balance threads and just read what people say. Usually, there are one or two awesome ideas that people come up with. Just make sure that you know exactly how a unit fits into an army though; you don't meddle with things you aren't 100% sure about.

[Corsair1]

Well how about making fire dragons weigh less so they can actually be knocked over, or stop them from having FoF. Keep there range and damge though.

[Derogator]

How about taking out the squad cost of all the Relic units.


Well how about making fire dragons weigh less so they can actually be knocked over, or stop them from having FoF. Keep there range and damge though.
Giving Fire Dragons Infantry_Heavy_Medium armor is preferable, I'd say.

[Corsair1]

Ehh i still think a mono should be able to move them.

[Arkandea]

Well how about making fire dragons weigh less so they can actually be knocked overYou realize that's by deliberate design? Fragons may require a nerf, but getting knocked on their bums everytime they try to kill a vehicle isn't it.

One might bring up Celestians in this, but that's for another thread.

[Corsair1]

yeah they are meant to resist knockdown but there should be a limit i mean a mono or a baneblade cant move these things.

Edit:I also said somethiong about removed FoF or reduce the weight. If the weight thing is too much leave it. I dont know much about the fluff but i dont think they are meant to have FoF.

[corncobman]

Personally I think the fact that the Fire Dragon effectively weighs more than the Squiggoth is a bit ludicrous.

[Arkandea]

The explanation is "grav stabilisers".


yeah they are meant to resist knockdown but there should be a limit i mean a mono or a baneblade cant move these things.Totally with you mate, but if they could be knocked over by those units then they'd be effectively worthless against them wouldn't they? A nerf for cosmetic appeal would detract from in-game usefulness.

[phoenixzs]

Dark eldar warrior range increase should be thought carefully.There are already a lot of Warrior builds.Since DE are a bit faster then the races that could be a problem.

And RJB could get a bit nerf too.For example dealing awfull damage to commander armor.

Celestias should benefit from the range increase in tier 3 a bit by the way.

Necron tomb spiders should get a benefit for upgrading their weapons

And please decrease that eldar Warp spider cap to 2.I cant believe relic nerfed the karskin grenade and didnt touch to warp spiders.There should be a realy good placed eldar fun boy in the company.

[corncobman]

You mean Celestians normal bolter weapons or the melta weapons?

@Lord_Akaliba

The explanation is irrelevant.

[edbop]

why not just call it the nerf eldar mod. at least you'd be being honest then.

[corncobman]

There just has to be one doesn't there.

Try posting something constructive instead of not so witty one-liners.

[phoenixzs]

You mean Celestians normal bolter weapons or the melta weapons?

@Lord_Akaliba

The explanation is irrelevant.

I meant the meltas actually sorry for the missunderstanding

And does anybody think Eldar SHOULDN`T be nerfed?

[corncobman]

Hmmm, not sure that the Celestian meltas need changing.


I might also make a Dark Crusade version for a laugh.

[Corsair1]

I hate to say theres only been one change suggested for eldar so fair, harldy a nerf eldar mod. Well only one got accepted anyway.

Another thing you could decrease immolater build time, they seem to take ages for an average and quite expensive tank

Edit:my bad i didnt notice you updated the list

[phoenixzs]

If you are going to require servitor sabotage tier 2 then the damage of it should be also increased.I personally think it should require armory or barracks rather then tier 2 since its a early game tactic to sabotage buildings nobody would bother with it if it was tier 2.

Cheers for the nightwing damage increase aganist infantry.
Lighting fighter could also use one of those damage increases(I think it would be fair to increase it aganist Heavy infantry since its already some kind of autocannon).Otherwise its costing too much in terms of energy what its doing.

i am not quite sure about cultist setup time.It was the thing of theirs and with last patch nerf they are not overpowered anymore.

[corncobman]

The Immolator build time is already in the list.

I just don't like the fact that the SoB player can spam servitors, and then pop a barracks very early in the game.

Lightning Fighter probably could do with a slight damage increase.

I think that Cultist grenades are a bit too cost effective. I was thinking of a setup time of 0.5 seconds or 1 second at the most.

[Maktaka]

Lightning Fighter probably could do with a slight damage increase.Really? I've always found them quite effective in their role of AI support and air superiority, especially with their fantastic FotM accuracy.

[corncobman]

I'll only increase the damage to heavy infantry slightly for the time being.

[Derogator]

Warp Spider health reduce significantly from 615 to 415 and delay for teleport increase
200 less HP, eh. Do they get it back with Reinforced Armor upgrades? If not then perhaps an actual armor upgrade to Infantry Heavy High with Enhanced Reinforced Armor should be applied. Raise squad cost to 3 to compensate. Maybe even cap them at 2.

Since Avatar bonuses are out, then perhaps the Fire Prism's squad cost should be 4 instead of 5. While we at it, the squad cost of the Pradator, Looted Tank and Leman Russ should be 4 as well. I mean, it doesn't make sense that a Land Raider, Squiggoth and Baneblade is almost half the squad cost.

EDIT: Almost forgot, the Nobz Squad's Nob Leader is actually somewhat inferior to a Nob. They need a separate Nob Leader just for them that is actually superior.

[corncobman]

Good point, Heavy Medium to Heavy High with the second armour research. Done.

I'll try it without increasing cap cost for now and see how it goes.

Tank cap costs added.

In what way are Nob Squad leaders inferior?


Version 1.0 released

Download it here (http://www.filefactory.com/file/afgegdh/n/BalanceMod_zip) or here (http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=fd91f6df521b0ac843040b07b9ad288d)

[Arkandea]

@Lord_Akaliba

The explanation is irrelevant.I'm missing how an unit designed for anti-vehicle duties will never be able to fire a shot off at said vehicles is considered an invalid argument.

Ubers are meant to be awesome big units, not Uber in every sense of the word! I'd still like Fragons to function against their targets, thank you :)

[Derogator]

In what way are Nob Squad leaders inferior?
Well, the Nob Leader has half the mass of a Nobz Squad unit, and 50HP less too (with upgrades). The Nob Leader's Power Claw is also actually weaker than the Nobz Squad's own. See for yourself and compare the stats here (http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Nobz_Squad) and here (http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Nob_Leader).

Nob Leader's do have a better ranged weapon though. That's about it. Their morale bonuses are pretty irrelevant.

To fix this, the Nob Leader for the Nobz Squad need to have at least equal mass, slightly more HP, and a Power Claw a little stronger than the Nobz Squad's own to make them a true leader.

[corncobman]

Nob Squad leader added.

@Lord_Akaliba

Eldar have a number of vehicle counters, Brightlance Grav Platforms help a lot, Wraithlord with Brightlance upgraded, Warp Spiders with Haywire Grenades.

Fire Dragons still have Fleet of Foot, their high health and the same armour class as Terminators.

[Derogator]

Fire Warrior Team's leaders should be capped at 1 for each leader, so you can have a Shas'Ui and a Shield Drone, but not 2 of each.

Also the Shas'Ui Bodyguard doesn't have Photon Grenades, so perhaps add it to them since all other Shas'Ui has them.

[phoenixzs]

I downloaded the mod and it's very good actually.If the relic decided for a balance patch like this I would have no objections I think.

But the real problem is I think necrons/eldars in this balance patch.If they are good and in line with other races the other race adjustments can be kept minimal.

[Geno]

Although this is going by what's written, I like the changes to DE and Tau. I'm not so sure about having the attack scarabs attack ground units as well, since the animation would make it look awkward and they'd be a bit too useful given they can fly. With regards to the DE Warrior range increase, is it out-of-the-box or after the soulseeker upgrade? Personally, DE Warriors are plenty strong early on in the game without the need for a range increase.

[corncobman]

It's out of the box.

[Corsair1]

With the eldar ava pop bonus, if its remeoved does the Ava still cost 5 inf cap?

[corncobman]

Yes it does at the moment.

[Corsair1]

Isnt 5 inf cap a bit much if it no longer gives bonuses.

[corncobman]

It still makes nearby infantry morale immune and doubles production rate of the Aspect Portals, Webway Gates and Webway Assemblies.

Still a fair number of bonuses. As well as being a very stong combat unit in itself.

[Derogator]

How about making the Avatar like the Bloodthirster in having 5 squad cost but can go over the limit. (25/20)


Anyways, I got one for the Vindicare Assassin, I always thought he should come out infiltrated already.

[corncobman]

Hmmmm, that could be doable.

Re the Assassin, yeah that's a good suggestion and one I was thinking of doing.

[bman3k]

Make Terminator Heavy Flamers do more damage :)

[Corsair1]

Yeah theres no point in getting them at the moment,

[corncobman]

Added to the list, max damage increase from 32 to 35, min damage increase from 5 to 20

[_McGr3g_]

as much as i admire your effort in making balance mod, i would say ~50% of this changes are not questionable at its best. remaining ones are highly debatable(nonconsistent change to t3/4 tanks vehcap, i.e. not touching tau ones?), and few of them are just stupid(buffing one of the strongest t3, that has one of the best ecos i.e. ig?).
gave just 2 examples that i remember after reading, but there are moar.
nice inintitive for good old dead dow, but 'common sense' and 'minor tweaks' are not the words u should use ;)

[corncobman]

What would you like to see as far as Tau vehicle cap is concerned? I have thought about increasing the Hammerhead vehicle cap cost but I'm not sure about that.

I am actually thinking of reducing the power of IG's tier 3 in some way.

The changes are minor in the sense that they are stat tweaks and the gameplay hasn't changed all that much.

[Zallis]

One thing I'd like to see about the vindicare assassin. Increase his accuracy to 100%, but change the damage or the refire rate so that his DPS stays the same. As it stands, if he misses a shot, it's going to be a while before the next shot comes. Further more, it makes his assassination scope ability underperform, because if he misses one shot, you're only going to get 1 more with the ability active.

Granted, he may not be missing all that often, but when he does, it's aggravating.

[corncobman]

Added. Also added:

Eldar:

Webway Gate no longer counts in Annihilation

Orks:

Squiggoth Big Shoota FOTM penalty reduced from 0.35 to 0.25 (25% FOTM accuracy)
Squiggoth Zzzap Gun FOTM penalty reduced from 0.6 to 0.4 (35% FOTM accuracy)

Imperial Guard:

Guardsmen Plasma Gun damage decreased from 34/54 to 28/48

Dark Eldar:

Raven now requires Tier 2, Short Circuit ability requires Tier 3

Tau:

Hammerhead cap cost increased from 3 to 4
Krootox cap cost increased from 3 to 4
Greater Knarloc cap cost decreased from 5 to 4

[Maktaka]

Just remembered something I suggested way back for the 1.10 patch:

Halve the recharge time of the Marauder's three bombing runs. Halve the effect of all three abilities as well (initial damage, burn damage, ranged damage reduction, etc). This keeps the unit more frequently useful (once every 60 seconds kinda sucks) without making it more powerful.

[corncobman]

Good idea. Thanks Maktaka.

[steel_tomatoes]

You probably don't want to hear this but I always thought that fragon fof was the problem not the mass. Atleast there is an explanation for the high mass, but then explain how these "stick to the ground" boots can go like speedy gonzarlous? Remove FoF, and suddenly fragons aren't quite so unkillable. For one thing, they would no longer be able to send a single fragon squad to the quiet side of your base and destroy all your shit, in between dancing an assumed 1 unit trying to melee them.

[corncobman]

I think with Fire Dragons, it's a combination of things:

high health
armour type
Fleet of Foot
huge mass
high damage

Granted they have short range but all the rest in combination overcompensates for it.

I'm probably going to be reworking Fleet of Foot in general at some point.

How does this sound?

Fleet of Foot change to timed ability, duration 8 seconds, recharge time 45 seconds
Dark Reapers, Rangers and Fire Dragons Fleet of Foot increases speed to 20 instead of 24 (from 16)


EDIT:

Download Soulstorm version 1.2 here (http://www.filefactory.com/file/afh9865/n/SS_BalanceMod_1_2_zip) or here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2000653)

Download Dark Crusade version 1.1 here (http://www.filefactory.com/file/afh9870/n/DC_BalanceMod_1_1_zip) or here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2000619)

[Rotlung]

1.) Does the mod incoporate bugfixes (ie Maktaka's bugfix mod for stuff that isn't changed for balance purposes?)
2.) Do they work in the campaign?

[bman3k]

I think you are over nerfing Eldar a bit, we need to concentrate on the important thing. Nerfing Tau (or maybe DE, but I haven't played them so much). But seriously I think fleet of foot should last perhaps 10 seconds, with a 30 second cool down (20 seconds between bursts), that would drastically reduce their mobility yet it would still be available often enough.

[corncobman]

@Riotlung

1) yes Maktaka's Bugfix mod is included.
2) should do, the Eldar stronghold AI crash still exists as it uses the DoW Skirmish AI.

@bman3k

probably but the Eldar changes probably need to be tested in order to find good values to use.

Tau may still be overpowered, but I'm not sure what to change for them.
Dark Eldar I feel doesn't need that many changes.

[Derogator]

Nerfing Tau, eh. How about removing Infantry Heavy High armor with Improved Metallurgy for the Fire Warriors?

Other than that, you can also edit the range upgrades to be slightly lower, but that can be sensitive to some.

[dreadlord]

I think most of the ideas are quite good.

so to keep this discussion ongoing and because I was bored, I made my own adjustments ;)
I did not change that much, but simply un-nerf eldar a bit, kept the Vehicle caps for the T4 tanks (except Tau) and tweaked the necron solution.

Eldar:
Dark Reaper health reduce by 50
Fire Dragon mass reduce from 90 to 50, 55 for exarch
Avatar pop bonuses reduced to 3/3, make Avatar buildable even with full pop
Bonesinger cost increase from 45 to 50, teleport distance reduce
Ranger Infiltration requires Soul Shrine
Warp Spider health reduce significantly from 615 to 415
Enhanced Reinforced Armour research upgrades armour to heavy high
Nightwing increase damage to infantry
Fire Prism health decrease from 5285 to 4285
Webway Gate no longer counts in Annihilation
Harlequin Kiss splash damage reduce from 200 to 150
Fleet of Foot change to timed ability, duration 8 seconds, recharge time 45 seconds
Dark Reapers, Rangers and Fire Dragons Fleet of Foot changes speed to 20 instead of 24 (from 16)

Space Marines:
Sergeants build time reduce from 30 seconds to 20 seconds
Skull Probe infiltration research remove, make Skull Probe infiltrate automatically
Plasma Gun damage increase
Terminator Flamer max damage increase from 32 to 35, min damage increase from 5 to 20

Orks:
Nob Squad leader made separate from the Slugga/Shoota Nob Leader, damage improved, mass increased.
Squiggoth Big Shoota FOTM penalty reduced from 0.35 to 0.25 (25% FOTM accuracy)
Squiggoth Zzzap Gun FOTM penalty reduced from 0.6 to 0.4 (35% FOTM accuracy)

Imperial Guard:
Basilisk Eartshaker cannon slow effect, lesser effect than the whirlwind.
Assassin infiltrate automatically, remove research
Reduce Guardsmen Plasma Gun damage slightly
Guardsmen Plasma Gun damage decrease from 34/54 to 28/48
Assassin accuracy increase from 80% to 100%, damage decrease from 1100/1400 to 860/1060
Marauder bomb abilities recharge reduce by 1/2 effectiveness reduce by 1/2

Necrons:
Monolith cost reduce to 400 for the second and 600 for the third.
Get-back up squad radius increase from 20 to 30
Necron warriors health +35 per monolith addon
Tomb Spyder range weapon accuracy / damage increase

Dark Eldar:
Warrior range increase by 1
Dais of Destruction, increase dark skythe damage 400 - 500
Souls on death last longer
Souls from Slave Chamber take longer to build
Screams of the Damned soul cost increase from 60 to 80
Piercing Vision soul cost decrease from 40 to 25
Gruesome display addon detect infiltrated units
Raider cap cost reduce from 3 to 2
Reaver Jetbike reduce damage to commanders
Raven increase damage to infantry
Raven require Tier 2, Short Circuit ability require Tier 3
Hellion health reduced from 550 to 500

Tau:
Increase Greater Knarloc speed and turn rate slightly
Barracuda weapons damage spread out more evenly, total damage reduce slightly
Fire Warrior leader cap to 1 each
decrease fire warrior health - 10
increased skyray rate of fire 5 -> 6
decrease firewarrior dmg upgrade 30% to 25%
Hammerhead cap cost increased from 3 to 4
Krootox cap cost increased from 3 to 4

Chaos:
Decrease Hell Talon health by 500
Cultist Grenade Launcher set up time
Chaos Marine Infiltration move to tier 4
Plasma Gun damage decrease
Bloodthirster regenerates health in combat instead of only in melee
Bloodthirster damage to buildings reduced significantly

Sisters of Battle:
Servitor Sabotage require tier 2
Immolator build time reduce from 55 to 35 seconds
Lightning Fighter increase damage to heavy infantry

[phoenixzs]

Why is plasma gun damage for IG guardsmen reduced?They already die horribly fast and they cost tons to arm not to mention the time.

I didn"t see something overpowered with guardsmen plasma the way it was=> good damage on a fragile platform.

I wish relic would have done a last balance patch.Those people turned away from their old faithfull elder son the minute the second child is born.Thats just shamefull

Keep up the good work though.

[corncobman]

You may have a point there.

I dunno, I don't really have a concrete reason for doing it I suppose. Maybe I could tweak the vehicles in some way as that's where their main strength lies.

[mlai]

Lower mass for Fire Dragons will not suddenly make them useless. That is an Eldar fanboy myth perpetuated despite its origin (WA bug) having been fixed years ago.

[corncobman]

Should I reduce the sight range of Tau Pathfinders / Devilfish?

50 seems to be a bit extreme to me.

[phoenixzs]

Should I reduce the sight range of Tau Pathfinders / Devilfish?

50 seems to be a bit extreme to me.

But there is a strategy revolving around it.In its current in this patch if the Tau was alright it wouldn"t be such a big thing.

And secondly devilfish is very fragile if it cant spot the enemy headon it would be conserved tuna fish in no minutes :).

[Orgad_E]

Lower mass for Fire Dragons will not suddenly make them useless. That is an Eldar fanboy myth perpetuated despite its origin (WA bug) having been fixed years ago.

so let me get this straight... they werent imbalanced in WA, but they are now, because a bug which did not effect them (in wa, due to mass) is now fixed. logic anyone?

[KotCR]

SS is a very different game from WA, mind.
For example, you won't get Hellfire spammed in SS, but it was a popular thing to do in WA
(in SS you get Vyper spam instead, which does exactly the same thing, but is cheaper and more mobile :p).

[Maktaka]

so let me get this straight... they werent imbalanced in WA, but they are now, because a bug which did not effect them (in wa, due to mass) is now fixed. logic anyone?No, that's not at all what he's talking about. In Winter Assault Fire Dragons were bugged and tended to ignore manual attack orders or units that were within range. This meant they had to spend an inordinate amount of time under enemy fire before they'd finally figure out they needed to shoot at enemy targets. To compensate, Relic made them impossible to knock down before they finally fixed the bug. However, once the bug was fixed, their mass was not restored, leaving us with the perfectly deadly but still unshakable Fire Dragons we have today.

[Orgad_E]

oh thanks for clearing that out. sorry for my ignorance.

[Sesshyru]

Hum.. I thought that whole "Grav stabalizer" thing was a lil werid..

No changes to Assult Space Marines or Predator?