SM != fun

[ctuth]

Okay. So you might read this as another rant thread but I just need some place to vent.
Space Marines are not at all what they are supposed/designed to be (in the TT). Playing SM in multiplayer right now is like playing Imperial Guard. My scouts and Tacs get taken out by any T1 squad from the other races (except for Eldar).
I use the the Apothecary as SM, its much more fun and the survivability is quite high, given your squads survive over a critical amount of time.
I cant be arsed to write it all down in detail, so I summed up the points about SM that annoy me the most atm:

- Scouts dont survive long enough, even with shotties they are pretty vulnerable

- Predator as a T3 unit is a joke, while Eldar pwn everyone with the Avatar and the Nid's Carnifex has your squads for breakfast.

- Overall survivability/req cost ratio is completely unbalanced, pop cap bug makes this even worse.

I wanted to mention something else but it slipped my mind.

Anyway, Im expecting loads of "l2p noob", "watch some replays noob" etc comments, but some sincere comments on this would be appreciated!

:bricks:

[b00mslang]

Tacs are one of the absolute best T1 units out there.

Among the T1 units that don't cost power, they are THE best.

Personally I've always found SM to be the funnest to play. Unlike nids you don't have to control 4 units straight off the bat, and 6-7 units by midgame. Your units are high hp/damage per model, lots of upgrades and activatable skills available, not to mention a ton of potential for micro and careful positioning (being a primarily ranged army).

[Demonic Spoon]

Space Marines are not at all what they are supposed/designed to be (in the TT). Playing SM in multiplayer right now is like playing Imperial Guard. My scouts and Tacs get taken out by any T1 squad from the other races (except for Eldar).
I use the the Apothecary as SM, its much more fun and the survivability is quite high, given your squads survive over a critical amount of time.
I cant be arsed to write it all down in detail, so I summed up the points about SM that annoy me the most atm:

- Scouts dont survive long enough, even with shotties they are pretty vulnerable

- Predator as a T3 unit is a joke, while Eldar pwn everyone with the Avatar and the Nid's Carnifex has your squads for breakfast.

- Overall survivability/req cost ratio is completely unbalanced, pop cap bug makes this even worse.



-Scouts are just that. Scouts. THEY AREN'T main combat squad. The ONLY t1 squad that can go toe to toe with a tac marine squad is a nid warrior squad.

-Haven't used pred much, can't comment

-Pop cap bug is nasty, but affects everyone.

-SM unit survivability is perfect for their cost.


If you use your units poorly, they will go down fast. Assuming you're using them with some degree of competency, though, the SM -do- have by far the most sturdy squads.

[Goobers]

If they aren't fun, play something else.

I have more fun and probably win more team games by just screwing around with the Kommando Nob and a couple of Kommando Squads than I do trying to play seriously with Space Marines.


Also the popcap bug hurts space Marines more than the others, because you usually retreat after you lose a man, or at least try to just before. Tac Squads suck with two members so your going to need to reinforce eventually and the squads are extremely expensive to just suicide them to get pop back. Orkz, Nids and Eldar can manage just fine with their cheaper units and lower pop costs.




Scouts are scouts, they are good for scouting and sneaky stuff. Give them shotguns and camo them, sneak up and get the jump on a weapons team.

Tac Squads need support since they are very tough but don't do much disruption. An Assault Squad to jump in and scatter the foe before moving the Tacs up, keep some scout shotguns behind them and use the knockback to your advantge.


Space Marines also play differently here than in TT because cover means something here, no more 3+ save in open fields for you. That said, NOTHING can beat a Tac Squad in green cover by shooting at it, artillery excluded.

[Latias418]

@demonic

affects SM more than any other race by far
the popcap bug only doubles the pop of the reinforcement needed to make the squad full
since sm have only 3 man squads, they can't afford to reinforce to 2 members like other races can sit at one less than full
in addition, they also take up more pop than any other race so when they do reinforce to full as they inevitably will it will be hitting them harder than the other races


That said, NOTHING can beat a Tac Squad in green cover by shooting at it, artillery excluded.

Suppression weapon teams go pewpewpew!

[HiveMind]

They don't play like the do in TT, no. They play like they should. They're super-elite, but fail in battles of attrition. In a straight fight, a huge swarm will beat your small, elite force, but if you use your Space Marines intelligently (like you're meant to) and concentrate your forces, you'll usually come out ahead. Space Marines are meant to be powerful at smashing their way through a position but weak if they get caught up in a protracted combat, just because TT instead portrays them as the n00b race does not mean Relic screwed up.

[zer0ex]

1v1 *except nid warriors*, tacs own anything. unless they're running towards a set up heavy weapons team *which is silly*. they're ranged damage, along with melee, hp and toughness are simply incredible. have you ever tried getting tied up with a slugga boy or gaunt squad in HTH? if you stay in the fray, most likely you'll wipe the floor with said opponent. sure, you can argue that you're always up against multiple squads, but hey, with an apothecary to heal, it makes things a bit easier. not to say its super easy to win a 2, maybe 3 on 1 fight *in terms of number of squads*, but SM ARE portrayed a bit better than in dow 1. scouts are meant for support, don't get him in HTH, and they'll produce for you.

the predator, i grudgingly say, is actually really good. the trick is to keep it at the back and let it blast away at things. it WILL kill anything that is thrown at it, the trick is using it appropriately. it has one of the higher DPS outputs compared to the other tanks *carni doesn't count. he's a monster class!*

to use the SM, go to the beginner's section. i wrote a thread detailing some basic usages for the SM in multiplayer, so it should be helpful in letting you get a better feel for the units. and the pop cap bug is a fluke, just do your best to ignore it or play through it.....

[dougan25]

everything has pretty much already been said, but i just want to reiterate a couple things.

-comparing the pred to the avatar and carnifex isn't fair. compare it to the fire prism and the looted tank. while still relatively weak compared to those two, they all have the same use. park it behind your units as fire support and reverse it when anything gets close. they're not designed to take a lot of hits.

-scouts should rarely be visible and should never be in front of the enemy they're fighting.

-TACs with an apothecary scare me more than any unit in the game save the avatar.

[ctuth]

Yeah, reviewing what I said about Tacs was pretty much bs, with an Apothecary as support they are pretty much invulnerable.

[redscare]

What I love about SMs is that ASM with sarge have about 1100 HP and the first unit dies at 450HP left. That helps a lot to win attrition wars, as you're making them spend res on reinforcements while you heal for free.

Scouts as support are great. Scouts as cappers are really sub-par. Unupgraded, against any other capper unit (guardians, sluggas, gaunts) they are forced to retreat. Against rippers they don't do anything to each other so they usually ignore each other :P

[Mokino]

I've never been an SM player but I can't believe how well they play in DoW 2.
-Tac squads are brutal when it comes to tanking
-ASMs are the best jump troops in the game (stormboyz are pretty pathetic, honestly,) -Devastator squads will utterly rape infantry once set up. D-Cannons are a bit better at it due to a shorter set up time but devs are more durable
-Termies are just plain mean if/once you get them out

Playing SM does teach you to play more conservative, though, as losses hurt more than with other armies.

[Logan054]

- Predator as a T3 unit is a joke, while Eldar pwn everyone with the Avatar and the Nid's Carnifex has your squads for breakfast.

Those units also cost a hell of alot more, to be honest if your going for T3 you looking to get orbital bombardment or terminators, not preds.

[Noble]

Is this a strategy thread? Is it a balance thread? I don't know. If you want to discuss specific problems you are having with the space marines then please make a new thread in this section bringing those problems up and soliciting advice.

If you want to discuss specific things about the SM army that you feel are unbalanced, please make a thread in the balance discussion section describing the balance problems that you've found.

Thread locked.