Anyone getting bored fighting as/against SM?

[Steel*Faith]

Seems like every time i fight a SM player, or have one on my time it's basically the same strategies. Pretty much everyone goes Thunder Hammer & Iron Halo FC, and Apothecary players which get the Sanguine Chainsword. Then it's usually a race to pump out tactical spam & plasma devs.

So I think SM are by far the most boring, and predictable army at the moment. Why don't SM players use different upgrades, likeTerminator armor, or the storm shield ect for FC? Not to mention you hardly see the Techmarine.

Is it because higher leveled players go with what's "Best" and don't bother to experiment, or is it most wargear options aren't very good for SM at the moment?

[Brenil]

Is it because higher leveled players go with what's "besr" and don't bother to experiment

It is this.

... and it isn't exclusive to Space Marines either. Every race has this issue when it comes to ladder, because in ladder people want to win first, and therefore used the tried and true methods to give them a win. The only time they feel the need to experiment are when they're facing inferior opponents or their tried and true method has been blocked by an innovative gamer.

Since late beta and most of the early release my chosen primary race, Eldar, had the same issue; everyone used the same 'ol method of pumping out x3 Guardians, Falcon, Fire Prism, with a Warlock hero. Know why? Because it worked.

Not me, I always used the Farseer, x2 Guardians, x1 Banshee build in most games. I got crushed quite often, but eventually I learned to play better and now win more often than lose. Others saw the discussions brought foward regarding innovation (not just from me, I take no credit for the popularity of this build, it was just something I did) and now the Farseer is becoming more and more common in ladder matches along with a resurgence in Banshees.

So yes, the problem is stagnation and a lack of willing to experiment or play with what you enjoy.

Another personal example of this, is my secondary race is indeed Space Marines and my hero of choice is the Techmarine. Am I any good with them/him? Not really. Do I enjoy it? Sure. I play what and how I want, not because what wins; but many people will always follow cookie-cutter 'pro' builds to try and eek out a win rather than come up with something on their own and face the possibility of losing.

[ViS]

If you want your opponents to give you a chance of beating them even though they're far better than you, go play AI skirmish with cheats enabled.

We experiment more meaningfully than any other part of the player population. How do you think popular builds come about?

[zer0ex]

i use whatever i feel like as SM. also, as an apoth user, i don't use the chainsword. starting to use the bolter again or the power axe. but as been said earlier, people just use what works.

[Brenil]

You experiment once you get to the top, ViS, not on your way to the top. Now you personally may have, but in general, it is far safer to climb the ladder in someone else's shadow than on your own in the sunlight.

Yes, once you're the pro of the game, you can afford to experiment all you want because most of your opponents are inferior in skill to yourself, but when you play equally skilled (or better) opponents it is typically the time to use something you know works than something you want to try if you mean to win.

[ViS]

Do you know what smurf accounts are for?

[HiveMind]

I play Apothecary and pretty much never use either the chainsword or plasma cannon devastators. Not everyone uses the same builds.

[Brenil]

Do you know what smurf accounts are for?

Yes and I never said that once you get to the top (or near to it) on one account do you experiment on the same one. You're also being rather presumptious that others do not experiment in the same fashion as well.

[Saias]

Paladin, the reason people use iron halo and thunder hammer on the FC is mostly because the other options are crap in comparison.
power sword? worthless
stormshield? worthless
powerfist has it's moments, but is generally beaten out by the hammer
teleport and banner has it's moments, but is genenrally beaten out by the iron halo
terminator armour? worthless

[ViS]

I might have jerked my knee a bit with my previous posts. I absolutely hate it when people make sweeping assumptions like this without even a slight idea as to what gameplay is like at the top of the ladder or in ESL.

[zer0ex]

u kidding? the teleporter turns your thunder hammer wielding FC into a 1 man assault squad. enemy commanders running away? no prob! teleport in front of him and smack him to death. all in all, its how you play them, not the build order, that counts.

[Steel*Faith]

I'd like to play with, or fight, SM players that use different strategies. I haven't seen the Terminator FC in awhile.

As for the storm shield upgrade, and power sword, so you think they should be made more useful so everyone doesn't just go for the same upgrades?

[Saias]

Exactly paladin, the powersword and stormshield are usefull in their own right and they DO have moments where they could be useful,l however the Thunder Hammer is such an amazing upgrade that you're always better waiting till tier2 to get it.

As for the terminator armour, well i've seen the damage values both in game and on paper...they're terrible. Not only are the assault cannon and heavy flamer upgrade utter crap but having terminator armour disallows you from retreating, thus making you extremly easy to kill.

just for the sake of comparison, here's some dps values to chew on...however do bare in mind there can be other factors to take into consideration.

Tactical bolter - 6.81
FC Terminator Storm Bolter - 17.14
FC Terminator Assault Cannon - 12.44
FC Terminator Heavy Flamer - 4.57
Techmarine Plasma Rifle - 22.52

burst damage and reloads change slightly, however you can see the FC Terminator's weapons are utter crap in comparison to his basic melee upgrades which do between 40 - 100 dps.

[Demonic Spoon]

You'll have people who parrot cookie cutter strategies. Just learn the ins and outs of your faction and you'll wipe the floor with them.

Seeing so many iron halo FCs has made it incredibly predictable...And with the right wargear on my TM, he dies ridiculously fast.

Wait for him to get into melee with my guys -> Drop nade on him, draining all his energy and turning off shield -> mark target + turn on the ability you get with consecrated bolter and he's dead in seconds.

[SteinerNein]

You experiment once you get to the top, ViS, not on your way to the top. Now you personally may have, but in general, it is far safer to climb the ladder in someone else's shadow than on your own in the sunlight.

Yes, once you're the pro of the game, you can afford to experiment all you want because most of your opponents are inferior in skill to yourself, but when you play equally skilled (or better) opponents it is typically the time to use something you know works than something you want to try if you mean to win.


Untrue. Innovation begins at any level given that you have some talent, luck, resources etc.

If you're a top player it may be easier and less time consuming but that doesn't mean that only top players can innovate. Even within the top there is stratification so that is to say unless you're number one you're not at top.

Also ladder wins are mostly meaningless; currently ladder serves only a few purposes and the ones off the top of my head are: 1) to ensure you aren't retarded 2) to make sure you have an easy way to get mediocre practice.

As the ViSmon points out, ESL is probably where it is at.

So that is to say I don't see the ladder argument. You don't need to climb ICCUp to be in KESPA either. You just need to win tournaments. =/

As for those people saying that Stormshield is useless that isn't necessarily true. Strategies are still being made.

But the bottom line is this, most people on ladder aren't playing to win. They're playing to prove themselves on ladder which isn't necessarily the path to winning in the most ultimate sense.

[Brenil]

Untrue. Innovation begins at any level given that you have some talent, luck, resources etc.

If you're a top player it may be easier and less time consuming but that doesn't mean that only top players can innovate. Even within the top there is stratification so that is to say unless you're number one you're not at top.

My quoted text was replying directly to ViS, it wasn't an isolated statement. If you read all my posts on the matter I basically summed it up as:

Any player can experiment, but when it comes to constant ladder players, the rule is to follow a tried and true method set by someone else and once you play lesser skilled opponents you typically will open up to bit. Folk who experiment on the way up the ladder (whether it is meaningless to you or not, it isn't to many people) are the exception, not the rule.

It is far more often one encounters someone using a tried and true strategy/BO/tactics than experimenting with their own and this is true in most games, not just this one.

[Mazuo]

Why don't SM players use different upgrades, likeTerminator armor, or the storm shield ect for FC?

This part was interesting to me so I'll just give my answers as to why I don't.

Every time I've tried Terminator armor, it's proven itself as a very expensive upgrade to turn the FC into a ranged infantry killer, but with paper-thin armor and no ability to escape death. If I choose the assault cannon, sure I can destroy infantry out in the open, but I have a lot of less costly ways to do that. If they're behind cover, it really seems to tickle them and a single vehicle will destroy me without lots of missiles backing him up. I've rarely used the flamer, but again it suffers from two big problems for me. Will it slaughter those in cover? Sure, but you'll never get to them. Incredibly slow walk speed coupled with ranged attacks dealing vicious damage and/or other melee troops and you're quickly dead.

As for the stormshield, when I first started playing I went to it as hopefully a method to counter suppression. The problem? Sure you hit the defend ability and your FC can run at the platforms and reduce his allies damage as well, but the closer he gets he takes excruciating levels of damage. I've been close to ones before that just barely finished setting up, but because of being so close several hundred HP dropped in seconds. So in the end it only seems useful if you're already able to flank them and have the armor that grants Sprint to get there quickly. I may try that out some more to see what results I can get from it, but I'm dubious.

On top of all this, let's say I spend all that money on Termie armor. Enemy FC pops his Iron Halo and I'm toast.

[SteinerNein]

Any player can experiment, but when it comes to constant ladder players, the rule is to follow a tried and true method set by someone else and once you play lesser skilled opponents you typically will open up to bit. Folk who experiment on the way up the ladder (whether it is meaningless to you or not, it isn't to many people) are the exception, not the rule.


I'll have to say that your argument is perhaps right but I am still unsure of the application - for it differs if you compare the progamers who are climbing the progaming 'ladder' to the chobo ladder (aka the normal one).

Scrubs will indeed do what you have said, but that is not true of the higher end ones.

As I think I pointed out ladder is meaningless and tournaments are the only thing worth looking at.

However, it is never the case that you want to experiment against a low skill player. Train mechanics with a newbies and then use experimental builds against higher players.


On that note, another interpretation is this: You never cease climbing ladder and the only way to stay on top is to innovate - large or small it doesn't matter because once the mechanics are established that's the only edge left.

@ In general



You'll have people who parrot cookie cutter strategies. Just learn the ins and outs of your faction and you'll wipe the floor with them.


Either my mind and eyes are failing or that this is indeed a HORRENDOUS statement. =/

@ Mazuo




As for the stormshield, when I first started playing I went to it as hopefully a method to counter suppression. The problem? Sure you hit the defend ability and your FC can run at the platforms and reduce his allies damage as well, but the closer he gets he takes excruciating levels of damage. I've been close to ones before that just barely finished setting up, but because of being so close several hundred HP dropped in seconds. So in the end it only seems useful if you're already able to flank them and have the armor that grants Sprint to get there quickly. I may try that out some more to see what results I can get from it, but I'm dubious.


Let me put it this way to you in possibly harsh terms: Basically, you feel that whatever concept you have a thing must be the function of a thing - in other words, you're arrogant. 'The Storm Shield is a possible way to defeat suppression oh but I died to a platform because it doesn't ward off the mega DPS at point blank! It's useless.'

Did it ever occur to you that possibly it could be used as a different version of the Apoth's AoE Heal? Did it ever occur to you that you don't have to run up your FC to the platform that you can literally overwhelm the platform with fire power because of the survivability offered?

This is always a bad mind set to have. You need to be 'willing' to push through and figure out the FUNCTION of the item as the laws of design dictate not what you perceive it to be. That's the difference between a scrub and a player who is playing to win.

[zer0ex]

steiner pretty much said it; the storm shield isn't just for the FC to run up to things. say a heavy bolter dev is in a building, u got yer FC and a tac squad with a flamer. all you need to do is get close enough with the storm shield aura for the tacs to flame a building. so yea....storm shield is pretty useful.

[Logan054]

I think the FC with terminator armour really needs a total rework, what i cant for the life of me understand is why he cant have thunder hammer + storm shield, hell i dont even see why he loses so many weapon options.

For me atleast when you upgrade to terminator armour it should be:

Power weapon + storm shield + teleport

options

thunderhammer + storm shield
Powerfist
chapter banner
Iron halo
(cant say im all that bothered about the ranged stuff, that isnt why i selected a FC anyways).

basically you should be trading speed and retreat for abit more than extra health while paying through the nose for it

He should also still be able to level up (even if it resets him to 0 )

Seems abit more viable to me, maybe this would mean a price inscrease for the armour, makes no sense to me that the power armoured FC's power fist is better than the FC in terminator armour.

As for the original point, well i have to agree, i do get abit bored of playing marines, to be honest i wouldnt be so bad if every game was either the tactical spam or the HB/Plasma spam. As others have said this isnt just the case of marines, hell, whenever i play nids 9/10 times the first thing i see is 3 units of hormies followed in short order, can you imagine my surprise :uber:

[Mazuo]

you're arrogant.

Sweet Jesus, could you troll a little more? I offered my opinions from my own personal gameplay experience. If you think I used the wargear incorrectly, suggest its correct use or bugger off. Else, you're contributing nothing other than to actually be the one being arrogant.

Also, if you bother to actually read what I wrote next time, you'll notice I didn't simply say that it was crap because you couldn't charge suppression weapons.

[Noble]

Lets calm down a bit shall we? This is a discussion about why specific SM strategies seem to be ubiquitous among ladder players. This is not something to get bent out of shape about. Maintain a little perspective here. :)

If this discussion cannot continue amicably the thread will be locked.

[SteinerNein]

Sweet Jesus, could you troll a little more? I offered my opinions from my own personal gameplay experience. If you think I used the wargear incorrectly, suggest its correct use or bugger off. Else, you're contributing nothing other than to actually be the one being arrogant.

Also, if you bother to actually read what I wrote next time, you'll notice I didn't simply say that it was crap because you couldn't charge suppression weapons.


Okay.

It wasn't so much of trolling but rather telling you exactly what is wrong with your mentality and how you could improve it so you can innovate on your own rather than relying on someone else since this game is still fresh.

I also told you exactly how you could use it by the way. It's outlined by the questions on whether or not it occurred that x device could be used in y way.

And you implied it was crap because you couldn't charge platforms or rather that a problem with it is that it doesn't serve x function. So while you didn't say it simply, it does point out how you thought about the matter and then later on why you ceased to use it.

The issue with that mentality is that you're never going to get better that way. I told you in, albeit it a harsh way as I had mentioned, that your method of thinking isn't optimal - best stick with the scientific method or at least a dialectical one.

And yeah, it is more apparent that I read your little snippet than you mine.

[Mazuo]

Lulz. I express my opinion, you call me arrogant, and now you come back with more garbage about how you're actually just an enlightened thinker using the scientific method. Gee, how modest of you.

Go back, read my post again. Do it again. And again. You either have problems reading or a giant stick up your ass. I'm guessing both.

Considering I'm going to continue to be met with idiocy and flaming, I'm done with this thread. Steiner can continue parading around as if he owns the board and dictating how others should post their findings or else feel his wrath.

[ViS]

Steiner IS right (both morally and factually), you know.

[Ellye]

Not to mention you hardly see the Techmarine.Ok, I´ll be honest, I hadn't read the whole thread. But as a SM player, I'll give a personal answer to this one: I'd love to play the Techmarine if his Rally Point wasn't actually a hinder to my teammates. They should keep the option to retreat to the base.

[Brenil]

Out of all the abilities the Techmarine has you don't use him just because of the relay? I'll be honest, I use him for everything but his ability to lay turrets and relays.

[SteinerNein]

Brothers In Arms from the Consecrated Bolter
Mark Target
Orbs of Omnissiah

or if you're Arkanandandnadnas you can swear by mines.

So yeah, Tech Marine is very useful.

People need to just simply explore the game; game mechanics have not been developed by players yet so 'strategy' at the most 'visible' form is at its best. When Relic stops patching the game or when they stop dealing with balance then mechanics slowly begin to take over.

What I am trying to convey here is that you people need to explore because while there are a lot of high tier players using basically what scrubs would call cookie cutter (in a negative fashion) those methods aren't necessarily at all tried and true.

That being said, that is the difference between real top players and the people who think they are going in the right direction. However, when game play mechanics settle and are mostly mapped out then trying innovate without mechanics is retarded.

[Ellye]

Out of all the abilities the Techmarine has you don't use him just because of the relay? I'll be honest, I use him for everything but his ability to lay turrets and relays.I do use (and like) him, but he's not my primary choice. Maybe If the relay didn't had the problem I mentioned I would use him much more. It could be a pretty good ability, in my opinion.

And yeah, the game is still new, there's much exploring and testing to be done.

[Kinmaul]

Techmarine is brutal in the hands of a skilled player. Mark Target + Brothers in Arms = The fastest I've ever lost my hero. A lot of people dismiss him because the Relay is terrible and 30 energy for Turrents is ridiculous. This means he's kinda meh early game, but late game after you get some wargear he is a beast.

If they changed the Relay so that you didn't retreat to it (and have it just be a static reinforce/healing beacon) it would be amazing. Also drop/remove the energy costs on the Turrent (lower the damage if you have to for balance sake).

[JanusRN]

I've been thoroughly challenged before by skilled TMs but their usage isn't as straight forward as the hammer + halo FC.

I personally use the Apoth with combat stims and the master crafted bolter quite extensively.

However this discussion has led me to do some lab work with the storm shield's defend ability. The defend ability drains 5 energy/sec so you won't use the halo, the teleport pack can be handy but conflicts in usage with the defend ability. I did some basic testing and the defend + rally with tacs and it is pretty effective at least in a ranged combat scenario. At the very least effective enough to want to try it out in a normal ladder match.

As an after thought, I wonder if ATSKNF charges up for the full damage amount while under the defensive bonus of the defend ability.

[Jester Desu]

I had no idea tech marine turrets cost 30 energy!

Yeah they're nice damage output but extremely vunerable and 30 energy is best used elsewhere imo. They should be like 10 at most, but make sure they have a cap of 2 on them or something.

[JanusRN]

The damage was nerfed during the beta and from a lab that Foof did, they do less than half the damage of a dev squad. So in my opinion the damage isn't very nice at all.

[BombrMan]

I think the problem is that innovation isn't necessarily valuable for its own sake. If you have a method that works consistently why would you change it unless it is consistently overcome. That being said the standard FC wargear is very reliable in battle. Comparatively, you can make other combos work but is that really valuable? The wargears should each be useful in their own way and right now the comparative value of each wargear is very different, and the cost isn't set up to balance that. The terminator armor is cool, but in combat the only time I can use it is if he cruises around with a term squad and if that's happening, there are a lot of non-retreatable resources in one place.

Ultimately untill there are strats that are dispersed through the population to counter the standard builds, people won't really search for other ones in a major way. Also the few players that do will have alternate methods, but those won't become popular in the gen pop unless they are better than what people are using. If you really want to have people stop using the hammer + boots + lolBubble come up with a good way to counter it for each race and spread the word. The same goes for any other popular method.

[Kiri]

It's astonishing how many people refuse to change their playstyle to fit the situation. I never get bored of Space Marines, since theres so much you can do with them... but quite a few people I've played do NOTHING but spam out Tac Marines. It's easy to counter, just as Plasma Devs are easy to counter. And yet sometimes they just churn out replacement Devs and Tacs for the ones I've killed.

The only thing that makes SM boring is when you stick rigidly to a build and never deviate. You might not have to deviate to win, but sometimes throwing a unit in that you don't usually use can make a hell of a difference, both in battle and to your playing experience.

I use the Apoth for that reason, really. FC is really, really boring. IH + Alacrity + Hammer, send him in, hit x when he's about to corpse it. Job done. Generally, for the Apoth, I take the consecrated bolter for the knockback, the AOE healing armour, and the increased regen thing for the final slot. He's not the best hero, he doesn't do as much damage, but he works for me.

[SgtSteve]

First off, no I'm not getting bored fighting AS space marines, they remain my favorite race. Although Orks are starting to appeal, they're just so damned FUNNY to play with (voice overs). As for playing against space marines, I'm pretty sure that they're the race I see the least. Just yesterday I played my latest ranked game, and I clearly remember my surprise when the enemy scouts and FC made an appearance. So much so that I had to rethink my opening strategy a little, because it had been a steady diet of orks and 'nids all day.

About the Terminator FC: Am I remembering incorrectly, or doesn't he have a teleport ability? That's something you could use to escape a sticky situation, in place of the usual fallback option. Still, I find it hard to justify the expense of the upgrade when you factor in the loss of all previously purchased wargear.

I find the flexibility of the space marine army continually refreshing. Sure, some of the builds people use get annoying, especially the approrpiately named 'lolhammer' FC, but no build is bulletproof. As has already been mentioned, suppression is invaluable, and a suppressed FC is sooo slow.

EDIT: Pfft. No teleport. About the only good thing I've been able to find about the Termie armor is the instant heal you get when you equip it. Not so much a heal, but rather an increase in your total hit points, and the amount it increases by is in health. Still, it's not going to save you if you're in deep. I'd really like to hear a tale or two about someone effectively using the FC's supposed 'best' wargear upgrade.