View Full Version : Ork vs Eldar
26th Mar 09, 10:34 AM
Ok I been doing 1 vs 1 now for a few games and I been LOSING hard against eldar. Basicly I pwn eldar in tier 1 and even semi in tier 2. But when the game get's into tier 3 I'm having huge problems. I lost when the eldar got his avatar out for the first time. Before that I had almost whole map control and had caped all 3 of the victory points. Now I must be doing something wrong but I have 2xslugga 2xstikkbomba 1xnob squad 1xdeff dread 2x rokkit
Now against the avatar he just pushed with warlock and some guardiens. STILL I GOT OWNED.
Problem was the gravitation thingy that sucks in your infatery. That in combination with avatar and i was toast. HOW do i counter it even if i spread out my AV the freaking AV dies so fast. And the guardians and plats can push without getting pinned. I seriously think Avatar needs some work. IF its grouped with other forces its almost unstoppable.
Next game same thing I dominate the map until i hit tier 3. The eldar was down to 130ish and I had 500! I even had most of his power... and he had almost no units out.
Still he managed to turn it around with the gravitation thingy + storm. And the use of Avatar. This time I got one of his avatars down. But It cost me alot of map control and he walked it right up to my base poping anotehr gravhole killing 6! of my squads... I started to weep... Honestly 1 avatar and 2 guardians + warlock killed my whole army...
PLZ tell me how to counter it. :Skull: :noway:
26th Mar 09, 2:20 PM
Assuming the gravity thing is the d cannon singularity you need to scout ahead and hunt down the d cannon platform(s). The singularity takes a while to fire but it will instagib your entire army if you arnt careful. Vs eldar I try and have a set of kommandos platform hunting, d cannons have a long range so they will probably be hiding behind his main force somewhere.
26th Mar 09, 4:20 PM
I think you got unlucky or just weren't paying enough attention. With that much map control I would be camping at their base watching everything they do. A nid player did this to me with the RA and it sucked arse ;_;
26th Mar 09, 6:10 PM
If you had almost everything, how did he have enough to get an avatar then?
Yes i will admit the avatar can be a bitch to kill, but im guessing the player wasnt the pro'est out there (due to him getting owned this bad for most of the game). Maybe you could have distracted the avatar long enough to get all the VP timers down.
Either that or just destroy all his backup units, and then surroiund it and pummell it with everything you have. Worst comes to worse, it wont be able to move.
26th Mar 09, 6:23 PM
He still had 2 req points and one of his energy, I bet he was saving up. Since he let me have so much control And I hardly faced any opposition taking out whole left side. That said since he didn't have any units his req rate goes up. And now that I know the singularity is done by the cannons I wil ldef try to kill it ASAP.
Still I wonder what I do wrong since I think im decent aat orks and do well in 3vs3. Like I said I often get atleast one commander kill before tier3 hits. But ones it hits I struggle. I'm not sure but the Singularity thing is crazy It wipes a ork army out almost insta gibs it. Only thing that survived was a nob squad and a slugga nob... 7 squads... insta dead... :/
27th Mar 09, 2:08 AM
Nob leaders will reduce the number of squads you lose outright as they will generally survive the singularity.
27th Mar 09, 11:50 AM
If you have them backed up like that finish the job. Push forward and take those other 2 req points and his power. Don't just be happy with what you have, you want to OWN the map outright.
27th Mar 09, 2:10 PM
You are doing something seriously wrong in 1v1 if you have map control and he has the resources for an avatar.
27th Mar 09, 3:51 PM
If you are t3 and you're dominating the map, you should have warboss + 2 squads of Nobs + a squad of sluggas for map control + 1-2 shootas (or tankbustas if he has tank platrforms)
Just charge your nobs / warboss in , click 'ard boys to whoever seems to be taking most dmg, and use yer choppas to the other -> dead avatar or cause some serious dmg. I wouldn't advice getting tanks vs eldar because falcon > tanks
28th Mar 09, 7:19 AM
I do not play warboss I play Kommando nob
Also thats kinda besides the point isn't it. A singularity can rape a ork army just one shot of it. he can take out 2000req ina aheart beat. even if I would invest in Nob he still would have me crippled finaicaly and could counter.
The D cannon singularity need to do less dmg to a army especially a ork army that must be grouped to get bonus of waaagh etc. It's sick how much dmg it can do. It's a mini storm for christ sake and does not cost anything for what dmg it deals.
28th Mar 09, 7:37 AM
With Kommando Nob can't you stealth and locate those pesky D-cannons before you move your army in?
28th Mar 09, 10:55 AM
A singularity from a d-cannon wont even kill a single nob from a nob squad. It will knock off a few thousand hits, but it wont even kill 1.
28th Mar 09, 12:11 PM
I really don't know how you afford 2 nob squads, even while dominating the map. Since the patch, I hardly ever afford 1.
If you look at scores at the end of the game, it would seem orks are currently REALLY getting the shaft upkeep wise. And it's a huge pain in the ass. If i happen to lose my commander, it's a real pain buying him back, as moving up in tiers and getting upgrades while reinforcing units is already pretty damn costly.
Orks tend to lose units at each skirmish. That's just the way they work. But I often see myself having collected between 500 and 1200 less req than my teammates. Now maybe it's coming from high pop caps during the entire game, but it's always the orks getting the lowest income for some reason.
But I digress. The point is, and I'm probably beating a dead horse, that T3 units are very, VERY hard to afford. The looted tank is okay, if you got enough power nodes. But upgraded nobz? 2 of them? yikes.
Another problem imo is the cost of nob leaders. When you hit T3, getting 3 of those for your 2 sluggas and shoota squads is quite a pain, given the need for commander upgrades, probable anti vehicle and the occasional deff dread or trukk.
75req 25power is too much.
Hopefully upkeep will be fixed.
I've probably gone off topic on a rant here, my apologies.
28th Mar 09, 6:57 PM
Granted that was only 1 match, I did field 2 nob squads and won. Took their avatar right out. As with commando nob, good luck, you will need it. I don't think i'd play orks without 'ard boys and warboss with power klaw.
I usually get 2 sluggas 1 shoota to start with, then tank (if he doesn't have falcon) or nob. Usually over by t3 though, and if he has d-cannon you can just flank it with a slugga squad.
Well the Kommie Nob and the Warboss have totally different styles of play imo.
I used to play the Warboss in beta, with very moderate success. Had problems with suppression troops mostly.
Then I used the Kommie for quite a while. His disruption is great, and he can do alot of damage if microed well.
Lately I'm on the Warboss again, and can't use the Kommie if my life depended on it. Don't know why, just doesn't seem to work anymore.
Warboss is really addictive for a number of things. He's not that amazing in melee in the beggining, but his upgrades have such benefits for his troops. Trophy rack, boss pole before that...Cybork Implants I find quite to my liking aswell. And of course, 'ard boyz, use yer choppas, etc.
The Kommie nob doesn't really help your army all that much. Imo, he'd be absolutely great if the orks actually played "orky". But atm, every troops is so fragile, and requires so much micro, I just find myself overwhelmed with the kommando nob. Let alone spawning a kommando squad beside him, I'd get swamped.
Great abilities, but really, really micro heavy, for a race that is already maybe a bit too micro heavy, given its fluff.
29th Mar 09, 7:54 AM
Gyan: I agree wit heverything you said. The upkeep on your units is to much. Especially since you loose units in every encounter. But the main problem is how devestating any AoE is against orks.
And to upgrade nobs on every unit are you serious. I'm floating low req as it is. when I hit tier 3 I try to get nob out but dude the d cannon is OP!!!! it can shoot from like 2 screens away. And gib whole armys... and wiiipppdeee do it only kicks a few thousand hp off yournob squad... yea so his guardians can kill em... *clap clap*
29th Mar 09, 1:15 PM
Not to mention upgrading Sluggas and Shootas with Nob Leaders adds pop cap, which also raises
Nob leaders simple aren't worth it at 25 energy if my energy income drops so quickly due to upkeep bugs.
The high cost, combined with the Nob leaders not providing much in the way the survivability upgrade (besides adding HP to the squad so that it takes slightly longer to reach the half-way point before troops start dying).
It's gotten to the point where I'm just going to stop playing Orks until Relic fixes all the bugs, and rebalances them.
29th Mar 09, 5:39 PM
The thing with Eldar is they are a very power hungry race. Luckily orks have the best power harassing unit in the game (stikbommas).
The trick vs Eldar is to harass their power early and never let up. Orks t1 should be able to dominate Eldar t1 and you basically want to be pressuring his power with stikbommas and 'nading gens (then retreating if necessary) as much as possible. If you can restrict his power the fight should never even go to t3 and if it does your army should be far superior.
Anyway for dcannon specifically I don't tend to use the kommando but stealth and cc the d-cannon as you move your army in should take it out of the equation. Most eldar players don't tend to build rangers so detection shouldn't be an issue. You can also flank it really they aren't that hard to counter.
1st Apr 09, 2:29 PM
D-cannon is hax, good Eldar will have rangers to help cover it and possibly even stealth it. Your best bet as they said is scouting out with kommandos or kommando nob. That thing is simply the bane of orky life.
13th Apr 09, 11:43 AM
okay lets say the game forces you to play that ever so lovely map capital spire...and lets say you are playing against a team of 3 eldar and all your teammates are noobs complaining that they are up against pros when they are simple noobs. now lets say the eldar are sticking plats everywhere and using their warlock to pitch your units directly into crossfires which equals instant k.o's all around....and lets say you tried everythin from stikkbombas to stormboyz and you couldnt dislodge their positions because plats evidently dont have a take down time and can just sprint away from orks...with jet packs....okay to hell with the "lets say" this just happened to me in a game and i was the kommando nob...my teammates were pretty much either afk or just sittin their and i decided to take on the eldar horde (ironic i know) and found myself in a very nicely done crossfire. stikkbombs were launched and the plats graceful legged it and lost nothing. stormboyz jumped them and they gracefully legged it and thanks to the fact plats dont seem to have to takedown their massive gun they outran the stormboyz....so what do i do cause 2 eldar players were pretty much setting up crossfires using spires oh so lovable staircases and cramped spaces....the other eldar player was just capping and using his hero to kill stuff.
13th Apr 09, 12:30 PM
Well ive got a tendancy to immediately switch to an alternative race as soon as I see spire. As for constructive suggestions...
Clever positioning a teleporting of mekboy can cause havoc with mines + supression + flanking (get him on a flank some distance away then tele in so he is instantly set up facing the right way).
Kommando stun grenades are handy for dealing with plats, as are burna bombs.
Stormboyz can work especially if you have already done one of the above.
Dont forget call the boys exists, autoreinforcing boys take a long time to go down.
13th Apr 09, 12:43 PM
the thing is the plats were evacing right quick. it was very...unusual...i expected the nades to kill them but the plats were not unloading...do they have a unload time?
13th Apr 09, 11:11 PM
They should have unload times, pretty sizable unload times as well, but still enough to dodge a grenade of they're on the ball (as it should be).
Ork grenade throws really telegraph their intentions.
On the other hand, it might be a new Relic Bug that relic is known for.
14th Apr 09, 12:43 PM
regardless i do give that eldar player credit for his clever deployment...shame i lost 2 game to it...i hate capital spire (which was the map for both games)
16th Apr 09, 2:39 PM
Ah, well in that case it wasn't really clever deployment. Capital spire is a horrid map that basically favors anyone with suppression weapons. It's easy to get "Creative" with placement when there's really no way to go around them.
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