Tech Marine : Putting the pieces together.

[Troubleshooter]

The focus on this thread is the internal balance of the Tech Marine hero. While the assumptions are 1v1, the topic is about internal balance, so it should apply to all game modes.

Lets start with the obvious:

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Turrets
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The patch has nerfed the turret so that it now does less damage than it did before. The effect is that the turret is essentially a supression device with modest area denial ability. It can be dropped on its own if placed in a corner of the map, or its rear arc is somehow protected, but now requires support to be effective. Its primary advantage is its armor type : Building. As such, it is very resistant to small arms fire, so only dedicated anti building weapons will bring it down quickly.

Now the bad stuff. The turret costs 200/30. For that price, you get a static defense that doesn't have any more utility than a devastator squad. You save on req, but pay a steep price in energy. In effect, there is nothing that a turret can do in tier 1 that a devistator squad can't do just as well except being immune to CC tie-up. The cost in energy alone is enough to ensure that this item never gets built in tier 1... it simply will not perform as well as a combat shotgun upgrade, wargear, or earlier tech. On top of that, the turret now requires support to have killing power. This means that the turret now acts as a sort of anchor to your army. Leaving it unprotected is a waste of resources. Again, I can plant a Devistator squad in the same place, with the same fire arc, and get the same results most of the time.

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Teleporter Beacon
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Double edged blade. On big maps, this gives the TM a way to retreat (read, redeploy at high speed) to non-HQ sites. The down side is that it becomes a death trap. Smart enemies dont kill beacons when they over run an area... they set up weapon teams covering it and then drive the TM and his allies to it. The HQ has superior healing and turrets guarding it. Externally, this ability is not as useful as webways or tunnels. Orc players must love this thing.

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War-gear
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Mines : While a novel concept, in practice you don't have the time to use them, nor spam them effectively. They need to place much faster or have a much larger footprint.

Bionics : The HP upgrade is nice, but hardly noticeable. The real reason you buy this upgrade is that you expect to be facing CC units and want the "sweep" to knock them down. The problems with this power are two fold. One, its near impossible to use this power offensively. Two, the cool down on it is so long that it can not be used twice in the same battle. The major advantage is that it uses no energy, but this is little comfort when it misfires due to knockdown, or misses entirely as the battle moves away from the TM hero. Tactically, it is only useful when the TM himself is the focus of an attack by CC units, and then only to retreat. This power is totally useless near a teleporter beacon. Even when used offensively, the knockdown has no side effects and does no damage. Units will be back in the fight very quickly. It doesn't even knock down a Warboss for example.

Mark Target: Very, very deadly. A razor back and plasma gun melted a terminator FC in about 2 seconds. Nasty stuff. The armor also buffs the TM's ranged weapons. I have no idea how much, but any little bit helps. This is clearly the best armor choice available to the TM.

Plasma Gun : My only complaint with this weapon is its rate of fire. If the TM moves at all, he seems to have to re-target. Its like there is a 0.2 second set up time. I have seen him fail to fire on enemy units as they run past him for example. The overcharge option is great.

Consecrated Bolter : Brothers in arms ability is decent, but I have not seen the buff to ranged allies do much actually. Perhaps it is perception bias, but I have never seen any noticeable increase in lethality of units near the TM under this ability. Also, it seems that the ability works on Turrets. Not sure about that, but I did see the aura affect the turret. Go figure. The main weapon DPS seems average at best.

Master Crafted Bolter : Instantly suppresses a target and does major damage! Or so the tool tip says. I can't say that this is a bit of wargear I can ever find a reason to field. Supression on a single unit is over rated, and the damage isn't anything I've ever noticed as exceptional. I've not used it enough to comment on its base DPS.

Purple grenade of EMP : Great wargear option. Not so great if you miss your target. Not as easy to time/target as you might think... anything you might throw this at is pretty fast and runs through terrain. You almost have to bait the enemy into standing still... usually by giving them a dreadnaught duel. Missing with the EMP can turn the tide of the battle against you just as quickly as it works for you when you hit. It makes the coin-flip outcome of dread duels more pronounced, but it does give the advantage to the TM player. In short, you can't justify not taking this option over refractor field wargear if you are up against even light mechs.

Refractor Field : Uses up energy to get you a few more HP. It does what is says and says what it does. Tactically, this wargear makes no sense. You will never expose your TM to direct combat with high-damage units, and while at range you need all your energy for Brothers in arms or other powers. The extra hp isn't worth taking a hit from a rocket and being left unable to use your tactical abilities.

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Specials
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Blessing of somethingorother : Effect is to repair all allied mechs for a short time. Internally, this is a great power. Externally, its an awesome power. In team matches, this must be a god send. The down side is that the recovered health isn't all that much given the extreme nature of AV weapons. A single use of this power doesn't buy the average mech enough health to sustain an extra hit from most AV weapons. It will keep a crippled mech from falling to soft counters like turret or plasma-gun fire. I use it, I like it.

Tactical Drop Pod : Another good for cost power. The ability to reinforce nearby tactical squads if good, but you have to almost time the use to a battle where your tacs are taking heavy losses. In those cases, how is adding another tactical squad to the situation, without ASTKNF charged, sargents, or special weapons going to help. This power doesn't seem to have the turn-around effect they were shooting for. Dropping more tacs into an ASM fight is just a waste of req/zeal. Its nice when you have to put out a fire on the other side of the map, but lone tacs are easy prey.

VD : VD is just not worth his price tag. Its all been said before. For his cost you can get a standard dread or predator tank, and some extra scouts. The drop pod feature is nice, but unnecessary most of the time. Add to this that the is not very much more useful or durable than a standard dreadnought, and you have a great unit going unused. Finally, he only comes out in tier 3 with heavy investment, and can not stand up to or win fights with nearly any other tier 3 unit.

Termies : Like em.

Orbital : <3

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Order of battle
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Scouts : The TM hero needs very few of these. Mostly for capping and scouting. Knock down power requires energy investments into a very fragile frame. One can not deny the utility of shotguns, but without added investments, scouts will not perform for cost. The TM can not tank for them, and his ranged buffs will only help them for a short time.

Tacs : Bread and butter units. The ranged-hero design of the TM and his AV ability in tier 2 make Tactical the ideal unit for the TM player.

Devastator heavy Bolter : Cheap, good damage, mobility problems. Still, with the ranged nature of the TM, these units will perform well most of the time. They outshine turrets, but they are also fragile. The primary failing of this unit is the inability of the TM to keep them safe. With no CC ability to speak of, the TM can not screen them.

ASM : Given the total lack of CC ability of the Tech Marine, ASM are more in demand if you even suspect that the enemy is going to have jump units. The main problem with ASM is that they have zero synergy with the Tech Marine. None of his powers make ASM more effective, and they out run him most of the time. Given the undeniable state of the CC vs. Ranged dynamic, ASM are almost manditory... but less effective than other units of the same type for lack of a supporting hero.

Plasma Devastators : Great unit, but reportedly doing bugged OP damage. If brothers in arms works with this unit... whoa! The long range is great. The down side being that this is a unit that requires some expenditures to get the most out of. Scouts to reveal the fog of war, and ASM to keep them alive once they are spotted. The whole package is pretty expensive, but probably worth it.

Razorback/dreadnaught : Nothing to report. The TM can repair these units, and can do "under fire" repairs with some limited success. Refractor fields help with this. Ultimately, his repair feature will not out pace AV weapons... it just buys time. Unsure if repair powers stack.

Predator tank : Good, not great. Offensive ability is better than a tac squad, but oddly seems less durable. For cost, worth it.

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General notes
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IMHO, the TM hero is the least effective in the game. His building options have many trade offs. Turrets don't have stopping power anymore, and the teleporter beacon has mixed results depending on how badly you need its functions. Both are nearly cost prohibitive at the point in the game when they would be most useful. Often, by the time you can afford either of these items, you NEED to buy something else. I find that I almost never build either turrets or beacons as a result. This defeats the purpose of the "builder" class hero.

The TM has no tanking ability, his CC is the weakest in the game, and his ranged DPS is only modestly better (if at all) than other heroes. Watching two TM's battle in melee is comical. :)

As a result, he can not support his units in the early part of the game, which makes map control a very delicate situation. He's just another bolter... most enemies are melee oriented, and even if they are not, they can grind a TM for ever in CC.

His ranged abilities are a mixed bag. His AV consists of an EMP grenade with no follow-through. (Either you have AV to kill the mech, or you are only stalling for a few seconds.)

His support abilites are also a mixed bag. If you build ranged units to make use of the Brothers in Arms, you will see that power nullified by CC units. If you build bionics to use the sweep, you are already setting yourself up for failure, as most CC units have a knock down ability, which can nullify the sweep.

He has no mobility advantages like the Mek or Ravener.

My suggestions:
1. Make the bionics sweep ability work off his base energy and give it a stun effect. Decouple it from wargear, this should be a basic ability of the unit from the start.
2. Bionics upgrade should give him a power-fist add on for his robot arm.
3. Allow teleporter beacons to be deleted with some cost recaptured.
4. Turrets are fine as is, but the cost in energy needs to be lowered. 30 is too much for what you get. 200/15 would make more sense and encourage the TM to be the "builder unit" he was intended to be.
5. EMP grenade should be "sticky" like meltas.
6. Venerable dread needs to be overhauled. Make him a 900/900 unit and competitive with carnifex thornbacks, or give him some meaningful upgrades like multi-melta/plas cannon options.

[Akranadas]

I totally agree on all your points Troubleshooter, the Tech Marine is my favourite Space Marine Commander, but overall; he seems somewhat limited in the points you listed above.


Mines : While a novel concept, in practice you don't have the time to use them, nor spam them effectively. They need to place much faster or have a much larger footprint.


Mines are great. I tend to pick them first, due to their impact on clusters of units like Gaunts, Guardians and Boyz. They deal Modest damage and instantly suppress units that are around them. If you leave a Tech Marine on a flank with this Wargear, he should have mind everything he could. Also: Place mines in cover, that seem to deal a bit more damage due to the squads wanting to jump into cover, to bad it's mined ;)

[warlock00]

Good post.

Yeah the Tech Marine is not so good in the latest beta patch. Due to everyone saving power for their dreads (which are now quite powerful), if you build a turret or two you're going to be seriously lacking power to counter the dreads.

Yeah a lot of wargear for all commanders could do with some buffs/tweaks.

[SteinerNein]

The problem with Tech Marine is that his support capacities are too limited for a fragile hero with no other redeeming qualities.

Turrets are worthless for the most part and mines can't be used frequently due to the absurd energy cost.

Also, in tier 1 the tech marine has very little to contribute .

[BL4zD]

The drop pod reinforces all troops and deploys tacs.
The ven dread is actually very useful once you get the feel for him, but it's likely not wise to choose him over the now less expensive termies. I have no idea why it's lower (to the left) of the termies ability but cost more zeal. With the req changes it should have been fairly obvious that resources are not going to be the bottlenexk. I guess if you have the zeal and can't possibly wait a couple seconds, then you'd choose ven dread over termies, but I've never been in that situation.

If my FC has his assault termies out, I bring ven dread to buff his melee. We're already on our way to winning, however, at that point. I haven't found myself doing that in a crunch. I don't think he should be buffed, I think the cost should be reduced.

In pre-mades, the relay has never been a liability. But I make sure to place it good and communicate where it is and ensure it's not overrun. When our 3rd isn't online, we cringe whenever anyone else is TM. Usually results in a loss. Last time I played, we were on desert map and I was taking care of the power/req along the bottom. A random TM was positioned at the top. He placed a relay station up there for some unknown reason and to make matters worse, didn't bother to secure the middle of the map. Took a while for me to realize why me and my buddy were being slaughtered and our units were running across completely overrun territory. So not only were we being killed on our way to the relay point, but the craptastic pathing resulted in our new troops running back toward us through the same grindfest so by the time they got back to me there was 1 guy left :(

[Vertrucio]

I can confirm that 3 stikkbommaz grenades (basically a full squad's throw) will blow up a full health turret (or if it wasn't full health it had only taken minimal damage).

3 grenades is supposed to be powerful, but I wouldn't mind seeing those grenades basically take a turret to very near death as opposed to destroying it. Even though I hate turrets, I recognize when something isn't as useful as it should be.

The problem is, making turrets cheaper gives them more spam potential. And even if they are static defenses, those are still things that give actual troops support. And they can be built where they're needed.

Perhaps some turret upgrades with highly visible graphical add ons may help?

[ImmortalChaos]

15 or even 20 power for a turret would be pretty insane IMO. I could settle with 25, but I'd really love to see several upgrades for turrets, possibly an AoE artillery-ish one, and an AV one. It'd make the turret mechanic a lot cooler.

[Akranadas]

Also, in tier 1 the tech marine has very little to contribute .

I disagree. This is why I get the Mines as soon as possible, in T1; a good mine placement can really ruin someones day (this must be the CoH player in me going for mines), specifically if you rush your TM behind the enemy, and place a mine where your enemy walks. Or my favourite, Luring your enemy into a mine. Placing them on VPs is great... and for extra bastardary, place them between your enemies gens, next time he walks through there, they'll blow, maybe taking a gen out with them.

I see the mines as the TM's way of forcing the enemy into being cautious about where he sticks his troops. If you can do the damage early with mines from a psychological point of view, you can make your enemy walk a very fine line on the battlefield.

[Troubleshooter]

15 or even 20 power for a turret would be pretty insane IMO. I could settle with 25, but I'd really love to see several upgrades for turrets, possibly an AoE artillery-ish one, and an AV one. It'd make the turret mechanic a lot cooler.
Upgrades and flexablilty are always nice, but realistically, getting relic to add content takes an avalanche of pressure (CoTMS). Though I have asked for a power-fist capability for the bionics upgrade, thats just a stealth buff to the TM's CC... any graphical changes would be optional on relics part... so its possible.

Making turrets cheap on power isn't the same as making them spammy. The req cost is still high enough to keep the cost/benefit math alive when deciding to place a turret. 15 power is a pittance, but its not free either. Heavy Bolter Devs (HBD from now on) are 0 power and have certain advantages over turrets. Turrets on the other hand dont have to run across the map to the spot the TM wants to secure... the power cost is for the convienience of instant gratification really.

When turrets were more deadly and hard to counter, 30 power was easily justified. Now, not so much.

@Akranadas :
My main issue with mines is the cost of use and time to build. The TM is leaving his troops unsupported in a fast moving game while he plants a mine that may never do anything at all. This is exacerbated by the tiny footprint of the mine field. For a TM to lock down an area, he has to break synergy with his forces or keep them in the rear with him. As usual, relic punishes idle units... which is fine... but in this case it encourages a slothful pace while also punishing it.

Mines are the easiest thing to tweak, theres almost nothing universally good or bad about them, so you can mess with just about any attribute and make them very good for cost. I would like a larger footprint myself. I'd like to know that once I put these babies down, they will see enemy feet.

I'll add that in tier 1 the TM is still strong... especially with the plasma gun. But given the CC nature of every other hero, duels between TM + units vs. Enemy hero + Units always favors the enemy until the TM has enough energy to buy a better weapon. The down side is that the enemy will hit that same energy threshold at the exact same moment, so will gain combat ability at the same time. This keeps the TM behind the power curve and more reliant on bodyguard escort.

[AntiCommie]

AV turret upgrades would really help. That way a TM can play defensively, kind of like WM Defense Doc plays in COH. reinforcing from bunkers, while turrets lock down an area.

[HexHammer]

I disagree. This is why I get the Mines as soon as possible, in T1; a good mine placement can really ruin someones day (this must be the CoH player in me going for mines), specifically if you rush your TM behind the enemy, and place a mine where your enemy walks. Or my favourite, Luring your enemy into a mine. Placing them on VPs is great... and for extra bastardary, place them between your enemies gens, next time he walks through there, they'll blow, maybe taking a gen out with them.

I see the mines as the TM's way of forcing the enemy into being cautious about where he sticks his troops. If you can do the damage early with mines from a psychological point of view, you can make your enemy walk a very fine line on the battlefield.
What are this mine tactic for? Easy computers?

[redscare]

While I haven't tried the TM much, I've been faced against some players with good micro and man! the guy is nasty! bag full of tricks :P


1. Make the bionics sweep ability work off his base energy and give it a stun effect. Decouple it from wargear, this should be a basic ability of the unit from the start.
2. Bionics upgrade should give him a power-fist add on for his robot arm.
3. Allow teleporter beacons to be deleted with some cost recaptured.
4. Turrets are fine as is, but the cost in energy needs to be lowered. 30 is too much for what you get. 200/15 would make more sense and encourage the TM to be the "builder unit" he was intended to be.
5. EMP grenade should be "sticky" like meltas.
6. Venerable dread needs to be overhauled. Make him a 900/900 unit and competitive with carnifex thornbacks, or give him some meaningful upgrades like multi-melta/plas cannon options.

1. Not sure, may be too much.
2. OK, but remember power fists suck bigtime now (compared to pre-patch at least).
3. Yes please!!
4. I like the reduced turret damage but I agree that less power would be fine. Something around 20, so you must choose between turret or shotguns :)
5. That, or have some more AoE
6. Keep it 900/700 like Terms and make it kick ass like Assault Terms!!

[Hirmetrium]

1. Make the bionics sweep ability work off his base energy and give it a stun effect. Decouple it from wargear, this should be a basic ability of the unit from the start.
2. Bionics upgrade should give him a power-fist add on for his robot arm. I actually really like these suggestions. I mean, the dreadnoughts can slam stun, and the kommando already has a tier 1 grenade stun. Why not the TM?

Turrets at a lower energy would be... interesting. Right now you can't afford to delay tier 2 further than a squad of Assault marines or one or two squad upgrades. A 15 power cost would be more realistic... but maybe overpowering.

[Dux]

Man, you're underrating the power of Consecrated Bolter. That thing fucking rules.

[Akranadas]

@HexHammer: No actually, You place a mine in green cover, and the enemy is bound to run into it as cover is important, you place mines in every bit of cover you see, and you'll have great success. Also placing it in the arches on the Desert Map, at the door of buildings ect only increases there success rate.

Again, this is more of the COH player in me talking, as mines are so dangerous in that game, and they are the same in thing one. Works great against Tyranids to be honest.

[SteinerNein]

@ Akranadas

I think the energy requirement on mines is a bit steep, 65 per mine? =/ You can only set down one at a time until later levels.

[Akranadas]

Yeah, it is steep, but then again I don't think they want mine spam.

The ability itself has no recharge, so that puts it above his other abilities as it only costs energy. However, once the Tech Marine hits around level 4-5, his energy recharge is sufficient to sustain multiple mine placing.

It takes more work than usual tactics, and does have a large risk then other strategies and wargear builds, so I wouldn't say it's for everyone.

[BL4zD]

I find the cooldown more limiting than the power (in regards to the MekBoy). I certainly don't think anyone should be spamming mines, however, which is what he asked for...the capability to "spam them effectively"!

Even in CoH you can't "spam" mines...you have to build each one. In DoW II you just toss a handful of them.

[SteinerNein]

Compared to the other wargear and looking at army compositions, I would say that you need mines to be relatively cheaper than they are now. Currently, you have to get lucky in order for the mines to do their trick and you still don't have the same kind of survivability in melee or in ranged as a FC hitting Battle Cry does.

[Akranadas]

BL4zD, the Tech Marines mines are different to the Mek Boyz, due to him having to build 1 mine himself. He doesn't throw them out like the Mek Boy does, which is why the TMs is somewhat more powerful than the MB.

[BL4zD]

BL4zD, the Tech Marines mines are different to the Mek Boyz, due to him having to build 1 mine himself. He doesn't throw them out like the Mek Boy does, which is why the TMs is somewhat more powerful than the MB.
Yeah, I have to go try this out because while I am TM more often than anything else I've never used his mines :O

After I read your comment that there was no cooldown on mines, I realized I was writing about my experiences as MekBoy and went back and edited my post to reflect that.

But it's interesting that you consider the TM mines as superior to MB, because I find MB's to be fine and I suspect I will find TM mines to be at least as powerful. I also lace my mines the same way you described, however--strategically versus spammed. I don't really know how more mines would equal better mining because if the spotter sees one he sees them all, unless I'm wrong.

[FooF]

Mostly spot on, OP.

I did some labbing with Turrets yesterday and your comparison of a Turret vs. HB Squad is off dramatically: the HB Squad is ridiculously more effective than the Turret.

Get this: Two (2) turrets nearly side-by-side have a hard time taking out a single squad of Gaunts before they reach the first turret. They suppress but they do meaningless damage now. The HB squad rapes the Gaunts as they close in (because damage scales upwards as range decreases) and suppresses far faster. I'd dare say the HB does 2x the suppression and 3x the damage.

In all seriousness, Turrets are worthless at all stages of the game. They're not even area deniers anymore because you can simply walk through the field of fire at suppression speed. At 30 Power, they're not worth it at all. Personally, I had no problem with the Turrets pre-patch and so this change...disturbs me. I can deal with it suppressing less but the damage was nerfed to oblivion. It needs a drastic cost reduction if they're going to leave it as it is. It's worth maybe 100/10 at this point.

The reinforcement beacon needs to have a priority function or every unit needs to have a CoH-style "Captain Retreat" button that tells the squad to retreat to the beacon with the regular retreat-to-the-HQ left alone. I think the latter is the best option. Never take control away from the player. The "Relay Retreat" button needn't be on a timer like the Captain's in CoH but it needs to be there so we don't run into kill zones, as the OP said.

Landmines are too expensive for their usability, imo. Like the OP said, the footprint on them is tiny. You need a minefield for one to go off and that costs the TM 60 power each (I believe.). I'd love to be able to lay a minefield a la CoH but that's not possible. If the mines were easier to hit, I'd say they're worth the cost but right now, they need to be spammable to be effective and at 60 power, that's not possible.

Venerable Dread at 900/900? I don't think that's the answer. I want it to be an uber-unit, too, but that means you never see the damn thing (as we witnessed from Termies pre-patch). I'm fine with the 750/750 as long as it performs at that level. It is currently no where near as effective as the Termies at 700/900 so there's no reason to wait for the extra 50 Zeal to get it.

A few suggestions for the Ven. Dread:
1.) Make it available in T2. It would basically be a Power-free Dread w/the DAoT upgrade for 750/750 (before Termies are available in T3). It would trump regular Walkers in T2 prior to all their upgrades so basically the TM gets a jump on the other races/Commanders.

2.) Reduce its price to 650/650 but leave as-is, otherwise. Basically, it would be worth it's cost.

3.) Raise price to 750 Z/900 Req and buff the hell out of it such as 1500 HP, ranged options (like the aforementioned Multi-melta and the Plasma Cannon) and instead of the offensive aura that inspires nearby troops after each kill, just give it a permanent aura (like a larger radius version of the Sacred Standard on the FC). Dreads and Termies already do the whole "inspire after each kill" thing, the Ven. Dread should do something different but equally powerful.

I'd love for the TM to be able to use the Refractor Field to absorb ranged damage. I.e. while active, every shot that hits the field subtracts its worth in energy but gives the TM an equal amount of health. It would be a desperation move. Dying? Turn it on and absorb a ton of HP at the expense of energy. Maybe it would have a passive of effect of, while active, a regen boost. I don't know. I'd like it to be something other than an Iron Halo.

[BL4zD]

I like the thought you're putting into the V. Dread but I want to point out something I think needs to be considered:
At least in 3's, if you have 650+ zeal and enough req for a V. Dread, then there's not much point in just teching to T3 and dropping Termies. If you're at that point in the game, unless something is drastically wrong, you'll recoup the req cost of the T3 tech by the time the upgrade is complete.

I don't think people would choose to stay at T2 at the current 3's req rate even with the reduced cost and enhancements. Also, if you're slaughtering the opponent, it's not hard to regain the zeal and at that point you want to be in T3 for OB or even another termie squad.

[streak]

I wouldn't ever build turrets vs. eldar or orks, they just get vaporized by grenades.

[Vertrucio]

Perhaps the Ven dread could act more like a unique unit, similar to the King Tiger or Jagdpanther in CoH. The thing might not do that much more damage than a regular dread, but it would be very, very difficult to kill. That would fit in more with the fluff as ven dreads are ancient dreadnaughts that know all about staying alive on the battlefield. It would also allow the techpriest to be more techy by having to repair the thing since he's the only one with a decent repair rate. However, once destroyed that's it, no more.

[BL4zD]

That's how I use it now (down to the techpriest), but in the back of my mind I know I'm playing to lore rather than efficiency because I gimp my damage and survivability by going for V. Dread over termies. (BTW, he is a unique unit--but he's not very, very difficult to kill by any stretch of the imagination)

[Vertrucio]

Ah, well a patch is in order. Even as an Ork and Nid player (eventually will play SMs after I learn the other two well) I'd love to see the ven dread be the kind of unkillable bad ass they're portrayed as in the fluff. Double the HP, but keep the damage the same. Even with double HP, the thing can still be driven away by AV fire if left alone.

I'm still wondering about the supposed extra bonus that ven dreads give to squads nearby.

[Hirmetrium]

Personally I think 2,000 HP would be a buff enough. Otherwise, he needs to be moved to tier 2 and get a cost reduction.

[Troubleshooter]

@ESR : I tried to stay away from being overly enthusiastic about buffs/nerfs in the analysis. Mainly, I just wanted to lay out the state of the internal balance. Yes, turrets are pretty bad right now. I think most people agree... but there was a mighty uproar about them pre-patch. So far no one is happy about them, so I didn't feel the need to smear them any further.

Well, I'm out of the discussion for a few weeks while I deal with some RL stuff. I hope that relic has a look at the Techmarine and makes some adjustments. Lord knows theres another balance patch needed to get the game back to a playable state... we can only hope that they are planning some redesign of the TM to get him up to speed as well.

Any of you aspiring TM players, share your experiences... don't just dump the TM in favor of better hero options. Relic needs data that they can't collect internally, it has to come from us.

Cheers
TS

[CoatedTrout]

I entirely agree with the OP.

Even though I play as (and do well as) him, I still think the techmarine pales in comparison to the apocethary, for example, who starts with a heal ability for other squads and himself that makes him very viable in melee. Poor old techy here gets a bolter and less HP.

[LandShark]

i cant speak for 1vs1, but the 3vs3 techmarine is incredible.

Marked target turns anything you want into a dead target.

tier 3 bolter and marked target are badass combos. mark the target and then use the suppressing shot. it deals tremendous damage, and then you can finish it off with someone else.

the orb is awesome. stun a walker, mark it and let your marines clean up. When a vehicle is marked, regular bullets deal damage also.

[Nanolathe]

Hmm. Techmarine.
Well, with my experience of him he is indeed just a wee bit too combatively weak in CC. If something surrounds him other than Un-Synapsed Gaunts then prepare for a speedy death and no counter-kills... It's a little embarrassing to have him fall so quickly with not a kill to his name. I'd love to see him use his ServoArm more (either using the sweep more often with a reduced cooldown or using it without a wargear upgrade) or just giving him more power to crunch through something. For me I'd like to see him able to use the arm to punch with some medium AV capability as this would be vaguely keeping in line with TT abilities.

I think his starting abilities (Turret, Beacon and such) are fine. A turret was never meant to kill (they are BS2 in game) and the suppression is nice if you have a Tac squad to do the cleaning up.

The beacon is more tricky to set up than a turret, but it's VERY useful if you have a mind to put it in a defensible spot halfway between the front lines and your Base.

I'd like to see the TM useful in-and-of himself, rather than just his abilities

[Steel*Faith]

In regards to the Relay Beacon, this should have been a no brainer. In CoH there were TWO retreat buttons. The reatreat to HQ, and retreat to officer. Well they should have done the same here. Retreatto HQ, or Retreat to support structure.

I also agree with the rest of your post. Very honest, very informative post.

[Troubleshooter]

Ok, last post...

TM war gear run through its paces. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=3371044#post3371044)

Findings are in that thread.

Basically, I cant find a reason to buy anything but Plasma, marked target armor, and Orbs.

Oh, and I found out that orbs do about 200 damage when they hit. Not great, but its a nice little bonus :)

Someone is going to have to prove that the TM bolters are worth their cost... the "Super shot" does about 100 damage to a Hero, and about 200 with the target marked. I get the same results from an over charged plasma gun in tier 1 thankyouverymuych. "super shot" will one shot a low health unit and suppress it... but what is that really worth?

[ThirdDanScoota]

Thankyou for your effort Troubleshooter, this information is very helpful indeed.

My experience with the Tech Marine is limited but during my time of using him, he seems lacking in how you describe.

Frankly, I'm surprised at the lack of combat utility for that Servo Arm. I agree with Nanolathe on this - it needs a combat role. They're an effective close combat weapon that would give him some more variety and help his survival in CC, which is quite low.
He really seems quite useless vs melee Commanders, and the global ranged damage reduction coupled with the massive ranged defensive bonus retreating units receive makes him easy to escape or even ignore to an extent.
It seems that by being a ranged Commander (and the slowest one at that) he is automatically placed at a combat disadvantage. I hope this changes.

...if he could upgrade to his full Servo Harness, like the FC Termie Armour upgrade.

[Hirmetrium]

By "turrets are LOL worthy" you mean their completely useless? I already knew brothers in arms was crap, lost me too many games as it is... plasma is really the way to go, since overcharge is so powerful. Marked Target is still absolutely awesome.

Problem with TM is that SM need a melee hero to support tacticals/scouts, who perform best at ranged. The TM is not that hero, and the apoth/FC are. This leaves you weak vs melee races, because theres nobody to tank or be at high efficiency. Ofc, hes the best hero against eldar, because of the ranged firepower matches guardians. Also notice how both the Apoth and FC can specialise in range, but the TM can't specialise in melee or escape.

Wargear is not the issue per say. In fact, most of his wargear is superior to that of the other commanders. Its just he doesn't have a skill from the start to use, which is rather crap compared to say FC battlecry, Apoth Heal, Warpspider and mekboy TP etc...

[Dux]

While there are some good points in this thread, I think you guys are underrating the TM. A lot of things you're complaining about, like his inability to perform well in direct combat, are by design. He's a support hero.

If you use Brothers in Arms around a Tac squad, you turn that squad into a death machine. If you use it around two Tac squads, you will win any ranged engagement hands down. This is an amazing ability.

The Master-Crafted Bolter is a tad expensive, but instant suppression and high damage to a target can be extremely useful as a support ability. It has very long range, so for example, you can keep your TM way back, approach a squad of Level 4 Banshees that were giving you trouble with cloaked Scouts, use the shot to kill one or two outright and suppress the squad so it can't run away too fast, then toss a grenade and finish the whole squad if your opponent wasn't paying attention for even a second. It's not always useful to have; it depends on how you want to use your TM. It's most useful if you don't have any other suppression weapons, which I often don't.

Anyway, I think you're just looking at a lot of his wargear wrong. I agree that turrets are pretty much crap now, but his wargear is still damn useful if used in a support role. If you're looking for some tanking ability, you really should just use the FC; that's what his role is.

The vast majority of my games in the beta have been 1v1 with the TM. I have a TrueSkill of 30 and a record of 159 - 53 or something like that. I feel like I have some decent experience with the hero, so I'd be happy to post some replays of different MUs using different wargear if people want to see it. Just let me know.

[Hirmetrium]

If you use Brothers in Arms around a Tac squad, you turn that squad into a death machine. If you use it around two Tac squads, you will win any ranged engagement hands down. This is an amazing ability.
Dux, I think your overplaying the power of the ability. The bonus is crap compared to that of the plasma gun, and not limited by how many squads are within grenade explosion range of the Techmarine.

[LandShark]

lets not forget about his global abilities.

his basic heal all vehicles for a tiny zeal amount is incredible.

The venerable does need a buff, or a cost decrease, probably both tbh.

He is more about a vehicle army than infantry army from what i can tell.

i find brothers in arms great for use with plasma and missle launchers. increases thier damage and rate of fire, it wont help basic tacts much, but the boosts to both of those weapons is great.

I support a change to the servo upgrade, it should do damage and stun maybe.

I still feel marked target makes him worth the investment. he basically nullifies a vehicle, squad, commander instantly with it.

[Dux]

Hirmetrium, I'm not. I've won many games due largely on account of this ability. The plasma gun is certainly the best choice for the TM by himself -- it does the most raw damage -- but Brothers in Arms is much better with a group. If you use TM as a support hero, Brothers in Arms is almost always the best way to go.

[Hirmetrium]

I dont see how it can be so effective Dux, when Brothers in arm's range is so small. It means having all your troops concentrated around the TM, in risk of grenades/AOE weapons, or being so close they can't all fit in the same piece of cover and miss out on the CRUCIAL bonuses.

[JanusRN]

I can honestly say that I've guilty of not playing the TM after the patch and switching to the apoth. In my opinion, he's much more capable of a "support" hero than the current or previous TM incarnation.

However after reading Troubleshooter's OP, it it prompted me into playing around with the mechboy lately. I didn't see anything in the patch notes about the mekboy turret being nerfed in the same manner. It seems much more effective than the current TM turret. It's enough that I'll actually bother building 1 or 2.

The orbital relay is in my opinion the TM's greatest asset and his greatest liability. It's easily exploitable by opposing forces even with smart placement.

@Dux, I agree the TM is a support hero, however when I compare the TM to the other SM heroes. I find the TM lacking in terms of support ability. The orbital relay is exploitable, he has marked target and band of brothers, but off hand I really can't think of any other support abilities. Those abilities I mentioned with the exception of marked target has significant drawbacks. An easy fix for band of brothers is to increase the range to the FC's battle cry or the orc waagh ability.

If I had to define a hero as support I feel the Apoth is a much better hero even with his healing broken.

Since I've been using the Mekboy lately, the advantages of the mekboy are quite significant. Teleport alone is a huge advantage. I can't tell you how many times I've used teleport to port into the middle of a weapons platform to melee them.

I was an exclusive TM player prior to the patch, but I'm really liking the mekboy. His wargear options and built in abilities are everything the TM is not.

I'm at work so I can't go into details, but I'd suggest checking into the Mekboy's abilities and wargear. I was pretty appalled after having used the TM for so long.

Otherwise, Troubleshooters OP was spot on. Unfortunately, I'm at a lost fo come up with a reasonable easy to implement fix for the TM. Everything, I've come up with would take costly discussion and dev time except anything I may have mentioned in this post.

[LandShark]

for 250 zeal, you can save your vehicles from annihilation. Cant underestimate that.

250 zeal to save a 500 req 90 power dread is worth it.

Focus on vehicles, and support them with a few infantry, that can stand with the techmarine and get the benefit from his band of brothers.

you have to quit trying to play the techmarine like other heros.

[Dux]

you have to quit trying to play the techmarine like other heros.
I don't think you need to make your army vehicle-centric if you use the TM, but this quote is dead on. Any suggestion to make TM a better tanking hero is really just missing the point of the TM. He's still my favorite hero.

[LandShark]

you dont have to focus on vehicles, but it helps to focus on his strengths.

[ThirdDanScoota]

I just feel that the Farseer is superior in the "Support" role. Doom +Guide + melee disruption seems more useful in my opinion, although Orbs are more effective than the overnerfed Singing Spear. I know, its a hard comparison to make considering they're different races, but I still think its valid at least to some degree.

Just seems to me that the Force Commander and Apothecary are more "fleshed out" (especially the FC though) while the TechMarine was more of an afterthought.

[Hirmetrium]

I think its a bit of bullshit the farseer gets doom in tier 1, combined with a skill designed to boost ranged damage independantly of a unit, while the TM doesn't. Sure the TM can build turrets, but they cost 100% more than guide because its FREE.

LandShark - Currently, vehicle focusing is risky, but as techmarine not building a razorback for the price it is, you're better off just not playing TM :/

[LandShark]

some people might be better of using something other than the techmarine, but i stand by my choice to use him.

I am not against some buffs, his servo arm should stun and do damage. his proximity mines should deploy a few that deal less over.

Other than just a couple changes to a few of his wargear to make the rest equally powerful and useful he is godly.

not every commander is usuable to the same extent based on how you play.

[BL4zD]

Well there's the crux of the situation..."just a couple changes to a few of his wargear to make the rest equally powerful" If that was done, most of the thread's concerns would be answered.

I don't understand why ven dread is more than termies.
Or why the EMP grenade is on a long, high arc with a timer rendering it near useless because someone can walk/drive away from it before it explodes. You can't really tie a vehicle up in melee like you can troops.
The relays are very useful, but the one time they are detrimental they are so horrible it makes it so your team requests you never build them. The most telling part is that when you see an enemy's relay do you blow it up or leave it alone...all the games I've played in people are screaming/typing to leave it alone and it often has a decisive role in winning the round.

[Midgetus]

Just my 2 cents: powerful sweep + master-crafted bolter (powerful shot?) = 1 dead melee squad/1 seriously frustrated melee hero.

[SquaLdon]

Why not just remove (either in entirely or in part) the req/power cost of the turret, give it a personal energy cost, and just hard cap the number of turrets allowed up at any given time (say 1-2, maybe a wargear or simply higher tier/level unlocking more)? Perhaps at T2 unlock a longer-range AV turret, probably sharing hard cap with the first. Allow turrets to be self-destructed if that's not possible already. Even if they were kept as they are you might actually see turrets deployed once in awhile without a hefty cost attached.

Wouldn't fix TM entirely, but might at least get that ability to see use. I also agree on the need for a bit of a bigger footprint on proximity mines.

[glenn3e]

How about this, remove power cost than cap the number of turrets to the tier the player currently is. So at beginning of the game - 1 turret. As he tech he gains more. That way it can't be spammed in team games but is still usable since its cheaper.

[Latias418]

I think the turret needs to be completely reworked. It's purpose is completely overlapping with Devastators, the main differences being immobility, building armour, and the cost. Give it a different purpose - Say, lower the cost significantly (150/0 maybe), all but take away suppression, lower hp, lower build time, lower damage. This would turn it in to a cheap investment for some quick fire support during a battle, instead of a large investment for a suppressive weapon that's useless as soon as the enemy flanks or has vehicles, or the battle shifts locations. I don't think it's going to work like that, no matter how much you mess around with the cost.

[JanusRN]

I don't think you need to make your army vehicle-centric if you use the TM, but this quote is dead on. Any suggestion to make TM a better tanking hero is really just missing the point of the TM. He's still my favorite hero.


@Landshark - Ahh there's an ability I did forget the ability to repair my vehicles and also allied vehicles is a very nice ability. Thank you for pointing out that ability. However I don't play the TM like the other heros. If I gave you that impression that wasn't my intent. I was attempting to do a general comparison of usefulness. In other words the strengths of the other heros are greater in value than the strengths of the TM hero in my opinion.

@Dux I agree wholeheartedly. I think making the TM a better tanking hero would be a mistake. I've seen this suggestion made by others and I think giving them a similar role though different in implementation would make hero selection fairly bland.

However I do still feel that that the other two heros offer more total value than the TM especially given the mixed bag of strengths that are double as liabilities that the TM offers.

[D-coy]

I don't know about you, but I saw the TM tank quite a bit of damage with his HP/regen booster armour. Coupled with the plasma gun he's one tough mofo (is this the right word? Eh.).

[alisbin]

as far as his turrets go i'd rather see the following (something similar for mekboy turrets too)
cost 100 energy
keep current turret specs or tweak them only slightly
give the turret X energy, non regenerating
have each second of firing drain 1 energy, treat this limited ammo, balance max energy as found appropriate.
give any repair capable unit the ability to replenish a turrets energy (reload it) at a rate of 1 energy every 2 seconds (non stackable)
also, make turrets vulnerable to being smashed like cover by vehicles.

[D-coy]

They costing 100 energy would make them worthless, let alone having limited ammo. I think it's not a good idea. If turrets need anything, that's a buff to HP.

EDIT: (Note the 'if' part.)

[BL4zD]

There's a global buff to suppression in the patch. We should wait until release to see if it applies to turrets before making any conclusions about the relative worth of them.

[alisbin]

energy as in the TM's energy, no req, power or pop cost.

[D-coy]

Sorry, my bad, I'm quite exhausted today, this is my 3rd misreading. :D

That'd make them a bit too spammable I guess. But neat idea, very different.

[alisbin]

s'all good, anyway, costing 100 energy would make them significantly less spammable, even for a high level TM and you could also have a cool down related to the amount of energy the turret spawns with. so say if it can fire for... 30 seconds (IE has 30 energy), maybe the cooldown is 45 seconds. a cooldown is kinda moot though since 100 energy takes awhile to regen, even with the energy boost wargear you'd have to use ALL of your energy just to maintain your turrets if you went with turret spam. another thing you could add to balance it out would be to drain energy from the unit thats repairing/reloading it.
it would also give the TM a real DEFENSIVE edge in that he could better defend points with his turrets. it would be defensively powerful, but with the tradeoff that it would be a short duration defense.
oh, and it would help against the *multiple expletives deleted* ripper swarms on rear de-capping duty that SM can't really cope with due to low unit count.

[Midgetus]

I'd like to see a small energy (TM energy) cost and req but no power cost. They're basically stationary but more durable HB devs, and should be comparable in cost to reflect that. I like the idea of limiting their number by tier, that way you could only lock down one VP in T1, and then can build more as more counters appear. I think being able to choose the retreat point for the teleporter relay as with the CoH Brit captain, and removing the hefty power cost from turrets would go a long way towards making the TM a more competitive 'builder' hero.

[BL4zD]

If they were around 75 energy, you wouldn't need to cap them per tier as it'd be difficult to spam them. Even at lvl 10 you could only put 2 down at a time. You'd also have to choose between the turret and mines.

[D-coy]

The problem with this might be that you could build turrets and tech up at the same time, potentially gaining a significant advantage over the other players.

[BL4zD]

That thought did occur to me, but if we're operating from the premise that the TM is weaker than other players this would serve to equalize him rather than surpass the rest.

[JanusRN]

If we're talking about the ability to build turrets at the cost of energy (not to be confused with power from power nodes) as turrets are currently. I don't think I could agree with that change. I think that would cause the TM to tilt more towards being imba. No other hero has anything that lasts permanently and is capable of doing damage.

I'd actually be in favor of returning the damage of the turret to it's pre-patch damage but increasing the req cost. Yesterday I capped a VP point with a ASM (or it might have been a TAC) squad while being shot at by a TM turret.

[Midgetus]

That right there is proof that turrets need a buff. IMO, there should be no weapon in the game so pathetic that a lone squad would choose to ignore it and cap a point unless capping that point was more important than the lives of the squad.

[alisbin]

i wasn't suggesting that the turrets be permanant, thats why i brought up the idea of making the turrets spend energy to fire and be breakable by units that can crush cover, that way they are more of a stop gap sort of thing that partially reduces SMs massive map control weakness.