Rippers ! ? something wrong?

[AlienHack]

Hallo,
after having a 3vs3 match yesterday i noticed something about reapers.

Well, i understand that they are supposed to be tyranids' anti suppression units (because of the lack of jump-assault unit) but THEY ARE OVERRESISTAND!!

I mean if you do the classic trick with one Heavy bolter covering another one then if an eldar or space marine, attack your forward heavy bolter (with jump marines or warp spiders) the second Heavy bolter will anihilate the jump marines/spiders

BUT IN THE CASE of the reapers well!! THEY JUST DONT TAKE DAMAGE FROM heavy bolters!!

In one case i had 2 shurican platforms one next to the other, and in front of them there was a reaper unit capturing a control point, THE REAPERS SURVIVED ENOUGH TO CAPTURE THE POINT AND COME ATTACK MY PLATFORMS! All this time both of the surican plats were constantly firing at the reapers!!

I mean!! they are so cheap!! no energy to build!! and they OWN plats!! Even if you make them, go into melee they just don't die cause they are so many smaller individuals!! it takes for ever to kill all of them! only flamers do them justice! but eldars have no flamers... :-S

[mccrorie]

nades do the trick but they are few in number :(

[Delta_Assault]

Reapers? There aren't any Reapers in DoW2...

Oooooh, you mean Rippers.

Yea, they're pretty tough.

[Flormelis]

Considered using something else than shurikan platforms?
I know rippers are annoying, but admit it you are not supposed to be able to counter everything with one unit.
Yes, you can not go melee on them, because platforms stink in melee, get something that is designed for melee combat and it is good.
Rippers go for 240 req, which is the same as hermagaunts and termagaunts, but they also do alot less dmg and takes more population.

[Red Dox]

Oh my, your plattforms don´t work? Whats with throwing plasma grenades from your guardians? Or doing area dmg with a freaking warlock hero?

-----Red Dox

[The Voltr0n]

they arn't that bad, they can be suppressed and slowed.. once in melee they die easy, try to suppress and melee, with what ever u have (guardians... etc) it keeps them in one spot

[Octopus Rex]

Area effect weapons are effective on them. Rippers are tricky, grenades are frequently not available soon enough, and the trouble with rippers is not the rippers themselves, but the fact that they tie up any key defences and allow the hoard-blob to swarm you much more easily. Keeping some rippers in melee or tying them up to allow a grenade throw frequently means allowing the hoard to catch up and overwhelm you. Not advisable. Most other anti-suppression units have this ability restricted by energy so they can't just keep doing it over and over and over, but rippers don't.

[Red Dox]

@Kratos: 10 power for grenades is piece of cake. Should be done in the moment were you have first enemy contact on the map. So you upgrade your second guardian squad running fresh out from base, and not the first one that should be engaging/retreating from the enemy first contact. And your Warlock hero _starts_ with his AE clash attack if i remeber correctly, so now power cough for this either (same goes for Ork Warboss).


Rippers are tricky, grenades are frequently not available soon enough, and the trouble with rippers is not the rippers themselves, but the fact that they tie up any key defences and allow the hoard-blob to swarm you much more easily.

Can blob up the nids on your hero/first guardian squad and nade the swarm with second squad ;) On the other hand, the first post is complaining about rippers capping a VP and after that reaching his dual plattforms and bind them. I mean grenades versus rippers that stand still and are capping...how tricky can this be?

And lets not forget that rippers need at least synapse to engage plattforms on a useable basis. Without synapse and marching straight in the fire arc, they get slaughtered (at least mine does every time in the first contact minutes with ravener and gaunts). So in the first minutes there need to be a tyrant cause 15 energy for warriors and build time + going to midfield where they are need to boost the rippers are time enough to duck in with one plattform and 2 guardian squads with at least 1 grenade upgrade. In a sidenote, the last highrankend eldar players i saw, don´t have much plattforms. 3 guardian squads throwing grenades all the time and fleet of footing around the orcs/tyranids with a warlock hero to nuke the grenade damaged blobs are more common then the above complained "useless" dual shuriken barricade.

-----Red Dox

[AlienHack]

I didnt use ONLY my plats! i threw grenades at them but they are fast enough to avoid, and even if the get caught up in the grenade they dont die ..
Also if they manage to tie up my platform then throwing a grenade means blowing up my plat

Now about supression, DO THEY GET SUPRESSED? 2 of my shuriken were firing at them and they didnt get supresed!

[baionetto]

Rippers DONT TAKE the suppression, they can decap and cap a control point UNDER fire of Heavy Bolter/shuriken... no comment, after capped they retreat in base and GRATIS reinforce the unit.

NO COMMENT


So... i must use a heavy bolter + melee squad for kill 1 unit of rippers ??? or...shuriken + guardian + granade for kill 1 unit of rippers ??? what are u talking about men ? they are imba anyone know this...wait no all...Relic dont know this...

[Pyro Paul]

Rippers DO TAKE SUPRESSION

They are only Suppression Immune when they are near a Synapse Creature. Of which, focus on the Synapse Creatures. If a Synapse Creature dies, all synapse dependent things in the Creatures area of effect get knocked back and are temporarly weakened against all forms of fire.

further more, after that creature is dead, the rippers will almost instantly get supressed because they don't have a high 'courage' value.

Rippers = Meat Shield/Distraction.

[AlienHack]

THATS what i am talking about!!
you need 2 units costing more than 900 & 40 energy to kill one cheap unit costing 240?

AND EVEN with shuriken + guardian + granade you dont kill the reapers, not even drop them to half energy.. tried it...

[Pyro Paul]

Considering that he has to use a 240 req Ripper squad Plus a 400 req and 15 power (minimum) Synapse creature in order to 'counter' your 375-400 req Bolter/Plat... Yeah, it is balanced.

you are the only one that thinks it is imba.


Hell, i've seen vanilla Force Commander/Warlock kill an entire ripper swarms single handedly.

they are over priced meat sheilds...
they are balanced...
learn more about your opposition and how to combat them rather than complain because you don't understand their mechanics.

The only problem with the Ripper squad (and all synapse dependent creatures) is the fact that the Synapse makes them damage resistant the more the nid player techs. It is kind of annoying that a Teir 3 Ripper squad under a synapse effect is more or less Just as resilent as a Tact Marine Squad .

[AlienHack]

Hell, i've seen vanilla Force Commander/Warlock kill an entire ripper swarms single handedly.????


IN HOW MUCH TIME? 15 mins??
ofcourse the commander will kill them in the end but it takes him almost 5mins!!!
THATS ALOT TIME in a game of 15-20mins..

I DIDNT say that they kill and own everything , just that they resist too much everything, they dont get supresed, they are like 14 of them in a swarm and take forever to kill!!

having 2 units tied up for 30 secs just to kill a 240req unit is crazy!!


Considering that he has to use a 240 req Ripper squad Plus a 400 req and 15 power (minimum) Synapse creature in order to 'counter' your 375-400 req Bolter/Plat... Yeah, it is balanced.

why does he need the synapse? they manage well enough by themselves

[Pyro Paul]

... how many times do i have to say it?

Ripper swarms are not suppression immune by Default


Ripper Swarms only become suppression immune when under the influence of a Synapse Creature. be it the Warrior Brood (400 req 15 power) Zoanathrope (400 req 40 power) or Hive Tyrant (~250 req/free)

With out a Synapse Creature, Rippers become suppressed like any other unit in the game. They are cannon fodder and are balanced as such. just because the Nid player is out playing you doesn't make Rippers imbalanced...

[Red Dox]

@Alienhack: So now the rippers running circles to avoid your grenades at the same time they capping a Victory point? ^^ And yes, IF there is synapse around the rippers, your supression IS useless. Thats how the game works and that is the only way besides tunneling to counter Eldar/SM that dug in with plattforms/heavy bolters. And here we go again. The ripper+synapse rock counters your plattform supression scissor so go and try some grenade throwing, warlock raping, wild running paper to counter.
Complaining over the ingame counter to your stragey, you can also copmplain that your 2 shuriken plattforms can´t take a dreadnaught down.

And a shurkien plattform dies if i throw a plasma grenade on my own troop to knock the rippers out? Interesting, i must take a closer look to this "fact". I would swear the last times where i hit my own men with grenades they survived.


IN HOW MUCH TIME? 15 mins??
ofcourse the commander will kill them in the end but it takes him almost 5mins!!!
Force Commander maybe. But Warlock & Warboss have powerfull AE dmg abilities without taking a single upgrade.

@Baionetto: Bubbledin Lolhammer can also capp a point under suprresion fire and don´t cares if 1-2 troops are firing on him, yeah no comment, i know.
I don´t know how hard it can be, but for capping Rippers VS SM, i would suggest a simple flamer should do the trick. Or at t2 a scout grenade, but here i think is the balance little screwed, compared how much cheaper/earlier guardian grenades or stikkbommas come.

-----Red Dox

[AlienHack]

i dont care about the fact that they cap while under fire..
I just mentioned that they dont stop at nothing when they dont get supresed,
now about what you said that they resist supress only when they are under synapse then ok, i'm sorry and the extra cost of the warriors maybe sweetend the deal.

ALTHOUGH from the begining of a game if you have your hive tyrant and a ripper swarm then you are supression immune... and that takes care of all plat units...

[galdred]

Ripper Swarms only become suppression immune when under the influence of a Synapse Creature. be it the Warrior Brood (400 req 15 power) Zoanathrope (400 req 40 power) or Hive Tyrant (~250 req/free)
It's not like these synapse creatures didn't bring other benefits as well.
Nads are avoidable indeed, and not everyone is playing warlock...
It's not like tyrannids were balanced, but it might not be the ripper fault. However, under the current situation (with hard to kill, high DPS synapse units), rippers are too strong, even though they might not be the ones needing rebalancing (it might be so that synapse units are too good for their cost).

[AlienHack]

maybe GLDRED is correct, maybe its not direct rippers fault , BUT at this time when a match starts tyranids with 240req can build an effective ANTIplatform-supression unit (with the help of the hive tyrant which suposedly you have from the start)
while all other races need 500+req and ~40 ENERGY for such a unit (assault marines, warp spiders, ork jumpers)

[Rhedd]

True story: I've dropped one Guardian grenade, the default Warlock AoE spell, and the Warlock's Immolate on a group of rippers, all while firing on them with those units, and they still managed to decap the strat point and retreat (where they healed back to normal for FREE.)

Tell me how I should've used some T3 unit, instead. ^_^

They're theoretically counter-able, but since they're pretty much a cap-this-point button, and they reinforce for free, I think they're just the tiniest bit OP.

And good luck killing them with a grenade while they're swarming another one of your units. Killing your own expensive troops != good.

[baionetto]

@Baionetto: Bubbledin Lolhammer can also capp a point under suprresion fire and don´t cares if 1-2 troops are firing on him, yeah no comment, i know.
I don´t know how hard it can be, but for capping Rippers VS SM, i would suggest a simple flamer should do the trick. Or at t2 a scout grenade, but here i think is the balance little screwed, compared how much cheaper/earlier guardian grenades or stikkbommas come.

-----Red Dox

Dude...you have reason
give the flamer at tactical means to throw it away for rest of the game...(500 req) only for TRY to destroy a unit of tier 1 that cost 240 requ ?
As for the grenades, were effective but truly come to tier 2 and ONLY AFTER you upgrade the sergeant

Please, all think ... to get a ridiculous grenade I have to do the tier 2, upgrade to sergeant and a team of scouts.
Otherwise I have to sacrifice a team tactics giving the flame and then make it almost unusable for the rest of the game.
All this seems normal? I think no...

[Pyro Paul]

it is as if you people arn't reading...



The only problem with the Ripper squad (and all synapse dependent creatures) is the fact that the Synapse makes them damage resistant the more the nid player techs. It is kind of annoying that a Teir 3 Ripper squad under a synapse effect is more or less Just as resilent as a Tact Marine Squad .


Tech increases the Synapsies effectiveness.
A Teir 3 Synapse imparts a massive health bonus to any creature under the effects of the Synapse Aura. further more, most synapse creatures have an additional augmentive aura which further increases certian aspects. a Hive Tyrant with the proper upgrades at teir 3 makes Hormagaunts, Termagaunts, and Ripper Swarms basically As Resilant as Tactical Space Marine Squads.

Hyper Effective Synapse effects, Warrior Omni-effectiveness, and Zoanathropes Damage shield are considered the Primary reasons as to why Nids are over powered at the moment. It has been discussed to death and is known by relic which are going about effective ways to rebalance the units.

[WhiteDeVile]

What Rhedd said up there ^
Is true, I second that from my own experience, and I wonder how most of the - "rippers are fine ZOMG L2P!!11" guys will respond to those.

[Engine]

I got my silly trueskill by playing Ravener for about 150 1on1 games, and couldn't bring myself to use Rippers because they're just plain overpowered.

I love the IDEA of a cheap, resistant tie-up unit like Rippers, but they're ridiculously OVER-resistant in reality.

[Pyro Paul]

most would respond 'Replay or it didn't happen' because a single ripper squad going up to a point and trying to decap while being blasted by that much crap doesn't happen unless if specific guide lines are met.

from my experience, i've seen scouts kill a ripper squad before it decapped a victory point. from my experience, i've killed an entire ripper squad with a single plasma nade. but certian conditions where met which made these things possible and should not be considered 'the norm'...

for instance, if the nid player did Tyraniform and/or had a hive tyrant near by, then yes, i would say that what happened is possible because a Teir 3 ripper swarm under hive tyrant synapse and Capalary tower effects does make them That resilent. or if that specific point was constantly being orbitalled creating massive craters which provided green cover... again, yeah it is possible.

but you shouldn't think that is the way it always goes down.

[Engine]

Paul, are they or are they not far too resilient, in all tiers of gameplay?

[Demonhorde]

I don't see rippers as far to resilient. The dmg they do is low they only tight you up just use aoe tactic on them and they die. If the ripper is out of synapse you can use suppresion. I honestly think this is abit l2 counter and your just getting outplayed. As SM I killed 3 ripper packs with a warrior adgland synpase EASY. Just use jump and the strike ability and you own them bad. Warriors get eaten alive by asm if played well just attach a seargent and watch the knockdown eat them up.

[armen]

Suppresion units are worthless in this game, when people realise this rippers wont seem much like a problem.

instead of that heavy bolter or platform make a tac squad or save for assualt squad or guardians/banshees. Much more worth your resources and they are way more mobile and usefull later game than a heavy bolter or plat.

[Rhedd]

It's not about killing them before they hurt you. They're never going to hurt your units.

It's not about suppressing them. That's not impossible either.

It's about killing them before they decap/cap a point, which you can't do unless you pour ten-times more resources on them than they cost. Rippers, at any tier, against equivalent tiered troops, WILL cap/decap a point and retreat unharmed, unless you throw your entire army at just that one little squad.

The fact that they don't do any damage doesn't matter. The point that they can be suppressed doesn't matter. They cap/decap the point, no matter what you do, and then you have to use a valuable unit to undo the damage.

[notastatwhore]

... how many times do i have to say it?

Ripper swarms are not suppression immune by Default


Ripper Swarms only become suppression immune when under the influence of a Synapse Creature. be it the Warrior Brood (400 req 15 power) Zoanathrope (400 req 40 power) or Hive Tyrant (~250 req/free)

With out a Synapse Creature, Rippers become suppressed like any other unit in the game. They are cannon fodder and are balanced as such. just because the Nid player is out playing you doesn't make Rippers imbalanced...


I know the OP sounds like a broken record but it seems as though you believe rippers are balanced based on your tone. They are on paper maybe, but in practice I have to disagree with you. I was a former nid player(now play space marines and honestly i have to say that the fact that rippers are free to reinforce is utterly insane.

In essence this allows a nid player to just waltz in and cap under fire or even risk pushing through suppression fire without synapse because there is no tax on losing members of a squad. i cannot count the number of times i would send my rippers to cap a point under fire without a care. I've had ripper squads reduced to 1 before i would retreat and reinforce for FREE, without a care. Rippers need to have a cost for reinforcement. IMO I feel this is the true solution to fix how unbalanced they are. In addition making them more susceptible to AOE is a must. Everything else can stay the same.

All the arguments i see that claim counters exist have 3 things in common.....they are either costly, come in tier 2, or only marginally effective. Flamers on tacts is barely viable, overly expensive, and they scale poorly(they are negated when you put tacts in melee). Kill the synapse creature you say? Try doing that with the nid player using gaunts/rippers as a screen. Not an easy feat and micro intensive. not to mention you have a very small window of opportunity. It only gets worse if nid is in tier 2 and using AG synapse. Horms will jump you(right over an cover as well), and engulf any units trying to gun for warriors in a heart beat and leave you little to no hope of escaping the blob of doom.

I've had less and less problems facing off against nids for one reason and one reason only. Garrisoned devastators. Nades are way to easily dodged by rippers...if they hit they still survive. Garrisoning units is key as the only answer nids have is venom cannons and spore mines. Layering up devs one behind the other(or shruiken cannons) isn't really effective against nid because of anti suppression aura and resilience of rippers. Especially AG warriors. Assault marines come way to late. Rippers resilience also nets nid players insane map control

And to the OP

don't go crazy focusing on rippers though. they really are fodder because they barely do damage but the fact that they reinforce for free is the only thing that makes them so effective. Nid players don't need to have much skill to outplay anyone...the synergy between the nid units allow for much less micro intensive play. An engage and forget mentality is dominant. In most cases the blob of doom with endure. your claims are legitimate but redundant...we've heard it way to many times.

[hellic]

1) Rippers have a bugged health regen.
2) Rippers have a damage resistance aura.

So, T1 ranged units (aside from maybe Tacs; includes suppression unless they're 2 inches away) cannot kill Rippers at all, even when they're under suppression. You can't stop them from capping, except with AoE weapons like Guardian nades. However, you need perfect positioning (that is, you need to be lucky enough for the Rippers to be in the perfect, tight grouping) to kill an entire Ripper squad with a nade or with the Warlock's Destructor. If your opponent is paying attention, the Ripper squad can finish capping (as long as the Warlock isn't meleeing it), retreat with 100-200 HP usually, reinforce for free, and come back 10 seconds later. You, on the other hand, have a Guardian squad extremely vulnerable to Hormagaunts (nade cooldown, remember?) and all you can do if the enemy sends a squad after your GU is retreat or hide in a building.

Relic needs to fix Ripper's bugged health regen ASAP before further balancing tweaks.

[dtitov]

Ah, i see you just started to play the game. Play if for another months or so then come back. I do not mean to insult you but it's obvious you haven't played nearly enough.

[Deacon412]

Use the warlock hero..get grenades..use banshees @_@

[hellic]

Use the warlock hero..get grenades..use banshees @_@Sure, but this doesn't dismiss the fact that Guardians do NO damage to Rippers without grenades. They're just way too durable. Even with grenades, GU can merely force a retreat and cannot completely kill a Ripper squad before it decaps.

[Engine]

If Nids really want to pressure eldar with low-cost melee units, they should need to use Hormas, imo. Rippers should be less effective at tying up ranged units in melee, less effective at capping points, and be used primarily as what I believe their intended purpose originally was - the nid answer to entrenched suppression units.

[Buguba]

Why are you guys even arguing about this?

The answer to your question Alienhack is, yes, Rippers are OP. Also in the news: Nids are OP and Eldar T2 is UP. Welcome to the forum. Now you know what everyone knows.

If you want strategies to use against Rippers as the Eldar, go post in the Eldar Strategy section (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=252) . If you want to discuss the balance of Rippers and how to make them not OP, go add your thoughts to the Ripper's balance thread (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=216586).

Or rather, you can just go to the balance section and throw in your two cents about the Rippers in any discussion titled "Nids." ATM, pretty much every Nid unit gets brought up in the OP Nid threads anyway.

[Rhedd]

Succinct and accurate, Buguba. ^_^

[Osborn]

i guess i'm just plain suck and stupid to have my rippers got melee killed by scout in like 30 seconds everytime i play against SM....

[notastatwhore]

i guess i'm just plain suck and stupid to have my rippers got melee killed by scout in like 30 seconds everytime i play against SM....


the possibility exists. Don't be too hard on yourself though. paying attention to the mini map/ hitting retreat will solve that problem in no time

[Osborn]

the possibility exists. Don't be too hard on yourself though. paying attention to the mini map/ hitting retreat will solve that problem in no time

that may be true,
but after i don't use them anymore,
i figure spending the resource on other "useful" things works better for me at the moment.

now that's 1 thing off my army list for a while
(yea...i'm lame, i have a "must-build" list for tyranids :P)

[Saias]

It'd take just over 40 seconds for a scout squad to kill rippers(assuming no hp regen which rippers have massive amounts of), why would you leave them in combat with scouts?

[Osborn]

It'd take just over 40 seconds for a scout squad to kill rippers(assuming no hp regen which rippers have massive amounts of), why would you leave them in combat with scouts?

I'm not sure how they managed to did it that fast but it doesn't last 40s for sure...

I was just trying to decap and cap, then saw the scouts run in and my rippers = RIP. just that.

[Saias]

scout fist dps = 7
rippers reduce melee damage by 70%
rippers also have bugged hp regen

/shrug

[Rhedd]

scout fist dps = 7
rippers reduce melee damage by 70%If he was trying to cap, the scouts were probably shooting, not meleeing.

I still don't think scouts can kill rippers anywhere near "quickly", but I don't play Marines much. How well do shotguns work against Rippers?

On a different subject, I like all these arguments that say Rippers are so easy to counter as Eldar, just use the Warlock! Well, I usually do, and it's still not easy, but I like the way one piss-ant starting Tyranid unit forces you to pick exactly one of three commanders, or lose. Yeah, that's balanced.

[Osborn]

hmm... may be i remember wrong about the melee part ...
but just by seeing how fast they went down,
i decided not to use them any more...

[dtitov]

scouts could've used a grenade or shotguns both of which are deadly to rippers. In melee though ? Would take ages.

[AlienHack]

I visit the forums regularly but not everyday. So i didnt know that rippers were considered OP. I knew that Tyranids in general are considered OP .

I just wanted to note what i saw VERY CLEARLY in a recent match . That 2 ripper swarms couldnt be stoped by 2 shurican, 1 guardian and my exarch. Not before they engaged bboth my plats and the warrior brood squad from behind anihilated my guardians and plats..

[The Voltr0n]

haha you should know nids are OP by looking at them :P,
thing is the rippers can cap and decap like someone said before without dying or getting suppressed... and their cover bonus when retreating means they can't die... because its huge...

They should be fixing this stuff anyway, i'm sure relics listening }O.o{

[AlienHack]

If relic doesnt listen ... THE EMPEROR DOES! and he will rain death over the OP rippers!!
hahhahha

[Pyro Paul]

i personally don't think the rippers are OP, i think the synapse effect is. it turns the unit which is suppoed to be cannon fodder into something which has health conisderable to tactical marine squads... that just isn't right.

but rippers, alone by themselves, are fine.

[Schlamiel]

Synapse may be the thing making them OP´ed, but nevertheless, they have bugged health regen, and they are free, so i would say its a combination. They sure need fixing

[Jes]

Rippers could probably do with a minimal reinforcement cost, slightly slower reinforcement and a slight increase in cap time.

But beyond that, it's synapse that needs tweaking.

[Schlamiel]

Rippers could probably do with a minimal reinforcement cost, slightly slower reinforcement and a slight increase in cap time.

But beyond that, it's synapse that needs tweaking.

I think I agree, maybe that would fix it. As it is now they are really broken

[The Voltr0n]

General Tyranids need tweaking my man... theres so many things that can be taken advantage of in the Tyranid army, its sometimes unbearable >.<

here's an example... 3v3 game, my teammate had an avatar... yay ! it had 3k hp left and was running (walking) back to base... low and behold a ravener pops out of the tunnel with venom spammed worrior broodes... in no joke 5 seconds the avatar died.

So... having a unit that does huge damage to vehicles and infantry isn't OP? (venom cannons and adrenal glands)

But they should be able to fix these things though

[Skarmory the PG]

Rippers should either:
A: cap slower
B: reinforce slower
C: forfeit their damage reduction while capping
D: die to cap

[The Voltr0n]

die to cap? lol, there are many options for relic to consider, atm they don't take enough damage from weapons teams and they cost like nothing to reinforce, i saw one retreat the other day on 40 hp... in amoungst a heck load of fire and it still made it out, when in retreat their bonus seems to be a little high...

[Shuma]

I say that they should cost 10 req to reinforce but be instantaneous and make them take damage in melee, i mean, it's one thing that they don't take much damage from ranged damage since they're small, but what? A tactical marine can't just kick them to death?

[Skarmory the PG]

10 req = 140 for a full squad. That's almost as much as the whole squad. Two hormagaunts or three rippers? I know what I'd want.

[Shuma]

So it solves the Problem, rippers are meant to tie up units, protect the bigger units, not go around capping the map like crazy being inmune to everything and reinforcing INSTANATANEOUSLY AND FOR FREE.

Another fix is to simply remove their caping ability but that might be too extreme.

[hellic]

Assumption: Warriors are nerfed so Nids rely more on synapse and Gaunts.

Given the above, Rippers need to be nerfed...and buffed. Why do I say this? Because if you only nerf them (can't cap, costly reinforcement, etc.) then people won't buy them at all. All Nid commanders can counter suppression, so another squad of HG is just better.

Currently, most Nids only use Rippers to run around the map capping points. They usually don't use them in conjunction with their army to tie up units because Rippers are so much more effective at capping and decapping. The solution to this problem? Give synapsed Rippers an ability to reduce the damage Gaunts take by, say, 10%. To prevent stacking, each additional Ripper gives diminished marginal utility. That is, the second Ripper would only add a 7 or 8% damage reduction, and the third only a 5% one.

This way, Rippers can be used effectively in conjunction with synapse and Gaunts and Tyranids have an incentive to use them.

To balance out this buff, remove Rippers' damage resistance and fix their bugged HP regen. Also, make them super-vulnerable when decapping/capping (i.e. an increase of 30-50% damage taken while capping). Their free reinforcement (and maybe auto-reinforce) stay.

With these changes, Rippers have more utility in a [balanced, with less Warrior spam] Tyranid army. They won't be super-effective at capping (yet can still manage if needed) but they will be better at supporting the army as a whole and can actually die from ranged fire.

[Shuma]

The only way Warriors should be nerfed is increase in cost. They were fine before the Req change. They should cost at least 450 req.

And what you propose for Rippers is a big change and i bet Relic whont do it. Just remove the free inmune/reinforce, that should fix them. And make them vulnerable in melee, it makes sense that they take less damage from ranged weapon but melee?

[hellic]

Warrior are problematic because of their jumping knockdowns and anti-everything upgrades. And did you read my post? If you only nerf Rippers, no one would use them. A squad of Hormagaunts would be so much better.

[Shuma]

Frankly i don't know why people choose rippers over Hormas aniway. And removing the free reinforce and making them vulnerable in melee would make them balanced. They can still cap, they can still tie up units, they can still be inmune to supression. The only diference is that now they would stay longer out of the battlefield and would finnaly die.

[hellic]

Have you considered why players use Rippers to cap and decap? Because even if you lose 13 of the 14 members in the process but succeed in decapping, you can hit the retreat button and reinforce for free while the enemy has just lost a point that would have given them up to 30 req/min. So, why would ANYONE buy units that do negligible damage, have no durability, and can't decap a point without losing members/req? What part of cost-effectiveness do you not understand?

P.S. Hormagaunts can do everything you mentioned x10 better and all Tyranid heroes can easily counter suppression, negating the usefulness of synapsed Rippers.

[Shuma]

Have you considered why players use Rippers to cap and decap? Because even if you lose 13 of the 14 members in the process but succeed in decapping, you can hit the retreat button and reinforce for free while the enemy has just lost a point that would have given them up to 30 req/min.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH RIPPERS

And i only said that you should be able to hit them in Melee, i never said anything about durability.

[hellic]

We agree on the problem, but what you're suggesting is such a drastic measure that Rippers are simply not viable units anymore. Tyranid players would simply choose Hormagaunts over Rippers every time.

I don't know why you're complaining about melee vs. Rippers, seeing melee-specialists (e.g. Sluggas) are good counters against them. The problem is how little damage ranged units deal against Rippers (e.g. Guardians or Shootas).

[Shuma]

If memory serves right even melee infantry whont kill rippers before they retreat, but assuming that's true, then surely making them not reinforce instantaneously and for free should fix the problem.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

How would requiring reinforce cost on Rippers do anything? Two of three Tyranid commanders can reinforce gaunts for free.

[The Voltr0n]

exactly... its a very sticky situation... because you do not want to make rippers useless to players, relic wants every unit to have a use and to be purchased, i myself do not know how to fix them, possibly just increasing the damage they take, and leaving their cost/reinforcing alone.

[hellic]

exactly... its a very sticky situation... because you do not want to make rippers useless to players, relic wants every unit to have a use and to be purchased, i myself do not know how to fix them, possibly just increasing the damage they take, and leaving their cost/reinforcing alone.I think I do (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=3435883&postcount=61) :X

[Rhedd]

Warrior are problematic because of their jumping knockdowns and anti-everything upgrades.Funny how this exact problem got the poor Banshees nerfed into utter oblivion.

[hellic]

Yeah, but now Fortune Shees can still destroy 2 or 3 squads of Warriors. D=

[Shuma]

Knockdown is not their problem and it wasn't the Banshee problem either. The problem with the Banshees was that they killed retreatign units, that was fixed yet they got nerfed in the same patch.

And Hellic, you think wrong, it IS a viable fix for rippers but i bet 100 e-bucks that Relic whont do it that way.

[hellic]

Why do you think they killed retreating units? Because they could knock them down during the retreat and deal extra damage...

You still haven't told me one thing, after your "fix", that Rippers + hero could do that HG + hero couldn't do better.

[Shuma]

I don't even use rippers. Also the point is that knockback when retreating was taken out, hence Banshee's shouldnt have lost their knockback.

[The Voltr0n]

Banshess are the single most useless unit in DOW2 now. Because of the fact they die so easy, running into 2 tac squads 2 banshee squads will most likely die before engaging...

Its sad because before being nurfed they served their purpose, they needed a little nurfing, but to this, its just sad...

Same as warp spiders in that respect, their glitter cannons couldn't scratch a scout let alone stand up to heavier infantry.

[Rhedd]

I didn't mean to change the subject. We Eldar players have to be sure and take our medication regularly so we don't fall into states of uncontrollable bitterness, you know. :P

[Ap0k]

Moving to balance discussions, since that's apparently what this thread is discussing.

Balance about rippers that is. Kindly remain on topic.

[Bronyaur]

reinforcing INSTANATANEOUSLY

Rippers do NOT reinforce INSTANATANEOUSLY[sic], not since March 10.

[Wafflecopter]

Heres an idea.

Make every single unit one hit rippers in melee (Except other rippers)?

I mean, a GUARDIAN could probably kill one by stepping on it.

[AlienHack]

OK , i started the post so let me put my opinion in again.

Fist of all i played several games against Tyrs from the creation of this post. The results? I CAN NEVER WIN A TYR PLAYER... (except if he is level1.. :-S )
A good nyd player from the start of the game quickly controls all the map. Even in games that i managed to initially control the map (all 3 control points included) , when the warriors came out it was like game over..

Why is that? WELL BECAUSE usually the main attacking force of the nyd player is 1-2 warrior squads, his hive tyrant AND 1-2 rippers!!! The tactic is simple! rippers come first, the first ripper meele my Heavy bolters (which i successfully use against all other races to slow them down) AND the second ripper meelles either my commander or my Assault marines or tac marines not letting them move correctly and attack the warriors face to face.

SO the outcome is that in several occasions i have like 1 Force commander 1 heavybolter 1 assault marine and 1 tac going against 2 rippers 1 tyrant and 1 or 2 warriors (sometimes its 1 warrior and 1 homogaunt)

so we have like 4 Space marine units WHO ARE COSTLY AND SUPOSEDLY POWERFULL going against 4-5 Tyranid units who are CHEAP and SUPOSEDLY very weak (tyrs are counting on numbers)

AND THE OUTCOME?? always the same, my Heavy bolters are tied, my mellee units are tied (even if i manually click to attack the warriors the rippers are so many and the broken path finding make my unit move around himself doing nothing..)

I always lose such fights either everybody dies (when retreating the melee damage i take from tyrs is HUGE put in the rippers that block my units' exit-retreat) or if i am lucky and retreat at 70% health some units may survive but the retreat gives enough time to the tyr player to cap all the rest of the map..

SO HOW TO FIX IT?

many ways in my opinion , making rippers unable to cap could help BUT in battle they still will survive long enough to make most of my units unable to move properly attack..

what about leaving rippers as they are BUT make them accept Area of effect DAMAGE from melle!! Think about it, they are so small and many that when a melle unit atttack one of them he probably will hit 1-2 more as they are all over the place, swinging a sword would probably hit 2-3 of them, so area damage..

This way they can still tie up units BUT for shorter time so that my melee units can finally kill them at some time and move on to the warriors! The way they are now even an assault squad going against a ripper 1on1 needs like 20 secs to kill the whole squad..

what do you think?

[Goobers]

I would like to see Rippers DR reduced to 50%, their cost reduced to 200req, and retreat removed.


Dunno why, just sounds like a good idea.

[AlienHack]

their damage is not the prob Goobers.. they dont do much damage but THEY TIE UP UNITS FOREVER!!!

[Goobers]

DR = Damage Reduction.

Obviously I play to many RPG's.

[AlienHack]

haha... :-D