Shootas or Sluggaz?

[Demonic Spoon]

Normally, I start with two extra shootas after getting my first squad. It's true they die horribly in melee, but my first slugga squad + The knockback/stun abilities on Kommando Nob are usually enough to keep them away. In turn, they do some epic damage.

However, most people seem to prefer almost all sluggaz, with a couple shootas backup. Why?



Also, sidenote: Does anyone know the exact bonuses given by a waaagh, or at least how potent it is?

[Latias418]

Waaaaagh! (http://www.dow2db.com/ability/pvp/race_ork/ork_waaagh_shout)

Personally I skip shootas altogether. Sluggas and stikkbombas are both amazing, while I'd put shootas as just good.

[LandShark]

i go a 2 shoota start sometimes. fast big shootas. they put out tremendous focus fire damage.

[Killer Of Many]

If I'm warboss then I go all sluggas and stikkbombas but if I'm kommando or mek boy I go dual shootas and maybe a stikkbomma if I don't get big shootas on both. Warboss with bosspole needs sluggas to get the most of it, but with mekboy I use the machine gun to supress and the shootas to gun em down and with kommando I flank with the Kommando and keep the shootas in cover shootin em down. And I hope that the sluggas can hold the line in cc

[streak]

I find the mekboy is good for pinning down squads for your sluggas to chase down. Set up mekboy -> teleport into direction of enemy -> suppress and hunt down with sluggas

[Frosty]

I've pretty much stopped building shootas altogether because they are usually getting overwhelmed by melee units way too easily, even with cover, kiting and Waaaaagh! . Sluggas + stikkbombaz seem like the more reliable combination.

[LandShark]

starting army kommando nob, 2 shootas, slugga, stickbomba.

upgrade the stun nade for the stickbombas. then as you get the power, get upgrade to big shootaz.

When he tries to charge you. toss your kommando nob nade in front of your guys so he runs into it. follow up with stickbomba bombs. then charge your melee in. toss the stun bomb at anything ranged and proceed to mop up squads so they can reinforce.

ignore heros. costs more to replace a squad than a hero.

That is my build against nids for early game. it actually works against everyone though. it wont work with other commanders than the kommando well though.

[Demonic Spoon]

Right. The Kommando's stopping powers (Booby traps, stickibombz, stun nades, shotgun blast) are all amazing at keeping enemies away from your shootas.

[HiveMind]

Shoota Boyz can't kill retreating units. I haven't played MP since the beta (been too busy campaigning), but in my experience then a Slugga mass could easily mob a commander and stop him from escaping. Also, Slugga boyz are much more Orky and less weedy.

[LandShark]

the most you need to mob a commander is 2. any more than that and you have tuns of sluggas just standing around asking to get aoe damage from something.

mixing in shootas allows you to further focus fire units.

for people who dont know, and never take the time to try out different things. the big shoota puts out awesome damage, and it has the range of a a weapons team. you are only hurting yourself if you dont build atleast 1 of these guys.

[NoneSuch]

The problem is your handicapping yourself by building a shoota squad instead of a slugga squad early on. If your against an ork player who builds 3 slugga's he'll tie up that shoota squad in melee and anhilate you.

The big shoota is nice there's no denying that but it's not going to be very useful if you're getting a choppa in your squads face. The suppression ability also takes a good while to activate and usually a squad will be ontop of you before it goes into effect.

[LandShark]

I spank many many orks that go 3 slugga.

kommando nob will stop anything that attempts to get to your shootas. then my first 20 power goes to a big shoota, a slugga attempting to close the range of your shoota squad with a big shoota from hwt range will cause that squad to retreat before it gets close enough.

The bane of a 2 slugga 1 shoota build is a 1 slugga 2 shoota build, which oddly enough is beaten by the 3 slugga build.

there is no magic build in this game. its about tactics and skill of the player to make things work.

[NoneSuch]

I agree that no build "wins" outright but I've never seen a shoota squad able to mow down a full slugga squad with it's upgrade before they get into killing distance. Kiting works but your accuracy will be so reduced you won't be dealing much damage.

Why wouldn't the slugga's just ignore the kommando nob and attack the shootas? The only way he could stop them is by stunning them but that only works if your enemy doesn't react in time.

[LandShark]

you throw the grenade in front of the charging mob so they run into it, or back off. a tactical used commonly against assault troops in coh.

the range of the big shoota is the same as the range on the loota, dev squad, and shruk platform. and it is just as accurate at all ranges. You are telling me that your sluggas can make it from 1 side of the screen to the other under fire from a kommando nob + big shoota squad, dodge a stun grenade and still be able to get into melee combat with enough men to fight effectively?

Now if you use 1 slugga to flank my shootas, that means its my 3 squads against your 2 squads while the other attempts to flank. that gives my troops the edge in the first battle causing more casualties, then as you get your sluggas into melee range, im going to retreat first, losing 0 or 1 shoota, but having caused excessive casualties on your other 2 slugga squads forcing atleast 1 to retreat and giving my sluggas another advantage.

Call it theory craft, but this is what i do consistantly over and over. at TS 32 i think i have a good grasp of the game.

its all about tactics and using your troops accordingly. If you cant handle the micro of a shoota squad, then maybe you are best off with 3 slugga squads.

[BarxBaron]

Landshark you have some good points but I think you are leaving your opponent's hero out the equation.

I find most of my opponents send their heros at my shoota squads to tie them up. I only make 1 shoota at start max nowadays due to melee overwhelming/hero tie ups.This one shoota squad is great for making people run around in circles and into my kommando nades, etc. :)

When your opponent only has 1 ranged squad and rest melee ppl usually focus on the range as they are often weaker...I try to use this fact to my advantage.

Doesn't always work out the way I want tho ;)

[cyborgZero]

here is a good tip:

When facing SM or Eldar, always get a shoota and upgrade them to suppress the FC, Apoth, or Warlock.

[Dragonpower666]

I have a question, it's better the flamer's slugga or the big shoota?

[PlasmaSargeant]

Personally, I think two slugga squads is enough. The rest I cap out with stikkabombas and tankbustas, or some additional shootas.


So... build order:

Slugga (x1)
Shoota (x1)
then gens...
Stikkabombas (x2-3)
then t2 (always if SM or eldar, occasionally with Orks or Tyranid)
at t2 get a tankbusta squad (deff dread only useful against eldar and other orks, use sparingly)
t3 you're going to want to get 2 nob squads (only 1 if using kommando squads) and skip looted tanks, they're big, they're vulnerable, and they're slow.


then strategically reinforce all your squads and retreat them before they die to reach their full melee/ranged capabilities. It also helps management-wise, and three fully upgraded squads can beat 4 or 5 standard teams anyway.

[Dragonpower666]

i agree

1 Slugga
1 Shoota
gen
Stikkabombas
bigshoota
power
then t2 and t3
nob squad with upgrade.

If there are so many vehicle remain in t2 with some deff and/or tankbusta
t3
nob squad

[GRIM Ripper]

I have a question, it's better the flamer's slugga or the big shoota?

totally depends.

the burna will blow units out of buildings AND it increases that sluggas damage from 17 dps to 45 dps. this is a huge melee boost. additionally, it grants them a 1.25 damage bonus to heavy infantry (nobz and warriors), bringing that to about 56 dps vs those targets.

big shootas have very high range, can suppress, and do pretty decent damage (great vs weaker units like gaunts, eldar, other orks, or single heroes). vs heavy targets like tacs and nid warriors, big shootas will not be that great.

as for whether to go shootas or not, my rule of thumb is, get them vs eldar and other orks, not so much vs nids and SM. if i DO get them vs those races, it is almost EXCLUSIVELY to target and kill their heroes. 2 squads of big shootas EXCEL at killing heroes. try it sometime.

[Mokino]

Flamers work great against tyranids, but that's really the only time I use them.

[Fat_Bloke]

Have checked up on what grim said. Burnas do indeed grant a massive buff to mellee dps. I cant see why not to get them, it requires a little more micro but the benefits seem more than enough.

[Dragonpower666]

ok thanks! im going to try 2 Shoota with big shoota and only one slugga without burna. recently i use the kommando...it's fine!

[OVFellblade]

the burna will blow units out of buildings AND it increases that sluggas damage from 17 dps to 45 dps. this is a huge melee boost. additionally, it grants them a 1.25 damage bonus to heavy infantry (nobz and warriors), bringing that to about 56 dps vs those targets.
When you say 'increases that Sluggas damage from 17 to 45 dps' do mean just the slugga(s) that are visually armed with Burnas, or do you mean the damage of every Slugga in the squad?

[Goobers]

Just the two visibly armed with Burnaz. They however are always the last to die, and contribute about 5 boyz worth of damage.

[OVFellblade]

mmmm.... interesting. Thank you for the prompt response.

[Skarmory the PG]

...damn. Now that's a hard decision. More micro for more damage.

[H3R3TIC]

I have a question, it's better the flamer's slugga or the big shoota?

The only problem I have with flamers is that your squad becomes shooty because the flamer makes contact with the enemy first. Thus, every time I have a slugga squad with a flamer attached I have to micro them into melee.

But the damage bonus you speak of makes me torn. AGGGHH!!! :banghead:

[cyborgZero]

I think the burna upgrade could stall your teching to t3 to get those fast Nobz to compensate for the crappy t2, BUT they negate the ability of eldar/SM to run away from your melee into a building. It becomes a nightmare when they micro between building, plus it would help with dancing units, as flame would hurt a lot more than those pee shooter guns.

I usually get one burna upgrade if my opponent insists on spamming dev squads and sending them into buildings.

[whatsleft]

big shoota are great against eldar and sm, burnas are not worth usually since they get shot off by mass ranged fire and a plus point, big shootas can get them where they cant get you and provides a little suppression ability.

i wish aiming wotz dat worked like riflemen bar's suppression.

i dont especially get burnas since i use kommando nob, the shotgun is more worth the cost imo.

and about units in buildings, dont throw them inside the building, throw them on the enterance/exit instead, the AOE will still take out units inside the building(provided the building is small) and he cannot dodge nades by ungarrisoning the building, a win win for you.

[JaxGaret]

Look a little more closely at the Burna Melee stats:

http://dowcodex.com/Weapon:Burna_Melee

They listed the DPS wrong on the main weapons list. It's 22.5 DPS (against infantry), not 45. The Burna Melee as compared to the Choppa does 33% more DPS to infantry, a little over 2x DPS to heavy infantry and 2x DPS to commanders and vehicles.

So while it is a buff, it's not as much as posted above, particularly against normal infantry.