Melee in MP- What should it be for?

[Pathen]

Just curious- how do all of you see melee as fitting into the Multiplayer?

I personally feel that the MP devs never quite decided how they wanted melee to be implemented. Its features and uses are poorly documented and ambiguous in combat.

Melee groups have the distinct advantage of being able to chase down and gain bonus damage to retreating infantry. This is a pretty cool idea, as it forces players to think twice about retreating their troops.

So why shouldn't this be the primary mechanic of melee? It feels like the DPS on melee overall should be lowered, in exchange for an additional bonus to damage vs. retreating troops. Force defenders to think twice before retreating out of melee, but give defending troops the chance to remain in melee for a bit while backup arrives. Make haing units being melee swamped a little less instantaneously devastating.

Melee masses would still be useful- but it'd give more reward to players who can supplement the Melee -tie up capacity with ranged forces and suppression mechanics.

But what do you think?

[WhiteDeVile]

Well Ive always thought that melee should be globaly nerfed a tad because of:
a) Meleeing unit if it gets in close combat is preventing the second one - ranged from attacking.
b) All melee unit have a quick charge ability when they get near their targets.

These two features and overall ranged and melee dmg values for most units, make melee more effective than ranged in whole multiplayer.

[Delta_Assault]

That seems faithful to the fluff. Melee's supposed to be equal or slightly superior to ranged in the W40K universe.

[Ap0k]

Moving to strategy.

[Noble]

Melee is about risk. Most melee units have a pretty high damage output, but it's risky because you have to get so close to the enemy to start dealing damage.

I think the role of melee units is fairly natural in multiplayer. They tie up squads so your ranged units can do additional damage with impunity.

[ViS]

We have so many close-ranged AOE attacks that totally fuck melee units in this game that it's not even funny anymore. Melee is perfectly fine as it is.

[Octopus Rex]

Melee dmg may seem high to some people, but that's usually because your opponent sends melee specialists against your ranged specialist. If the melee specialists stood and shot the ranged specialists allowing them to use any abilities they might have too, then it would be the melee specialists turn to die very quickly.

[hellic]

I just hate how a melee mob can physically prevent retreating units from moving (read: hormagaunt swarm). Even if I retreat my Warlock at 70% health, he'll die in a few seconds.

[Gen_Khan]

/\

Retreating units take more damage from melee. There is an increase of melee damage taken by 30%. So if your swarmed by melee units, retreating is the last thing you want to do... maybe try to run away and then retreat....

[Brenil]

I just hate how a melee mob can physically prevent retreating units from moving (read: hormagaunt swarm). Even if I retreat my Warlock at 70% health, he'll die in a few seconds.

That's actually a good thing, because anything that makes the retreat function less of a 'get out of jail free card' is benefiting the game rather than hindering it.

The only problem with this is that only Tyranids and possibly Orks have the ability to trap units, whereas Eldar and Space Marines must make due with letting them escape to fight another day.

[Pathen]

Melee is about risk. Most melee units have a pretty high damage output, but it's risky because you have to get so close to the enemy to start dealing damage.

I think the role of melee units is fairly natural in multiplayer. They tie up squads so your ranged units can do additional damage with impunity.

That's what I thought, too. But somehow that's not the case. If you decide to use melee, it's typically MORE effective to pile on more melee than it is to try and introduce ranged elements.

The only reason I propose a change is because I'd like to see more reward for mixing unit types. Otherwise, if I go melee I feel like I am 'committing' to melee.

Again, I can't stress enough that I'm not proposing this out of some twisted desire to 'nerf' melee. I agree that melee is 'fine' balance wise- it just doesn't add all that much to the game.

In a game where units die in an instant at the flip of a coin, melee is a powerful tool, and is often significantly easier to use than a ranged/melee mix. (Sort of like patting your head and rubbing your belly), but the way it is right now, the game doesn't do much in the way of rewarding players that try to do those mixes.

I saw an interesting potential feature in the ability of melee to overrun routed forces- and I was curious how people thought about making that the 'speciality' of melee. The damage decrease is just the counter-point to that, to ensure that players who mix melee with ranged are rewarded more than they are now.

Melee armies would have the ability to tie up entire enemy armies with the understanding that they would take MORE time to kill units, but that if those units rout, they would take significantly more casualties while retreating.

Ranged armies would have the benefit of faster TTKs, at the cost of being relatively unable to stop units from retreating when routed.

And the right mix between the two averages out the DPS, and has the flexibility to inflict casualties on retreating units and tie up critical units, while still managing ranged ones.

If you disagree and think that ranged/melee mix armies are rewarded under the current system, feel free to do so. It's just been my experience that you are better off committing to one or the other (predominantly).
Either you mass sluggas or AG Warrs, or VG Warrs or Shootas. You either go tacs OR you go ASM. you either go banshees OR you go ranged mass.

Half-heartedly dedicating just seems to hurt in the long run with the current balance.

[Buguba]

That's what I thought, too. But somehow that's not the case. If you decide to use melee, it's typically MORE effective to pile on more melee than it is to try and introduce ranged elements

That's not true at all.

The advantage of ranged units is that they can be used in tandem with suppression units. If 3 shoota squads faced off against 3 slugga squads, the sluggas win hands down. However, if you have 2 shoota squads + a loota squad against 3 slugga squads, the shootas win hands down.

Think about it: the sacrifice that a melee army makes is that it is difficult to back your melee units up with heavy suppression units. A melee army is always forced to charge, while a ranged army has the advantage of choosing where the battle happens. Suppression units lack versital movement, so they are only useful when the enemy comes to them. Because melee units are based on bringing the fight to the enemy, this nullifies the effectiveness of suppression units.

Ranged units, however, are perfecting for working with suppression units. Ranged units can sit next to suppression units and deal damage without having to go anywhere at all.

The perfect army is a mixed army. An army of all suppression units is too static to avoid flanking, an army of all ranged units can be overwhelmed by melee units, and melee units do not have the range necessary to engage suppression units. An only ranged + suppression army is defeated quickly by jump melee units, a melee + ranged army is defeated by suppression units, and a suppression + melee army conflicts too much for the suppression unit to be effective. A mix of all these types makes for an unstoppable force.

[Latias418]

Melee dmg may seem high to some people, but that's usually because your opponent sends melee specialists against your ranged specialist. If the melee specialists stood and shot the ranged specialists allowing them to use any abilities they might have too, then it would be the melee specialists turn to die very quickly.

Actually no, melee is usually 2-3x the dps of ranged counterpart units (ie shootaslugga, gauntgant).

[whatsleft]

but melee has a massive risk, it is not easy to close in and tie them up in melee combat while ranged is sure to deal some sort of damage.

[Octopus Rex]

At the risk of saying L2P, shouldn't you guys just dance the troops that the melee are going after? This was all your other ranged troops can shoot them while the melee troops chase units around.

[Darktau]

Melee VS Ranged well for my choosen ranked army the decisionwas made for me durring the beta balance patch with the nerfing of Banshees. I use melee to support my ranged if an enemy melee unit getins into range of my ranged units I counter with Banshees wipeing out there melee or sacrificeing the Banshees so my Guardians and platforms can retreate.

In showing how a melee supported by ranged can defeate a melee heavy an example from a game I had pre patch 1.1.2. Force Eldar with a Space marine team VS 2 Space marines going ASM. A squad of Banshees is smashed when jumped on by 3-4 ASM squads with a Force Commander and Apothicary chargeing into melee but gets off the shout before they die. The Eldar shruiken platform sets up starts fireing keeping the suppression up the enemy marines are out of charge range and there jump packs have not recharged yet.

The Eldars marine ally arrives sending in his 2 ASM squads and his FC into melee. The Eldar Warp Spider Exarch and 2 Guardian squads arrive and start shooting. The melee marines team sends in there dreadnaughts. The Eldar D-cannon and marine Plasma cannon teams arrive with the Eldar Wraithlord.

2 more ASM squads arrive from the melee orenantated marines jump into the fight finishing the Eldar/marine teams ASM. The Wraithlord enters melee as the Force Commander activates his Iron Halo. The Plasma cannon fires scattering the ASM the D-cannon fires its Black hole ability sucking the marines back in for another Plasma Cannon shot. Most of the melee teams ASM are dead the Wraithlord falls from the artilleryies splash damage.

The Warp Spider Exarch uses his graveity grenade causeing the marines to float as his allied FC continues to hold on by a thread the Plasma Cannon and D-cannon kill everything left in a final volley the defeated melee maries hit the Plasma Cannon and D-cannon with an orbital bombardment destroyng them. The Guardians fan out takeing defensive positions the Warp Spider Exarch revives his allied Force Commander.

The melee marines are crippled unable to build a force large enough to retake the southern VP from the Eldar who set up a D-cannon 2 Wraithlords the 2 now 2 level 3 Guardian squads in a defensive position with the Warp Spider Exarch acting as spotter.

His marine ally sends his Force Commander to join his heavy bolter squad shot gun scouts squad aiding the 3rd ally in pushing back the Orks about to take control of the northern VP closest to our bases. His forces are soon reinenforced with the new Plasma Cannon squad deadnaught and ASM squad he qued up durring his run north.

I was the Exarch in this game we won by a substantial marine. Going melee heavy can be an effective tactic but once your opponet realises what you are doing they will counter with sufficent melee to hold your forces long enough for the ranged attacks to turn the tide agenst you.

[BarxBaron]

There is one major reason melee seems so powerful compared to range IMO.

That is because its hard to dance in this game compared to DoW1....why?

Because ranged units when told to fire often want to look for cover.............

You can't dance away from melee, then when the melee changes targets pick the new target to dance while the old squad shoots the melee now moving away because half the time they waste their time looking for cover.

Hell I've had squads GET CLOSER TO INCOMING MELEE cause there was cover in that direction..........

This game DRASTICALLY needs the hold-ground option from DOW1. That alone would make me happy.

Besides that melee is fundamentally disadvantaged. Range squads constantly do dmg output while melee may be wasting their time if heading toward a target at the wrong time. Put in hold-ground so units stop going cover hunting when you need them to stop and shoot and it'd be perfect IMO.

Hell, while we're at it put in the "range only"/"melee only" options too. Would counter sluggas with flamers going nuts and refusing to go melee unless you manually hit "z". Would also get rid of my freakin kommando going nuts cuz he can't decide whether to bash the nme or shoot. (yes I've had it happen...he freakin spazzes out) If thats not feasible I'd with they'd add a "range-attack" similar to the Z button...but forces the squad to fire from maximum range.....