Is Ravener Alpha Overpowered?

[Owa]

Why they may be overpowered

1. Tunnels move units instantly
2. Teammates can use tunnels (This basically requires 1 tunneler per team to win vs)
3. Units are able to hide in tunnels instantly
4. By default AI does not attack tunnels
5. Do tunnels even show up on minimap? Very hard to hunt down and kill either way.

Why they may not be overpowered

1. They are weaker than the other tyranid heroes (I'm guessing/hoping)
2. Tyranids are supposed to be a mobile army according to TT
3. Unable to spam create tunnels

I have not played the Ravener myself, my teammates usually play it. I doubt it's OP in 1v1. My tyranid teammates common comment while learning to play tyranids is "wait...they can do WHAT? HAHAHAHA" (The laughter is from the appearance of OP and glee at the prospect of instant pwning everything).

[GrimDark]

So your problem is with tunnels... And not with Webway gates?
They are pretty much the same thing, only cheaper and with limitation that they can be only created where the hero is.

[LandShark]

they are fine. they show up on the minimap, and you get 25 waagh/zeal or whatever for destroying them.

if you are going up against the rav you just need to alter your strategy. static emplacements are not going to work against.

1 thing you can do is position your heavy weapons teams behind the rest of your army, so that it looks like he can pop up for an ambush. Then when he does it, you just suppressed everything, proceed to toss all your grenades and other aoe weapons and watch as you just used his commander against him.

an unconventional commander sometimes requires unconventional tactics.

[Oxyminoan]

I do think it pretty hilarious that the most mobile army in the game (sorry, eldar...go play with your 3 stationary platforms) also has the tunneling ability.

Tunnels have a load time just like an APC, though the unload is instant (why can't we have tunnel unloading code for APCs, Relic?). It's not difficult to destroy these tunnels, even without AV fire. They have very little HP. If you have a Ravener tunneling all over the map and you let the tunnels stand, you deserve to have a ripper in the face.

That being said, I'm happy people are playing Raveners instead of exploiting Hive Tyrant with VC and brood nest. Any incentive to get people away from that monstrosity is a plus, IMO. ;)

[Demonic Spoon]

haven't seen the issue myself.

The Hive Tyrant has its monstrous direct combat power. The Lictor Alpha has its stealth and the wtfomgnasty things it can do out of stealth (Suppressing entire groups, reinforcing nearby nids, etc).

Given that the tunnels show up on the minimap and have only 250 hp, the ravener doesn't seem that bad really.

[c4dillon]

Every one of your points against is related to tunnels, which are far too easy to kill AND see to be remotely considered OP. Ravener is really nasty (imo) with the speed increase and melee attacks that slow - most heroes can't even retreat fast enough to not get killed on the way back to base.

Hardly OP though, considering the other two great options.

[Engine]

I play Ravener, and I can assure you he's the best Tyranid hero, and certainly overpowered. However, he requires T2 to be effective at anything other than tunneling and harassment - he's got a great default ranged attack, but can be tied up by anyone who knows what they're doing.

At T2 he comes into his own and is an absolute butcher... one of the BEST melee bosses in the game, who can absolutely wreck almost any unit and most enemy Commanders (the few he can't beat, he can tie with). All you need are three pieces of Wargear: Burrow (T1), the acid splash claws (T2), and the ridiculous 30% damage synapse aura (T2).

Incidentally, he's unkillable due to burrow. You just wait until he's almost dead, then burrow and immediately hit X - it'll knock everything back. Overpowered.

Still, I do love him very much. 45-2 so far. :)

[2nd_law]

in 3v3 he is far and away the best hero in the game, as his tunneling ability lets you quickly respond to armies all over the map (especially on smaller maps like desert gate and spire). Yes the tunnels are easy to destroy, but what often happens is there will be a skirmish and the tunneler will tunnel to it and then put his entire army in the tunnel behind him, and they all pop out behind your own force, which is deadly even if you aren't using set up guns. being flanked by AG warriors and 3 squads of gaunts is basically instant death for any force, not to mention their large numbers prevent retreating often.

Im not saying you would want 3x ravener alpha's for your team, because Sm/eldar do a better job of holding points. But having 1 means that its almost impossible to get caught off guard by a force attacking your least defended area. he also allows you to deepstrike a back point forcing you to break your front lines. this is all in addition to being impossible to kill since he can just felle from any losing battle.

Im currently on a 3v3 team with one of our members ranked #5 on the leaderboard as of last night, and they only teams we have lost to have been Ravener alpha + SM + X.

[Engine]

Nids in general will get nerfed shortly, I think. There's something broken when I don't want to play any other race or commander because I might be playing someone who's using an advantage I'm not.

[TheToxicTruth]

Ravener + Without Number = Turn the tide of a battle going on across the map. Love it.

[Engine]

That does what, again? "Creates additional units at your base" is vague. :)

[Latias418]

So your problem is with tunnels... And not with Webway gates?
They are pretty much the same thing, only cheaper and with limitation that they can be only created where the hero is.

When Eldar can make 2 webways instantly for free every 100 seconds, then they'll be comparable.


That does what, again? "Creates additional units at your base" is vague.

Spawns one ripper squad, one hormagaunt, and one termagant squad at your base.

[Kommando Nob]

I probably wouldn't mind its ability to spam tunnels across the map if it was restricted to the Ravener player only. As it is now, I guess I'll just build wartrukks and ask my mates if they want to carpool.

[Engine]

Hey, not bad for 500 Zeal & 100 req per unit. Damned if I know what I'd use the rippers for, though. I don't use them because I feel dirty - it's like kicking someone who's already down. :)

[TheToxicTruth]

Spawns one ripper squad, one hormagaunt, and one termagant squad at your base.

Mmhmm.

With Rav you can be in the middle of a battle, hit that 500 bio points mark and send your without number units into the tunnel you should of put at your base at the start.

Then you can pop your rav out behind the enemy army and send the without number units with him, bam, pincer attack + reinforcements.

[Owa]

When Eldar can make 2 webways instantly for free every 100 seconds, then they'll be comparable.


in 3v3 he is far and away the best hero in the game, as his tunneling ability lets you quickly respond to armies all over the map (especially on smaller maps like desert gate and spire). Yes the tunnels are easy to destroy, but what often happens is there will be a skirmish and the tunneler will tunnel to it and then put his entire army in the tunnel behind him, and they all pop out behind your own force, which is deadly even if you aren't using set up guns. being flanked by AG warriors and 3 squads of gaunts is basically instant death for any force, not to mention their large numbers prevent retreating often.

These guys get it. The real issue with the ravener is the fact that he can tunnel and you do not have to commit your forces anywhere or resources on the map to defend your victory point. It's not horribly overpowered when only the tyranid can use the tunnels, but when my force commander can run in, virtually suicide himself, hop into a tunnel, heal at base, hop in tunnel, fight again - as opposed to running across the entire map to heal losing precious time that's a problem.

I think that wartrucks and rhinos should not allow your teammates to reinforce and raveners and web ways should not allow your teammates to instant teleport. Doing so breaks team game balance. To win 3v3 you are pretty much REQUIRED to have a tunneler on your team or suffer defeat.

[Mithie]

1. Watch ravener pop up.
2. Toss a grenade.
3. Gib his whole army.

[Misiok]

Getting in and out of tunnels takes some time, especially when the game is laggy. Units don't enter tunnels instantly either, cause due to the weird pathing they all need to go to the centre of the tunnel, dissapear, and the next one goes, it's fast yes, but not insta. Also, afair only 4 units can be in a tunnel at once. That makes it either 4 squads of the nid, or 4 squads of the ally, or 2 nids and 2 ally. If tunnels are to be of any good surprise attacks, the nid army should always be in the tunnels to pop out immediately after new one is made.

[KnightPT]

dont forget the ravener is a powerful combatante, i find him harder to kil than the hive tyrant, also it sucks when your in a vp match when your about to win and sudenly a tunnel pops up near your base and some nobz pop up from the tunnels with adrenal gland warriors and u have to pull all your guys out from protecting your vps to go defend base and your attackers can just disappear back into the tunnels with a simple command.

[Susurrus]

It clearly is OP. The ability to move your warriors from the front-line to your base after winning a fight, reinforce, heal, and be back quicker to the front effectively negates any mobiliy disadvantages warriors have.
Added to which, the tunnel negates all set-up weapons, emplacments (thus directly rendering useless two of the other races' heros' main abilities). Sure, they're easy to destroy, and if the ravener comes in first its possible to combat.. But already in a fight, and then he pops up?

I think its prob significant that one of the top-ranked players almost exclusively uses the ravener, and hasn't been beaten (or hadn't when I played him a while ago.. he toasted me pretty quickly) using the tactic..

Added to which, a current favorite tactic of mine is bringing warriors into the enemy base (with adrenal glands), ripping up the turrets, and then destroying retreating units before they acn reinforce/heal.

It's like the WS teleport all ability, but quicker, more effective, and crucially, stays in play.

[Demonhorde]

Mh I think he's fine, the burrows are shown on the minimap and is easy to kill. And to make him good at melee you sacrifice the range bonus. And ravanger's hp is not the best. The thing is that his synapse lacks compaired to the other choices. He's not the OP god you make him out to be. Lictor alpha is one tuff cookie though the pheromone cloud is killer...

[Warskull]

1. Watch ravener pop up.
2. Toss a grenade.
3. Gib his whole army.

While this seems simply, I think this kind of play will be huge vs a ravener once people get better at the game. When things first pop out of the tunnel they are extremely tightly packed, a good flamer or grenade could wreck havoc.

[DpCrossland]

Maybe the should have a effect on pop-cap like webways do, so that u can't just have them everywhere and have a massive army of doom the instantly jumps around.

[Mokino]

They need pop cap and/or a travel delay.

[Pathen]

Tunnels create a broken combo involving Tunnels + AG warrior melee hordes. Because of the instant travel time, it is possible to instantly hard-counter all weapons with setup time, and then run units back to base through tunnels to reap the benefits of the bases' healing aura.

The tunnels cost minimal energy to make, and are created two at a time.

Eldar webway gates cost 120 zeal, 5 pop cap, have a build time (which the tunnels do not), and are made one at a time.

So yeah- the tunnels are a bit OP right now. They need a travel delay to prevent raveners from burrowing melee armies directly into friendly lines without any chance for response.

(Because, lets be honest, if any ranged army gets a ravener burrowing a melee army directly into their midst, they have no options for retreat, no chance to respond, and no way to close the tunnel before the troops arrive.)

[cyborgZero]

I use the Nob commando booty trap the tunnel, and once all those gaunts pour out in one concentrated blob, BOOM! I have killed 2-3 full squads of gaunts doing so. I usually break the other tunnels, leaving him only one tunnel, and have a decent welcoming party waiting for him.

I use stikbommaz to rapidly clear the tunnels, the throw and boom, 25 zeal!

[baionetto]

tunnels are not to be ridiculous but the cost, because the teleport point Eldar consuming zeal that of Tyranid energy.
So it is OBVIOUS that that of Tyranids should consume zeal point.
How could think otherwise know only those of the relic

[Dux]

I really think tunnels should take some time to create. If you use the Ravener's burrow ability and travel the distance of a typical tunnel before unburrowing, it takes time, but with the tunnel ability, the Ravener is able to miraculously warp underground from entrance to exit in no time at all. It doesn't make sense, and it's a little imbalanced.

The nice thing about tunnels, though, is that they give a nice chunk of zeal each time you kill one, which is relatively easy.

[Vertrucio]

Don't forget those spore mines. 1 Tunnel with 1 cluster of spore mines will wipe out most tier 1 units, say if they're capping a location. Sluggas are vulnerable, as are guardians. Although this is how they're supposed to be used together, the complete wiping of a unit with little to no effort is a bit wrong.

Common thing seems to be the ravener will lure melee units to attack him, he instantly tunnels away and pops up a spore mine right where he used to be.

Overall he's not that bad, but it's a combination of some Nid OP in general combined with his abilities.

[LandShark]

put a 2 minute or 3 timer on tunnels. that way it is used how it should be. put them in out of the way places on maps so you can travel secretly and attack from behind, or use it for a 1 time attack to pop up right in the middle of an army for a suprise attack. you will lose the tunnel but it gave a 1 time advantage for that battle.

[Engine]

The thing is that his synapse lacks compaired to the other choices.I'm sorry, I must be confused... are you saying a %30 damage increase on all nearby units is... lacking?!

[Zephris]

I heard a friend of mine talk to me about this after his experiences in 1v1, I said much the same as some of the posters here, downplaying its effects and such.

Today I ran into a nid play that used it extensively, and it is what won them the game in our 3v3. I appreciate the fact they can be naded but when it works it basically is GG, even if you instant retreat to get away from the nids more often then not your having to run through them to get out ensuring that atleast some people die and you certainly loose the point you were trying to hold.

In comparing it to the Eldar webway their is a huge disparity in how they work, the webway costs Zeal, and needs time to build. Frankly I imagine if given the choice an Elder would rather have the tunnels over the webway any day.

[Dreavus]

I think tunnels need some kind of travel time. Instant movement to ANY of the tunnels already built is just too good. Sure you could say the same for Eldar webway gates but they are also infinitely more expensive and have a build time, as others have said. Perhaps make nid tunnels kind of like the old IG garrison system, where you have to "move" your units to different entrances before emerging.

Another solution is perhaps tying tunnels together in the pairs they are made in. This still allows for "sneak attacks" on enemy ranged troops, but doesn't give the Ravaner player the ridiculous advantage of moving his troops around the map with incredible efficiency.

The tunneling in general also doesn't make "sense" from a fluff point of view. I know this is the strategy forum, but how are these units instantly moving from one tunnel to another? At least with eldar they're using warp technology, but as far as I know the nid tunnels are just... ordinary tunnels. Last time I went through a tunnel I'm pretty sure I didn't instantly warp out the other side.

[Cadian Guard]

game wsie shouldnt the ravenors be the only ones to use the tunnels? thats suppossed to be their unqiue ability and i dont think it should be changed to allow everyone else to use em. the ravenors are suppossed to be a fast ambushing creature like the lictor except with more firepower. anyways thats how i assume their role to be...

thank you Dreavus i was thinking of having the tunnels function like the old IG garrisson system. That would make it alot more balanced and force the ravener alpha player to make more tactical choices on to where he puts the tunnel rather than just sticking it right out in the open and warping the warrior death horde through instantly. with a system like that the player will have to find a place that is kinda secluded burrow to their and slowly send his army through and then attack.

[JHD536]

Aside from those assuming everyone will be able to immediately identify a brand new Ravener tunnel and destroy it within 5ms with their superhuman reflexes before a swarm of units come pouring out of it...

I think the tunnels should either be given a cooldown starting from the time the units *enter* the tunnel, dependent on the distance between source/destination, or perhaps switched with the hardened carapace's burrow ability, meaning that they could hide themselves and move around early on, but mass transport would require a specific piece of gear.

[Bronyaur]

Clearly tunnels should be identical to webway gates. In fact let's make Tyranids and Eldar the same across the board.

Sarcasm not needed, I know. Just funny how these balance boards are filled with people saying Race A is different than Race B, but they should be the same. Think about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but webway gates are an Eldar ability. To be able to tunnel, you are not able to do anything the other commanders can do exclusively. So if you want to make tunnels equal to webway gates, you must also give the ability to every tyranid commander. I'm sure nobody is going to agree to that.

Ravener Tunnel is quite good, but you can't nerf it too much without making the Ravener a last choice commander in the process. After all it is his defining characteristic.

[hellic]

How would he be the last choice? He still be able to pop up and disrupt set-up weapons, Tyranids are damn mobile already, and almost all of his wargear choices are very useful.

[Vertrucio]

Perhaps lower the amount of troops the tunnel can carry to just 2 units. He can still move units across the map quickly, but not a whole army at one time. For that, he'll have to take time to micro, giving units that just got ambushed time to react.

You could also make a more obvious effect appear above tunnels, a little cloud of spores (the small kind, not the explodey kind) above the tunnel. You could then color code that cloud of spores to represent team colors.

[Goobers]

Make tunnels point to point, and not cheap webway gates. Solves a lot of problems on its own while keeping them different.

In adding, Auto-unload on the opposite end after 2-3 seconds and kill the squads inside like a transport if the unload point of the tunnel gets destroyed. Popping up and swarming crap now has risk involved.

[notastatwhore]

^cosign. Disagree with the auto unload. I just think that any units inside the tunnel should die if both sides collapse/are destroyed

light infantry should take up one slot. heavy infantry(warriors) should take up two slots.

make tunnels point to point

[Alegis]

Point to point would solve a lot of stuff, even if Relic does decide to keep webway gates as they are (which is: a waste of goddarn resources that's what)

[Steel*Faith]

I think tunnels should cost biomass. Just like the rest of the races have to pay to use such powerful abilities.

[Mazuo]

Ridiculously overpowered in my opinion. Was on a winning streak with some decently competent teammates and then we finally enter a game with a Nid player. Wasn't that terrible very early on in the game, but once he had tunnels set up at every single point on the map, we were doomed.

As for them only having 250 hp, keep in mind only special weapons really dent that. Having an Apothecary, Tacs and Scouts all focused-fire on one, I barely got it to 50% before his whole army and friends appeared again.

Players using this garbage even brag about it after matches. While you'll find most players give a 'GG' or talk some about balance after a match, every Ravener Alpha opponent I've run into has been on a 3-person team that trash-talks and comments how terrible you are after the game ends. Tunnel spammers obviously do it because it's free wins with good teammates.

[Diviator]

Tunnels should be usable for all players on a map with point-to-point directions. I'm sure I would think twice in using it if the enemy can use it, too.
Yes, you could move more troops with this function, but this could maybe balanced with a short delay or that it can only be use by one units at a time of i.e. 2secs.

AV weapons take out tunnels pretty fast. Another way would be to mine it, but this would require either a Techmarine or a Mekboy (I think Raveners and a Kommando ans lay some kind of trap, too).

[hellic]

Enemy using your tunnels? Interesting and funny idea...

The Ravener would really need to think about where to place tunnel, as the enemy can easily sneak up behind your force using your tunnels. However, they would have very limited mobility as new tunnels can't be made, and the Ravener player can spot if they're moving into a tunnel.

[CommissarRezail]

Kinda hard to use ravenor tunnels, even for allies since techniquely it looks like the tunnels are filled with green goo. Thats what it looks to me...

[Owa]

In addition the Ravener's ranged damage seems especially good for a ranged hero, > than kommando or tech marine on top of having a better default ability than every other hero in the game...more food for thought.

[searchuser]

Tunnels are a problem in 3v3.


While this seems simply, I think this kind of play will be huge vs a ravener once people get better at the game. When things first pop out of the tunnel they are extremely tightly packed, a good flamer or grenade could wreck havoc.

Sounds great in theory, but it's simply ludicrous to assume that a guardian or flamer team is going to be sitting in the right spot to catch a tunnel in the 3-5 seconds it takes for everything to pop out.

It's not as if I play the game by setting up my army on one victory point and then camping out, watching the screen like a hawk to see if there are any tunnels appearing. No, I'm usually decapping, destroying power, or trying to kill some enemy units.

There's really no good solution for the tunnels. If you focus-fire the tunnel, that's time you could have spent killing his stupidly powerful warriors. If you don't focus-fire the tunnel, he just retreats into it and reinforces, and then comes back a few seconds later.

It's the most broken thing in 3v3 play and I don't even see how it's open for debate.

[JanusRN]

I use the Ravener and the advantages are pretty overwhelming, but I've seen Guardians, Stikkbommas and scouts use grenades quite effectively to shut down my tunnel network.

There was a situation once where a couple of guardian squads tossed a grenade into a tunnel just as I was unloading 4 squads of guants and WBs. It killed all of them and it was gg after that.

So I wouldn't be adverse to a change in the tunnel system, but currently all the races have tools to counter to counter the Ravener's tunneling. Sometimes to devastating effect for the Ravener like I mentioned before.

[Sin Fang Bous]

Janus, how often do you really think that's going to happen? It's a one in a thousand chance that you're going to have the reaction time and luck to pull that kind of stuff off...

[mccrorie]

I did it once. It was spectacular. Total fluke, though, and soon after they used the same tactic but I didn't press G+click fast enough and half my army turned into lunch for horde of gaunts/warriors in under 5 seconds. Gone.

[Vertrucio]

Perhaps a delay on units exiting the tunnel combined with some visible effect above the tunnel to indicate a unit leaving like a puff of spores or dirt.

[Troubleshooter]

If an AG squad pops up near a SM squad, that SM player is out 80-200 req by default. The retreat instantly gibs atleast one tac, or most of a devastator squad.

Tac-Spam loses to warrior spam.

Ravener >! SM.

Imbalanced.

[Wafflecopter]

Maybe there's a three second delay between the tunnel user clicks exit and the unit exits. A visual notice, like dirt being pushed up would allow people to be ready for an ambush.

And maybe a pair of tunnels costs 100req?

[Troubleshooter]

Or maybe they use the IG model of tunneling, 3 units at a tunnel exit at a time, micro the unit shuffle which takes about 3 seconds to move a unit from one tunnel exit to another, max of three units exit at a time - including the hero that has to dig it.

The down side is that it would make allied use of tunnels nearly impossible - but for cost its still better than webways.

There are hundreds of ways to fix ravener tunnels, all of which come with heavy nerfs.

The bottom line is that having a whole nid army erupt from the ground at the feet of an enemy unit - at will - is IMBA. There has to be a metering effect on it or it will remain IMBA. I would happily pay 100 req to instantly move all my SM squads to just the right place when ever I need them there.

[Wafflecopter]

@ TroubleShooter

I know exactly what you mean.

I think the only way we can stop the tunnel spam is if we put a hardcap on them. You can have four tunnels (eight openings), and cannot make anymore (Even if they're destroyed). This makes tunneling beneath armies stupid because then you can lose tunnels and thus not make more.

This would then force the ravener to play fluffy, for rapid defense instead of offense.

[Hirmetrium]

Even 8 openings is ridiculous.

Tunnels could become more vunerable to fire, so that trying to arrive in front or behind an enemy army leaves you at far greater risk of having a hero cut off against an enemy force. Tunnels should be more defensive weapons, requiring to be well hidden, than offensive "LOL I JUST APPEARS AND GIBBED YOU".

[Malecite]

Ya okay waffle copter, 8 tunnels then what he's out of energy? Too tired perhaps to dig anymore? What you want the Warp Spider Exarchs teleporter to run out of energizer batteries? If you nerf the tunnel ability that much youve done exactly what relic did to warpspideres. They used to be my fav eldar unit, now I haven't seen them in A SINGLE MATCH post patch.

Seriously the alpha is a devastating unit on its own its own never mind the tunnels.

He does 61 DPS (Hive tyrant does 71 with and upgrade) with an aura that adds 30% damage to nearby allies and gets an aoe melee strike? Honestly who designed this fucking character. In addition to his ability to pop up everywhere and instantly unload units he's also the most poweful melee hero in the game. Oh and his ranged attack? Does something like 40dps when upgraded and damages vehicles.

I LOVE this character as currently he's the best hero in the games hands down. Occasionally we have a team of 3 of them and its just lol gg.

The problem is I haven't the faintest idea how you fix the nids or their heroes without breaking them completely. Maybe reducing his melee damage? Increasing tunnel recharge time? Maybe making them easier to destroy? Or perhaps FIX THE WEBWAY GATES. So the eldar get something comprable and people can find something besides the nids to bitch about.

Regardless dont expect any balance changes for at least 1 -3 months, maybe longer. Currently relic is doing code fixes that REQUIRE microsofts god dam approval, they have even stated this is completely down on the bottom of their list of things to address.

[Alien8]

If you nerf the tunnel ability that much youve done exactly what relic did to warpspideres. They used to be my fav eldar unit, now I haven't seen them in A SINGLE MATCH post patch.

Seriously the alpha is a devastating unit on its own its own never mind the tunnels.

Isn't there a contradiction in there?

I also suspect that the RA could still be great even if tunnels were heavily 'nerfed', but the trouble is I guess no one is going to know this as long as the tunnels are abusable (I can't imagine teammates being very happy if one insisted on playing a RA without spamming tunnels).

I love the RA, but I really wish Relic would do something about the tunnel ability soon (some interesting suggestions in this thread eg travel/exit delay, pop cap cost, limitations on units that can use them) so that its role outside of 'tunnel-spammer' could be explored better.

[Wafflecopter]

@ Malecite

You do realise you contradicted yourself there, right?
Also, I immediatly cleared your argument out of my mind when you said he was your favourite hero.

Go play a competent ravener alpha opponent with Eldar, and then I think you should come back and post again.

You said something about the ravener being "too tired" to build more tunnels. Fluff is good to a degree but then game balance needs to come into play. Tunnelling is stupidly overpowered and you have to be a fool to not realise it.

I still propose ravener tunnel hardcaps, perhaps four openings and thats it. No more, no less.

[Owa]

Tunnels should cost some sort of resource at the least.

Having the ravener start with the ability to tunnel is another issue, make it tied to t3 wargear or something.

Teammates should not be able to use tunnels.

Also, ravener squads should consume energy while in burrow....or make cloaking never consume energy for other units.

This isn't rocket science, these are all blatantly obvious fair balance changes to the game.

Even if you add all these "nerfs" the ravener still has an insanely high dps output as well as ravener squads.

[Troubleshooter]

If there is a single insta-tunnel that allows 100% army transport, its IMBA. Period.

If you don't have a metering effect, its IMBA.

The only way its not, is if every Nid unit is so crappy that you don't care that they are moving a whole army into your face every 30 seconds.

[redscare]

IMO tunnels just need travel time, like IG tunnels between buildings in DoW:WA. That, coupled with the nerf some nid units deserve, may turn out to be enough.

[Mokino]

Travel time and perhaps an indicator that units are in the current tunnel entrance?

Team mates being able to use tunnels is part of the 3v3 synergy, though. The tunnels and the RA are the problem, but restricting tunnel use to one player would make the RA less desirable in team games.

On that note, I'd also like to see the Lictor Alpha buffed a bit to be more useful.

[Vintage]

On that note, I'd also like to see the Lictor Alpha buffed a bit to be more useful.

NO way. You must have never run into a good lictor alpha player. It is truly amazing.

[Mokino]

I mean for team play. He's mean in 1v1, but not that great for teams.

[roflmao]

I'd describe the Raveneers tunnels as "fucking ridiculous"

1v1, me as orks and my opponent as the raveneer. I saw over 20 tunnels in that game in very short time making it literally impossible for me to have any sort of vp control. Those tunnels have tons of health.

He kept on transporting his whole fucking army, insta gibbing a squad, and then magically teleporting back to wherever he wanted to before I had a chance to react.

[Troubleshooter]

He kept on transporting his whole fucking army, insta gibbing a squad, and then magically teleporting back to wherever he wanted to before I had a chance to react.Now imagine your squads cost 500 a pop ;)

[Frigidair44]

Anybody defending tunnels are seriously silly.

Instant transfer makes them the most mobile army in the game. And the cheap cost lets them spam tunnels constantly. It effectively removes the lag of retreat from the nid army that every other army in the game has to deal with.

I played as Orkz against the nids and I outplayed him till he got some real power going. As soon as he lost a few units he just jumped in the hole and took off to base or another point on the map and harassed my structures there.

While I was retreating he jumped in a hole and zoomed to capture another point or blow up my Gens. I simply COULD NOT keep up with him and the speed of his army.

By the end of the game his just opted not even to fight me and as soon as he saw my whole 2 sluggas come at him he jumped to another point and harassed there.

Don't tell me there isn't a problem where the top players are playing nids and ravener.

There needs to be a nerf added to tunneling. There has to be some sort of time delay for travel. Maybe like 7 seconds to pass from one point to another once the decision is made. Or make tunnels point to point, and add a delay of 5 seconds for travel. Even then... it may be a bit quick.

It would keep the nids mobile... but take away that ridiculous speed advantage for travel they have. They will still be fast... but not instant fast

As for other races using the tunnels... thats up for debate.

[Sin Fang Bous]

I just went through a few games of total Ravener abuse and I'm getting pretty fed up with it.

Few other units have the chance to pick and choose their battles, and because of that ability, they tend to be on the weaker side. Think infiltrated scouts, warp spiders, warp spider exarch, etc.

The Ravener can bring his whole frigging army with him in no time flat and destroy anything on the receiving end. It's ridiculous.

[thegreatbooha]

I like mokinokaro's suggestions, we should petition for travel time and/or some indication of an incoming tunnel.

[Sin Fang Bous]

Or only allow the ravener to tunnel and leave Webway Gates the way they are. I'm not even kidding.

[GrimDark]

Ok. I had a interesting idea...

No, wait, hear me out.

Leave the tunnels as they are, BUT! Make units "disembark" from them the same way as from, say, Razorback. Only one model per ~0,7 seconds.

The travel speed would be still the same, but embarking/disembarking would make the troops vulnerable.
Even with Warrior squad, the delay before they would be able to attack would be quite close to granade delay, with some chance to get the hell out of Dodge.
Ravener would still be able to move like a greased lightning, but his boyz would take some time to emerge. That tunnel exit ain't too big.

Good idea/bad?

[searchuser]

That's pretty much how they should work in the first place.

[Sin Fang Bous]

Sounds great. It would give grenades a time to be thrown and time for platforms/HWTs to retreat, etc.

Tunnels should be more of a harassment tool than a wtfpwn one.

[Zephris]

Honestly right now what we see in MP is the ravener making one tunnel at the base, for free, then the ravener on his own going out and then making 2 more tunnels one where he starts and one behind or under your troops for him to come out of along with the army, but even if you take out the one he pops under you well.. he may have lost 1 hero but no army, or the hero may retreat to the other tunnel to get back to his HQ... Best way I think for tunnels to be changed is to make them Point A to Point B only.

[Malecite]

The more I play lately the more I see people adapting to his tactics. Focusing on destroying tunnels and hucking grenades down my throat. The only problem I see with him lately is when your facing 2 or 3 because then theirs like 50 tunnels everywhere that you and your allies can use.

That needs to be eliminated immediately, it makes no sense that the space marines can just dance into a ravener tunnel and instantly pop out the other side.

Im all in favor of making it like the Nod flame tank in C and C where it would burrow and then drive under the map. I have no idea why relic elected to have it instantly teleport units...

[Pocktio]

Anyone else been spore mine'd through tunnels? It's gg you can't escape if he goes for a setup squad....

As for what Troubleshooter said I totally agree. Appearing blobs next to a SM unit pretty much means that unit is going to die or get lucky and have one guy get out. That is complete rubbish, it's like a tier 3 AOE bombardment - instant loss of units for something available tier 1 is imba. Especially bad for SM, losing a whole squad is somewhat of a setback and it only gets worse as the nid progresses because it's very hard to put down a nid blob with the amount of cheap/free reinforcement they get.

Reduce unit slots in tunnels and make it so spore mines can't travel in them, they'd still be ridiculous then though. 3 Warriors with AG/Ravener popping out wherever = gg. Arg, what to do...a 'setup' time for the tunnels maybe....so you can somewhat move your troops away. I know you could say that makes them pointless but it doesn't, you're dislodging the enemy from a set position. That might remove the instagibbing.