Is it just me or does plasma = insta win?

[Alpha_1]

So they upped the damage in the patch and so far I have seen 3 dreads die to one single plasma shot and now my orks are insta dead to one shot even with nobs. So what the hell?

I can understand an increase of damage to a degree but that much?

BTW I have a recording with the 3 dreads dying to the single plasma shot so...

[Saias]

i was using plasma tactical marines extensively today, 3 full squads of tacticals attacking 1 dread took off about 50hp/sec.

against infantry it's hardly 1shot kills, they're highish damage but they're not amazing.

[Kratos]

I can hardly believe that story.

[Alpha_1]

I can provide a replay SHOWING the plasma taking out 3 dreads in one shot.

[Goobers]

Unless its the Plasma Cannon, which has absolutely no hope in hell of actually hitting anything sauntering along at a snails pace.

And it would help if your clarified what your babbling on about, Tac Plasma, Plasma Cannon Devs, or the big arse plasma guns on the Battle Barge.

[BeFlat]

replay or it didnt happen....

[Kratos]

I saw one scout squad take out terminators (which ahd around 100 hp left), so I propose a scout nerf.

Please tell the whole story, hp state of all the untis and what exactly happend alpha.

[Saias]

Alpha_1, feel free to link to that replay then.

[Inst]

Plascan and Plasmarines are two different units. Smart move making it so that two powerful units have the same slang name.

[Boomstar]

Plasma cannons are ridiculous now yes.

[Chaos!!!]

I don't see why molten blasts of plasma energy that melt just about anything they touch should be weak. Especially in an artillery unit that can't hit much of anything that moves. They don't 1-shot anything and they're 400 req at tier 2.

Except rippers.

And gaunts.

But overall, those are mean't to die anyway.

[Chris]

3 dreads dead in 1 shot? Was this plasma cannon level 20? Were the dreads actually all on 30 hitpoints? Was it in fact an eldritch storm? I had a mirror match recently and I tried using a plasma cannon, couldn't do fuck all to dreadnoughts without the power fist stun.

[Weavern]

Chris the plasma devs, do insane damage. Two plasma dev shots will virtually take down any vehicle. In addition it does splash, so it is concieveable that three dreads got taken out.

[Chaos!!!]

3 dreads dead in 1 shot? Was this plasma cannon level 20? Were the dreads actually all on 30 hitpoints? Was it in fact an eldritch storm? I had a mirror match recently and I tried using a plasma cannon, couldn't do fuck all to dreadnoughts without the power fist stun.

This man speaks the troof.

Oddly enough I'm advocating for a Space Marine weapon... as an Eldar player.

Little-known fact.

Another little-known fact is that kittens are fuzzy.

Flame on.

[Pellucid]

Unless its the Plasma Cannon, which has absolutely no hope in hell of actually hitting anything sauntering along at a snails pace.I had a situation with a plasma cannon team in a 3v3 I was playing. My Wraithlord was getting hammered by his Dread. I was sure I was screwed when his plasma cannon began setting up in the back and there was no way I could get out of range in time. The plasma cannon charges up, fires, I cringe and...he hits his own Dreadnaught in the back, destroying it. Before the cannon team could charge for another shot, my Wraithlord was out of range with 80 HP left.

[Troubleshooter]

If Plascans are that good.. I am just going to build them from now on. The game is down right scary over TS 20.

[Latias418]

Plascan and Plasmarines are two different units. Smart move making it so that two powerful units have the same slang name.

I'm not entirely sure why you would even call plasmarines 'plasma'. Or plasdevs, for that matter. Two WEAPONS with the same slang - the fault is entirely on TC.

[Killer Of Many]

I saw a sniper instantly kill a commander once. I won't say how it happened, how much hp, what kind of sniper[ranger or scout sniper], any of the circumstances but I readily iterate that snipers are ridiculously overpowered. Guess that's how we should make threads for now on

[SteinerNein]

This one time, my plasma cannon devastator squad round housed a Tyranid Carnifex and shot it across the map into a Hive Tyrant subsequently killing both.

Also, Chuck Norris was somehow involved in the next scene where my dev squad 'walker Texas Ranger' five predators, four nob squads, three deff dreads, two venerable dreads, and a partridge in a pear tree.

But in all seriousness, they really can't gib that many but if the enemy has them clustered they will all take massive AE damage. It takes about 4 shots to down any given walker. At times during team games, if you're facing three bored SM players prepare to get plasma cannoned in ... with hilarious results .

[Inst]

I

I'm wondering what counters plasdev fortifications, with overlapping fire covering each plasdev with more plasdev fire.

[glenn3e]

Why the heck is anyone bunching up 3 dreads together? He's just asking to be killed by AOE. The plasmacan would take out 20 dreads like that in the same time it takes to take out one.

[SteinerNein]

Inst,

Nothing. =P You're also forgetting the Razorback and hero(s)!

[Inst]

Interlocking D-Cannons?

[Flufd]

7 mins 30 centre VP

I'd say that's pretty overpowered, or maybe bad luck.

http://rapidshare.com/files/194986875/tomoneshotted.rec.html

[Ryouichi]

Plasdevs are pretty beast. Dealt 1000 damage to my Warrior squad. Admittedly my Warrior squad was stopping to shoot at a different squad and got blasted, but ONE-THOUSAND damage... Wow. Pre-patch, it took 2 blasts to obliterate a 475 hp, static HBdev squad.

[Alpha_1]

Well I only have a recording of the dreads now. Perhaps someone can answer the question of how far a plasma dev squad is supposed to be able to shoot a round? I think that may be more of the problem than the damage, if they aren't supposed to shoot 1/3 to 1/2 the distance of a map (3v3 map btw) perhaps that is the real issue.

I've looked at the dread kill and they were all under 260 health however the shot was a pretty long one so it makes me wonder, if anyone wants to provide an email address to me in PM I will send you the zipped recording. I'm not going to waste time on setting up an account somewhere to host the file. I'm not an internet junkie, I go online to play games and only post here, and that is pretty much it.

[Troubleshooter]

Post it in the battle archives Alpha.

http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=130

FWIW, I just tested Plasdev spam vs. orks. 2 Plasma shots on rear armor of a buggy kills it.

2 plasma shots on its front armor will cripple it.

Hitting with 2 plasma shots is much harder than you think.

Plasma-devs are about as good at AV as MLs, with longer range, but crappy accuracy and that nasty set up time.

Plasma-devs seem to be good only at doing things that other units do - clearing buildings and mopping up actions.

[YellowJello]

Yeah, plasma devs are utter bullshit right now.

Just played a game where some guy used them with a razorback after I had controlled a fair chunk of the map, he literally just camped outside my base with 2-3 squads.


1 squad will one shot a warrior squad.

Can't believe people moan about venom cannons that are actually more expensive than devs when this shit goes on.

[Chris]

I have to wonder what the hell you were doing to get to the point where the space marine could afford 3 plasma squads to camp outside your base. I mean by that point you should have pretty much the entire map locked down with a massive econ/VP advantage.

[YellowJello]

Game was up for grabs at the start, both controlled similar amounts.

Tier 2 he did nothing but camp at the point directly outside both bases on the jungle map, then came the razorback with one dev squad, then 2, then 3.

[Chris]

Well there's your problem right there. You should have no trouble controlling more than 50% of the map with tyranids, especially now that rippers are effectively invulnerable.

[YellowJello]

Doesn't change the fact they one shot warrior squads.

[4Servant]

Plasma Hb's are slow cant get map control when you get them =/, I still prefer ASM and scouts/razerback and mb 1 plasma thing for cover.

[Pocktio]

Did plasa cannons got a damage boost from the patch?

In the changelog the damage to plasma guns is under tacs.

If not then they've been 'imba' to begin with.

[durecellrabbit]

Plasma Devs were starting to get popular in team games before the patch. I came across a few 3 SM arranged teams using them.

[alisbin]

yellow, a plasma devs are some of most inaccurate weapons in the game and their projectile is slow, if you get in the way of it then thats your own damn fault, as for whining about warriors, go elsewhere, the damn adrenal warrior do massive damage with no setup and high maneuverability.
on topic: yes plasma cannon is very powerful, but its hugely difficult to use (see above for reasons) and can die REAL fast. don't think they got a damage boost in the patch pock, i think they were just left alone (which with the general range nerf and hp nerf counts as buff for'em). i'm fine with it frankly, SM needs SOMETHING that can take out masses of nids even if its really unlikely to hit...

[Poseidal]

I've just played a game with plasma devs, they seem to one shot anything short of a vehicle at the moment. The damage doesn't seem right for something T2.

[Zeroed55]

Yeah, only problem is their setup time is abysmal - Any melee infantry that manages to get in close combat range will almost always slaughter your poor plasma team in the open.

[Chris]

I'm not sure of the details but it looks like ALL plasma weapons may have gotten buffed, probably by mistake. This is why venom cannons are now uber, because they are listed as plasma weapons in the game files. Damage is definitely excessive now, but the OP is still pure hyperbole.

[daemonn789]

I played for about 6 hours yesterday... I hadn't played so much since the patch until yesterday. I played SM/Eldar/Nids/Orks throughout the day.

Plasma Devs were seen in every game (because there isn't ever a game in which someone isn't playing SM...).

Plasma Devs effectively 1 shot infantry now. Here's a short list of what I personally noticed getting totally evaporated in 1 shot.

Tyranids
Rippers
Gaunts
Warriors
Zoanthrope
Lictor
And did 3/4 hp damage to a Ravener Squad

Eldar
All heavy weapons platforms
Guardians
Rangers
Banshees
Warp Spiders

Orks
Shootas
Sluggas
Lootas
Stik Bommas
Storm Boyz

SM
Scouts


I've noticed most games end up with Plasma Dev spam. If we are doing well in the beginning, they usually can set up far enough away so they can fire on the VPs and slowly leap frog moving up...

Like on Capitol Spire, if they have the north eastern starting spawn, they line them up across the way, on their base side and they can fire into the VP. Then they do similar things across the whole board.

I'm not saying it's not counterable, but the strength of the plasma devs is ridiculous. They 1 shot most infantry units if it's a good shot and they are great at killing vehicles. All a SM player has to do is set these guys way back and march in some scouts or even dreads and watch the hilarity ensue.

I watched as a mob of my nids, who were swarming into mid on Capitol Spire, trying to retake the VP got simultaneously shot by 4 plasma devs. More than half of my 8 or so squads (containing warriors and gaunts) was instantly killed on the first volley. Meanwhile those plasma devs sat all nice and cozy on their base side with the base turrets covering them should anything get across...

For only 400 Req these guys are worth their weight in gold.

[Zeroed55]

What the -hell- were you doing bunching up 'eight or so squads' on the VP in the first place?

[daemonn789]

What the -hell- were you doing bunching up 'eight or so squads' on the VP in the first place?

Is this a troll post?

Do you REALLY think I had my nids sqauds all standing on the VP?

No. But nids usually move as a swarm, as I was moving them around the central area, near the VP, is when they started firing plasma.

Please, think before you post. :rant:

[Pocktio]

No, it wasn't a troll post. You bunch up units and you're going to suffer at the hands of AoE fire. Seeing as you said you had your nids all on the point I'd say that was a valid post. In fact most of your balance posts seem to centre around whining that you did something wrong and got your arse handed to you.

However I'll cede to you the point plasmadevs are potent. Then again they're not labelled as anti-vehicle, they're an anti-everything. Have you tried using heroes against them? I assume heroes don't get instagibs. Fleshhooks, tunnels, drop pods, mekboy teleport, ws teleport all sorts of counters there. You say plasmadev spam is imba but a mix of plasmadevs and other units would be more potent as they will be more able to counter highly mobile units so overally yeah - pdevs shank shit but only if you bunch up or try to mass them.

:s

[Poseidal]

Fleshhooks, tunnels, drop pods, mekboy teleport, ws teleport all sorts of counters there.
I tried using WS teleport to beat them once, and got them behind one plasma dev squad only to be one shot by another one out of my visual range (so all I saw was the plasma ball coming in, which they couldn't run from and jump was on cooldown). The Falcon I sent in with them ended up half dead too.

[daemonn789]

No, it wasn't a troll post. You bunch up units and you're going to suffer at the hands of AoE fire. Seeing as you said you had your nids all on the point I'd say that was a valid post. In fact most of your balance posts seem to centre around whining that you did something wrong and got your arse handed to you.

However I'll cede to you the point plasmadevs are potent. Then again they're not labelled as anti-vehicle, they're an anti-everything. Have you tried using heroes against them? I assume heroes don't get instagibs. Fleshhooks, tunnels, drop pods, mekboy teleport, ws teleport all sorts of counters there. You say plasmadev spam is imba but a mix of plasmadevs and other units would be more potent as they will be more able to counter highly mobile units so overally yeah - pdevs shank shit but only if you bunch up or try to mass them.

:s

Do you lack reading comprehension?

I just said I DIDN'T HAVE MY UNITS ALL CLUSTERED ON THE VP.

Read before you post, SERIOUSLY!

[Pocktio]

mob of my nids, who were swarming into mid on Capitol Spire, trying to retake the VP got simultaneously

Mob
Swarming in one place
Trying to all go for the VP

I did read.

[Poseidal]

Also, how does it compare with the D-Cannon platform?

The D-Cannon is more fragile (Guardians as opposed to SM) and is more expensive (T3, power cost). Does it have the same one-shot power as the Plasma cannon? If not, we can only assume the Plasma cannon damage is a bug as it's outperforming a T3 equivalent (albeit in another army, but still).

[daemonn789]

Mob
Swarming in one place
Trying to all go for the VP

I did read.

Wait wait wait...

1. 'Nids, are primarily a swarm army.

2. I do not send all units on to the VP, only 1 while the rest set up a defensive position.

3. The Plasma Devs were off the map, 2 screens away.

4. My units were not "bunched" but moving as any Tyranid swarm does, they need to be somewhat close to the Warriors to be effective.

5. I think you might have some kind of mental deficiency.


Also, how does it compare with the D-Cannon platform?

The D-Cannon is more fragile (Guardians as opposed to SM) and is more expensive (T3, power cost). Does it have the same one-shot power as the Plasma cannon? If not, we can only assume the Plasma cannon damage is a bug as it's outperforming a T3 equivalent (albeit in another army, but still).

No, D-Cannon does not 1 shot any units, not even T1 light infantry.


EDIT:

Pocktio, you almost caught me. I know you are trying to drag me down, so you can beat me with experience, but alas I can maintain a level head.

This thread was not about strategy to beat the Plasma, but rather, the damage out put. And it is too high.

[Noble]

Guys, lets keep this discussion calm and to the point. If things can't remain civil this thread will be locked.

[Pocktio]

I'd like to point that when it comes to threads with 'xyz' is OP I don't immediately disagree or agree. I wait so I can properly lab it and try it in different situations. In the meantime I read the posts and try to offer suggestions or alternatives to what has been said. I don't intend to disagree with what has been said but from what Daemonn posted it seemed he was suffering AoE attacks against an infantry mass so I offered alternatives.

[Dux]

If the Plasma Dev is doing more damage than the D-Cannon, that's just wrong. Relic over-buffing?

[Pocktio]

Add a power cost and rethink the buff it got pre-patch. That said people complained it was too shit then, not being able to hit anything.

[Eperschke88]

i was saying u dont need to be grouped up to be insta killed.. i play orks..and i do not swarm. i space my shit out to stop this bullshit from happening.. but i can only have so many units.. and each time a shot is fired at a unit of boyz. they die. so 270+ req each shot.. any unit shot other than nobz get insta killed . ps takes 4 shots to kill nob squad.

no other comparable unit..

D cannon is t3 costs power and has no where near the damage of plasma devs.

tank bustas barrage doesnt do the damage Pdev do. and it takes waagh.

zoanthrope cant compete either first its shity hp. second reload time is stupid. and flat out damage is less then dcannon. smaller Aoe as well.

So back on topic.. wewt..

why is a t2 unit so stupid powerfull. insta kill units. 3 shot dreads.

SM got it ez.

[daemonn789]

I'd like to point that when it comes to threads with 'xyz' is OP I don't immediately disagree or agree. I wait so I can properly lab it and try it in different situations. In the meantime I read the posts and try to offer suggestions or alternatives to what has been said. I don't intend to disagree with what has been said but from what Daemonn posted it seemed he was suffering AoE attacks against an infantry mass so I offered alternatives.

No, I was not suffering from an AoE attack that killed more than 4 squads. I know how to counter that. It was an example to show the POWER behind the Plasma Devs. That specific example I cited is a game we ended up winning.

I dropped spore mines on them and used a tunnel to counter them now that I knew they were there.

We won 500-0.

My issue was not "this is overpowered because I cannot beat it". It's that the Plasma Devs damage is stronger than... well... anything in the game right now!

They kill squads faster than an Avatar can. Even the Avatars AoE ability doesn't kill whole squads! The D-Cannon doesn't do as much damage. Carnifex's Bioplasma blast comes close, but still doesn't vaporize whole squads from full HP (Not to mention the cost difference there...).

My main point was for 400 req, the Plasma Devs are absolutely the most destructive unit based purely on cost/dmg. I am not talking strategy here, if I was, it would be in the appropriate forum.


EDIT:

On that note, going out for lunch and doing some shopping. Have a good day gents... Till later!

[SteinerNein]

Yet, like anything else they are a platform crew and have a long attack rate combined with slow moving projectile.

Yes, they're powerful but they're more or less the same as any platform squad suffering the exact same vulnerabilities.

I hate to say this, but l2p.

[Hirmetrium]

I find them worth their cost now. Perhaps a stealth buff happened, but I'd rather see the unit be useful than shit. Besides, its no different to a Zoanthrope raping the crap out of infantry. I mean, have you seen those things?

Perhaps Plasma Cannon = SM solution to tyranids.

[Ixal]

Plasma Devas can really lock down an area.
And don't count on jump troops. Many players secure their devas with a HB squad and maybe a detector scout squad.
Or worse, the devas sit inside a building. As they don't cost power its also not uncommon that a SM player has two of those squads. If you manage to CC one of them the other will get you.

This setup can basically deny you half the map in 1vs1.

[SteinerNein]

@ Hirm

I think plasma devs are an excellent solution to mid tier games, but at high tier it might not be feasible.

@ Ixal

That's the ideal setup, but there are ways around that too: For example -> ramming a razorback into the dev squad and ignore the HB you've now managed to take 2 for 1 if they don't retreat fast enough.

A single plasma dev + heavy bolter cannot take down jack unless you're retarded enough to do a frontal attack or to not figure out a slightly creative way around it (plenty). The problem is when they get 3+ Plasma Devs, but then again.. you really have to wonder how they got that many in the first place and even then that is still counterable.

Basic lesson here: Deal with Plasma Devs as one deals with Heavy Bolters.

[Ixal]

@ Hirm

I think plasma devs are an excellent solution to mid tier games, but at high tier it might not be feasible.

@ Ixal

That's the ideal setup, but there are ways around that too: For example -> ramming a razorback into the dev squad and ignore the HB you've now managed to take 2 for 1 if they don't retreat fast enough.

A single plasma dev + heavy bolter cannot take down jack unless you're retarded enough to do a frontal attack or to not figure out a slightly creative way around it (plenty). The problem is when they get 3+ Plasma Devs, but then again.. you really have to wonder how they got that many in the first place and even then that is still counterable.

Basic lesson here: Deal with Plasma Devs as one deals with Heavy Bolters.

Oh, I tried. Too bad the enemy had two plasma devas which one (two) shotted my upgraded razor. Although in that case I got surprised by the plasma.
I probably should have tried the razor again (this time flanking even more) instead of building jump troops to deal with them.
Problem is that once this setup is in place the enemy is free to concentrate on the other half of the battlefield while likely holding a larger VP/req field (See the northern 1vs1 desert map)

As for the cost, this entire setup costs only ~1200 req and 20 power (first scout is free). With the larger resource income that is quite doable.

[SteinerNein]

There is no such thing as 'locking' down an area without the majority of your army being there unless that happens to be a Carnifex and even then that is iffy.

The true cost of a plasma dev set up includes all the normal teching routes and the cost of the entirety of tier one.

From your example, a lot of information is missing and the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Furthermore, by your own admittance you made some tactical flaws. That being said, before anyone comes down with the fist of an angry god on plasma devs, I think we should investigate a bit further.

[glenn3e]

The knee is jerking...

[SteinerNein]

I hope you aren't referring to me, glenn3e =(

[Poseidal]

Basic lesson here: Deal with Plasma Devs as one deals with Heavy Bolters.
Heavy Bolters can't one-shot almost every single infantry in the game, and can't 2-3 shot every vehicle in the game.

You have to resort to much more drastic measures against the Heavy Plasma, and even then you have to execute it perfectly or wave goodbye to your unit.

The points / damage ratio is completely out of whack. Why doesn't the D-Cannon platform have the same damage? it's the same sort of unit, but more expensive and in T3. The Plasma Cannon is obviously bugged.

[SteinerNein]

Why don't you explore the full vastness of options (tactical/micro) and or strategic options when facing Plasma Devs. I will reiterate that in mid-tier games it is pretty easy to deal with plasma and I am not even sure if top tier games utilize plasma. That being said, it's just a bit more micro intensive to deal with.

As opposed to anything else in this game generally it requires superb execution in order to prevent certain disaster. Some are subtle some not so subtle.

As for your unit comparisons , that is a pretty poor method of argumentation. Army composition must be equal but the individuals units within may be unequal.

I am going to reiterate my other point: L2P; do more testing.

[Poseidal]

As for your unit comparisons , that is a pretty poor method of argumentation. Army composition must be equal but the individuals units within may be unequal.

I am going to reiterate my other point: L2P; do more testing.
I hate that argument on tabletop because it's just a phrase to justify lack of playtesting and proper balancing.

If you want to look at individual units, the D-Cannon's weaknesses are a liability in the Eldar army. In a highly mobile army that relies on FoF to outmaneuver the opponent, a single arc weapon platform hinders the role so to be a useful addition it must fill an immense damage roll.

The Plasma cannon moves at the same speed as the rest of the army, though has the same set up time and arc as the D-Cannon. As the SM army is a tough, but slower army, it inhibits it less and to fill it's role it needs to offer something that the more mobile unit [tactical marine] doesn't offer, which would be long range area of effect damage.

By all reasoning, the D-Cannon from army context, T3 and larger cost should clearly overpower the Plasma Cannon in damage. Unfortunately, this isn't the case as the Plasma Cannon currently does ~4 times the damage of the D-Cannon (the weapon stated by Relic to be 220; the Plasma Cannon was recorded do 1000HP worth of damage to Tyranid Warriors earlier in this thread).

[Sturmhaubitze]

One reason to not spam Plasma Cannons is friendly fire damage. I've accidentally killed a friendly Banshee squad, and half of another, as they got too close to a vehicle they were charging. I've also had a Plasma Cannon fire on my own marines by mistake, and the results aren't pretty. If you're lucky, no marines die, but their hit points are reduced so much that anyone can walk up and knock them down.

Though I agree that the D-Cannon should be improved if the Plasma Cannon Dev stays at its current effectiveness.

[varmcola]

No weapon in the game should be able to one-shot squads of any kind. T1 or T3, its completely counteractive to the hole "push X, save you units but give the enemy territory" playstyle that CoH came up with.

The accuracy of the plasma devs is hardly a big issue, as the splash is nearly big enough to make up for it. In my experience, once you've got 2-3 plasma devs at the same location, only the nukes will clear em out. The damage and knockback stops any advance in its tracks.

Maps in DoW 2 are so small that you cant space out suffiently, especially not on capital spire. This together with the extreme range, makes for a weapon that WILL be worth the investment if it just gets of 2-3 shots before dying, which it will in the hands of any average player.

Imo, nerf the freakin' damage or increase cost massively. You can't have a gun one-shotting squads in a game like this.

[SteinerNein]

What you hate and what you think is justification is irrelevant. Let me just point out why it's a valid argument: Unit diversity. Now whether or not people play test is a different issue which is SEPARATE from the argument. It's just that GW is lazy, and perhaps Relic is too but we will find out fairly soon(-ish). Do not confuse the two.

If you want to look at the in- oh wait, I just said we're not going to look at individual units. Plasma Cannons and D-Cannons are completely seperate entities that are in no way shape or form related. Shall I think compare a Fire Prism to a Predator or a Razorback to a Faclon? Or Banshees to ASM ? Or Rangers to scouts? etc. etc.

You make a lot of interesting assumptions. I will tell you right off the bat that you're dead wrong. Eldar and pretty much every race relies on one thing: Good tactical play. And again, you bring up non-sequitur. Even if we accept your erroneous premise that Eldar are reliant on FoF you cannot conclude that the D-Cannon must fill an immense damage roll.

If your reasoning was correct, then there wouldn't be an argument. However, as it stands you have missed a few points: 1) What is the conceptualization behind the D-Cannon? 2) What other roles might it serve? 3) What do buffs have to do with this? 4) What synergy does it have? 5) Is it meant to be an equivalent?

From what is seen of T3 , it doesn't offer anything 'stronger' but rather it increases flexibility; many people would claim that the Predator is trash and that the Razorback is superior. And many would point out that T1 units are effective at T3 thus making everything more or less equivalent. Thus, the whole T3 argument is fairly bogus ( also consider predator 450 -> tac 500+ (with upgrades) ).

That being said, plasma cannons generally fill the role of a cheap AV that isn't reliable as an AV and serves as n00b smasher.

While the D-cannon has usage in its singularity and the fact that it is a long range platform.

Again, I've faced double plasmas and then some and while annoying it is fairly easy to dislodge if you know how to maneuver. This is mainly a skill issue that is on par with the silly people who complained that turrets were OP .

A minor adjustment might be called for but anything else is just over the top.

[shiner980]

Yea the plasma devastators are pretty damn over the top at this point, in one game I was fooling around with warp spiders, since I was winning, and saw a plasma devestator squad, so I teleported behind the plasma dev squad, just to have another one open up on my 2 warp spiders. The casualties fell like this

2 casualties on one squad, 3 casualties on the other
90% lost health on the rest of the squad, extremely wounded 1st plasma dev squad, and a lot of spamming X b4 I get wtfpwned. Though it was funny that the 2nd shot completely killed his plasma dev squad and one more of my warp spiders x.x

I mean yea, they're inaccurate, and I'm sure it won't be pretty if an ally goes melee warrior spam and your plasma dev just fired into that blob, but almost instantly raping 2 squads with one shot? taking almost 400 hp off a falcon? I think that's just a bit much, especially since you may not even see the plasma dev, just the floating blue ball of doom heading towards your forces, and I'm certainly no micro god.

As for the above argument, the problem is that the plasma dev can ALSO serve as a long distance platform, and that the other unit that most identifies with this unit comes much later, costs more individually, and yet does less than a plasma cannon can do. I thought D-Cannons were pretty damn good for a damage for cost ratio, but plasma devs are something else altogether, I wish my brightlance could do what the plasma dev could

[SteinerNein]

@Shiner980

" Yeah I was just messing around and jumped behind a guy without scouting and I got owned! "

It takes two shots to wipe out a squad not one, furthermore, you're the fool who decided not to scout and see what control he or she had. Suffice to say you deserved it.

[Ixal]

Again, I've faced double plasmas and then some and while annoying it is fairly easy to dislodge if you know how to maneuver. This is mainly a skill issue that is on par with the silly people who complained that turrets were OP .


Of course first you loose two squads to discover that the enemy actually has two plasma devas. Then you might loose another squad by trying to outflank/jump them just to find out that the enemy has forseen this move.

And god forbid that the enemy actually moves his plasmas after you discover them.


@Shiner980

" Yeah I was just messing around and jumped behind a guy without scouting and I got owned! "

It takes two shots to wipe out a squad not one, furthermore, you're the fool who decided not to scout and see what control he or she had. Suffice to say you deserved it.

Wrong. A Space Marine squad dies in two hits. Most squads from other races die in one.
And considering the range of plasma you have to scout half the map (1vs1) to see if there is another one in range. All that takes precious time the enemy can use to fortify or move.

[shiner980]

I think you're missing the point here, I know that's tactically irresponsible, and in regular play that would be a mistake that wouldn't happen, but not everyone can have the tactical acumen that you may have, and the problem is that it's just far TOO effective. The cost your ally pays if you fire into a melee is horrible, the cost you pay for taking your eyes off your troops for 3 seconds = virtual death if that plasma dev is even partly supported. THAT'S the problem. It's rather low cost for how much damage it can do, supported or not. Forgive the rest of us for not having your skills, but we're here to make it enjoyable for the rest of us.

There is most certainly a reason why they reduced most weapon damage output by 15%, and that is so that battles could last longer, so that those with slightly slower reflexes can still enjoy the game. There is a point when fast is too fast, when powerful is too powerful. And this is certainly too powerful considering how cheap it is.

And Remember my description, the plasma dev squad (an SM squad) died in two hits. My squad was down just about 90% in health. Had the guy even halfheartedly supported his troops, I would've lost a massive investment

PS I had taken the whole map and he was basically trapped in his base, and turrets + plasma devs = not going in there with anything until D cannons.

[Poseidal]

What you hate and what you think is justification is irrelevant. Let me just point out why it's a valid argument: Unit diversity. Now whether or not people play test is a different issue which is SEPARATE from the argument. It's just that GW is lazy, and perhaps Relic is too but we will find out fairly soon(-ish). Do not confuse the two.
Even with unit diversity, different factions must still be balanced against each other. When a T2 unit is clearly better than a T3 unit that's more expensive, you really need to show why it's justified from the rest of the list.



You make a lot of interesting assumptions. I will tell you right off the bat that you're dead wrong. Eldar and pretty much every race relies on one thing: Good tactical play.
You are implying the other races don't require Good Tactical play to win it seems? That merely 'adequate tactical play' or worse, 'no tactical play' is good enough for the other races?

Also, if you tell me 'right off the bat', then you must show me how I am wrong rather than stating it.

That being said, plasma cannons generally fill the role of a cheap AV that isn't reliable as an AV and serves as n00b smasher.

While the D-cannon has usage in its singularity and the fact that it is a long range platform.

Missile Launcher Tacs and Assault Marines fill the role for AV with T2 upgrades and are T1 units.

Singularity is a damage (it kills...) submove and the fact that it is a long range platform is shared with two others. Not really a niche, so to speak.


1) What is the conceptualization behind the D-Cannon?
Having access to the tabletop rulebooks tell me it's a cannon that can kill anything; by utilizing warp-space to cause spacial distortions to destroy the target no matter how tough or how much armour it has. In the (more detailed) 2nd edition rules, it didn't cause damage like other weapons, it (most of the time) came up with the result 'Target is entirely destroyed'.

That is what the concept of the D-Cannon is.

2) What other roles might it serve? 3) What do buffs have to do with this? 4) What synergy does it have? 5) Is it meant to be an equivalent?
2) What else can a 'cannon' do? 3) Irrelevant to the discussion 4) You were saying it was more synergeous than I was implying; I would like to see this (and it will help my game too perhaps) 5) Maybe. If it's not, the D-Cannon must be the superior damage dealer as discussed above.

[daemonn789]

@ SteinerNein

I'm going to try and say this as nicely as possible:

You're fucking retarded.

I at NO point wanted to discuss tactics or strategy involving the Plasma Devs. Look PURELY at the damage. Yes, they do in fact 1 shot units! Stop your ignorance and go play test it!

Earlier, you said "They [Plasma Devs] have the same weaknesses as any other heavy weapons unit."

Later you said "Plasma Cannons and D-Cannons are completely separate entities that are in no way shape or form related."

Wait - isn't a D-Cannon a heavy weapon, just like the rest? Nice contradiction. So, a Plasma Cannon having higher damage than a T3 D-Cannon is justified by it being... not a heavy weapons unit?

Sorry bud, that's just wrong.

Stop playing fanboi, test a bit against the Plasma Devs, come back and then repost with your findings. You will be quite surprised at their damage.

People can argue tactics all god damn day. The whole point of this issue was to address the damage of the Plasma Dev squad. Some how, you feel the need to tell people to "Learn to play" when their squad gets 1 shotted. And your justification for that is "they didn't scout, lolz u suck!!11!"...

I'm gonna go ahead and say this: A T2 UNIT THAT COSTS 400 REQ SHOULD NOT 1 SHOT ANY SQUAD.

Focus on that part, fanboi. :awesome:

[Eperschke88]

It takes two shots to wipe out a squad not one, furthermore, you're the fool who decided not to scout and see what control he or she had. Suffice to say you deserved it.

:slow: FANBOI ALERT ! :ballchain

obviously dont want ur precious OP squad to get nurfed.

seriously if u had brains or anything other then ignorance u would see that it does insta kill units . IE ONE SHOT.

i play orks most the time. i played a few games as sm to see why the plasma dev were so goood. and how good they were..

so. i tested this with a buddy. and i ran a squad at a time vs a lone plasma dev. these are the results.. i also tested multiple units vs multiple devs. just gets worse since they both aoe. 3 sluga squads vs 2 dev = 1 slugga left with 2 boys first shot..

here are the results of the testing 1v1

ORKs
t1 <-- all one shot.
slugga
shoota
stickbomba
stormboyz
t2
tankbustas <- one shot
lootas <- one shot
deffdread <- 3 shot
truck <- 2 shot
t3
Nob squad <- 4 shots
kommando <- 1 shot!
looted pred. <- 4 shot

so my nob squad. t3 unit costing 600 req 100 eng is the only infantry i have that isnt insta killed..

bit broken huh? :banghead:

[SteinerNein]

@Eperschke88

Where is the replay then?

@Daemonn

Looking purely at damage does nothing unless it is a clear outlier.

And okay, I will concede that I contradicted myself but what does that prove? It merely proves nothing and we're back to square one.

Whether you want to discuss something or not has no bearing to the fact that weaknesses/vulnerabilities play a role in defining the capacities of a unit and the fact is most of you continue to whine about something that can be easily taken out. Perhaps, we should also then whine about grenades taking out whole squads or that some melee hits will auto kill units. Or perhaps we should do an overall comparison where x does y damage and z units get wiped out.

Better yet, I think you should l2p because I have neither trouble counter this as SM nor as Eldar and certainly not as Tyranids. The Dev teams get punished by far worse things and their damage alone often isn't even justification to build them en masse or even have more than one on the field.

You cannot have a discussion about balance without including tactics and strategy.

@ Poseidal

If we follow your logic then we'll have to buff pretty much most of T3 and as it stands T3 opens up new options not necessarily over powering units. If you understand DoW2 you'll notice that T1 units are competitive with T3.

And if you read carefully I am saying that every unit can be countered with good tactical play. Nothing screams of imba and considering that you probably won't see plasma devs at higher tiers of play (though most probably switched over to nids).

Table top also has almost nothing to do with this game except naming conventions. If you bring table top I can point out all the things that don't align with it including how heavy bolters magically suppress when in fact they don't on table top. Null argument.

As for your question - what can a cannon do? That's pretty easy , it can provide CC / passive buffs / long range sniping / AoE / or short template blasts etc. In other words, they have a myriad of capacities the real question what do the devs want. What you want or what you think is often irrelevant.

@ Ixal

I never lose squads to plasma cannons. Period. God forbid I use my scouts to figure out where they are to begin with or that I pay attention to what is being shot at me. God forbid I play like the other people on these forums who are too ADD to dodge a grenade etc. And when I do happen to die I accept the consequences and move on.

And you know, maybe it takes three shots for me to lose any members in my squad because I am not silly enough to stand them still when I know and see a plasma cannon is firing at me.


It really boils down to this: How much is this imba due to your own incompetence? This feels like the exact same screaming we had on the turrets being OP issue. As a player of three races - I feel none have the trouble in dealing with this and that req flows fairly quickly in any given situation.

[redscare]

Don't feed the trolls guys. It's not worth it.

I just hope that this is just a bug caused cos they tried to buff plasma rifles and forgot all the other stuff that was governed by that :P

What I find it's a nice counter for plasmadevs spam is to have 2 or 3 walkers. Usually charging at them does the trick. The walkers get to melee with about 25% health and rape them. Not that its a very cost-effective solution, though :P

[Eperschke88]

@Eperschke88

Where is the replay then?

U dont need one.. i honestly dont know how to do replays.. all u need is a friend.. but i guess for you gaining a friend is hard..

i do have friends. and we did try this.

so either try it with a friend. or take my word for it.

btw. u ask for replay as if i was lieing. so. im gonna quote myself.. tell me what you diagree with.


ORKs
t1 <-- all one shot.
slugga
shoota
stickbomba
stormboyz
t2
tankbustas <- one shot
lootas <- one shot
deffdread <- 3 shot
truck <- 2 shot
t3
Nob squad <- 4 shots
kommando <- 1 shot!
looted pred. <- 4 shot

if u look at other peoples posts saying "omgz 1 shot my warriors" or "OMGZ where did my whole squad go" any of these people who state having units insta killed are all lieing? or what?

so by your definition you are the only trust worty person here and we are all Liars.

[daemonn789]

Blah blah blah blah L2P you suck Blah blah blah.

Basically, with your logic, Plasma Devs should be able to 1 shot squads.

Basically, with your logic, you are just the best DoW2 player and never lose to anything because you are so pro.

Basically, with your logic, you can't discuss the damage a heavy weapons unit does because it can be countered (???).

Basically, with your logic, Plasma Devs damage is fine because they can be countered, like all other heavy weapons teams. BUT it should still do far more damage than any other heavy weapons teams... wait, what?


Get off your high horse kid, your self proclaimed DoW2 godliness doesn't fly when you contradict yourself constantly and really, have no basis for what you're talking about.

You just spew out ways to counter a heavy weapons team and then tell people to L2P if a Plasma Dev squad, 2 screens away, instant kills a unit with 1 shot.

Really, the point is this: Why do Plasma Devs do the MOST damage out of all Heavy Weapons units in the game when they:

A) Do not cost the more than any other Heavy Weapons units.
B) Share the same weaknesses as any other Heavy Weapons units.
C) Have the same firing arc/range as other T2/T3 heavy weapons units.

They out damage all other heavy weapons teams by a large margin.

And really, if we all used your logic, nothing would really get accomplished.

[brokengamegg]

plasma weapons are so overpowered. no skill required..

[SteinerNein]

@Brokengamegg

Basically, ym. But also ym, and also most of this game isn't about 'skill' in the traditional RTS sense.

@ Daemon

I have no problems with high fatality games.

I have no problems fighting Plasma Dev squads.

Learn2Play, it's not that hard. My own godliness has nothing to do with it nor with what points I am bringing up; contradictions only negate themselves but not necessarily other arguments that do not rest on it.

You obviously have no clue what glancing hits are either then again you probably stand still and try to out shoot that which is annihilating you then coming to the forums whining helplessly. =/ It's okay though, you'll eventually break the top 150 and if you have and are still complaining then I have no idea what to say.

You don't have a point either. We can go back and forth all day long until you demonstrate that the counters are somehow way too difficult for the overall cost and composition. For now, all you do is knee-jerk and call for nerfs without proper experimentation.

A) Costs do not need to be balanced across individual units in various armies but rather in the whole picture. The real answer to this dumb as hell argument is: Can other factions deal with it with the same req costs and in the same manner?

B) They have a further weakness. Slow moving projectile.

C) They do but it is not an issue that cannot be surpassed , i.e farseer's guide.

And really, if we used my logic I think you'd be labbing right now and or playing games with higher tier players and trying to figure out if your hypothesis is truly correct instead of circle jerking it with everyone else.

Basically, l2p .

And I don't trust anyone period, but what I do trust is the evidence that is brought before me. If you labbed both standing and moving , then you'd have one of a few elements necessary to vindicate your hypothesis.

But currently, as it stands, all you have is : OmG I got one shotted! Without evidence and with contradictory experiences, any person sound of mind would wait.

[Kratos]

Never had a problem with them, those plasma bolts are so slow they are avoidable. Once I see where this plasma bolt is headed I quickly think about a pro and con list, if I let it hit home how much would I lose and can I still win this battle? If not I press ex immediatly and so safe around 90% of my army. I'd pretty much say it is my own flaut for running into a plasma devastor squad, wheras I have plenty counters at hand.

And I am an Eldar player, yeah right those who got nerfed into oblivon ... poor shees can't kill anything.

[SteinerNein]

I think Kratos just owned you guys on that note.

Lab it. Direct hit versus glancing.

Then try the following, run your army in a concave formation with minimal depth towards the enemy formation. Pretty easy shit, you will get glancing hits that don't deal much damage.

Here's the part most of you miss: Timing. If you had Jaedong's ee han timing, you wouldn't even think of this but most of you have decent reflexes and understanding, this should not be beyond your grasp.

[Eperschke88]

I think Kratos just owned you guys on that note.

Lab it. Direct hit versus glancing.

Then try the following, run your army in a concave formation with minimal depth towards the enemy formation. Pretty easy shit, you will get glancing hits that don't deal much damage.

Here's the part most of you miss: Timing. If you had Jaedong's ee han timing, you wouldn't even think of this but most of you have decent reflexes and understanding, this should not be beyond your grasp.


if there was not latency sure i would do that..

btw still havent talked about

WHY THE FUCK DO THEY OUT DAMAGE EVERYTHING

strat is a moot point.. why do they insta kill units. they out damage d cannons which are more expensive less hp and t3. explain

[SteinerNein]

@ Eperschke88

Even with lag I manage to avoid that crap, same way I avoid nades. That and overall better map awareness.

By the way, why would I talk about out damaging everything when they're easily countered? It's like blaming everything on the turret of the techmarine being overpowered when you repeatedly charge into it - point blank. "Oh the turret is OVERPOWERED nothing in TIER 1 CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE IT CAN!"

Okay, let's also complain about grenades because some people are so slow they can't micro their way out of it: OMG GRENADES INSTANTLY kill my SCOUTS before I can MOVE THEM AWAY and that's tier 1 !!!1 NOTHING CAN DO THAT .. Oh god , SPORE MINES INSTANTLY KILL MY GUARDIANS and that's tier 1!! What RIDICULOUS DAMAGE!
Nerf grenades! Nerf SporeMines! Nerf Chogoling Speed up!

And you know what, has this thought ever touched you? Eldar doesn't really need a D-Cannon and when they do it's for specialized purposes not for general defense.

[daemonn789]

So according to what you've said of a Plasma Dev, 2 screens away, shoots into a unit we basically have 2 options:

1. Hit Retreat and run.

2. Die.


So, with that being said, if we retreat, we then effectively give our opponent free reign on that area. Allowing them to further set up and cap points.

Sounds like SM using Plasma Devs have it preeetty easy.


@ Eperschke88

Even with lag I manage to avoid that crap, same way I avoid nades. That and overall better map awareness.

By the way, why would I talk about out damaging everything when they're easily countered? It's like blaming everything on the turret of the techmarine being overpowered when you repeatedly charge into it - point blank. "Oh the turret is OVERPOWERED nothing in TIER 1 CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE IT CAN!"

Okay, let's also complain about grenades because some people are so slow they can't micro their way out of it: OMG GRENADES INSTANTLY kill my SCOUTS before I can MOVE THEM AWAY and that's tier 1 !!!1 NOTHING CAN DO THAT .. Oh god , SPORE MINES INSTANTLY KILL MY GUARDIANS and that's tier 1!! What RIDICULOUS DAMAGE!
Nerf grenades! Nerf SporeMines! Nerf Chogoling Speed up!

And you know what, has this thought ever touched you? Eldar doesn't really need a D-Cannon and when they do it's for specialized purposes not for general defense.

Eldar don't need D-Cannon because it's not that great. If it had the same effect as Plasma Devs, I'd use it! Even with the slow moving projectile.

Lolz.

[n00854180t]

It would probably be expedient to the discussion to simply ignore anything SteinerNein posts, since he's consistently just regurgitating
OMGZ I can't win without abusing Plasma devs, thus they aren't OP at all! Learn2play!!!!one!

All of which does nothing to further the discussion of why SM have units that are vastly superior to other armies' T3 units that are vastly more expensive, or why plasdevs are broken in the first place.

As some of the more cogent posters here have noted, this has nothing to do with "strategy". When a T2 unit outdamages by a factor of 400% a T3 unit of equivalent type but costs vastly less, there is a problem, plain and simple. Fanbois can leave, kthxbye. We don't need to hear any more of your bullshit.

[Eperschke88]

1. since plasma can shoot from off fog of war. hard to see it in time. or if u do delay will own you.

2. Grenades. do not insta kill a unit. even stickbombas. they got nurfed because they did. (so why is it ok to have a ranged insta kill unit)

3. You missed this whole threads topic and what i have ben talking about.

WHY DOES A CHEAP ART UNIT DO MORE DAMAGE THEN A T3 UNIT THAT COSTS MORE!

stickbombas grenades got nurfed because they killed whole units.. so how is a incredibly long ranged unit justified by doing the same. and 3-4 shots per grenade throw.. so pls..

[Chaos!!!]

I'd love to see fanboys justify themselves if say, a Basilisk shell were being compared against plasmadevs and said plasma proved superior.

[SteinerNein]

1. You can also see the shell coming to you. Non-issue. React faster! Quick, catch a fly with chop sticks.

2. Grenades do actually, they gib scouts instantly.

3. And you missed my question: Why shouldn't it? Furthermore, note that in this game Tier 3 doesn't mean god mode or I bust out my god units, in a matter of fact take a look at the Space Marine predator in comparison to a Tac Squad. You have some weird numbers running between the two.

Glancing hits never kill whole units. =) You can move. Do it. In a matter of fact, it seems like it takes 3-4 hits to even kill off most of a Tac squad that is on the move. A lot more to destroy a vehicle and some times it plain misses.

Chaos!!

DoW 1 -> Basilisk shots did relatively the same damage as Plasma weapons. Hence, IG players mainly focused their efforts on Priests/Guardsmen + Commissar . Hellhounds were the next best thing and same goes for Kraskin (sp) / Ogryns .

Tabletop -> Str 9? vs Str 7; one is indirect and one is direct. One is also a lot cheaper, spammable and both are equally good at taking out heavy infantry... in one hit. =) AP 1/2 respectively or something.

[Chaos!!!]

There's your proof folks. 'nuff said.

[SteinerNein]

Thanks for your contribution, non-entity.

So, how many of you have won against say, the top 200 using plasma cannons because supposedly it allows you to instantly win?

[Dux]

WHY DOES A CHEAP ART UNIT DO MORE DAMAGE THEN A T3 UNIT THAT COSTS MORE!
Yeah, this is a problem. I'm not sure if the answer is to buff the D-Cannon or nerf the Plasma Cannon, but one or the other for sure.

[neucromaner]

since when plasma, a excited gas state in vac, become a ,mini grenade. plasma look strange in dow2. ai never use plasma yet.

[LandShark]

d cannon, plasma, and zoan all gib low health infantry. Orks are the only buggers who dont get one. Really isnt any reason to have them gib them when they disrupt them also.

[Chaos!!!]

I proved a point so I became a non-entity guyz! I feel special.

Really though, plasma cannons should be able to do good damage given it's a massive ball of molten...plasma hurtling at you. Given though that it's only 400 req (no power? Really?) and is a squad-based weapon, I would say a reasonable solution would be to decrease the range or add a power cost (maybe even req?).

Just throwing ideas out there. There is definitely a problem there.

[daemonn789]

I proved a point so I became a non-entity guyz! I feel special.

Really though, plasma cannons should be able to do good damage given it's a massive ball of molten...plasma hurtling at you. Given though that it's only 400 req (no power? Really?) and is a squad-based weapon, I would say a reasonable solution would be to decrease the range or add a power cost (maybe even req?).

Just throwing ideas out there. There is definitely a problem there.

This has been my point the WHOLE time!

400 req = best infantry killing weapon in the game.


Bit cheap for the best, imo. :spin:

[n00854180t]

I think increased cost and maybe a significant damage decrease.... Or equivalent heavy weapons need to be increased in damage. IMO it probably shouldn't cost less than 450-475/40 or so, given the huge range and damage. Although, even with increased cost, it still doesn't make any freaking sense when compared with the D-Cannon.

[SteinerNein]

You didn't prove anything , non-entity. You just thought you did, hence your status.

Really though, I think people should really just explore the issue and l2p and should there then be no ways of countering at near or equal cost then an adjustment should be called for.

Maybe instead a reasonable solution would be : wait. l2p. report after dozens of games have been played at the top tiers.

[LandShark]

steiner. stating your OPINION and telling other people to L2P really doesnt prove anything.

if you wanted to prove your point you would post a replay backing up your big talk.

While the issue might not be really be noticeable in 1vs1, it is very noticeable in 3vs3.

[SteinerNein]

Sorry, but I defend the status quo and attack any knee-jerk reactions (ironic). Burden of proof is on you.

The only other way is to submit a lab or alternatively use formal logic. Yes, I did have contradictions but most of my points were independent from one another. So it didn't matter in the end considering that none of the criteria normally used for balancing was fulfilled. In other words, this thread is mostly useless though has some nice observations on how to counter dev teams and what not to do (aka sit your units / have no map control / awareness ) .

And you know what Landshark, the correct way to approach things is to experiment. What simple part of 'wait and test' do you not understand? Why would I post something that obviously goes against what I've been saying throughout the majority of the threads. Even if you lab something you would have to lab it under multiple scenarios and in the end you'd have to do it with top players to make sure that you've eliminated as many variables as possible. Again, if that's my criteria why would I post? I am not in the top 10 and I certainly won't bother wasting time of the top 10 for something I don't even consider to be an issue.

If I don't consider it an issue and I am lower tier than they are, would they really bother? Probably not. Much like the turret case, this reeks of knee jerk responses.

And anyways, you've more or less conceded that this probably isn't an issue in 1v1. Now, if we're talking 3v3 we have a whole different set of variables and we begin testing yet again.

It is as simple as that.

[LandShark]

that is literally the longest most indirect troll response i have ever seen.

Just because you play against noobs, doesnt mean that top tier players dont dominate using these.

I have seen and used plasma dev squads to extreme and i mean extreme domination.

Using multiple firing arcs overlapping. Then you set them up to fire at an angle, because they lead very very well. In a team game 1 player only needs to spam these, and they pretty much lock down whatever they want.

[daemonn789]

Sorry, but I defend the status quo and attack any knee-jerk reactions (ironic). Burden of proof is on you.

The only other way is to submit a lab or alternatively use formal logic. Yes, I did have contradictions but most of my points were independent from one another. So it didn't matter in the end considering that none of the criteria normally used for balancing was fulfilled. In other words, this thread is mostly useless though has some nice observations on how to counter dev teams and what not to do (aka sit your units / have no map control / awareness ) .

And you know what Landshark, the correct way to approach things is to experiment. What simple part of 'wait and test' do you not understand? Why would I post something that obviously goes against what I've been saying throughout the majority of the threads. Even if you lab something you would have to lab it under multiple scenarios and in the end you'd have to do it with top players to make sure that you've eliminated as many variables as possible. Again, if that's my criteria why would I post? I am not in the top 10 and I certainly won't bother wasting time of the top 10 for something I don't even consider to be an issue.

If I don't consider it an issue and I am lower tier than they are, would they really bother? Probably not. Much like the turret case, this reeks of knee jerk responses.

And anyways, you've more or less conceded that this probably isn't an issue in 1v1. Now, if we're talking 3v3 we have a whole different set of variables and we begin testing yet again.

It is as simple as that.

Lol. Just lol.


Go lab this shit idiot. WE HAVE.

Talkin' bout knee jerk reactions, lol.

I'd love to see your Matrix replays dodging everything perfectly by retreating and winning the game... :bricks:

[Eperschke88]

1. You can also see the shell coming to you. Non-issue. React faster! Quick, catch a fly with chop sticks.

delay + shootings from dark = cant dodge.


2. Grenades do actually, they gib scouts instantly.

Scouts are one of the lowest hp units in game. so yea... i can insta kill one of how many units?


3. And you missed my question: Why shouldn't it? Furthermore, note that in this game Tier 3 doesn't mean god mode or I bust out my god units, in a matter of fact take a look at the Space Marine predator in comparison to a Tac Squad. You have some weird numbers running between the two.

no tier is a way of slowing power. ie t1 nob squad = omg orks win. where as a t2 Dev squad doing more then a t3 unit which costs more form another race is counter active.. see where im goin?


Glancing hits never kill whole units. =) You can move. Do it. In a matter of fact, it seems like it takes 3-4 hits to even kill off most of a Tac squad that is on the move. A lot more to destroy a vehicle and some times it plain misses.

yea it takes 3-4 to kill a tac squad. lets start another thread why tacs are fucking stupid good.


DoW 1 -> Basilisk shots did relatively the same damage as Plasma weapons. Hence, IG players mainly focused their efforts on Priests/Guardsmen + Commissar . Hellhounds were the next best thing and same goes for Kraskin (sp) / Ogryns .

compareing dow to dow2 is silly. compare COH maybe..

why did u think they took out most arty units ? see where im going??


Tabletop -> Str 9? vs Str 7; one is indirect and one is direct. One is also a lot cheaper, spammable and both are equally good at taking out heavy infantry... in one hit. =)

First u know nothing of table top.

indirect 5 inch template.

vs roll to hit 3 inch..

the basilisk could insta kill a unit.. bigger area hit.. vs 3-4 max from plasma cannon.

wrong again.. your always wrong.

[SteinerNein]

@ Eperschke88

You're right, I don't know anything about table top except how to abuse my army and make it virtually unkillable =( You're also forgetting that 3 basilisks have lesser destructive capacity than 12+ plasma cannons coupled with 7+ las cannons.

So, we're really not talking about tabletop or DoW 1 or CoH that was addressed to Chaos unless you happen to be that same non-entity, but you still are a non-factor regardless.

Tiering isn't necessarily power but opening up new options that has the byproduct of gaining power. That being said, you tend to still use tier 1 units and tier 1 ugprades are still useful throughout the game. This linear progression isn't all out with massive degrees inbetween.

And you know what, it's pretty hilarious how there is a thread saying tacs suck. Their buff is welcomed but not necessary =)

Overall, though I think you should l2p or blaming delays. If delays are your issue then you should make a thread asking to find some way to reduce the delay. And you know what, you deserve getting shot from the dark since you have zero map awareness. You take a gamble, you should then suffer the consequences. This isn't a carebear game. =p

@ Daemon

You haven't. Where is my lab of glancing hits? Where are my labs of other scenarios? Oh wait, you haven't. GG , thanks.

@ Landshark

I've played against top 100 players and then mostly the top 200. They don't and when other SMs think they can abuse plasma devs I punish them for it. Unlike most, I don't believe the Codex Astartes demands I charge from the front all the time.

However, I am willing to be lenient when it comes to 3v3 because I deliberately use a premade team for that purpose. Against any good team however, we'll never get there but it's fun to frustrate the lower skill or the non-premades. That's what plasma devs are there for... n00b stomping. =)

It's okay though, the trueskill system is messed up anyways so I face the occasional TrueSkill 32+ and end up having to play mostly trueskill 30 and 29 which generally provides less of a challenge than some trueskill 10s or lower =) (Smurfs!)

And you know, I don't think top players really bother with SM that much either they're switching to nids or whatever else. Most haven't posted any replays of worthy mention on GR. So I don't think you have evidence either at any rate.

As for me indirect trolling, I suppose you can call it that if it pleases you. I have set my criteria and they fit standards, I see no reason why Relic should lower their standards. They should instead raise it beyond what I have set since it's fairly ... well normal and this is an extraordinary game facing extraordinary rivals. =D


But seriously guys, this one time plasma cannons blew up China... nerf plasma cannons!





Again, you may have delay issues but I tend not to ... that or do what everyone else suggests. Hit X. So long as it isn't perfectly centered you won't take a full hit. =/ It's only when you stand still.

[daemonn789]

@ SteinerNein

I still lolz at you. You haven't countered my point, at all!

Why are Plasma Devs 400 req and have the highest damage output of all artillery? Could it be a bug due to the recent plasma patch?

Should we keep Venom Cannons the same too? Because, I know how to counter them, I own them so hard because the CODEX ASTARTES DEMANDS IT!

Jesus, let the fanboi wall down a bit. :nana:

[Chaos!!!]

For a non-entity, I seem to have done a fine job raping your face Steiner. You make me laugh :)

Going to the comparison with the D-Cannon, the D-Cannon is a platform. The Plasma Devastator squad is a squad... make the Devastator a more tactical weapon for added longer-range firepower that can be used against vehicles or infantry (although not as good as a specialist in either (meaning nerf damage a bit, but keep it as a molten ball of plasma should be as far as the game permits)) and keep the D-Cannon as is.

[SteinerNein]

Chaos, the only thing you've raped is yourself. We all do this for fun.

@ Daemon

I did counter your point, you just refused to read. Rather, you just plain outright refuse to answer the question. =( Comprehension for the lose right?

And I don't have out rageous problems with Venom Cannons either. Right now they're annoying and do cause me difficulty but just as the previous patch I rolled with ASMs and various other things as Eldar without much care.

I am not like you guys who immediately jump and circle jerk to each other, I prefer to wait out and test each scenario until it becomes irrefutable.

And you know what, none of you, including myself will ever make an impact until we get to the top 10 or provide extensive labs. So why should anyone listen to you or me? There is a reason why we're all non-entities, just some suck at this game and others don't.

Oh, by the way... if they're so imbalanced go use them yourself against players in the top 100. You won't make it far nor will you make it far against any premade in 3v3. By the time you've gotten enough plasmas to achieve critical mass you would've long won the game and they're only prolonging the inevitable.

Seriously, learn how to play this game.

[Eperschke88]

@ Eperschke88

You're right, I don't know anything about table top except how to abuse my army and make it virtually unkillable =( You're also forgetting that 3 basilisks have lesser destructive capacity than 12+ plasma cannons coupled with 7+ las cannons.

So, we're really not talking about tabletop or DoW 1 or CoH that was addressed to Chaos unless you happen to be that same non-entity, but you still are a non-factor regardless.

Tiering isn't necessarily power but opening up new options that has the byproduct of gaining power. That being said, you tend to still use tier 1 units and tier 1 ugprades are still useful throughout the game. This linear progression isn't all out with massive degrees inbetween.

And you know what, it's pretty hilarious how there is a thread saying tacs suck. Their buff is welcomed but not necessary =)

Overall, though I think you should l2p or blaming delays. If delays are your issue then you should make a thread asking to find some way to reduce the delay. And you know what, you deserve getting shot from the dark since you have zero map awareness. You take a gamble, you should then suffer the consequences. This isn't a carebear game. =p

missed the point again.. why do they out damage every other unit in game for cheaper and are the toughest weapon team.

LOL unkillable army on table top.. dude..

first. gun line armys are dime a dozen and are played by kids.

second. no gunline armys have won GT or any other big tourny.. so fact is. your wrong.

third. playing SM on table top is like LOLZ

[Chaos!!!]

Real men play Dark Eldar :P

[daemonn789]

Chaos, the only thing you've raped is yourself. We all do this for fun.

@ Daemon

I did counter your point, you just refused to read. Rather, you just plain outright refuse to answer the question. =( Comprehension for the lose right?

And I don't have out rageous problems with Venom Cannons either. Right now they're annoying and do cause me difficulty but just as the previous patch I rolled with ASMs and various other things as Eldar without much care.

I am not like you guys who immediately jump and circle jerk to each other, I prefer to wait out and test each scenario until it becomes irrefutable.

And you know what, none of you, including myself will ever make an impact until we get to the top 10 or provide extensive labs. So why should anyone listen to you or me? There is a reason why we're all non-entities, just some suck at this game and others don't.

Oh, by the way... if they're so imbalanced go use them yourself against players in the top 100. You won't make it far nor will you make it far against any premade in 3v3. By the time you've gotten enough plasmas to achieve critical mass you would've long won the game and they're only prolonging the inevitable.

Seriously, learn how to play this game.

Obviously I'm illiterate, so please, let me know exactly what your refute was...

It doesn't take a pro to see Plasma Dev damage is over the top right now BECAUSE of the most recent patch. Some how, you feel this is right because... now you can instant kill squads?

Really, there isn't any justification for the damage to be where it is. Why you're against a more balanced damage table when compared with every other unit is the game is... disturbing.

:elephant:

[SteinerNein]

Do you even understand the basic methods of refutation? You know how to point out one but not the others?

I think it takes a pro to know whether or not they're truly OP and what kind of adjustment they need and even then it takes more than one pro to figure it out. There's a reason why you have a large pool of people testing in general. What part of sample size do you not understand? Maybe you ought to take a lesson from Blizzard or have you forgotten that Google is only a step away.

I have used plasma both in pre and post patch - really. And you know, it's oddly not the damage I care about. You know, as much as you talk about squad killing I don't experience it either when firing or when dodging; fact is most people just fail to move out of the way or anticipate. =/

Your inability to even grasp surface thoughts is somewhat astounding. I ask for unbiased thoroughly tested evidence as I do with any thread in regards to balance. I don't ask for anything beyond that. Period.

Really, there isn't any justification you can bring to the table that can't be countered with: L2P . Without sufficient evidence such as throwing in possible scenarios and what counters are on the table executed by good micro you really have nothing to say but an admittance that you are not even near the top 200 let alone capable of reach that. Or perhaps that you just lack imagination ... which ever you pick it's not comforting.

There is no such thing as a balanced damage table when you have other effects and variables in play. If I have no trouble with this as Eldar which some regard as the weakest race I really have to wonder why you're complaining so much. The damage isn't inevitable and can be dodged with ease.

However, that being said, I am sure they'll adjust the damage downwards regardless. But in their current state, it isn't OMG THEY OWN ! You can build one or even two and you will still lose the game. SM's main work force are their tactical marines not their plasma devs and by the time you've gotten two and maintained a sizable force the game is over. Most likely your experiences come from not gg'ing at the proper time =/

[streak]

What is it about online forums that just isn't conducive to concluding a discussion the way face-to-face convos are? Nobody ever agrees on anything, nobody ever admits a mistake or concedes a point, nobody seems to think about what the other guy is saying or take it into account. It's like I'm sitting here slamming away at my keyboard and you're sitting there doing the same and we're in the boxing ring fighting to the death. Pretty bloody pointless if you ask me.

Back on topic, the plasmadev does too much damage but can't hit worth shit. Not insta-win, but pretty retarded how easily it can take you out if it gets a good shot.

[SteinerNein]

Streak,

The solution is then not to get shot but even then the glancing hits are forgiving. And yes, these discussions are always pointless without in-depth analysis.

If anything else, it really isn't the damage I'd even bother looking at but the knock back.

[n00854180t]

Just did another test of plasma. One guy left in a plasma squad, I had about 5-6 squads of warriors (with VC or BS upgrades) and about 5 squads of gaunts plus the HT with VC, and some carnifexes on the way. We were already winning at this point. Guy had one plasma sitting there behind a wall.

I brought in my army along with my teammates flanking. 'Nids aren't fast enough to dodge the plasma, for one thing. That's fine, we had overwhelming numbers and were about to win, so I just attacked. His plasma squad (the one guy left in it at least) lobbed the plasma, hit near the front of my army where mostly gaunts were. Instant death to 3 warrior squads and 5 gaunt squads.

WHY, for fuck's sake, is the highest damage output weapon in the game a tier 2 infantry unit? Even if their cost were raised, other weapons that SHOULD by all rights do far more damage will still be fucking pointless and not worth it (read: D-Cannon, which by all rights should definitely outdamage plasma...). It's broken, plain and simple, despite the whining and crying by people that want to abuse it because they suck too much to win any other way (*cough*SteinerNein fanboi of the century*cough*).

[Latias418]

For people saying D-cannon needs to outdamage P-cannon: One has perfect accuracy last time I checked. One is about as accurate as a grenade. One also has the ability to be a blackhole generator and completely devastate everything in an area.

Not that the p-cannon isn't better, but the d-cannon doesn't have to outdamage the p-cannon.

[SteinerNein]

I could show you a replay where plasma doesn't result in death specifically of a gaunt + warriors specifically because of how the other player managed the timing on it - resulted in one huge knock back and no deaths.

I could also show you devastator teams trading hits and not dying till the 2nd-3rd rounds which takes awhile too.

I don't think you tested anything by the end of the evening but rather exaggerations. And you do realize I do play Eldar right? And I play Tyranids, arguably the most broken race right?

I don't think any one of you could avoid an ad hominem at this point.

Well, whatever, post the replay and give us the timings.

[mlai]

Whether or not plasma devs are easy to counter is irrelevant. All set-up platforms have the same general mechanics, and require the exact same methods to counter. What matters is if other platforms, especially those of later tier/cost, have the same utility. Answer = No.

It doesn't even matter if SM is a weak army (it's not, but let's say it is...), and so "needs" a semi-OP unit to back it up. In DOW1, Dark Eldar were a bit weak in late tier... doesn't mean the Dais of Destruction's beam wasn't bugged.

Lastly, Relic obviously does not want a steep learning curve for this game. They don't want this game to feature 1-shot-squish squads. That's why DOW2 has stuff like the 'x' button. That's why the patch nerfed damage by 15%. Plasma dev's 1-shot AoE range weapon is most likely an oversight. This is a beta, after all.

[daemonn789]

@ SteinerNein

You just said we can't know if it's truely "OP" or not because we are not in the top 200. Great, so stop talking. You come in here to defend people's observations.

I, and others, find that most infantry squads die to 1 plasma shot. You come in here and defend that [current implementation of Plasma Devs] telling everyone L2P. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Plasma Devs can obliterate squads with 1 shot.

So basically, we're all... wrong about our observations because you're a better player? :wtf2:

This entire argument is based on people's observation of the power of Plasma Devs. I don't think ANYONE claimed they were "instant win". You made that up along with the idea of "the top pros dont use them so obviously they aren't instant win". You created that whole idea and then argued about it.



Whether or not plasma devs are easy to counter is irrelevant. All set-up platforms have the same general mechanics, and require the exact same methods to counter. What matters is if other platforms, especially those of later tier/cost, have the same utility. Answer = No.

It doesn't even matter if SM is a weak army (it's not, but let's say it is...), and so "needs" a semi-OP unit to back it up. In DOW1, Dark Eldar were a bit weak in late tier... doesn't mean the Dais of Destruction's beam wasn't bugged.

Lastly, Relic obviously does not want a steep learning curve for this game. They don't want this game to feature 1-shot-squish squads. That's why DOW2 has stuff like the 'x' button. That's why the patch nerfed damage by 15%. Plasma dev's 1-shot AoE range weapon is most likely an oversight. This is a beta, after all.

My Lord and Savior, Mlai.

[Akranadas]

Guys, Noble warned you all to stay civil, thus I am backing him up on this and locking this thread as per his instructions.

If you wish to continue a discussion about Space Marine Plasma Devastators, feel free to repost a thread that can be discuss in a civilised manner (including evidence of accusations), rather than people taking shots at one another.

-Closed-