Dealing with Assault Marines

[ZabuzaNinja]

Any ideas? So far I have heard the following suggestions, but have yet to have too much luck with:

-Toss grenades at your feet then run (this leaves me with a squad running and nothing to take on the assault marines, even 2 grenades right at the feet of the assaults only takes half their hp, and they still have no problem mopping up 2 guardian squads)
-Have a shuriken cannon backing up another shuriken cannon so when the assaults jump they get suppressed (the first cannon is dead, the second just has the few seconds till the get their jump recharged)
-Rush Tier 2 and use banshees with the exarch to suppress (almost works, but with any backup banshees are forced to retreat, at which point the assault easily finishes off with their ability to kill retreating units, goodbye 465 req and 30 energy)

With nearly every space marine player getting at least 1, if not 2 assault marines, I am unable to beat them in a match. Any help would be appricated.

[Swashbuck]

to catch ASM you need to set up a trap. Lure them in with a squad and have a banshee squad ready to charge in while they jumped the bait. sure, they will retreat, but you have a breathing moment.

[Aokin]

Space Marine units though few are more resilient than Eldar counterparts. This makes a lot of skirmishes difficult to win for cost if the Space Marine can reduce any of your models whilst their units lose 40% health but no actual models. Assault Marines tend to exemplify this particular difference.

once they start appearing I will often cover my front Shuriken (the ASMs will be actively seeking targets) with another further behind. The moment you see or head the Assault Marines jumping select the exposed Shuriken and press "x". Unless the attack is largely unaided this is just the best method of preserving your units and at least forcing theirs to retreat or start taking penalties.

the important thing to understand is the unit values, if they have fielded two squads then that is 1100 requisition and 50 power. If there are Scouts with Shotguns (these are surprisingly effective) then assuming you have protected your main power node and have approximate resource points to the SM, you will reach tier 2 before they do.

I know not everyone endorses Wraithlords but under these conditions everything is going to flee, even if they manage to field an early Tactical Squad the Wraithlord should be able to endure one or two direct attacks before disrupting that specific unit. The moment it is seen press "z" and target the Tactical unit. With the Wraithlord demanding attention it is very easy and mostly safe to have Shurikens and other units follow closely behind.

[SteinerNein]

Wraithlords are not a good solution because of tactical marines.

Also, I wouldn't be so hasty to say hit the X button but begin to move your platform back to allow maximum suppression from the covering one. ASM jump isn't going to guarantee auto death to your plat.

Scouts with shotguns can be countered with Rangers (lolz) while staggered platforms counter ASM and so long as your platform(s) stand one more squad can be removed as well.

Eldar are micro intensive so expect to swap targets and rarely leave the AI to settle matters.

Since rangers have larger detection, it's up to you to use ranger + guard to negate the scouts, the platform kiting + positioning to negate the ASM and target switching to prevent the FC from hitting your rear platform and your own hero to lock up another squad or disrupt that squad.

You might not 'win' but you will come away with more req killed than lost which is what matters. Essentially, I am asking you to take a gamble.

At any rate, you'll still reach tier 2 but with tac squads on the field you really don't have more options but to get hit tier 3 or spam out more platforms/guardians.

[MIKE.MERCILESS]

Since Rangers are the same power and nearly 200 req cheeper, would these in supression mode act as a suitable counter?

[Goliath]

ASM's are troublesome. your best bet is to hope you have staggered squads of Guardians in cover, and hopefully your hero nearby, try and tie them up with your commander and use fleet of foot to make them chase around while you are pumping them full of plasma. alternatively upgraded banshees are actually quite a good counter.

[Octopus Rex]

ASMs are indeed something of a pain, though not as bad as they were in the beta. In my experience a solo platform doesn't do very well and backing it up with another is a good idea. However, this is kind of a waste of resources to some extent and two platforms can compromise your force's maneuverability somewhat.

Guardian grenades also the other known counter, but have drawbacks too. If the ASMs manage to avoid them then you've wasted your opportunity, and it's all too easy - what with the command lag in this game - for your guardians to throw the grenade at a spot where the ASMs used to be 2 seconds ago. Great.

Having your guardians spread out and not clustered together is always advised, but you then stand the risk of being too far away to quickly chuck a grenade without moving. Frequently the ASMs will be backed up with a freshly advanced HB and so leaving cover (eg to chuck a grenade) will leave you very vulnerable to suppression. Sometimes you can get away with retreating the platform, then dancing with the ASMs next victim while the other squads use embolden (and/or guide if you're into the farseer) to do some damage.

Quite a few options, none of them without drawbacks, and none a total no-brainer/requiring no skill or reflexes. I guess that's the way it should be really. :)

[SteinerNein]

Eldar has always been ... I dare say, skill abuse race. If your micro is godly then Eldar is the only race to play otherwise go back to Starcraft/SupCom.

@ Mike
Yes, I am one of the few people who swear by rangers. I use rangers/plats/guardian(s) with grenades along with hero abuse to ward off ASM/Tac/HB.

[theM]

Agreed with Steiner on the rangers. They're wonderfully effective for cost, and that cost is lot less than most of the other more effective tools in the Eldar arsenal.

As for platforms and ASMs... either move them occasionally, set up another to cover them, and/or use them as bait. You'll generally be able to retreat it and a mostly (or entirely) dead Shuriken Platform is a perfectly good deal for a mostly (or entirely) dead ASM squad - if you fail to kill them all, bonus points if one of the dead happens to be the Sergeant.

[ZabuzaNinja]

Retreating in the face of assault marines is still a dangerous move though. They Assaults have the ability to chase down and massacre your retreating units which, if they are expensive such as an upgraded ranger or banshee squad, can be a devastating hit. If assaults are suppressed can they still chase your squad into oblivion and then retreat back to their base for healing?

[Omegakai]

seriously thou . this is my biggest hang up with this game. i have noidea how to counter assault marines.
today i have my hero, 3 squads of guardians and a squad of banshees all upgraded vs 2 squads of Sm assault marines and got absolutely ass fucked in about 10 secs.
any one actually got a credible way to counter these.

[SteinerNein]

Improve your micro and prediction skills. That is what Eldar is all about right now and should be!

[Omegakai]

so your suggestion to help is "learn to play"
please sir where is this school of elite jerkism, surely this game isnt so broken as to not provide one faction with a counter to another factions units?
or perhaps this thread is not big enough for your ego ? and i should go start another "how to deal with ASm thread"
i have tried all the suggestions.
with no luck, i would like to know if their is a reliable tactic for beating assault marines, as none of the above could be counted as "reliable" and are more in the catagory of"if you get lucky"

Omega.

[Noble]

Lets take it down a notch. No need for anyone to get bent out of shape. :)

Perhaps a replay of guardians out-micro'ing some ASMs could be provided as example? SteinerNein is correct in that guardians can take out seemingly more powerful units with some careful and precise micromanagement, getting that across in text can be difficult though.

[KotCR]

Heh, just like DoW1 ;).

[Omegakai]

Indeed, but that side. they didn't design a game so that only the best of the best can play elder, and everyone is relegated to a backseat cast of "non micro" players.
surely there is some sort of same tier counter.
at first i thought it was banshees, but me and my anus were sadly mistaken.
then i thought wraithlords.... however the cost and speed to get out a wraith lord means thier are several heavy SM other units out first. Im looking of a reasonable, and reiable solution, rather then "learn to play noob" approach.


signed, Sadly disappointed at the game balance, and would return his game if he could get a refund(or didn't think the game had potential)

[Noble]

You are not going to find unit-for-unit counters in the Eldar army. The entire army is structured to use multiple units and unit abilities in concert to defeat much heartier opposing units. This requires substantial micro and knowledge of how the Eldar army works.

That's just the way that particular faction was designed. That said, it doesn't take that much effort to learn and improve your Eldar game. This isn't an unattainable level of play we are describing by any means, but it will require effort on your part to learn.

If a replay hasn't been posted by the time I get home tonight I'll try to remember to make one for ya and post it here.

[Omegakai]

and what is said combo for defeating the dreaded ASM

[c4dillon]

signed, Sadly disappointed at the game balance, and would return his game if he could get a refund(or didn't think the game had potential)

Just a thought, but have you spent any serious time playing online as SM? I didn't like the multiplayer balance either until I forced myself to start using units (and heroes) that at first didn't seem particularly good to me, and am doing much much better. Doing that with the races is an even better idea.

[Sin Fang Bous]

lol?

Are you suggesting that everyone ditch their favorite classes/races and force themselves to play as SM?

[jujumbura]

He's suggesting that you try using the races/units you don't normally use so that you gain a better understanding of how the game works. You may say "ZOMG ASM ARE IMBA", but if you actually try playing as SM and using ASM, you'll start to realize how good players deal with them. Then, you go back to your favorite race and utilize those tactics yourself.

It takes a lot of humility and patience, but if you really want to learn what beats what, it's the only way to go.

[RexFTW]

Put your ranger in 'supression' mode. this will auto pin the asm the moment they land. This way they will not be able to escape the grenades.

a side note, he does not have unbeatable units. he is simply building the counter to your units. if you make a bunch of weapons platforms his counter is ASM. do not keep making more grav platforms and expect to win lol!

[MeditationError]

This is going to sound weird, but it's worked for me: Embolden.

If I've got 3 guardian squads in the same area, and I pop embolden I come out on top.

This is a wildy cost-ineffective counter, but it's how my games frequently work out, and after being beat down once, the asms are a lot less aggressive.

Now, if I could only take care of the razorback that comes next...

[caiphas]

spam a lot of banshee's and hope you win

[MIKE.MERCILESS]

and what is said combo for defeating the dreaded ASM

Well I suggested it and a few people backed it up - you should try complimenting your army with Rangers to counter his Assault marines. They will be supressed in no time, and a surpressed melee unit isn't much use at all.

Plus you're doing this for 200 req cheaper each time you match an Assault squad with Ranger...

Or if you have an affectation for the Warlock, why not simply Warp Throw the assault marines into a fire lane when they land on top of your first Platform?

[SteinerNein]

so your suggestion to help is "learn to play"
please sir where is this school of elite jerkism, surely this game isnt so broken as to not provide one faction with a counter to another factions units?
or perhaps this thread is not big enough for your ego ? and i should go start another "how to deal with ASm thread"
i have tried all the suggestions.
with no luck, i would like to know if their is a reliable tactic for beating assault marines, as none of the above could be counted as "reliable" and are more in the catagory of"if you get lucky"

Omega.


Yes, that is always going to be my suggestion when it comes in this exact situation. Other race match ups not so much but Eldar is pretty micro intensive if you want to push to the top and stay at the top. That being said realize that the top Eldar players generally throw out nades and use 3x guardian without fail. This isn't an elitist attitude but a simple fact of a RTS. If you have the ee han timing combined with a little luck you'll land grenades with consistency. That being said, this game like most games have an element of luck. If you can't deal with that, go back to board games like Chess and Go.

I don't particularly care if you have tried your hardest. Very few people get rewarded for vain efforts while saying , " I did my best!" You either succeed or you don't. The key here is to work intelligently and just try to improve on whatever skills you have to make things work in your favor. We know grenades do it as a solid fact.

Rangers as others have suggested, myself included, are actually a bit of a crutch. The suppression doesn't always work immediately and requires good set ups. Set ups require a bit of luck and battle field prediction. The very same skill which is used for launching nades but to a lesser extent.

If anything , right now SM is the weakest ladder race at the highest level.

So before knee-jerking it, think things through and respond with clarity and an open mind. I and others like myself are not the Imperium , we promise not to Inquisition! =D

@RexFtw
Suppression depends on cover and how you land your shots. I think it's percentage based and may not auto pin as you have asserted. However, if you have 2x plat and 1x Ranger, he has to jump either your rangers or your plat. You can keep moving your plats back and delaying.

Another funny but ultimately stupid trick is to run your warlock head first into the enemy ASM and sap their energy with the merciless blade so they can't jump but wtf kind of tactic is that =P

[c4dillon]

lol?

Are you suggesting that everyone ditch their favorite classes/races and force themselves to play as SM?

As jujumbura below you followed-up, that is -exactly- what I'm suggesting.

The more intimately you know your opponent, the better you'll be able to predict their expected behaviors and responses. This is like war or games 101, man.

No, it's not easy, and it might not be fun, but staying closed-minded will only net you losses in the end, and make that learning MUCH slower. See it from a different perspective.

Or don't - I don't mind easy wins.

[SteinerNein]

Alternatively, you could brute force it but you need to be astute in your observations of damage and overall effectiveness and be open to trying new things within your race. However, that is a lot harder than switching back and forth between your favored race and your match up that's the most difficult.

[Valkadesh]

I've read through this whole thread, and I haven't found a good solution yet outside of obvious ones that assume your enemy is going to happily stay at range. The problem with assault jumpers is just that, they jump. I haven't found ANYTHING that counters them, because short of massively outnumbering them, they will simply jump into the group, hosing half of it in the process, then rip them apart before they take any appreciable damage. Saying "Use strategy, duh!" does not suggest that there is an actual counter for mass jump stomping.

[Malachi]

That's because they're currently unbeatable for cost (or even for comparable cost) with Eldar, if only your opponent knows what he's doing and can deal with combined platforms.

Personally, I'm waiting for the Eldar fix until I start playing the retail game at all.

[PzyCow]

I havent played elder myself since release, i play SM. and even though ASM is my primary used squad and great vs the eldar, they get shredded to pieces by shuriken cannons if they get caught in the arc. That usually happends when i jump a platform and theres another one further back covering it. Then ill have to get another asm squad to deal with the other plat, and its not always that easy to get a good jump if they are positioned well, or moved to another place since i last saw it.

Anyways the shurikens are what my ASM are most scared of untill the avatar (and D-cannons if used well) arrives.

<edit> in beta, 3-4 ranger squads were exellent at dealing with ASM, but with the new req system, that build is mostly useless now.

[Brenil]

Ideally it would seem the best counter to ASM would be Banshees + Warp Spiders, but seeing as Warp Spiders currently do rather poor damage, obviously that isn't a very good idea. Banshees do okay against them alone, but really need support to be able to stand toe to toe with them in Tier 1. In Tier 2 they can do better, but still typically need a helping hand.

I too have troubled over ASM; in of themselves they can be dealt with, the problem is they're rarely alone, so you must deal with them in your midst and the rest of the Space Marines' force as well; that's where the real problem comes to the fore.

[SteinerNein]

WAT? I JUST USE WRAITHLORDS TO COUNTER ASM LOL.

Seriously, I am a man of trends and how did I not notice the tech marine player reach top 10 ?!

I think we have a big clue as to what to do now. =p (vs ASM!)

[PzyCow]

hmm wraithlords would work well against a single asm squad, but multiple squads with some melta bombs will take down the WL fast.

[SteinerNein]

+1 Wraithlord per ASM!

Easy solution!

And then use Farseer for hilarity .


See replay for hilarity:
http://files.filefront.com/Average+is+Averagerec/;13363790;/fileinfo.html

This is what happens when you take a high tier nid and have them play SM and then combine with a low skilled Eldar messing around with the Farseer. You get ASM which get used decently and you get some comedy.

[Jester Desu]

Why has nobody said Fleet of Foot yet?

First, I don't use platforms... they outlive their usefulness towards the end of tier 1 against any army with my playstyle as they are too slow, making them too vunerable. If you use platforms, expect trouble from ASM's as they are an incredibly good, yet expensive counter to them.

Any enemy ASM's only really have my guardians as squishy targets with absence of platforms. When I see or hear their packs igniting Im ready to hit fleet of foot on whatever their target unit is and also begin to shift click like crazy, building up 10 or so zig-zagging way points leading the ASM's (who usually chase quite comically) progressively further away from the rest of their army and usually further into my crossfire. A bad SM player will lose their very expesive unit here, a good player will either try to run them away (still suffering at least 1 casualty usually) or they will advance the rest of their army forwards to support... a counter to which is me moving my line away from them. The shift clicking on targetted unit enables u to effectively micro the other units and if ASM's change their target u can always do exactly the same in reverse. I don't really use nades on ASM's unless it's when they first jump in and waste time with their stomp. I prefer to keep the nades for use on shooting units.

It appears a lot of players are actually asking for a single eldar infantry unit to counter ASM which just isn't fair. ASM's cost a horrendous amount of req and aren't cheap on power either. If you think about it too, they are 3 meter tall 400 pound battle conditioned psycotic religous zealots, wearing half a tank with jet packs attached and wielding weapons as big as a banshee (the whole banshee)... They are meant to kick the crap into any eldar 1 on 1, thats why they're so damn expensive!

Use your pace as your key strength as Eldar.

[ZabuzaNinja]

Thanks Jester, that actually looks like some good advice, I'll try it out next game I play, I have been moving toward non-platform tier 1 as well. They are becoming too much of a hassle to babysit for the one or two squads they manage to suppress in their lifetime.

[Jester Desu]

Lol yeah I know what you mean... their lifetime is until the first dreadnaught with a hard-on decides to stomp all over them :D

[thegreatbooha]

Don't blob your units, spread them out.

Use rangers.

Get at least one squad of shees, they will be useful if you go vehicles, to take out ML squads.

[Inst]

Regarding ranger suppression, the problem with ranger suppression is that it doesn't reduce the melee firing rate, only the melee movement speed. It will help if you're doing the asinine guardian spam, but it won't save your platforms or bail out your shees.

What annoys me about ASMs is that shuricans, which is supposed to be a hard counter to melee, only soft counter ASMs. It could be argued that this is ASM design, that they are only soft-countered by heavy weapons teams, but it's annoying as Eldar thus has no way to shut down ASM mass, and thus Eldar has to use crap like guardian mass.

[SteinerNein]

@ Inst

Reduce enemy DPS by moving then re-engaging. Half their squad won't get into HtH .

And to beat ASM mass throw more plats at them ! 270 per x2 vs 550 25 power ! He who best manages spam shall win!

[Inst]

Nice micro solution for say, shee use.

Also, Platspam just to stop ASM spam is stupid. I know SM*is an expensive race, but at least I want to be able to force my SM opponent to build other units to counter my counter. Otherwise it's boring: I'd rather be reading that book from some GWU political scientist I just bought.

[SteinerNein]

How dare you, Inst!

The best way to win is by spamming them to death! Make the game so miserable that all they get are ASM and have no energy to tech then suddenly a wraithlord appears and it's gg!

Didn't you learn from Starcraft? You can never have enough dragoons/reavers ! Dragoons are your wraithlords and reavers are your platforms! It makes perfect sense! AHHH MOTHERLAND!

[Logic_Bomb]

All the answers to ASM are already in this thread - it's all in the execution and situation. In this battle with your eldar units vs. ASM, having the right units (banshees, guardians and nades, shurikens, rangers) is only part of it - it's combining them and getting that synergy - I think eldar is about synergy the most - even though tyranid synapse is "synergistic" too - eldar is really the definition of this word...

[SteinerNein]

It really has to do with your battle prediction skeeelz !

[thegreatbooha]

In T2
Use Farseer + Levitation Blade + Something else getting in free shots againsts ASM
Use Warlock + Ethereal Slash

[Malachi]

All the answers to ASM are already in this thread - it's all in the execution and situation. In this battle with your eldar units vs. ASM, having the right units (banshees, guardians and nades, shurikens, rangers) is only part of it - it's combining them and getting that synergy - I think eldar is about synergy the most - even though tyranid synapse is "synergistic" too - eldar is really the definition of this word...Agreed, thou it's just another way of saying: "The unit (ASM) cannot be directly countered, there is no hard counter for it, so you have to use many different ones in combination and outmicro your opponent just to beat him masssing this one unit."

[Jester Desu]

Ugh...once again... There isn't an Eldar infantry 1v1 solution to ASM... Banshee are closest we get but they are cheaper than ASM for a start and they are still Eldar in the end of the day... armour like paper and barely enough hit points to stand up to an Ork farting in their general direction.

Yes, the only way to beat ASM is to hit them with a vehicle, hero sometimes (not reccomended) or to use a couple of units. 2 Guardians should rape an ASM squad without a single model loss if used right and that's a fairly comparitive power/req cost. If an SM player has invested his early game economy into an ASM squad, he either has no tacticals or if he does have both, you should already be in tier 2... roll out the tanks/walkers and watch them run away from you.

Space Marines infantry is incredibly powerful. They are fekin space marines what do you expect? Eldar vehicles own space marines vehicles tho. Have you guys ever noticed the "falcoln owns hero then kills my dreadnaught who couldn't even catch it threads?"

[Inst]

Falcon incidentally, is damn fragile for cost without holofield research.

I can't believe people are advising vehicles against ASM mass, which comes with melta bombs in tier 2.

Personally, all things considered, the best solution against ASM mass is guardian mass. It's pretty ridiculous that Eldar will end up massing their T0 unit, but what can you do. Grenade+retreat when they get in close, use embolden to increase firepower, and so on.

[Jester Desu]

ASM are not a problem for a mobile army. They can't catch u and spend too much time swinging their swords around and yelling whilst your pretty eldar guardians are prancing and skipping about and STILL shooting back at them!

Falcon is fire support, but it has a ridiculously high (though not imba) movement speed, double that of space marines dready. Used properly it cannot be destroyed... just like your squishy little guardians who manage to survive into tier 3 apparently against all odds!

with holo field falcoln gets even more impressive, but even t2 it rocks. I haven't tested, but does a melta kill it in 1? think about quite how much it costs to build an ASM then upgrade it to use meltas? (figures please somebody because I can't remember them and cannot just load the game up to check whilst i'm at work!)

I know the req is pushing 650 or so, compared to falcon cost of 375. The pop impact of ASM is 15 too, compared to falcon's 12. I don't expect power for ASM's with upgrades to be as much as 95 but bet it isn't far off. they should at least be able to scratch a vehicle for that cost lol.

[Inst]

In the short term, two melta bombs should sink the falcon. In the long term, other units should be used to engage the falcon.

Especially when compared to the razorback, I'm not impressed by the Falcon Grav Tank. It's something you build against vehicles, but especially against SM, who have 3 units with at least stopgap AV (tacs, plasdevs, and ASMs) in tier 2, that are commonly used (I'm looking at you, WS haywire gren), I have no confidence.

[W1r3d]

I have a question.

Seeing as how the assult marines are a pain in the ass to kill. But they are quite possible to kill. Given the right circumstances.
Granted that they have a lot of armor and HP. I have found that rangers in houses mixed with guardians and shuri plats workes really well. However, i run into a problem lategame. If the space marine is smart he slaughters what he can with his ASMs and then retreats. With the ASMs high health and armor he hardly looses a unit. Whereas the eldar loosed a fair bit more.

The next time i run into them they have a squad leader and are supported by yet another ASM squad. Eaven though you pin them with supression from rangers and shuri plats. they still manage to jump around like crazy.

Basically i end up retreating with my entire army. More then often because by the time it takes one shuriplat to realign is the time the ASMs need to slaughter one. And boom they are airborn. Leapfrogging around. Suddenly it's the other way around. You are left pumping out troops to try to counter his ASMs and him from capping everything on the map with his shotgun equippd scouts. Then his dreadnaughts/ Razorbacks appear. Then it's GG.

Brightlance plats get raped by ASMs, while razorbacks/dreadnought close in and deal with the rest. So now i'm trying to outmicro infantry and vehicles.

So my question is kinda. How do you counter a race where each units strenght is that is can hold it's own. With a race where no unit can hold it's own. Eldar ranged damage increase is necessary imo. As of now i've seen SM, Orc, nids casually capping a point with one or eaven two of my guardian squads shooting at them.

I'm loosing faith in this race...however not enough to stop trying to play them. I shall overcome this obstacle.

[Foxracer007]

This is really hard to pull of, but a warlock with warp gloves and 2 shuri plats will stop asms. You have to kinda search for them in the vicinity of your shuri plats, then as soon as possible, use warp gloves to throw them within range and then start to wreck them.

[bixel]

I have W1r3d's problem, if they come at me with SM (any infantry except scout), into my position I may have a platform, banshee and 2 guardian, the most damage I do is about 40% of their health - none of their units die and I will probably lose half of the guardian squad or the platform.

SM hero comes in charges the platform - I have to flee the platform, but the retreating SMs are turning around and killing my guardians. My banshees are down to 2/5 and I am all retreating.

If I am unlucky I lost a whole unit, forcing me to make another level, meanwhile both enemy SM hero and SM infantry gain a level, regen their hit points and take the point. Of which without another banshee unit or Walker (I don't have) the point cant be retaken.

By the time I get another Walker out the SM teched up to metabombs, the Walker cant retreat fastenough and all my units have died.

I know you guys talk about good playing and timing, but the fact is is the enemy is DECENT (I mean almost carelessly decent) ok what I am saying is

NOOBISH SM decimates NOOBISH Eldar
NOOBISH SM > Experienced Eldar
NOOBISH SM on par with Elite Eldar player

Eldar have serious handicaps. Especially when Marines are in the building covering that Point (you know which map, desert 3x3). Eldar nades are too short range and ineffective against hard cover. I have to lob 2 nades + continuos fire into that building to even hope I can kill a SM squad there before they get reinforcements or their Hero wanders in and decimates my 2 Guardian squads that are both down to 2/5 at this point.

[Brenil]

NOOBISH SM decimates NOOBISH Eldar
NOOBISH SM > Experienced Eldar
NOOBISH SM on par with Elite Eldar player

First example, maybe, there's varying degrees of newness. The other two are just plain false. SM aren't as competitive as Eldar right now because they have a skill ceiling cap due to their low numbers and varying deficenies compared to other races that can be better explained by someone higher ranked than I am.

Eldar are more squishy than SM, true, but Eldar are also:

A) Cheaper.
B) Have better vehicles.
C) Have better disruption.
D) Quicker.
E) Have great cappers which double as mainline infantry. (Guardians)
F) Have more utility buffs/debuffs.


Eldar nades are too short range and ineffective against hard cover.

Plasma grenades are the same range as all grenades and they counter cover, they aren't ineffective against cover. Cover isn't taken into account when you throw a grenade into it; that's its primary use. Just because one plasma grenade doesn't annihilate a Tactical squad doesn't mean it is 'ineffective'. Plasma grenades suppress, do large AoE damage, and knockback. Not bad for a Tier 1 ability from mainline infantry.

SM are by no means a cake walk for Eldar, but they're hardly impossible to beat. Their low numbers, slow movement, lack of buffing abilities, so-so vehicles, and weak capping unit (which they must rely on to win) equate to Eldar having the potential (once the player realizes it) to always having map control and the ability to push on SM every instance.

SM right now is probably the most balanced race with a couple exceptions and as a result are probably one of the weakest races in competitive play. Once other races are balanced around SM (it has be balanced around something), then we'll see things even out.

Yet your continued lamenting posts about how seriously fucked Eldar are against everything from a cat with a squeaky toy to a scout with a shotgun don't really amount to much because alot of what you're saying quite simply isn't true once you learn more about them.

Eldar have some problems, yes; but most of them revolve around the Warlock's monopoly in 1vs1, Warp Spiders' ranged damage, and Banshees' fragility. If those were fixed, Eldar would be just fine.

[bixel]

Maybe I shoulda clarified. When I put this down;

NOOBISH SM decimates NOOBISH Eldar
NOOBISH SM > Experienced Eldar
NOOBISH SM on par with Elite Eldar player

the eldar can still win the match - In fact I do. Its the losses I suffer that is appalling and I normally only win the match by a hairline - only cause I rushed and retake points and my team was able to defend the points we have (Eldar cant defend). But the losses I suffer and the downtime of replenishing units its like

killed = 8
lost = 52

and that's when I win the match.

[Jester Desu]

Eldar aren't as noob friendly because of their low hit points and paper thin armour. ASM can be tricky too, but that's about all I agree with.

As said already, engage ASM with Wraiths. The ASM are so expensive that if a commander has fielded 2 squads early game the only other thing he is likely to have is commander with scouts.

@ w13rd.
you said that even under supression from a Ranger and a platform some ASM were still jumping around like crazy... are we talking in the beta at some time here? Seriously, ASM jump is a one way ticket now, they don't even have enough energy to use it to escape most of the time. Supression simply makes them useless too, I don't see how what you said could have been possible.

Space marine infantry are tough... deal with it. They aren't able to field as many units... their units have smaller squad sizes and they are masssively expensive to build and reinforce. Their vehicles are utter sh**, stompy the dreadnaught is too slow for any of the Eldar vehicles and the Razorback in a 1v1 with a Falcon is an extremely fast fight.

@ bixel.
Force commander rushes platform, so you shoot with platform + the 2 guardian squads you said you have = dead commander. If he ever gets close to the plat (not likely under all that fire) then engage with your hero in melee... and under that level of fire it really doesn't even matter who your hero is. Only a noob space marine rushes his hero into that kind of trouble.

Whilst this is going on you can send your banshee to flank using FOF from the direction of the SM escape route (hit any HB he has with them first) you can then move guardians forward to nade the crap out of any other units still not engaged. I would consider not using banshee though and rush to tier 2 like most eldar players.

You have a higher natural movement speed than space marines + you get FOF... if your units are still dieing then you need to micro better and keep them out of trouble. They're really quite good at that.

[tw.ed.uk]

Speaking not as a 1337 player, but as someone who has watched replays of good Eldar players against good SM players:

It seems that a certain amount of rapage of your guardians by ASM is inevitable in tier 1. All you can really do is try to avoid losing whole squads, and try to retain some points until you hit tier 2. If your opponent goes for 2 x ASM, it may work in your favour as he delays his progression to tier 2.

That Umpire1 chap seems to know what he's doing. Find the replay where he beats a SM player (by a whisker) who fields a couple of squads of ASM. He doesn't have a magic tactic; he just takes his losses in tier 1 and outplays his opponent when he hits tier 2.

[Jester Desu]

By the time an ASM squad has been built, an Eldar player can be quite a lot on his way to, if not already at tier 2. This plus having at least 2 guardians with wargear and a platform : )

[Mithie]

Another funny but ultimately stupid trick is to run your warlock head first into the enemy ASM and sap their energy with the merciless blade so they can't jump but wtf kind of tactic is that =P

This is top 10 thinking right here.


Basically i end up retreating with my entire army. More then often because by the time it takes one shuriplat to realign is the time the ASMs need to slaughter one. And boom they are airborn. Leapfrogging around. Suddenly it's the other way around. You are left pumping out troops to try to counter his ASMs and him from capping everything on the map with his shotgun equippd scouts. Then his dreadnaughts/ Razorbacks appear. Then it's GG.

That's why when you go up vs. marines, you HAVE to play around his ASMs. You know with 100% certainty he's going to have ass marines out on the field at about the 50-60 power mark (depending on the map), so DON'T BUILD PLATS, or if you do, hope the SM player is retarded enough not to check for the covering plat before jumping on your front plat.

I don't like rangers. Tried them; by the time their suppression really kicks in, I've already forced the ASM to retreat or they've forced me to give up the point. They're great for uncovering scouts, but once again, if you take my advice of not building plats vs SM, scouts are less of a problem.

Guardians are the way to go. Guardians with fof runs circles around ASMs, and after they blow their first jump, it's going to be a while before they can jump again. I've just watched a friend of mine using fortuned banshees to rip up TWO squads of ASMs with amazing nade micro from 2 guardians. Since I never go FS, I can't testify to how well it actually works, but I guess it's something to try.

[canadin]

In my opinion, ASM are overpowered, they can break any defence, jump to smash away units, the captain hits like a truck, and they rip down retreating units -somethign little else does.

but I ahve found 2 things htat can be done to get them, 1, lure them with anything, then retreat it, this may be costly, but have em run into 2 untis of spore mine, which wen detonated simultaneously kill all 4 marines instantly.

This costs 200 req and 30 energy, 240 for bait (which sometimes lives) in the end, even if the bait dies to mines Im still under cost for ASM.

The other is setting up 1 turret as bait, and a 2nd turret to cover 1st one to blast em after its jumped

[Jester Desu]

Your'e in the Eldar forum. We don't have bubble bombs. Tyranids actually have a number of rather powerful units that can counter Ass Marines.

[Incarnum]

Overpowered. Seems to be what most new Eldar players say about pretty much any race. Yet there are plenty of people in the higher echelons of the ladder playing Eldar. How'd they get there if everything is OP vs Eldar, guys?

Really, the OP tag needs to be tossed around less. I suck at this game w/ Eldar. Seriously, go check out the replays if you think I'm joking. That being said, I know it's because I've been outplayed 95% of the time, not because "<X> is OP!!"

FFS, do some research, play a bunch of games, and get better. Or go play the OP race, and we'll read your complaints when you hit that forum saying "OMG!! Fortune-shees are OP!"

As to the actual topic at hand, I find distracting the ASM with a GU squad then nading the shit out of it is a fairly good tactic for them. You kill more req pnts worth than you lose, that way, if you're microing the guardian squad decently.

I rarely use platforms other than brightlances (for quick razorback players) against SM, because they're too static. SM have three good counters to them, from my point of view: infiltrated scouts, ASM, and Plasma Devs. With that many counters at their disposal (you know they'll use at least one of them) it seems like a waste of req to build them.

[Sithdemon]

The warlocks immolate and warp throw are perfect counters to even 2 squads of assault marines.

With a few guardians, all you have to do is not cluster them up. if they land on just one squad, a few will die, but the other squads can fire at them and do decent damage. once you've lost 2-3 from the squad that got landed on retreat. but if possible nade just before doing that. The nade even if it's not dead on, will mess up the assault marines good.

For the farseer there is two build orders for me, and thus two ways of dealing with assault with her as a commander.

If I get banshees, need fortune, then doom, then mind war last. bait with both farseer and banshees. fortune who ever gets landed on, that should buy you a few seconds more with that squad, if it's your farseer, and she's leveled up a time or two, then she can probably slug it out, and if you kite her back if her health it low, she'll probably survive just fine with out a retreat. banshees 2-3 might die. retreat if your not that far otherwise keep them around if possible just to help out.

With rangers, Doom, then mind war, then fortune. with her ranged buff off the bat, it's all about baiting with the farseer, and having the rangers and guardians pick them off as soon as they land, walk the farseer out even if stunned. I usually have 3 guardians with either build order, between them and the rangers theres alot of ranged damaged coming in from a decent distance away, heck they get shot in the air if close enough, and for a ranged buffed ranger, almost everything is close enough. Doom to just bring them down even quicker, and fortune anyone that gets jumped.

I'm personally 15-21 with eldar, but a few of those losses are from people dropping, or just team mates not really holding there own. I do better with SM my self, apoth especially like 25-19, but I had played more with SM and orcs in the beta, some eldar. When you get eldar working for you they are great. Tyranids can be a issue, but grandes, immolate, warp throw, prism tanks, and D cannons are all great anti clusters weapons. and using feints, and pulling the tyranid swarm apart will show you that nothing is that OP.

Personally I think nothing is OP, some things are just more difficult to figure out how to counter, and some things do take good microing aka typing skills.

[ViS]

Another funny but ultimately stupid trick is to run your warlock head first into the enemy ASM and sap their energy with the merciless blade so they can't jump but wtf kind of tactic is that =P

I can't believe everyone ignored this. This + Rangers on suppression has been my miracle counter to ASM since the start of retail.

[XTopher/Plan B]

The level of silliness being shown here is exapserating. SM vs Eldar seems to be one of the easier matches for the Eldar player to win.

Why has no one made mention of the hero units? If you're using the Farseer, Doom on the ASMs and fortune on a banshee squad. Watch those ASMs drop. Remember, with SM, for every unit you kill, you're dealing massive economic damage. Even if you kill one ASM while losing 3 guardians, you've won that battle.

Warlock functions as a fantastic tank against ASM. Give him a Merciless Witchblade (high damage single strikes = dead marines) and some Champion's Robes for his bubble. He'll kill more marines than just about any other hero I've seen, and look cool while doing it.

I've never considered rangers, maybe they're a good answer, but I've found that having one unit JUST to supress ASMs is counter productive. Lets face it, they're not going to kill a marine in one shot, and as a result seem kind of useless. I'd rather have banshees in with my warlock than rangers pretending to be useful.

If you're using the WSE, the only thing I can really hope for you is that you manage to kill his power, and get to tier 2 first. His entanglement wargreat will keep ASMs in place and maybe you can make use of that timing. The downside is that the ASM can JUMP out of it, so hope your opponent doesn't realize that.

Levitation blade? Really? Keep doom on ASMs rather than that weapon, you'll thank yourself in the long run.

[ViS]

Rangers will keep the drained ASM perma-locked out of battle. Your opponent will either have to expose his units to Gu fire and nades by going for the Rangers which can run away anyway or retreat.

[Malecite]

ASM seem drawn to plats the way a fly enjoys the company of a bug zapper. I always incorporate 1 - 2 plats in my army so using a forward one as bait or building a rear one to cover it are no big deal. I often use their plat fixation against them and suppress with rangers or just nade the shit out of the plat they jump at.

If you have your GU spread out then this shouldn't be a problem.

I seem to get the impression that recently converted space marine players are wowed by the fact that you actually have to micro the eldar. YES GUESS WHAT your going to have to use a combo of your units to win in ANY situation. ASM are annoying, I personally hate them, but they can be dealt with in all of the manners stated above.

[Jester Desu]

ASS marines as well as all marines have a bit too much hp for their cost. Hopefully they will get cost increased or hp lowerd BUT... for the time being supression is key. Fight like Eldar not stoopid hooman.