View Full Version : Is it possible to win with space marines?
28th Feb 09, 9:39 AM
I don't mean to rant, but either there's something I don't know, or there is something utterly broken with multiplayer in this game.
I finished the campaign pretty much sipping coffee and occasionally poking my nose. The difficulty level was ok, but not really that big a challenge. But still despite it's drawback I like it.
But multiplayer/skirmish is some sort of a joke. Just for the record I play Space Marines - favourite race. But... No matter what I do I get completely, utterly owned. Every time. Playing with other people is understandable, there's always someone better, but for something like 5 matches in a row, my team was (3v3 matches mostly) always being wiped out in minutes.
With skirmish it's even worse, even when I got the upper hand, control most of the map and stuff, suddenly 3 meks appear. WTF? Where did they get the resource? I understand that the idea of Space Marines is that the have tough, multi-purpose , expensive units. But the thing is, before I manage to build an army big enough to cover my territory, the enemy just floods me and I'm down to 70 points :/
Either this is a balance issue (but I didn't see anyone complain) or there is something I'm doing wrong.
Today I had like level 5 units with all the goodies (terminator armour and stuff) and the AI still managed to get a counter attack and push me back to my base - defeat.
Now with online multiplayer I do understand that, there is tons of people better than me, but losing every time in 5 minutes?
28th Feb 09, 10:35 AM
I will say this right up front: single player and multiplayer will always be vastly different things. Being good in single player doesn't always translate to being good in multiplayer.
That being said, 3v3 is tough for measuring your own skill. It's usually best to go in with a party of people rather than going in by yourself. Going in by yourself means that you throw yourself to the random chance of drawing an awesome or an awful teammate. More often than not, your teammate will be awful. I've frequently had it before where I controlled my portion of the map perfectly while my teammates floundered and died. Even though I maintained my victory point and territory well, I lost because my teammates could not hold their own territory against their respective enemies. Your success is entirely contingent up on the success of your teammates. You win together and die together.
If you have friends that play DoW 2, play 3v3s with them. If you don't, link up with the first good player you see. That way you can ensure that you're not leaving your victory up to chance.
The important thing about multiplayer to remember is that your opponent does not wait for you. Consequently, you have to always be thinking ahead and have some sort of strategy in mind before you hit the field. You also have to be quick thinking during a battle. Unless you're playing with a friend, NEVER RELY ON YOUR TEAMMATES TO HELP YOU. You need to make sure what you already know how you're going to deal with your enemy before the fact. This game is too quick to allow for a lot of mistakes.
The main way you can have strategies in advance is knowing how other races work. For example, the Orks start out with infantry that can cream your scouts. However, until they reach T2, your infantry can stomp on them. You have to be careful though because the Orks are almost always going to pull out a walker in T2 because it's so cheap for them (some 300 req + 50-60 power for a Deff dred compared to 500 req and 90 power for a Dreadnaught). You need to be prepared for this by outfitting one of your tactical squads with a missile launcher, getting melta bombs for your assault marines, getting your own dreadnaught, setting up a plasma devestator squad in advance, or getting a powerfist (if you have the FC).
The Tyranids, on the other hand, do not have access to heavy vehicle-like units until T3. You'll mainly be dealing with swarms of light infantry backed by super-heavy infantry like Warriors. Consequently, one of the best things you can do is pull out a quick vehicle (like a razorback) or outfit your Tactical Marines with a combination of flamers and plasma guns.
For both scenarios, getting a Heavy Bolter right off the bat is key. The Heavy Bolter squad can suppress and kill any mobs of melee infantry that might try to charge you, and it locks down an area almost completely against infantry (assuming you support it).
Really though, all these things just take time. The Space Marines are easiest to learn, but learning the multiplayer atmosphere is difficult.
28th Feb 09, 11:21 AM
I know most of this stuff, used to play a lot of DoW/Winter Assault, the thing with allies is that most of the time the do even worse than me. I got about 380 points in the last online match and it was the highest score on my team. The enemy had about twice as much. It's always like that. Like there was some script for assigning me to the "you suck" team. :(
I mostly use the combination of a force commander with power fist, shield and armour, marines with heavy canon an tactical marines, but this all costs so damn much that before I can call some other squads to cover my butt I get overwhelmed.
It's a lot harder than old DoW or CoH :/
28th Feb 09, 2:04 PM
Actually I'd say it's alot easier than in DoW (dunno about CoH, but I guess its the same or easier as well really)
Don't play 3v3 to judge your skill. Go 1v1, probably ranked, since in customs there are mostly new people without much experience (I'm guessing here aswell) and see how you fare against other people.
Tbh I feel meh when I'm trying to play 3v3 with randoms, but it's more epic with friends, no matter the outcome of a match.
28th Feb 09, 4:06 PM
I think if you look at the rank of the people on the other team you will begin to realise there is no WORKING matching system.
Try playing as a 6 or below rank team against 30 and above rank people. Until the matching system is working you are going to see this total ownage.
Try to get a couple of friends and just play together, win or lose you have to play a lot togehter to get good, you want to get to the point where you don't have to ask for help they see and give it.
I've seen teams of friends that play together and they just roll over the odd random teams, especially when it is an uneven matchup.
28th Feb 09, 6:16 PM
Sadly enough my friends don't play DoW2 and can't be talked into playing it (gonna have to find some new ones ;)). The good news is, I finally managed to beat the AI, it seems that heave infantry spamming is the key to success. Sort of sad that the scouts are so useless.
I noticed one thing about cover though - it's not obvious. In CoH, you see the shield and know the cover mod iffier, in DoW it's just those to small dots that light up. I can never see when I'm in cover and when not.
What is really weird though, as much as I see DoW as flawed, the more I play it the more I like it - just a digression.
This is much more appropriate for space marine strategy, so I'll move it over :)
1st Mar 09, 10:54 AM
My record sits at around 35-11 right now with SM (5 losses to really horrible players as a result of game crashes :( )
So yes, it is possible to win.
The thing about SM, is that you have to look at each unit as valuable. Even if you lose 1 marine out of a tact squad, look at it as a major economy hit (due to high reinforce costs). The trick I've found to playing SM is really getting away from fights you cannot win before they even start. There are plenty of times I hit my retreat button before a fight is even engaged just because I know its a fight I can not win or get away from easily.
Some things you simply cannot allow while playing SM in MP
- You should never let a squad completely die.
- Early game especially, you should never be losing units in a squad (obviously late game this becomes more and more difficult to avoid).
- If your scout squad(s) are not capping something at every moment, you're doing something wrong.
Space marines are simply dominated by the other races when it comes to map control. They generally have fewer units as a result of their costliness. You really have to overcome this by utilizing what you have at every moment. This means keeping your scouts on the move all game capping points. A tip for doing this is using waypoint capping. Send your scouts to a cap point, and then shift click additional points around there so that you're scouts continue to cap as you manage your main force. This can however run into problems. Your scouts may engage enemies without you being aware and get killed, so you have to be watching your minimap constantly as your scouts move around.
You mention being beaten badly by Dreads. I find I rarely have problems with them. Usually I have a Tac squad out early game, and a Tac squads with a rocket launcher generally handles them with relative ease (and killing one is a huge blow to their resources). You really have to be on the ball when it comes to microing (which again comes with practice and experience).
I started playing RTS more seriously back when Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne was released. You really learn microing technique by watching a replays, and breaking apart how little encounters go. Watch what the more experienced players do with each individual unit, watch how they utilize their abilities. It's really about doing detailed analysis to help improve your play.
The best thing you can do is watch replays of the more experienced players. You seem like you want to take the effort to improve, and the best thing you can do is see it being put into practice.
Feel free to ask any questions :)
1st Mar 09, 1:35 PM
I play skirmish and the campaign, wipe the floor with the AI, as any race.
I go online, play as Orks, my favorite, and get completely owned, every damn time. Am I missing something, or are the Orks just broken?
Joking and sarcasm aside, multi takes some getting used to, and the truth is you really can't us AI skirmishes as practice, essentially, you need to get your head handed to a few times before you really start getting good at multi.
1st Mar 09, 3:18 PM
The answer is No.
It is impossible to win with space marines.
1st Mar 09, 6:41 PM
Sounds like the first big hurdle we have to get over is the concept of map control. It seems simple, but I remember being absolutely overwhelmed when I first start playing, even against the normal computers, because they were just capping all over the damn place. Jason had some great advice. WATCH REPLAYS. Especially replays with commentary. If you start to see how the good players play, you'll put that in practice instinctively.
That being said, Space Marines struggle in 1v1, especially on the more open jungle maps. They're just always outnumbered. 3v3 is a much different story. With a much narrower field of engagement, they really shine.
My advice? Watch replays. Learn to beat the computer - learn to beat it so well that there is no situation in which it will ever beat you. Then start playing ranked. Every time you win with a decent team, put them on your friends list and keep playing with them. It's much more fun on teams with friends then it is on losing teams with people you're blaming for losing the game :)
2nd Mar 09, 1:47 AM
I only played SM, 70 victory for 20 defeats.
BUT, there is plenty of noobs out there.
Against good players i think the ratio wouldn't be the same.
2nd Mar 09, 10:39 PM
I dunno man, I mean srsly The Eldar are so over powered I mean, I took like 1 tac squad, my hero to a point and killed 2 guardian squads and chase their hero and like i lost 1 tac squad member out of my team. I mean, and then I brought some meta bombs on their Walkers and then I Orbital Striked 2 other Walkers a hero and 2 banshees killing them instantly and I still lost 2 squad members!!!
They better make the Eldar easier to kill cause I am losing maybe like 5 units per winning game when really you should just be able to rush their base like we did with 2 orks heros and some melee and utterly wipe the entire game out in about 7 minutes.
Eldar are supposed to be like paper, and right now they are like fragile nimble glass with pea shooters, infact make their weapons illusionary so they think they are doing what piddling little damage they do and make it nonexistant.
Eldar are soooo overpowered OMGWTFBBQ!
3rd Mar 09, 1:41 AM
Thats not compeltely wrong ^^
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