1 ASM squad > 2 Banshees???

[Malachi]

I thought Banshees, as dedicated, non-jump melee, were supposed to counter ASM?

So, seeing an ASM squad attacking one of my points, I rushed my two (unupgraded) Shee squads to engage. One squad was full health, the second 3/4.

They got chainjumped and both slaughtered (first down to 1 member and had to retreat, the second one properly slaughteered, as I didn't believe it could lose). By ONE ASM squad.

Am I doing something wrong? Or is it normal?

:wtf2:

[SteinerNein]

... Well, unupgraded shees aren't good against ASM! =P Now, try upgraded ones!

[Inst]

That's sort of bullshit, isn't it? They're both T1.5 units. I'd love to see shees get a buff on T1.5 power, even if that means T2 becomes weaker.

[Malachi]

Well, then WHAT is good against ASM in TIER 1?

:rant: I'm totally sick of this bullshit. I see peopple who obiously don't even know how to retreat or use cover totally rape everything with ASM/apothecary. :rant:

[SteinerNein]

Goomba stomping is getting nerfed anyways, they'll win afterwards.

Triple Guardian/Nade.

[dtitov]

What he said. Unupgraded shees will still kill nid melee pretty good however. Asm, i'd just nade them prolly. If i played eldar that is. But nades kill everything....even gens and commanders ()well of for a commander you will need about 3 but still. Throw 2 into a mass and you will not only damage commander but also kill everything)

[Aokin]

I too am finding the Assault Marines intensely problematic.

Let's say there is one squad of Assault Marines and the Apothecary. In turn I have, one upgraded Banshee unit with a Warlock, can the Banshees persist in this battle ? Should the Assault Marines take fire focus priority or the Apothecary ?

I will have to play a few games with Space Marines and Tyrannids to better understand their army development, abilities and natural strengths.

[ViS]

Goomba-Stomping isn't about the damage, it's about the knockdown and the free hits resulting from that. Chainjumping has nothing to do with ASM winning, as it's only the last jump that actually does something.

[Darkbladecr]

You need to know how to use a combination of forces, ASM will win 1v1 against Shees. But If the shees get upgraded then they will win no problem, especially when you use the War shout or whatever it is called ability

[Malachi]

Yeah well, they can dodge nades... people actually started doing this right now...

[edit:] Guess what, upgraded Shees are tier 2. Not exactly a proper counter for a tier 1 unit. :p

What "combination of forces" would you suggest, pray tell? :moefixed:

[blurrymadness]

I would have to agree nades + ranged firepower if you're having problems as Eldar. The other option is to wait til you have an upgrade, possibly you could just suppress them by letting them jump into a cannon?

As Orks I know that WAAAGHing some sluggas into ASM can work out, especially at cost, as that boost from waaagh is well... quite enjoyable.

As nids, drown them in rippers and then feed them to termagaunts near VC to knock em down continually. Alternatively and cheaper, you could suppress them with BS warriors, and let something chop em up in melee or ranged how you see fit. A hive tyrant with that stomp/poison attack (from rending claws) might work here as well, though I haven't really played much with that.


At any rate, it seems as though it's agreed that ASM are difficult to counter, especially with the Apothecary, so I'd suggest that you get used to it. The options here are to focus less heavily on banshees as your meta-game, and use them as melee support for your ranged stuff, and then ASM should be suppressed if you have covering gunfire arcs or the shees are sitting behind the squad to counter charge.

[Inst]

fast tech to t2; if they tech to ASMs they will have assault problems in T1. On the T2 level, warlock blade of kurnous is brutal against melee armies.

[Steakmancer]

Well then hit T2. The Wraithlord crushes ASM that don't have Melta Bombs and yes, upgraded HBs are better than ASM, you don't have to get T2 by the time you see a Dreadnought on the field.

I don't see what the problem is for a hard counter for a unit to be in the next tier. HBs engaging after the ASM jump with Platform or Guardian support should suffice against ASMs. Almost never will you see them hit level 3 before they reach T2, otherwise you are losing a shitload of mans.

[MeditationError]

[edit:] Guess what, upgraded Shees are tier 2. Not exactly a proper counter for a tier 1 unit. :p

What "combination of forces" would you suggest, pray tell? :moefixed:
ASMs are the single most expensive tier 1 unit. They should be very difficult to counter at tier 1.

In tier 1, with eldar, ASMs are best handled by massed guardian firepower. Grenades don't damage the squad that threw them, so if you get enough warning throwing a nade at the feet of the squad that gets jumped will help, but you'll need other squads nearby to help - you're supposed to lose to them 1 on 1.

Going to tier 2 for a stronger counter is not unreasonable. Hopefully you have better map control if they've been saving for ASMs, and it will take them time to cap points back, while you upgrade your banshees or get a wraithlord.

[SteinerNein]

ViS, didn't someone lab this and say it dealt like 50 some odd damage?

[Steakmancer]

It's really all about the knockback for the ASM, unsupported, any T1 unit will be completely destroyed by an ASM squad.

[Mullertime]

And for 550 Req (and 25 Power?) I should hope so

The important thing here is that the marine has poured a lot of valuable resources into these boys. Chuck what you've got at them and take them down. It'll deal a nasty blow to the marine player in the early Tiers

Combined fire is the way to go. Grenades make a nice mess. In addition; if you have platforms KEEP THEM A DECENT DISTANCE BACK. With luck; the marines will jump into your guardians and right into the arc of fire of the platform

[OBhave]

Man, I hope that silly ass goomba stomp knockdown will get removed entirely. So stupid that ASM are the only jump troops to have this. I mean arent big ugly orks with rockets strapped to their backs just as HEAVY as Space Marines? Why don't they get the knockdown too then.

Plus it's ultra-annoying when the ASM didn't all jump at the same time, then they get more than one knockback ... whee!!

Not to mention when a smart SM player uses more than one ASM squad to chain-stun all your infantry... if that fucking knockdown isn't getting removed then at least lower the god damn AoE from it's current half a mile radius. :rant:


P.S. and of course we can talk about lowering ASM cost to compensate for losing this ability... I just want it out of the damn game! Along with all the other imba silly knockdown-spamming.

[ViS]

ViS, didn't someone lab this and say it dealt like 50 some odd damage?

Something like that. Whatever the result was, it was negligible.


... and yes, upgraded HBs are better than ASM...

wut

[Dexter099]

I ahev esperimented with a double ASM squad + apothecary, and they destroyed everything. Especially with the unbalanced Apothecary recharge healing ability and make it better wargear thingy.

Nids can counter ASMs if you know what you're doing.

[Inst]

Eldar can counter ASMs with shees, blade of kurnous, 2:1 cost ratio in WS, nades, levitation field, etc...

ASMs are too hard to counter, but they're not uncounterable.

[Mrguyisme]

What meditationerror said.

ASM are power units no doubt about it but mass ranged units give them a lot of problems. Its a delicate thing really, charging in with them will most certainly equate to them getting killed but using a combo of ranged support and over a wall jump makes these guys monsters.

PS
Losing a squad is extremely devastating and unless you can claim an equal victory it really sets you back 550req 25 power

[Malachi]

upgraded HBs are better than ASM, you don't have to get T2 by the time you see a Dreadnought on the field.What part of "upgraded Banshees are T2" didn't you understand?


And for 550 Req (and 25 Power?) I should hope so

The important thing here is that the marine has poured a lot of valuable resources into these boys. Chuck what you've got at them and take them down. It'll deal a nasty blow to the marine player in the early TiersWE're discussing the counter FOR COST, so obviously I did take to my consideration how "lot of valuable resources" the marine has put into these boys. Guess what, two banshee squads are FAR MORE EXPENSIVE.

[Octopus Rex]

Not really commenting on whether the balance is right or not, but you would think that 800:40 points worth (or rather 700:35 as one was 3/4 strength) of melee trooper would beat 550:25 points worth.


ASM will win 1v1 against SheesHe's not talking about 1v1, he's talking about 1 ASMv 2Shees.

[Nanolathe]

I mean arent big ugly orks with rockets strapped to their backs just as HEAVY as Space Marines?Nope, not by a long shot.

A fully kitted up Space Marine might weigh anywhere between 1 and 1.5 tons. Think about it, they have a mini nuclear fission reactor, Plate armour in many ways is equal to that of a tank... filled with servos, life support systems and electronics, are 8-9 foot tall and finally have increased bone and muscle density far beyond that of even the largest "human" body builder.

An Ork with some crude 'Rokkit' on his back... weighing as much as all that?
I highly doubt it.

On Topic:
2 Banshee squads should kill 1 ASM squad. That they can't is just ridiculous.

[Chris]

Orks in the fluff (at least the last editions of fluff I bothered to read) are supposed to physically match a space marine in strength and stature in power armour. I mean they can cut through power armour with basic edged weapons. Not chain-weapons, not power-weapons. Just standard axes. Those mothers are going to have one hell of a musculature/skeletal structure. I wouldn't be surprised if an Ork weighed very similar to a space marine.

[Energizer Bunny]

ASM are probably too tough at the moment, but their cost does justify them being the best T1 unit. If banshees could match them toe to toe then banshees should cost as much as them. If SM are pumping out a lot of ASM squads in T1 then they're burning an awful lot of req doing it. There's also a delay getting the first ASM squad out while 25 power is obtained, during which the SM player is going to be massing req for the ASM's - you can push very hard at this point as you are only likely to be up against hero + scouts. If you see a HW squad then its going to be quite a while before those ASM's appear.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Most races will need to gang up on the ASMs with ranged firepower while somehow keeping the ASM target alive.

Scout Shotguns and Techmarine w/ Plasma Gun work pretty well. Ideally using Tacs as bait.

Warlock w/ Warp Throw is a good one. Farseer with Guide also nice.

Warriors+Termagaunts seem to work alright. Termagaunts have low firepower but they have that damage increase effect. Lictor Suppression claws, Tyrant Charge/Improved Synapse/Rending Claws as well. Not sure about Ravener but I imagine a ranged upgrade+burrow could do it.

Heavy weapons teams work for all races but you need to set them up so that the enemy doesnt know they are there. Ideally they should also have a clear field of fire so they suppress quickly.

[durecellrabbit]

How do banshees do if you hold the second one back for a bit to avoid a jump?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

That will help quite a bit.

[Acanthor]

Barring Banshee's though ASM eat up every unit Eldar have! Guardians die instanly (nade to the feet can combat this sometimes but I have hopes that friendly fire is instated for the nades), WS die even faster if possible, and the melta-bombs mean they're even valuable against vehicles. I think SM definitely need some work. You know when devastators and ASM are more essential then tac marines something is wrong.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

A Guardian and Shuricannon can beat an ASM squad for cost with proper play. Unless the ASMs double jump. But that's getting nerfed.

[troglodytejb]

I'd rather have seen this thread in strategy with a question about how T1 eldar deal with ASMs than a thread in balance about how they beat two Banshees, but w/e. Just a little asinine to complain about how one side's brokenly OP unit is MORE broken and OP than another side's...

Anyway, the best solution to ASMs is guardians + fleet. They jump on one guardian squad, fleet them immediately. Start trying to kite the ASMs. You'll lose a lot of health and a lot of men from the kiting squad, but it generally distracts the ASM player enough that you can hit them with concentrated fire from other Guardian squads. Until that damage nerf comes in, Guards do FAR too much damage and it's pretty easy to punish an ASM squad.

As for meeting them in melee, no. Right now, ASMs are the dark overlords of melee; nothing but Nobs are gonna handily beat them. Finding other ways to deal with them is the chief skill in playing against space marines.

[Sesshyru]

I know for a fact that Nobs weight is greater than Tacs, and that ASM are heavier than TAC.. And by Nob I mean the Nob stormboy leader sargent thing. But if you bring Nobs into this, you have to bring in termies... and their weight is.. lol..

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Nob Stormboy actually knocks down on his charge move.

Tac Marines will defeat ASMs in melee once they get ATSKNF.

[Sesshyru]

What is ATSKNF?

Just be glad that these marines we are playing with arent anywhere near the Space Marines in the Fluff.. Legends of 1 marine guarding whole planets... lol xD...

[troglodytejb]

What is ATSKNF?

And They Shall Know No Fear

[OBhave]

Remove ASM goomba knockdown and then lower their cost or hell even buff their fighting strength, or hell maybe BOTH I don't even fucking care anymore! Just get that silly shit out of the game! And besides it makes the fluff cry horribly because they're not even jumping to travel they're just being spammed and then jumping up and down for the heck of it to goomba stomp.


GET THIS MARIO BROS SHIT OUT OF MY WH40K!!!

Pretty please!


P.S. Regarding the ASM-Stormboys weight debate ... keep in mind that:

A) Orks have ridiculous muscle and bone density... hell, even their skin is thick and dense.

B) Someone pointed out their rockets being crude... well that just means they're even heavier than proper, efficient technology!

C) A stormboy squad has 5 members, ASM 3.

A stormboy squad should at least match an ASM squad in weight.

[Malachi]

ASM are probably too tough at the moment, but their cost does justify them being the best T1 unit. If banshees could match them toe to toe then banshees should cost as much as them.Dude, did you actually even read the thread topic? WE're talking counters for cost, and 2 Banshees against 1 ASM. :banghead:

[streak]

Don't forget later on the shees will utterly rape vehicles, the ASMs will not.

[Energizer Bunny]

Malachi: It was a response to some of the posts made further down in the thread. Not all posts in a thread have to be in response only to your original post.

For the record I did discuss potential counters for ASM. If all you wanted to talk about was the balance between Shees and ASM you need to state as much at the beginning.

[Malachi]

Ok, sorry if i overreacted. Thought it was another one of these "they're ok 'cause they cost soo muuuch" posts.

Wonder how's the Shee/ASM duel after all the nerfs.

[Marvin49]

OK, Count me as another pissed Eldar player.

Ya Wanna know whats really bad? My friends and I started a private game and I took an unupgraded Banshee Squad against an unupgraded Space Marine Tac Squad. I lost one Banshee on the way into HtH. IN HtH, the Tac squad stayed in battle (didn't run) and KILLED the remaining 4 Banshees without sustaining a casualty.

Thats one-on-one in a HTH battle situation....Banshees got OWNED.

Additionally....global Damage was lowered but Walker HP were not. Additionally, their power weapons now to .15% of their normal damage to walkers compared to the .25% they used to do. Add that up...Banshees are USELESS against Walkers now.

OK you say...boo-hoo...don't use them against Walkers or Vehicles. Use "Combined Arms. OK, if I can't take down freakin Tactical Marines with Banshees, what the hell DO I use them for? Addiationally, and I dunno if anyone else has seen this, but it looks like its not only the range of the Banshee mask that was lowered, the DURATION of the Suppression appears to have been lowered DRAMATICALLY as well. I think it lasted all of about half a second...and they DID NOT Fall Back.

So while this whole thing sounds like a whine (and admittedly it is to large extent), my real problem here is that I can't use "Combined Arms" because ALL of the units now SUCK. HARD.

Eldar are supposed to strike fast, Carry a BIG stick, and die quickly.

Instead they Strike kinda fast, carry a twig, and die EVEN FASTER.

Lame.

I know there is more time for patches, but if this doesn't get fixed by release, I'm not buying this game.

[Nahrix]

I have to go with Marvin. There is a very good reason why Eldar players sound whiny right now.

Banshees can't do anything, against anyone. They're not even worth purchasing. All other units were nerfed so hard that unit-for-unit, there is nothing that can beat anything.

The tactical combined-arms approach is very valid, but an equal-value combined-arms attack against Eldar will always result in the Eldar losing the skirmish.

The only way to win is to:

a) Have more units (a total cost value much greater than the opponents')
b) Get lucky / hope that your enemy is far less skilled than you are.
c) Get lucky / hope your opponent isn't paying attention to your attack.
d) Stop playing Eldar

I am an above-average (top 100) player with a diverse and dynamic tactical arsenal, and I'm getting pwned by noobs who just group-select their units and right-click on mine.

[LandShark]

well, first i think you should use an equal amount of req in these cases.

i know a banshee doesnt cost 500 req. so why would banshees be able to beat a 500 req tactical squad in melee, when they are designed to be good in melee and ranged.

Put together a 500 req fighting force and then attack a tactical squad.

The same applies for ASM.

everyone bitches about how tough SM are, well when your units cost so damn much, and each loss is about the same as another race losing 3-4 units.

[Galain]

Well the thing is, Tacs aren't a dedicatet melee squad. Banshees are, and still loses to a ranged squad. And that "combined cost" doesen't apply in most cases. A Tyranid Warrior Squad can take down a Fire Prism in mere seconds. The Warrior squad costs 400/15- Glances(don't know the price on that one) and the Fire Prism costs 450/135.

Should the Fire Prism win over Warriors? No, because Warriors is an Anti-Vehicle squad when uppgraded. The same applies to Banshees. They are a counter to ranged squads and shold take them down with ease(unless the get gunned down appraching them :P)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

They lost against a ranged squad after taking a bunch of shots on the way in. Losing even 1 banshee implies the others took quite a bit of damage... I would expect 4 banshees at half health to lose in melee to tacs.

Still, I was of the opinion that tacs were fine before the patch... so maybe the extra hp is a bridge too far for banshees.

[Spekkio]

Tacs cost 500 req, ASM cost even more. Shees cost something like 400, and GU cost 270.

Seriously, there should be no issue outsquadding the SM player drastically. Additionally, it should be relatively easy for the Eldar player to obtain map control in the early game if the SM player goes for a Tac squad because there's nothing stopping the Eldar player from ninja-capping the whole map.

Tacs may not be dedicated melee, but they're not dedicated shooters like in DoW 1. They have utility in everything, and you shouldn't expect a 400 req squad that's down one member to take on a 500 req squad by itself.

Also, use Rangers. You can snipe off some tacs while the shees rush in or use them to suppress. Or you can use a GU squad for support. Or a hero. Or friggin anything else on the field that has its thumb up its ass while you're battling an army 1/2 the size of yours by only employing a 1:1 attack ratio.

[Marvin49]

I keep hearing people say..."but marines are more expensive so they should win".

Is that how it works?

Whomever has more points in the encounter should win everytime? Cool, forget tactics, just throw more points at'em.

I'm sorry, but a DEDICATED HTH unit should at leased CAUSE ONE CASUALTY against a balanced unit, even if the price diff is 500-400.

Not only did the 'Shees lose, THEY DIDN'T KILL A SINGLE MARINE.

Anyone who really thinks that the Banshees didn't get the shaft either hasn't played the eldar very much or is just tired of losing to them.

Look, the Banshees WERE OVERPOWERED. Thats a fact that I won't dispute, but they got EIGHT Separate Nerfs. Only one or 2 of them would have done the trick.

1) Less damage
2) Less speed
3) No Knockdown
4) Power Weapons downgraded Vs. Vehicles (and with less damage this one is a doublewhammy)
5) More expensive Exarch
6) Reduced Banshee Scream Range
7) Reduced Suppression Duration
8) Cannot Suppress when opponent Fall Back

So...until there is a resionable patch out for the Eldar, you'll find me playing 'Nids.

Bottom Line, the Eldar are now broken and unplayable.

[Spekkio]

Shees will beat tacs 1v1; they will not beat asm 1v1. They probably should do a little more damage to the ASM in 1v1 situations, but they shouldn't win.

[Nanolathe]

I find it very odd that my friend has been playing Eldar solidly since release and he HATED Banshees... He just didn't and doesn't like using them. We still won 3/4 of the games we played. I've never used ASMs and still won 100% of the games I played as a Marine. (I've played more games as a 'Nid now though)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Played a bit of post patch eldar. The banshees do seem weak in T1...did they get the 10% hp reduction?

[Inst]

Yes. TDS: The trick with new banshees is that you have to mass banshees, and use a hero that protects against their weaknesses; for example, conceal on warlock.

[Nahrix]

Ah, this is worthless. What's the point is getting aggravated over a game?

Preorder canceled.

[Tarneeto]

ASM should cost 700 req or get nurfs - then im fine.
they just own too much...

[brokengamegg]

ASM need to be toned down. increasing cost will not solve any problem.

if their potency remains the same it will be unfair to other teams who cannot field a quality army.

[Dux]

ASM are fine right now after HP and jump nerfs. Banshees are also fine. All is working as intended.

[Spekkio]

I somewhat disagree. I think that shees should do more than 50% damage to ASM w/ no members lost in t1, and the fact that an ASM + sarge can beat shees + exarch + shout* without jumping is borderline absurd.

However, ASM should be > shees in t1, just not >>>.

*Depends on how soon the Exarch bites the dust.

[LandShark]

make sure you are using fleet of foot, it provides a slight damage resistance boost.

[Chaos!!!]

FoF doesn't help. I just find it odd that a squad of generalist assault marines can slaughter a full two squads of melee-specialist banshees wielding power weapons even after warshout.

Good job Relic!

[Dux]

They can't, Chaos. That's just plain wrong. Nine times out of 10, fully upgraded 'Shees will beat fully upgraded ASMs of the same level if they use Warshout early enough. Two 'Shee squads will dominate one ASM squad. If you really lost two Shees to one ASM, then you must have been taking fire from elsewhere.

[LandShark]

not possible chaos, and fleet of foot does help.

[Chaos!!!]

Very bad sarcasm on my part, I confess. I'm having far too much fun with this brownie swirl ice cream.

[LandShark]

also, why exactly do you consider asms generalist troops? but banshees melee specialist?

[Chaos!!!]

That part had a little veracity in that Space Marines as a whole are based on generalist units. They really don't specialize in any area, but they can gear their units to be more effective in the role they need filled. Assault Marines, while melee units, still have AV capability and are highly adaptable. They have high mobility, can compromise terrain and are great for rounding out a Space Marine force. Banshees, while useful, are effective dependent on the terrain and as of current have no AV capability save against transports (at best: they can be kited and shot like nobody's business). Sure they have suppression, but its geared to emphasize their melee abilities.

Not saying they should rape the ASMs. Not even saying they should win by a massive margin. I'm not even saying they should be able to take a crapload of damage. However, their power weapons (more like rubber inflatables) are only really effective against the lightest of units, and given their supposed agility, they seem rather slow and inept at dodging much of anything.

[Malachi]

ASM are fine right now after HP and jump nerfs. Banshees are also fine. All is working as intended.Working as intended meaning here: SM being the best easymode race always?

Dude, ASM beat unupgraded banshees 1:2 and can stand toe to toe to upgraded ones, which means they beat them for cost.

[edit:]On top on that, they can jump, which gives them more functionality than pure "melee specialist" of the Banshees. They hard counter heavy weapons, and also Rangers/Snipers, while Shees don't.

[Spekkio]

That's why I said that ASM should be > shees t1, but win with 1-2 members left @ ~20% health. In t2, same applies -- the margin for shees beating ASM should be increased a bit if shees shout and ASM don't jump, but ASM + sarge should still be better than one shee + exarch straight up.

[Inst]

Based on pure cost perspective, 1 ASM squad should defeat 1 banshee squad with 48% health remaining.

[Spekkio]

How the hell do you get that? ASM don't cost 50% more than shees, and they can jump.

[n00854180t]

'Shees don't beat Tacs 1v1 (even assuming they get into melee without taking any damage), not by a long shot. Tacs can typically take down an entire squad of 'shees in melee with only 1-2 casualties now. Before the patch they may have been able to take a Tac squad 1v1, but after the patch, there is no way in hell that's true. Anyone that claims this IMO hasn't ever tried it. It doesn't work, 'shees now are very much not worth the cost, and can't even really fulfill their role properly, except against the weakest units in the game (they ARE effective against unupgraded scouts, assuming the scouts don't have/use 'nades, in which case they lose there too).

I have to agree with others here that Eldar, given the huge amount of double-whammy nerfs that every unit has taken in addition to the global ranged nerf, are broken and unplayable (it's still possible to win, it's just not very likely if you're up against a competent player). In team games, Eldar are still somewhat useful for capping things and harassment, but other than that.... They suck.


Based on pure cost perspective, 1 ASM squad should defeat 1 banshee squad with 48% health remaining.So how should 2 unupgraded 'shee squads fare against 1 ASM squad? They definitely can't hold their own in that matchup as it is. Yet they still cost a lot more points than the ASM (two 'shee squads, that is).

I think as it is, for cost the Eldar have the crappiest units available. Almost every unit was hit by multiple nerfs *in addition* to the global ranged nerfs. I guess the answer is just to never play Eldar, switch to 'nids or Orks, and use the imba VC or broken Kommando Nob HQ instagib, respectively. They should probably just remove Eldar completely, if this trend is going to continue of exclusively nerfing them into oblivion while buffing other armies' units.

[Inst]

If you cost x of a unit, you should be x^2 as effective (twice the health, twice the damage). 550/400 is something like 28% difference, or shees are 72% as expensive as a ASM squad. squared, it should be 52% as effective as a ASM squad.

To counter right now, I'm making sure that everytime I use shees, I use 2 squads. 1 squad is just asking for a beating, especially without ethereal slash or levitation blade. But it's not ASMs that really worry me to be honest, it's shotgun scouts, which rape the fuck out of my shees.

[n00854180t]

@Inst, okay, but how about the fact that 2 squads of shees get raped by a single squad of ASM? Even if they are upgraded (since it's mostly the Mario Bros.-esque constant knockdown that makes them difficult to kill with even two squads of shees).

Just to be clear, I'm asking why (according to your cost/effectiveness equation) two squads of shees can't beat a single squad of ASM?

[Inst]

In my experience I've managed to defeat 1 ASm squad with 2 shee squads, although Ethereal Slash was involved.

[n00854180t]

Hrm. I'm sure it's possible. I imagine 2 shees + guardian squad with 'nades could do it too. But then you're talking about what? 550/25 vs. (330/10 + (400/15 * 2)) = 1130/40. Why exactly should Eldar have to spend >2x as many resources to take down one squad?