Apoth over-nerfed

[FooF]

I'm usually not one to complain but my experiences with the Apoth post-retail has been one of frustration. He can't do anything well anymore. Many of the nerfs were justifiable in their own right but many were undocumented and (to me) unnecessary.

Let's take a look at what occurred:

Heal:

The amount of the Heal was thoroughly reduced. Corsix had a Pre-Patch and Post-Patch comparison and I was appalled.

Retail/(Beta)

Lvls 1-2: Heal 120 (175), 2500% Regen for 4 seconds (3900% for 3 seconds)
Lvls 3-4: Heal 190 (300), 2600% for 4 seconds (3900% for 4 seconds)
Lvls 5-6: Heal 260 (425), 2700% for 4 seconds (3900% for 5 seconds)
Lvls 7-8: Heal 320 (550), 2800% for 4 seconds (3900% for 6 seconds)
Lvls 9-10: Heal 390 (675), 2900% for 4 seconds (3900% for 9 seconds)

Obviously, Beta levels were absurd but Retail levels are in the 1/3 to 1/2 of what they used to be.

Remember, a Tac Squad has 1100 HP, even at lvl 10, that’s only 1/3 of their health. You might get 80-100 health out of the regen in 4 seconds.


Its recharge was increased 50% (20 seconds to 30 seconds).

Its cost was increased 66% (30 to 50 Energy).

In short, Heal is something like 1/4 as effective as before. Any one of those would have put Heal back in line but it was triple-teamed. (It was OP in Beta, no question, but this is absurd.)

Heal was also indirectly nerfed by the nerf to Armor of Purity. Its reduction of the recharge of Heal was reduced from 50% to 35%. I can understand that no one (except for Apoth abusers) wants Heal to be available every 10 seconds (as it was in Beta) but at best, it's available every 20 seconds now (at a higher price and reduced heal amount).


Durability/Combat Effectiveness

Along with the global nerf, the Apoth had its HP reduced. He now has 500 HP, the lowest of any Commander. Some will say, "Hey, he's the only one that can heal himself, too." which is justifiable but he can only heal himself for 120 HP every 30 seconds at lvl 1. 500 HP is not that much in this game and he goes down surprisingly quick to just about everything.

Also, to note, his own regen aura does not affect him! He regains HP at the standard 1 HP/sec of every other commander. Perhaps this is a bug.

Next, Armor of Purity was reduced to +100 HP from +150 (as if the recharge decrease for Heal wasn't enough).

Armor of the Apothecarion is still nice, however there was a stealth nerf in having the Advanced Healing have a cooldown to shut it off. Granted, turning it on and off at will is slightly OP but because of the immobilize on the ability, you have to commit your Apoth to being rooted for about 5 seconds. Also, it was indirectly nerfed because the regen bonus it gives use to stack with the original Apoth regen giving him about 5 HP/sec, it now gives roughly 2.5 or 3 HP/sec.

All of these things added up turns him into an incredibly squishy Commander. I'm not against that, per se, because he is a support Hero but he's extraordinarily squishy for a primarily melee Commander.

Damage

To thwart the Apoth>FC in melee trend in Beta (which does need to be addressed), the Apoth's damage was universally nerfed by about 15%. He was doing too much damage in Beta, agreed.

However, on top of the survivability nerfs above, not only can he not go into melee without being slaughtered, he is even less of a threat. He's almost ignorable with other troops around.

He should not be a melee powerhouse but I can't do appreciable damage to anything without the Power Axe but you need the Sanguine Chainsword to keep him alive (which doesn't do that much damage).

What he still can do:

He still has uses, of course, but it's hard to justify picking him over the FC but what's funny is that the FC didn't change (much) from Beta to Retail. The Apoth was, indeed, OP in Beta but now he's nowhere near the effectiveness of the FC.

He can't keep troops alive is my main beef. Heal was hit so hard that he's barely a support Commander. He's a de-powered FC that has a minor Regen aura and a situational, low-powered Heal. Advanced Heal is the only redeeming feature (and Angels of Death, which was also nerfed, btw) that makes you say "Damn, I'm glad I went Apoth." He's merely tolerable until that point.

Suggestions

Remove one, and I almost don't care which, of the nerfs to Heal. Make it heal more, reduce the cost or make it cost less. It was nerfed to oblivion. I'd honestly like the Recharge and Cost go back to Beta levels but have the Heal itself scaled back to what it is now. Small, but frequent heals instead of small, expensive, eternity-between-heals.

If the recharge of Heal isn't adjusted, at least make Armor of Purity halve the recharge, as of old. It would make it competitive with Armor of the Apothecarion in T2 and it wouldn't be a no-brainer (except that AoA costs a ton).

Give the Apoth his regen aura back (as in, let it affect him). He's a melee Hero with the lowest HP in the game and his base health, I believe, has the Regen "worked in" so that he's competitive with other non-Offensive commanders.

Weapon damage is fine. I agree with the changes.

[LandShark]

he isnt a melee hero, he is a support hero. use him to support your team and units.

he doesnt belong in the thick of the battle.

[FooF]

Wow. Enlightening post. Did you even read the thread?

I said he isn't a tank hero nor do I want him that way. Multiple times. He's still too weak even as a support hero. He falls too quickly in melee (where three of his 4 weapons put him in) and ranged because of his low HP, he heals for negligible amounts and the only redeeming quality is Advanced Heal, which is incredibly expensive.

[LandShark]

you forget that the regen applies to all surviving members. so it heals them all for that amount.

i get him for his grenades personally. healing is just a bonus. That is where the power axe comes in handy. spamming abilities like mad, combat enhancers are very nice.

[theM]

Seriously, just everything Relic nerf-batted between beta and full was overnerfed. I'll agree that he did need to be toned down - though the Heal bug in the latter half of the beta didn't make it any easier to tell how much - but he's no longer truly viable.

And yes, I switched to the Techmarine, like just about everyone else.

[Goobers]

I think the Apothecary is fine myself.


All his wargear is powerful and useful, his healing although directly lacking is very powerful and more than capable of turning the tide of battle. He often uses special attacks that deal good knockback.


He is like the Kommando Nob. He isn't going to do shit in combat in contrast to the warboss or Mek, but is very powerful in support. Knockdown Bolters, grenades, AoE and directed Healing, energy leach, good knockdown specials. He is exclusively support, but he covers that nicely.

[LandShark]

speaking of energy leeching. his power axe is the best choice to use against commanders using shields.

Wait, you probably didnt know what did you? there is plenty of stuff you probably havent tested out or tried.

[theM]

Actually, best choice against commanders using shields would be the TMs grenades or the Eldar Warlock's energy-draining witchblade.

[Goobers]

How is the energy draining witchblade any different to the energy leaching power axe?

[LandShark]

how can those be better choices if you are an apothecary? you dont have access to them.

[Latias418]

how can those be better choices if you are an apothecary? you dont have access to them.

So the energy leech axe is the best choice the apothecary has against shields? Really? Nobody could figure that one out. If you make a comment like that it's assumed you're talking about overall, in which case it is not the best choice. Even if you do have it, the Hive Tyrant, Warlock, and FC will STILL completely destroy the apothecary in melee. The only commander w/ shield you'll hurt is the Mekboy.

looking at the OP, it's like Apothecary got the amount of nerfs eldar did in the beta patch... which isn't very good for a single unit.

[theM]

They're on other, more well-rounded heroes that didn't get nerfed ;) As Latias said, he may have it, but it's not going to help him much.

Seriously though, Heal is his signature power and that, at the very least, needs a bit of a buff. He's lacking right now until you hit Armor of the Apothecarion, though the Purification Vials make up for a lot.

On a side note, did anyone ever find a use for Purification Rites? They always seemed something of a bad joke to me =/

[CommissarRezail]

He lvls up to lvl ten....nuff said.

[Goobers]

Purification Rites are basically Purification Vials without the friendly fire.

Charge the Apothecary or some Assault Marines into a group and Hormigaunts or Sluggas, pop the heal and watch them die. Its better on Squads than it is the Apothecary himself because every member adds to the AoE, but it basically hits anything within melee range of the heal target with the same impact as a Scout Grenade, only its instant and you can't dodge it.

Pair it up with the T1 armour to reduce heal regen and you will smash any melee orientated armies to pieces. Very small AoE, but really rips the health off, Sluggas, Hormigaunts and Banshees are all prime targets and it will almost insta-gib them.

[theM]

Yeah, but the Vials with the larger AoE and the DoT always worked much better for me. Wreaks absolute havoc on gaunts and can blow up an Eldar platform with no further assistance if it doesn't get out... I guess preference depends on playstyle :)

[HiveMind]

I find my poor Apothecary a bit lacking, although I'm still using him. He really does seem a bit weak in melee, and more often than not I find myself having to use his heal on himself rather than my squads. I'd vote for a slight increase in durability and a lower recharge time on the heal ability. Nothing too big, though, I certainly don't want him to be like he was in the beta.

[zer0ex]

i dunno, i think they should increase his damage output a little bit or increase his health. other than that, i think he's perfectly fine.

[grinn]

Increase his damage? I just had an Apoth tear up my Warboss in melee. Like...broken tear up...like Warboss going down in seconds broken. I think there is something wrong though, I have never seen the Apoth do this before.

[zer0ex]

thats really weird....what gear was he using? maybe he had combant stimulants.....that i must see for myself. do you have a replay?

[SteinerNein]

Power Axe + Combat Stims = 100+ damage per swing at lower levels on commanders/infantry

I am too lazy to actually do a real test, so take it with a ton of salt, but the combat stim lasts for 10~ sec and increases damage to 2.5x or something along those lines. Costs 50 energy.


A single missile from a Tac Marine with stims can blow up a Wartrukk in one shot. Two for a Deff Dread.

30 sec cool down on the item. So uh.. hrm.. yeah.

Rites are like Vials.. wait, no except they don't miss. Some one go lab the damage for it.


So basically, pop stims on an ASM and rites on an ASM and go.. lol? =/

In 3v3, I can think of one big use : Tyranid Warriors with Adrenal Glands.

Now I am thinking Eldar (Mech) / SM (Bio) / Tyranid (Bio)

[FooF]

Yes, I know about the leech in the Power Axe. I never complained about the leech because Energy is usually not the problem. It's a great Commander weapon and I liked the fix to its damage. Why insult my intelligence?

@Steiner: Combat sims increase damage 75% according to the game files. A nice boost in damage but I don't find it superior to Armor of Purity/Apothecarion.

[SteinerNein]

@ ESRFoof

Depends on your situation and it feels like it's more than 1.75 =( oh well.

I would like to really hear your reasoning on why it wouldn't be superior to Armor of Purity etc.

My considerations are something along the lines that with good enough abuse you can pretty much flat line everything that comes at you. There is little in the game currently that offers a one shot solution to almost any unit out in the field.

Your Apoth's DPS doesn't change because you're still using the Axe . And your survivability isn't lowered drastically because of the beefiness of SM units (that and the heals suck on anything but heroes).

And if your Apoth sucks at melee to begin with, perhaps it might be better to go with the bolter instead (maybe).

I guess you might accuse me of reaching for straws but, I feel like there is still some room for exploration here.

Your hero is a support hero and can be used somewhere along the lines like a Farseer.

I am interested to see how much damage you can crank out with Rites/Heal + Combat Stims. I have a feeling it'll outperform any combination of Purity or Apothecarion.

Survivability isn't your goal at the end of the day in this game. It's all about crazy amounts of DPS. You don't want to stay in a prolonged fight because that is not towards your advantage. I think we learned that lesson from plasma cannons =p (plasma cannon + stim gogogo !)

Edit: Actually, playing after awhile I have to say if you're using Armor of the Apoth you're most likely cornering yourself. Combat stimulants is the way to go unless you're being paired up with a tech marine. So, overall I am not sure if I would call him over-nerfed just a bit harder to use than before.

Edit2: WAT? How does heal exactly work? I am pretty sure like someone else mentioned that it affects each member of the squad. Which case that restores a lot more than you're giving credit for. In a matter of fact that it always restores half the health of every tac squad. -_-

[Steel*Faith]

Currently the Apothecary is still a useful commander from my experience fighting him, or having him on my team. I don't think he needs many changes, although his durability seems somewhat lacking, but for good reason it seems.

[FooF]

The heal does work on the individual unit basis, not at the squad level, which is my bad. I'm not sure why I said that.

However, unless you're in a long 3v3, you're never going to get to levels 9-10, you might hit 7-8, but you'll probably be in the 5-6 range at the end of the game. I'd love to see some numbers but my guess from experience is that the Apoth stays in the lvl 3-6 range in most 3v3 and 1v1. That being said, the heal, at best, is in the 260/unit range. With 3 Tacs in a squad, yes, it heals about 75% of the squad's health when they're lvl 1. However, as the Tacs gain levels, they also gain HP and the heal isn't as large of a % compared to their overall HP.

When they have near 1500 HP (w/Sgt), you better hope your Apoth is leveled up because a paltry 120/unit isn't going to do jack (and then you have to wait 30 seconds).

I think what is giving me the most frustration is the Recharge. It's an eternity in battle and during that recharge period, the Apoth has very little to offer outside of Combat Stimulent or Grenades (I can't say Pur. Rites because that's tied to the Heal!). You can't put him in dedicated melee because he gets shredded and if you keep him at range with the Bolter, he has no damage at all. A support hero shouldn't be one that is only useful for 1 second out of every 30.

Steiner raises a good point with the Stim, and I'll be honest, I haven't tried using it to the extent that I should before judging. It's a decent boost in damage when the situation calls for it but the I find that I am hurting for Energy between Stim and Heal, even with the power leech Axe. Armor of Purity, to me, helps my ASM far more than the damage simply because they're always in the thick of it and taking damage. I hate taking losses on them because they lose so much with 2/3 squad. It also allows me to heal the Apoth himself more because he's so squishy.

Armor of the Apothecarion, to me, is still hands-down the best because it can keep an entire army of Tacs on their feet under tremendous firepower. It will literally save you hundreds of Req and Power because you don't have to replace losses and you can constantly move forward because you don't have to retreat/regroup. Likewise, if the Apoth gets self-revived once, the Armor paid for itself in Req and any other times it does so, it's profiting you. It also beefs up the Apoth's HP and regen, which is such a hindrance. If you were to lab a mirror of Apoth w/Stim+3 Tacs vs Apoth w/AoA+3 Tacs, there isn't even a fight. Advanced Healing keeps the one army more than 2-3 losses while the other is a complete wipe.

That's why I will disagree with survivability in this game being inferior to raw DPS. Especially with SM. I'd put them at the same level. If you don't make survivability a priority, you lose troops, who cost a lot (in SM's case) to replace and then you get behind in the resource battle and then you get out-teched, etc. If you have raw DPS, yes, you'll simply kill faster, lose less because you mitigated the damage, etc., I see that point well. You simply have two schools of thought here. Win by attrition (survivability) or win by domination (DPS).

All this is said to reinforce the point that the Apoth, the epitome of keeping troops upright, only moderately does so because a.) the Heal mechanism is highly useful but rarely available b.) he's so squishy he gets whacked and c.) you have to sacrifice a lot resources to make him a good survivalist (AoA+Extra Energy). In fact, healing the Apoth himself is a massive waste of the heal because it only heals 120 HP when it would heal 360 on any other squad (which is why I advocate getting the regen buff back on the Apoth).

Like I said in the OP, he's still useful but he could use a slight tweak. I don't want him back to imba back in the Beta (where he was ridiculous) but he's only tolerable at the moment because of AoA. I want to be able to branch out and do what Steiner is suggesting but I when I judge the usefulness of Advanced Healing (and how superior it is to the regular Heal), I have a hard time justifying it (others might not, obviously). If the regular Heal was a little more robust, I think more strats could develop because he's not so gimped.

[SteinerNein]

However, as the Tacs gain levels, they also gain HP and the heal isn't as large of a % compared to their overall HP.


Heals scale up, so I guess you need to bank on not losing your Apoth and gain a few levels. If you level evenly then you'll end up always healing a bit over 50% hp per member per heal.



can't put him in dedicated melee because he gets shredded and if you keep him at range with the Bolter, he has no damage at all.


Welcome... to Warcraft 3 / DoTA style hero management? =/ You run in melee, then if they turn themselves on you then you pull back and let one or two things hit you while your entire force melees them.

If you're familiar with DoTA it's the same concept as Omniknight.



More stuff.


You aren't hurting for energy sir unless you're being e-drained. You have enough energy to land a heal and then stim, you'll have energy each time stuff recharges. Chances are.. you'll use both and the battle will be over. Either you've lost or you've won by then.

Furthermore, if you think about it a 75% (or more - I am pretty certain even though the number is 75% it does a lot more ;( - maybe I am on stims). means you kill a lot more and thus don't need to heal as urgently. For example, if you take a stimmed up Tac squad with a plasma gun and face it off with another you will only take one casualty while they lose the entire squad. Fair exchange imo!

As for the Armor of Apoth the problem with that is you're immobile and the enemy never has to fight you under those conditions. That or you're simply be arty'd in which case the knock back and DPS cannot be out healed. This is more realistic of a 3v3 situation but in those prepare to face a full barrage of D-cannon/Plasma/Zoanthrope and a Zoanthrope with Combat Stims scares me =/

As for the whole lab thing, try it with plasma guns on everyone and then stim one guy. Even with advanced healing you should not be able to overcome the DPS and die fairly quickly. In which case, I can always pull out and come out on top. Or perhaps, I will exchange a Tac squad for a plasma dev and then combat stim that.

Normally I would agree that there are two schools of thought and neither of them are more powerful than the other but I think here that the lethality in the game is a lot higher than survivability can offer. Again, I point to examples like artillery being stimmed or grenade toss stim timing etc.

Also Rites is pretty handy.

For 1v1 it's served me well, and for 3v3 my team is solidified with the Apoth / Farseer / Hive Tyrant =P

[Buguba]

Heals scale up, so I guess you need to bank on not losing your Apoth and gain a few levels. If you level evenly then you'll end up always healing a bit over 50% hp per member per heal.


Banking on your hero to level up is a pretty poor way of doing things. Balance should be done on all levels of gameplay. Units shouldn't be balanced for the early-game in contrast to their mid-game or vice-versa.

I think that's the main problem with the Apothecary. He's really weak in comparison to other heroes in the beginning. Apothecary is fine once he's leveled up a bit, but before then he's only really good for a (short) distraction. I'd say give him a slight buff to his heal ability at levels 1 and 2, but let it return to normal as he progresses.

I agree that he's fine once he's leveled up though. Even healing a Tac or ASM squad by a third of their health in the middle of a fight has won me countless battles. Healing also works awesomly on allied commanders (which is what it's meant to do).

[zer0ex]

just did a test with combat stims *albiet against a normal computer, but i was testing his damage, so it was sufficient.* it does help him out quite a bit, was one hitting guardian squads with the power axe. it was also decent enough against a commander; however i think it really shines against infantry. makes him a beast when he goes against infantry. i still like the other armors though. AoE healing and reducing heal cool down are really good...so its a tie between those 3.

[SteinerNein]

@ Buguba

What part of scaling do you not understand? If you play competently your hero will be able to perform at the new level. If you don't then you're just getting screwed regardless.

And as for your diagnosis , I wouldn't say he is particularly weak nor would I say he is strong.

[Buguba]

What part of scaling do you not understand? If you play competently your hero will be able to perform at the new level. If you don't then you're just getting screwed regardless.

Oops, my bad. I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that the state of the Apothecary was ok because his heal became useful after a few levels, not that the Apothecary heal ability maintained its use on higher level squads because it increased in power with the Apothecary leveling.

Ignore what I said.

[SteinerNein]

@ Buguba

=P

On a completely separate tangent : I know I am stating the obvious , but different units have different regen rates. If you casted a heal at level 5+ upon a Seer Council it would be massive. =p It would practically restore them to full.

[Vintage]

As a support hero, the Apothecary pales in comparison to the Farseer, another support hero. The Apothecary simply lacks support options. The Apothecary needs Combat Stimulants on the accessory tree. This will enable it to support units with multiple heals and a damage increase at the same time. Combat Stimulants is useful, but it isn't worth getting over Armor of the Apothecary or the armor that lowers the heal cooldown. If it is moved to the accessory tree, you can better support your units with the Apothecary.

One more thing, the bolter upgrade is extremely good. The focus fire ability knocks down units even if they are retreating (probably a bug). If you get the bolter you can stay in the rear and provide knock back, decent damage, and heals all from a safe distance.

[Waffls112]

Man, landshark all your comments just seem like they are there for the sole purpose of justifying your first "I think your whining so i'm going to attack you" comment.

[Buguba]

As a support hero, the Apothecary pales in comparison to the Farseer, another support hero. The Apothecary simply lacks support options. The Apothecary needs Combat Stimulants on the accessory tree. This will enable it to support units with multiple heals and a damage increase at the same time. Combat Stimulants is useful, but it isn't worth getting over Armor of the Apothecary or the armor that lowers the heal cooldown. If it is moved to the accessory tree, you can better support your units with the Apothecary.


Farseer doesn't have the heal ability though. Heal is all important. If the Apothecary didn't have the heal ability, he'd just be a very weak FC without ability to upgrade to AV. Even if heal isn't as good as it used to be, it doesn't stop the Apothecary from turning battles with it. That extra 200 health on your ASMs or Tacs can make the difference between losing and wining, especially when every squad counts.

You'd need to nerf combat stimulants in a major way if Apothecary got it automatically. I actually get combat stimulants quite frequently, depending on the fight. Combat stimulants + a Plasma tac squad can do more damage than an Apothecary with extra health can any day.

[Chronos525]

I totally agree with this thread. I have no reason to choose apothecary over FC any more, even in team games. The only good thing about him is his Armor of the Apothacarian (which is useless because victory points will end the game far before you get to this 80% of the time. Plus, it costs 200 power if I'm not mistaken). His health is too low to stay in melee with the power axe (his only way to do a decent amount of damage in melee). The bolter is decent and he can stay alive better. The sanguine chainsaw does hardly any damage.

I think Angels of Death was fine in beta (since troops can still be supressed/stuck in melee so the only way this could be seen as "overpowered" is with several assault marines/tactical squads or terminators). Now it's a joke. 500 zeal for like 10 seconds? Fuck that. I'll wait for 700 and get terminators.

Even Larraman's blessing is now indirectly less useful due to his survivability. He just dies again as soon as he gets up. He's pathetic. Until he's fixed, I'll stick with FC.

[redscare]

+1. IMHO I think they over-nerfed the poor guy. And I agree that he only needs a small buff to be back with a vengeance. Armor of the Apothecarian kicks ass, but it's 200/80. Until late T3 when you're already at max pop-cap is not really worth the power cost.

[zer0ex]

i think AoA (armor of the Apothecarian) is worth its cost. a AoE healing skill (even if it has a cooldown) and a chance to revive auto? that's pretty good. just run into melee with some ASM, turn on the healing aura. so much chaos going on that people will miss the apothecary while they wonder why they aren't killing the ASM.

[Atritas]

A chance to autorevive? You wish! It's an effin' guarantee of revival or your money back. I swear I managed to kill the bastard for good like two times out of fifteen when labbing... And then guess what? Larraman's Blessing! Seriously, there's gotta be some misplaced value there.

[Owa]

Apoth is a giant sack of fail. His first heal is too weak. He loses to ASMs 1v1. If you enjoy losing, choose Apoth.

[FooF]

Now, before we go overboard, let me say a few things:

First, I don't think the Apoth is a waste of a Commander that is completely underpowered compared to the other SM Commanders or other Commanders in general. He is good but it takes a lot to make him great, much more so than other Commanders. Why? He is highly dependent on leveling up, much more so than any other Commander. His primary function is tied to his level. Early on, he's simply too weak.

Again, make his own regen aura affect him (which will give him slightly added toughness) and increase the level 1-2 heal a bit and I'd be happy. His damage is fine (he's not a powerhouse), AoA is sufficiently costly, Combat Stims are a good alternative, and his heal becomes very effective with leveling. He's just too weak early.

That's why he needs a buff. If you're playing well, he does become very powerful as he levels but early on, he's entirely too frail and even when leveled up to the 8-10 range, he's still just competitive with the other Commanders. That is to say, he's super-weak early and progresses to "normal" later. That's a bad trade-off.

@ Buguba

He wasn't suggesting that the Apoth get Stims by default, he wants the Stims to be in the Accessory branch of the wargear instead of the armor. To me, that makes a lot of sense. However, that only leaves two types of armor and 4 Accessory choices. I don't know if I like that.

As I think about this, and this will never happen, you could switch Purification Rites with the Combat Stims and there you go. Make Purification Rites give +100 HP and the AoE damage and Combat Stims would be the same minus the HP increase. Thing is: Armor of the Apothecarion+Combat Stims would make Apoth incredibly powerful. Not only can he heal everything around them and make them virtually unkillable, he can boost squad damage too. What evens this out (slightly) is that the Apoth won't be able to get the Improved Medical Gear (extra Energy/regen) to fuel all of these abilities.

[Vintage]

You'd need to nerf combat stimulants in a major way if Apothecary got it automatically.

I didn't say give it to the Apothecary automatically. I said that it should be on the accessory wargear tree so that you can upgrade to have combat stimulants plus an armor at the same time. That is the only buff I would suggest. Leave everything else the same about the Apothecary.


Apoth is a giant sack of fail. His first heal is too weak. He loses to ASMs 1v1. If you enjoy losing, choose Apoth.

Not true at all.

[Chronos525]

I'm pretty sure a level 1 ASM will kill an apoth with ease.

[hellic]

A chance to autorevive? You wish! It's an effin' guarantee of revival or your money back. I swear I managed to kill the bastard for good like two times out of fifteen when labbing... And then guess what? Larraman's Blessing! Seriously, there's gotta be some misplaced value there.
In the beta, I must have killed an Apoc (with the AoA) 7 or 8 times. He just kept reviving in the same spot with my whole army around him. Probably not as hilarious for my opponent as it was for me though. =P

[SteinerNein]

First, I don't think the Apoth is a waste of a Commander that is completely underpowered compared to the other SM Commanders or other Commanders in general. He is good but it takes a lot to make him great, much more so than other Commanders. Why? He is highly dependent on leveling up, much more so than any other Commander. His primary function is tied to his level. Early on, he's simply too weak.


Build order changes on what hero you use. I told you before in PM and I'll tell you now: Tech Axe into Stimulants into AoE Heal or forego Axe.

He is a support hero and depending on semantics you can be either right or wrong. Proper usage of the said commander proves that the Apoth is competitive.

[FooF]

I know what you said in the PM and here now, but it's not a one-size-fits-all strat and I don't particularly like it. I've tried the combo prior to your suggestion and it just isn't my cup o' tea.

Combat Stims have their place, and I do like them, but when they're available, they're competing with all the other trimmings of T2 that also deserve attention, like Sgts and HWs for Tacs, ASM SGTs, Power Axe, etc. Not to mention that I'd be throwing away 90/25 because I'd inevitably want to get AoA.

BO's do change, and I'm not rigid in any of them, but you the fact is you need cappers and if you tech, you're going to be relying on three squads (Apoth, Scout, Tac/HB) for all of T1. Without the Axe, the Apoth is garbage in T1 and can't do much on his own besides tie up weapon teams in melee or beat on general infantry. He loses to dedicated melee, loses to other Commanders, gets murdered by suppression teams and falls quickly to ranged because of his low HP reserve.

I have no issue with the Apoth in T2, he's fine in T2 and can be very competitive but in T1 he's not competitive. You make it to T2 despite him, not because of him and that's my problem. All the Commanders are relatively weak early on but the Apoth is weak in a weak field. He might be able to beat a Techmarine or Mekboy in T1 but he'll lose to virtually every other Commander.

As I said in the previous post, the weak T1 could be justified if he was uber late game. Risk vs reward, and all. He's a fine Commander late game but I don't know if he's at the top (or near the top) of all the Commander choices. This is all subjective, of course, but I'd say he's on par with the FC and far superior to the Techmarine (not to derail but I can't find many redeeming qualities about the TM, see the TM thread). However, the FC never goes through a "weak" phase. He's strong in T1, uber in T2 and sustains that level of competitiveness in T3. Apoth is weak early, strong in T2 (with expensive gear), and ends uber once the Heal starts getting powerful.

He needs something more in T1. More health is basically all that is needed. Give him his regen back and with his self-heal, he won't get knocked over in 10 seconds.

[Hirmetrium]

I'm afraid, after everything, I agree with ESRFooF and other detractors.


A chance to autorevive? You wish! It's an effin' guarantee of revival or your money back. I swear I managed to kill the bastard for good like two times out of fifteen when labbing... And then guess what? Larraman's Blessing! Seriously, there's gotta be some misplaced value there. We went through this dude... its like 50% at best. Considering its the most expensive wargear after terminator armor (200/80 vs 300/150) I'd bloody well hope it does something besides give him ANOTHER skill to leech his energy.

List of issues:
1. He hasn't got any HP. Heal barely keeps him alive, and he does poor melee damage. All three combined means he can't 1v1 commanders in any situation, and loses even with your own units supporting.
2. Heal is crap. Its expensive, slow, poor at healing, and ultimately doesn't do what it should. Considering this is his MAJOR skill, it needs to be fixed. No, it doesn't need to return to its old levels, but it needs a buff.
3. His wargear is, ultimately, ineffective. While every other commander in the game uses it to improve their already terrifying skills (HT with VC and synapse and support skills, FC with Shield and really powerful weapons, Farseer to make her troops instagibbers, Warboss to tank, Kommando to sneak better) the apothecary needs his gear to remain competitive.
IMO, this is a sign that he is indeed underpowered. Wargear should not be a balancing factor, or used to bring commanders up to standard, but be balanced on its own, and ENHANCE exsisting skills they already possess.

Some very, VERY fine tuning needs to be done. Heres my suggestions:
Give him an extra 100 HP. Commanders already die very, very quickly, and the apothecary even faster.
Heal then needs tweaking, in ONE dimension - either the power being restored to pre beta levels, or the cooldown being reduced to 20seconds.

Thats it for now.

[SteinerNein]

Combat Stims have their place, and I do like them, but when they're available, they're competing with all the other trimmings of T2 that also deserve attention, like Sgts and HWs for Tacs, ASM SGTs, Power Axe, etc. Not to mention that I'd be throwing away 90/25 because I'd inevitably want to get AoA.


You aren't throwing away anything if you're going to win because of it . And as you know, just because it isn't your style doesn't mean it is invalid - this cannot be dismissed so easily.



BO's do change, and I'm not rigid in any of them, but you the fact is you need cappers and if you tech, you're going to be relying on three squads (Apoth, Scout, Tac/HB) for all of T1. Without the Axe, the Apoth is garbage in T1 and can't do much on his own besides tie up weapon teams in melee or beat on general infantry. He loses to dedicated melee, loses to other Commanders, gets murdered by suppression teams and falls quickly to ranged because of his low HP reserve.


T1 ends extremely quickly say within the 2 minute mark. And all you need to do is to stall. And you know what, other commanders get murdered by suppression teams and fall quickly due to range. Tech Marine , Farseer, etc. all of them die VERY quickly to focus fire, a bit faster because of the lack of healing too. =/

In the end, he's competitive period - micro determines how well you go into the later tiers. And honestly, I'd argue that he's superior than most come t2 and tapers off t3 when FC is a lot better (hint: the FC can be maximized to not be in hand to hand either)

[Saias]

I'd have to agree with steiner on this, the apoth is definatly competitive especially in team game, try combining the apoth with some ASMs and watch out much damage they can do together.

[FooF]

@ Hirm

I agree with your suggestions but let me move it one direction:

Move Heal back to 20 seconds and 30 energy but keep the amount of the heal the same. Instantly, Apoth is more survivable. Heal comes 1/3 faster, you can get Armor of Purity to reduce it to 13 seconds if you want faster heals on the Apoth himself and using Heal doesn't bankrupt the Apoth in two shots.

Voila. He's more survivable in T1 and Heal is back to being useful again. You could even curb the later level Heals to a lower level to compensate. Drop them all by 15% if it makes everyone feel better (leave lvls 1-2, 3-4, alone though).

If he's still made of glass but can heal himself more often, that's a fair trade.

@ Steiner

I never said the Apoth was unique in his position of being frail, however he is the frailest of the Commanders, heal included. He'll be able to use one heal in the above scenario which puts him at 620 HP overall. Compare that to the Farseer or Techmarine at 630 each. The TM can stay at range against high-damage suppression teams (where less damage is dealt) while the Farseer can put Guide on herself (or even Fortune that reduces incoming damage by 50%) or use Fleet of Foot to close the distance/escape. Only the Techmarine and Mekboy are equally screwed. All the other Commanders have sheer HP, infiltrate, fleet of foot, burrowing, etc. Apoth has a one-time heal that almost puts him on par with other support commanders.

The problem with Apoth in T1 is that you have to run every time the enemy commander is around and you don't have support. You cede map control by virtue of your frail commander. With only 3 cappers, you have to send them out on their own or you'll quickly lose the entire map. When two of the units (Apoth or Scouts) can be run off by a stiff breeze, you have one legit unit (HB or Tacs) that can hold their own. Thus, you have to pair up the Apoth with another unit and you're really down to two places on the map at one time while the enemy might be in 4-5 places at one time.

If you go FC, that FC is fine by himself, the Tacs are fine by themselves, and the Scouts are away from danger so they're fine too. It's easy to tech with the FC because he's worthwhile in T1. Techmarine needs love, just as much as the Apoth, because he has a hard time too, but at least Plasma is early and can stay behind cover.

As for the FC, I don't see a whole lot of people going with Termie Armor. Too many drawbacks. Iron Halo with Hammer is currently the super-combo, and people argue over the Artificer or Alacrity armor. T3 FC is still plenty awesome without the Termie armor (what's important about T3 w/ the FC is the Assault Termies that are available).

[SteinerNein]

Or alternatively, heal your Tac marines effectively bolstering their HP. Support hero, not solo. The heal is for emergency and beyond that there's the regeneration aura factor.

Furthermore, heal can be used more than once. So, I don't see why we're treating it as a one shot.

I don't cede anything immediately, FooF. This is now a tactical discussion no longer a balance one. They have 4 units capping, you have 3 units capping. This is given and the only one accepted. You lose by virtue of the fact that they are staying in tier 1 but the SECOND unit doesn't come out immediately from the production lines. So now it is a timing/mechanics issue.

'are away from danger' is a universal that can be predicated of any given unit. So that is to say, that is not an issue either.

If he can be competitive in tier 2 both early and late and transition, then it isn't an issue. Any involvement of tactics either needs a thousand some odd replays supporting the thesis or alternatively opening the discussion to various builds.

I told you that the Apoth is build dependent and you continue to ignore that.

[zer0ex]

well...the description of the apoth IS support....so yea....he supports the army vs leading it?

[FooF]

No, heal can't be used more than once. The Apoth doesn't survive 30 seconds in a fight and most fights don't last 30 seconds in general. Not to mention that you're not going to use the heal at the beginning of a fight (assuming full HP), but rather wait to maximize the Heal, the fight may be half over by the time you use it. In any particular fight, he'll get to use the heal one time so you have to choose between healing the Commander for 120 or a squad for 360. All the enemy has to do is FF on the Apoth and make him waste the Heal on himself (or make him retreat) and any advantage the Heal might have had is gone. The regen aura is barely noticeable mid-fight and only tips the advantage to the Apoth in identical match-ups.

That tactics discussion is tied to the Commander discussion because they can't be separated. No Commander works in a vacuum. You keep saying "Apoth is build dependent" but what Commander isn't? It's a moot point. Of course the Apoth is build dependent, all of them are. The Apoth is no more/less build dependent than any other support commander.

You keep saying "get to T2 asap" but that means you don't upgrade, you get to 45 power, tech to T2 then wait for the power to trickle in to get Stims/Axe, all the while you gave up map control, which you can't argue because against any other race but SM, you're going to be out-squaded 2:1 in T1 and can't keep anything locked down. How are you even going to keep the Power you control? You'll have to baby-sit whatever power you have because the enemy will ninja anything you take and they'll control VP early, putting you in a 100 ticket hole by T2. Any getting to T2 means nothing if you don't have the Req/Power to fuel anything, which you won't have. So what if they stayed in T1 for another 30 seconds, they have more Req/Power once they do hit T2.

This is a holistic complaint. It's meta-game in nature, that is to say, I believe the Apoth is weak because he weakens the SM meta-game. You can't hold the map, you can't solo him, his support early is limited to a single heal per battle and a little bit of extra health between battles. In T2, as has been said and agreed on, he's pretty good, but the problem is getting to T2 without being behind the 8-ball and having the resources to turn the Apoth into something decent without neglecting your army.

I know what you're trying to say and I don't disagree: this is completely subjective and you have to see multiple builds and such to see if there is truly any imbalance. But my experience has been that he's weak, after trying multiple BOs, different strategies and approaches. My conclusion is that he needs a slight tweak that improves his survivability in T1.

[SteinerNein]

@FooF

You have no idea what I am actually trying to say actually. You keep bringing in tactics that have completely no bearing on the issue because you can do counter maneuvers.

Instead you should have focused on the mechanics. Completely different story.

You know what? You also really need to look at the timings for things and how the mechanics pan out. Stop saying you cede map control when you're still contesting it.

Lastly, I am skeptical about your game play period. Something like this is rarely resolved by a single player. With enough games maybe but rarely.