[1.1.3] Stikkbombaz are overpowered vs gens

[Vintage]

Title says it all really. In a 1v1 game it is impossible to protect your gens from stikbombaz and still remain competitive with capping the field. If you just leave a dev squad or a shuriken platform he will either nade your setup team, or nade a gen, back off real quick, nade another gen, back off real quick, and then all your gens are dead. You cannot afford to leave a small army defending your gens, your just going to get outcapped. These guys need a nerf vs gens.

I suggest a nerf to their damage against gens so it takes two volleys to kill a generator, allowing time to actual get units over to fight them off. Remember, one unit guarding your generators at all times will not deter stikbombaz. They will simply kite your unit whilst throwing grenades when their cooldown is over.

[LandShark]

then all orks need a melee buff against them.

[Sebi]

I wouldn't start talking about nerfing orks until they get some loving from the buff stick.

[Vintage]

It really isn't going to hurt Orks at all. It is just going to remove an imbalance. I am not suggesting nerfing stikbombaz in any way other then their nade damage against generators.

[Coffee]

What Sebi means is that Orks already have it way too tough with a big list of other imbalances at their disadvantage that removing any 'dirty tricks from the street' would make it too difficult to win at all. I assume he means you're better of fixing the other imbalances first/at same time so Orks stand a chance.

[LandShark]

stickbombas are the only decently quick way to destroy gens tier 1.

all the other races can do it quicker overall. waiting for the recharge for grenades and a dev or shruk squad will have killed 2 in that time.

so buff all the ork melee damage against buildings if you want to nerf grenade damage against them.

[Frigidair44]

Nope. Nuh-uh.

Landshark is right, and there has been other posts about it. Every race does it faster and cheaper then the Orks besides maybe the nids. But their tier 1 warriors take them down quickly by synapsing gaunts.

An Stikkbomma squad will take more then a full minute to take down a gen farm (just from the 20 second cool down alone), not including the wind up and throw time... or compensating for missed throws. If you cannot respond to them fast enough, you aren't doing it right.

[Ceorl]

As an ork player, I'm kinda torn here. On one hand, I dislike the gen farm bombing most Ork players do. It's enough of a common abuse tactic that I expect any Ork player to use it the same way I expect an Eldar to mass Guardians or a Nid player to overuse rippers. On the other hand, as Sebi pointed out, Orks are darn difficult to play right now...

I think I'm gonna have to go with Sebi and adopt a wait and see approach here. If the upcoming patch helps address balance issues (who knows maybe it will) then we can look into nerfing stickbombz.

[Vintage]

Landshark is right, and there has been other posts about it. Every race does it faster and cheaper then the Orks besides maybe the nids. But their tier 1 warriors take them down quickly by synapsing gaunts.

Actually that is wrong. Other races can destroy gens quicker yes, but only if your opponent is either a newb or makes a huge mistake. Good players will make sure you can't rush up to a gen with a Dev squad or a Shuri plat. How can you make sure a stikbomba doesn't run up and nade your gens? Like I said, leaving a single unit guarding your gens won't work since they will just kite and throw nades. Leaving more then a single unit means you lost your capping power and hence lost the game.

[Troubleshooter]

Gen killing spell effects should be nerfed across the board IMO. Tier 1 is tough enough without having to deal with grenade spamming units too.

However, I've been thinking about it and I would be ok with the whole idea if the costs related to grenades were increased to keep the "spam" down.


so buff all the ork melee damage against buildings if you want to nerf grenade damage against them.Negative, but close. Not every unit needs to have an AB role. Stickbombas are still the logical choice for gen-sapping, so buff their AB damage and nerf their nade damage so that a full volley will take down a single GEN, while a 2 nade volley will reduce it to 10% health. This way the ork is rewarded for having full squads going after gens (and exposing them to fire) but still required to CC the gens to counter the whole farm at once.

I'd even be ok with shootas having some buffs to AB damage to compensate, just so long as what ever is killing my gens has to stand around for a bit and risk getting ambushed/nuked.

[Frigidair44]

I'd even be ok with shootas having some buffs to AB damage to compensate, just so long as what ever is killing my gens has to stand around for a bit and risk getting ambushed/nuked.

They do have to stay there. Stikkbommas have to stay there a while... LONGER then every other race to destroy a gen farm. A minute on the battlefield is a long time to dedicate to one task... especially since in higher end game you have to micro the hell out of stikkbommas to keep them from dying for the eventual reinforcements that will show up. AND THEY DO show up.

I can't tell you the number of times I have had to dance around melee or ranged troops that come for blood because I took down one gen. And most of the time... one stikkbomma dies. And I have to retreat... because I can't do any more damage.

If you take away the stikkbommas ability to one shot gens, their use goes down the tube. The only thing they will be fielded for is building clearing... and sluggas with flamers, deff dreadz, lootas, tanks, all do this job equally well.

They might as well be another stormboy squad if you nerf their grenades again.

[Vintage]

But they don't have to stand there... They can simply throw 1 volley kill a gen, leave until their cool down recharges, and then go back and do the same thing over again. It does not even matter if you have a unit standing by to guard your gens at all times. I don't know why I have had to repeat this three times now, but I will keep repeating it every time someone says this. If your opponent sends multiple units to force your stikkbommas to retreat then congrats, you just tied up multiple units with a single unit, you took few losses if any before you retreated, and you took out a gen or 2 and will be back soon to do the cycle again.

Other races have to actually stand there to destroy the enemy generators, and it can be guarded against since they have to get very close to the gens and then set up their weapon before they begin firing. It is highly possible to defend against this if you have a unit guarding your gens, or you just pay attention. When you see a slow moving setup team marching to your gens you walk over and attack them before they setup.


If you take away the stikkbommas ability to one shot gens, their use goes down the tube. The only thing they will be fielded for is building clearing... and sluggas with flamers, deff dreadz, lootas, tanks, all do this job equally well.

What? Stikkbommas are very good in melee. They do special attacks very frequently so are good for tying up and spamming knockdown on enemy commanders. They also happen to have grenades, which happen to do lots of damage when they explode. You are saying the sole purpose of stickbommas is to destroy gens, which is simply not true.

[LandShark]

vintage, you are talking about orks here.

how do orks protect thier gens? if the orks are harassing your gens, why arent you harassing thiers? you can put a weapons team up and set up a trap when the orks show up to protect them.

2 way street. orks have a tougher time defending thiers than other races, and should then also be able to raid better than other races since they cant defend as well.

if you set up your defender properly he cant get into range to toss grenades.

A B C

if A is your weapons team, b is your gens, and c is the stickbommas then you are doing it wrong. you know this.

you want A to be the gens and B to be your weapons team. now he has to throw them at your weapons team. weapons teams are cheaper than stickbommas.


What? Stikkbommas are very good in melee. They do special attacks very frequently so are good for tying up and spamming knockdown on enemy commanders. They also happen to have grenades, which happen to do lots of damage when they explode. You are saying the sole purpose of stickbommas is to destroy gens, which is simply not true.

stickbommas are also extremely easy to single out and focus fire down also.

[Vintage]

Defending their gens isn't really a problem. Excluding tyranids, all they have to worry about really is a Dev or Shuri plat somehow getting point blank range to their generators which usually happen to be extremely close to the ork players base. As an Ork your going to generally have a bunch of sluggas about. Orks have very good capping power and sluggas are very effective in t1. If your fighting SM then your easily going to outcap them. Sending a single dev by itself to harass your gens isn't going to work if your paying attention, so they are going to have to back it up with their hero or some tacs. Multiple units all trying to kill your gens. All you have to do is send 1 to kill theirs, while a large chunk of their tiny t1 army is harassing yours. Leaving your army free to either cap the map or prevent them from killing your gens.

If your fighting eldar and your gens are being harassed, chances are they have either 2 GUs and 1 Shuri or 3 GUs. If it is 2GU 1 Shuri, again a single shuriken platform should never destroy your gens if your paying attention. He will have to send the Shuri platform with the very minimum his hero backing it up, which usually isn't enough to stop you from tying up the shuri plat until reinforcements get there. If your fighting 3 GU well he need atleast 2 of his Guardians to be attacking your generators with nades, and can only kill 1 and then has to wait for a very long time until the cooldown for plasma nades recharges. This also leaves only 1 GU and his Hero to cap the map or battle your forces or protect his own gens from your single stikkbomma unit destroying his gens.

Summing up what I just said with this post, Orks have to defend their gens just like the other races do, the only difference is, it is far easier for orks to harass and destroy other races gens, then it is for other races to destroy Ork gens. Orks lose almost no capping power when they harass gens, while other races have to dedicate more then just a single unit to doing it.

[Frigidair44]

What? Stikkbommas are very good in melee. They do special attacks very frequently so are good for tying up and spamming knockdown on enemy commanders. They also happen to have grenades, which happen to do lots of damage when they explode. You are saying the sole purpose of stickbommas is to destroy gens, which is simply not true.

I would never field a stickkbomma squad for melee. Whenever they go into melee and get stuck in with the boyz they get focused fired upon by whoever I'm attacking. Yes they are good at melee... they can beat a slugga squad more than half the time... and will wreck Guardians. But they will fall to gaunts due to numbers alone. And warriors will kill them on the retreat. Its gotten to the point where I rarely field them against nids (it may change when the patch is dropped however).

And to tell the truth... they don't last that long past tier 2. I'm not sending them to kill sqauds so they really don't gain levels much. And if they are alive... my opponent has already gotten the idea that I'm gonna keep killing their gens. If they haven't then I already got the game in the bag.

Yes are good at gen and econ harassment. But they are troops designed for a specific job... and whenever somebody see them they know what they are about. If you are loosing your gens to stikkbommas... then you let them sit at the site for over a minute and trashed it. And that is bad gameplay.


Summing up what I just said with this post, Orks have to defend their gens just like the other races do, the only difference is, it is far easier for orks to harass and destroy other races gens, then it is for other races to destroy Ork gens. Orks lose almost no capping power when they harass gens, while other races have to dedicate more then just a single unit to doing it.

Thats an advantage the Orkz have. But in truth... A single Slugga squad really can't kill anything with out a nob. It takes two squads really to finish another squad off in a fight... and they will take casualties. You give up squad lasting power for tons of numbers.

Their weakness is in vehicles... they are no where as useful as the other races vehicles.

[Vintage]

Nobody fields them for melee, but they are capable of it. I am just stating that they have other uses besides blowing up gens. Their grenades are highly lethal against units, and they are capable of going into melee.


then you let them sit at the site for over a minute and trashed it. And that is bad gameplay.

But they don't have to stand there... They can simply throw 1 volley kill a gen, leave until their cool down recharges, and then go back and do the same thing over again. It does not even matter if you have a unit standing by to guard your gens at all times. I don't know why I have had to repeat this four times now, but I will keep repeating it every time someone says this.

[Frigidair44]

They can simply throw 1 volley kill a gen, leave until their cool down recharges, and then go back and do the same thing over again. It does not even matter if you have a unit standing by to guard your gens at all times. I don't know why I have had to repeat this four times now, but I will keep repeating it every time someone says this.

Players that beat me don't let my bommas do that. They chase them and kill them. Be it Eldar, SM, Orkz, or nids.

[Saias]

/me walks over to gen, throws grenade then presses X

how is that easy to counter frigid?

[LandShark]

*landshark walks over and ties up your units and kills them*

countered.

[Saias]

so you're going to keep a unit there, which can not only beat stikkbommas in melee but can magically catch grenades?

I'm genuinly interested in hearing which unit you use for eldar to counter stikkbommas grenading generators.

[LandShark]

guardian with thier own grenades. stickbommas cannot hurt a microed guardian squad. but stickbommas will take fire from them in an attempt to get close enough and if they continue they will have to walk into a grenade, which will then suppress them and then you can really let the guardians lay the hammer down.

[Frigidair44]

guardian with thier own grenades. stickbommas cannot hurt a microed guardian squad. but stickbommas will take fire from them in an attempt to get close enough and if they continue they will have to walk into a grenade, which will then suppress them and then you can really let the guardians lay the hammer down.

What he said. Or you can make a stikkbomma pay for getting close Shruk platform. In a good game against the eldar... their mobility pretty much determines how close my stikbommas get to the gens in the first place... or if I'm able to take one down.

In a good game... Gens will go down. Its the way it is. And if an Eldar player has kept me busy long enough and I don't get to a gen fast enough... falcons are going to hit the field and really lay some punishment down on me.

[Sin Fang Bous]

Stikks are ridiculously fragile. If they're destroying gen farms over and over again, the other player is doing something very wrong.

[Saias]

Apparently stikkbommas run straight into plasma grenades somehow?
Guardian throws grenade, you dodge, throw grenade then retreat - profit.

[hellic]

Before any of you say "OMG DODGE THE BOMMAS' NADES THEN", might I remind you that gens can't move?

As for a Shuriken guardian a gen farm, you can either walk around and flank or, if you're caught too far in to fall back, nade the plat and get free kills.

[LandShark]

Apparently stikkbommas run straight into plasma grenades somehow?
Guardian throws grenade, you dodge, throw grenade then retreat - profit.

man, some people just dont get it. a guardian can harass a stickbomma indefinately. killing them off. the cant kill guardians. so they have 2 options, retreat so they dont lose bommas, or continue and attempt to blow up a gen. if they continue toward the gens and let the guardians shoot them, guardians can throw a grenade and force stickbommas to dodge backward or take the damage, and continue to get shot.

if the guardians kill off 1 stickbomba before they get there, the stickbommas will be unable to destroy a gen.

[Saias]

what has killing guardians got to do with stikkbommas on gens?
Guardians will never kill stikkbommas with shooting before they throw their grenades, and you'll never hit a decent player with a grenade out in the open, the second he throws the grenades you can freely retreat, reducing all ranged and grenade damage by 80%.

[LandShark]

because if you are defending your gens, you put the guardian in a position to intercept before they can throw grenades.

man tactics are apparently a lost artform.

[Saias]

That's nothing but "i will do this because blah blah i can!" though isn't it?

you're going to put them into a position to "intercept"? you cannot shoot them down before they get in range, you cannot grenade a moving target if he's any good and you cannot melee them. how exactly are you going to cause enough damage with 1 guardian squad to kill a stikkbomma squad before he gets into range to throw?

/insert random passive-aggressive insult

[LandShark]

already been through this saias, let me cut and paste it again so you can understand.


guardian with thier own grenades. stickbommas cannot hurt a microed guardian squad. but stickbommas will take fire from them in an attempt to get close enough and if they continue they will have to walk into a grenade, which will then suppress them and then you can really let the guardians lay the hammer down.


man, some people just dont get it. a guardian can harass a stickbomma indefinately. killing them off. the cant kill guardians. so they have 2 options, retreat so they dont lose bommas, or continue and attempt to blow up a gen. if they continue toward the gens and let the guardians shoot them, guardians can throw a grenade and force stickbommas to dodge backward or take the damage, and continue to get shot.

all it takes is for guardians to kill 1 stickbomma before they get thier nades off and they cannot kill a gen. 1 thats it.

[cyborgZero]

I think it's fine, I am an ork player, and I know that the ork's only advantage is to keep his opponent in tier 1 as much as possible and only stickbommaz can help with that. They can be easily killed, and if you are playing against orks, be strategic and expect them, try to have units ahead in the battlefield to see them comming.

Stickbommaz use Waaagh to throw grenades, and Waaagh early in the game is precious to any ork player due to the constant need of waagh to sluggas in order to compete. Other races use unit energy for grenades = free/a lot more economically viable.

Last point, stickbommaz are easy to focus fire / kill... so I know you haven't played enough to understand that this is essential for orks, and I assume you were rocked by losing your gens to stickbommaz, but rather than calling for nerf, try developing a strategy to counter it.

[Vintage]

Last point, stickbommaz are easy to focus fire / kill... so I know you haven't played enough to understand that this is essential for orks, and I assume you were rocked by losing your gens to stickbommaz, but rather than calling for nerf, try developing a strategy to counter it.

Easy to focus fire and kill implies that you have more then 1 unit guarding your gens, which means you just lost the capping battle. BTW I have played hundreds of games, so I have played enough to understand what is essential. Your assumption is wrong.

[Saias]

Landshark, you're still assuming that you can kill a stikkbomma before they throw their grenades however. No decent ork player is going to idiotically run into grenades, so why bother adding that to the equation?.

[LandShark]

time spent dodging a grenade is more time spent getting shot.

[Vintage]

LandShark do you play 1v1s? I ask because I notice your team game stats are extremely good, but your only 2-0 in 1v1s. It's primarily a 1v1 issue, since in team matches it is a lot harder to ninja up to the opposing sides gens, and it is much easier to guard your gens in team games.

[Goobers]

This is a non-issue.

Shruiken Plats, HB Devs, Turrets, Warrirors and Guardian Grenades all burn down generator farms faster than StikkBommaz, even if they toss their 'imbanades'. Nerf them as well, actually nerf them more because they don't dip into the godpower pool to actually burn down the generator.

A HB Dev Squad does the job faster. They move just as quickly, are setup by the time the throwing animation finishes and are not hampered in performance if a member gets sniped. Oh and they cost less, have more utility on the field and are a right proper pain for orkz to counter if the player has any idea at all.


StikkBommaz are only good for destroying Generators, which they are outdone by tankbustaz as soon as T2 roles around. T2 is overall poor for orkz, T3 is very expensive, so the player aims to capitalize on T1 since that is where the bulk of the races power comes from, but is limiting for the rest of the factions. By harrassing generators they are playing to their strengths. If the Grenades didn't oneshot a generator, I would send them to melee it for a couple of seconds to knock the last bit of heath off, that generator would still die, only take 5 secs longer to do so, and only the first one because they will be meleeing away while their stikkbombz recharge. It doesn't matter how much you nerf them 'cause they will keep burning down those generators, ork meta game practically revolves around you burning down their power, and yet everyone else can do it faster.


StikkBommaz are squishy, 200 health each, kill one and they no longer one shot a generator. If you can't defend your generators, you don't deserve to keep them.


-Edit:
We had another thread about this recently.
Clicky! (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=219635)

[Vintage]

Shruiken Plats, HB Devs, Turrets, Warrirors and Guardian Grenades all burn down generator farms faster than StikkBommaz, even if they toss their 'imbanades'. Nerf them as well, actually nerf them more because they don't dip into the godpower pool to actually burn down the generator.


Read the thread, we already covered why weapon teams are less effective then stikbommas, because they are counterable whereas stikbommas are not.

[Goobers]

So shooting down a single 200HP slow moving infantry unit is NOT counterable? Could have fooled me.

[cyborgZero]

Vintage, all the posts make sense and logically explain why stickbommaz's 3 grenade toss isn't as overpowered as you think.

Just protect your generators, and if he is using them to blow up your generators, then you are just being part of the game. If there is anything you should be complaining about the orks, it should be the way mekboy mines explode. Orks are currently weak and easily countered.

Vintage, all the posts make sense and logically explain why stickbommaz's 3 grenade toss isn't as overpowered as you think.

Just protect your generators, and if he is using them to blow up your generators, then you are just being part of the game. If there is anything you should be complaining about the orks, it should be the way mekboy mines explode. Orks are currently weak and easily countered.

I could easily complain about how terrible the tankbustas or stormboys are, so that is two crap units for one decent grenade ability. Limits the options

[Saias]

Do you have units sitting around generators doing nothing, waiting for stikkbommas to come then?

you'll lose at least 1 generator before you get there to protect it, Goobers, how exactly do you shoot down a stikkbomma before it grenades your generators as eldar? guardians won't work, neither will suppression teams.

If people want to contribute to this thread please don't reply with "lulz i leave suppression teams on every gen farm!", not only is that a lie but it simply doesn't work.

[xgErlend]

Theory craft in action I see...

I think the main point, coming from a lv30TS player, is that the nades are just a TAD to spamable. I dont have a problem with their nades taking out a gen in one shot. Its 3 nades, 2 GU nades do the same thing. Now granted... thats two squads, but still... the amount of nades is less then the Stick's.
I think the problem people have is the entire, throw nade hit x. Rinse repeat. Not only that, but how the ork player doesn't really need to engage you at all to have enough WAAAGGGHHHH to do that repeatedly. That.. IMO is broken. But that is not the purpose of this thread, to talk about the waaaggghh mechanic, so I will leave that there. However... the spamability of stick bombs are a bit much. Saying that you are going to put a setup weapon to guard your gens in Tier1 against an ork is ok, but it seems like some are forgetting that executing said plan means, best case, that you are removing one of your squads from the map-race in order to remove one of his squads from setting you back, power wise. I personally think this is a bad tradeoff, not to mention that well microed... a Heavy team is not an obstacle for stick's. I am with Saias on the entire Heavy Weapon defense topic.

Considering how terrible Ork tier2 is, yeah I said it... TERRIBLE, they need something in order to keep their opponent in Tier1 for a longer time. Ork Tier1 is arguable one of the strongest tier1's in the game. That being said... if one could tone down the spamability... stick's are fine. Leave the damage and everything else the same.

[Goobers]

Saias.

Don't march your army to the other side of the map then complain that you can't defend a point. 24 WAAARGH traded for 100req, that is what Generator Bombing is. If you are actually, somehow capable of killing a single impossibly tough 200hp unit the whole thing suddenly doesn't work.


@ xgErlend
Less ellipsis please.

[Saias]

This has nothing to do with marching my army accross the other side of the map so If you'd like to stop avoiding the question, and explain how exactly you go about defending a gen farm with equal cost then that would be fantastic.

What has waaagh got to do with anything? you generate it for free anyway, 24waaagh is absolutely nothing for killing power gens.

[Troubleshooter]

because if you are defending your gens, you put the guardian in a position to intercept before they can throw grenades.

man tactics are apparently a lost artform. But being obstinate is in full bloom I see.

For the record, GU Grenades are broken for the same reason... free damage on gens with little to no risk for the squad.

As for the inane "I'll do this." "Oh yeah, then I'll do that" back and forth. The issue is that a unit can move to range, hit a button and make a generator disappear with little to no risk. Anyone who has played 1v1 will know that you never have a unit sitting on guard duty near a gen farm... its a great way to lose a game.

The only time I ever see a unit on guard duty in 1v1 or 3v3 is late game covering a VP OR the highly stupid move of putting a suppression unit covering the bottom VP on Green Tooth Jungle. The only slightly similar occurrence would be when I plant a turret to kill a gen-point and it remains after covering that point, but is easily flanked due to placement angles.

Now, the example given would be that a GU squad (or other similarly cheap/ranged unit) would be able to fend off stickbommas with enough regularity as to make the tactic non-viable. If it were actually true, would there be this much heat in the debate about it? I'll grant you that protecting gen-farms from raids, even from nade-chucking units, is not really that hard to do, most of the time. But, I have played against TS 30 Meks who are extremely adept at gaming your counters to the ploy by knowing what and where you will make your counter move and then either mining or shooting you down at range while they pump nades into your gens over and over again. Its so bad that vs. Meks I simply focus on rushing his power from the start and having parity in energy denial. Kommandos are nearly as bad, but less mobile so easier to avoid... but note that if I have to avoid the hero, the bommas get in and do the deed... which is what people are ticked off about. Its far to easy to pump nades into these buildings with even a little advanced planning by the Ork player, where as weapons teams have to get to position, set up, keep CC units off them and maintain good firing arcs. It might seem simple, but its a bit more complicated and risky than nade-units. The pay off is that weapons teams will rip apart a gen farm far more quickly in the end if they do it right. Thats the balance point.

IMO, the design change needed is to force the ork to engage the gen farm for about 4 seconds longer than he has to now... thats all. Probably only three seconds at higher skill levels. And as I said, I'd be willing to buff AB damage on other less-used ork squads to compensate, so long as they have to stand and shoot.

[hellic]

DoW2 is a game won by map control and not by camping your own gen farms. Your army should be all over the map. But all right, you decide map control isn't as important as protecting your power, so you leave a squad to protect your gens.

As LandShark seems to believe, a single Guardian should do. I mean, Guardian nades WTFPWN Stikkbommas, right? And Stikkbombs can't do shit to Guardians because the Eldar player is skilled enough to dodge them, right? You're missing a key assumption of equal skill here. If one player can dodge nades then...the other should be able to do the same. So, grenades aside, can Guardians still beat back Stikkbommas intent on destroying a gen? Not in this game. A full squad of Guardians all focus firing on an individual Stikkbomma (not always the case) will take him down in 5.7 seconds. This is more than enough time to get into range to throw the nades and retreat or rush into melee with the Guardians (and remember, if they try to kite, they can't shoot...and Stikkbommas will catch up. And FoF is an 80% damage reduction).

So Guardians apparently can't guard anything. What about Shuriken plats? Well, if the Ork player is paying attention, he'll pull back his Stikkbommas when the plat first fires and then flank to either nade the plat or a gen. If the Stikkbommas were to charge the plat to throw a nade at it, then the damage Shurikens do at the distance between the max range of the plat and the max range of the nade will take about 9 seconds to kill a Stikkbomma. Plenty of time, even under suppression, to cross the distance and use nades at max range.

By the way, one gen destroyed gives 15 WAAAAGH. So you only lose a net 9 WAAAAGH for genbombing. Take into account the passive recharge/bonus you get, and the WAAAAAGH cost can't be compared to the loss of 100 req and delayed power for your opponent.

What's ridiculous is the 15 second cooldown on nades. Assuming you have some form of defense around your gens and you force the Stikkbommas to retreat after they destroy a gen, by the time they come back 9 WAAAGH will definitely have accumulated and, guess what, there goes another gen. If you don't have anything to chase the Stikkbommas away after they throw, they'll just hang out for 15 seconds (during which 9 WAAAGH will probably also recharge) aaaaaand, there goes another gen.

What's the cooldown on Guardian nades? 40 seconds.

[xgErlend]

wow, my ellipsis was indeed rampant in that post. My bad. My brain was kinda scattered, and it came out in my writing.

The highly effective powerharass that orks are capable of can, and often does, completely cripple your opponent and their chance to advance.
I have been watching some of the top50 TS ork player reviews and they are capable of simply skipping their terribad tier2 thanks to the early game pressure on gens. This allows them to bring the Tier3 pain early way way before their opponent thanks to the gen harass. Then again, playing against an ork you should know that you need to guard your gens. Its really all they have right now.

[Dux]

I agree with the OP. One volley should not take down a generator immediately. Orks already have another good gen killer in Burnas.

[LandShark]

burnas arent all that good, and that is 20 power.

other races other than nids have hwt that can cut them down in no time.

[Dux]

Yeah, but HWTs can only do that if the gen farm is left wide open. Stikkbommas can't be stopped before they drop at least one gen, and that's the problem.

[Saias]

A HWT is far easier to counter than stikkbommas however, really...how many times must that be said?

This seems to be a similar case for the players arguing in favour of mekboy mines, the fact that other portions of the commander/army suck does not make a good balancing decision for keeping overpowered units.

[Troubleshooter]

I'd just like to say again, I don't want to nerf Ork gen-raid abilities, I just want it shifted off nades is all.

[LandShark]

omg, they are far easier. so what, they can also do it faster with support.

[Dux]

LandShark, you are missing the point. Stikkbommas are the only Tier 1 unit in the whole game that can take out at least one generator per attack every single time regardless of whether or not the gen farm is defended. It's as easy as simply pressing a button that destroys your opponent's gen for 20 waaagh; it cannot be stopped.

[LandShark]

all it takes i for you to kill 1 stickbomma. 3 grenades kill, 2 doesnt.

you talk about how you cant leave 1 squad behind to defend. why not if they are sending 1 that costs more to attack them. equals out doesnt it.

dev squad + focus fire will kill a stickbomba before they can toss all 3, 1 guardian squad +grenades can kill the stickbombas before they toss all 3.

seriously go test this out with some friends.

[TheRussianFunk]

That's really only viable if you see them coming, it's more likely that they've come up to your gens under cover of the fog, and you only see that they're there once you notice that crater where your gen was.

[LandShark]

That's really only viable if you see them coming, it's more likely that they've come up to your gens under cover of the fog, and you only see that they're there once you notice that crater where your gen was.

the same can be said about a dev squad, or shruk platform. if you sneak them up, kiss

But in all honesty, if you are defending your gens, you put your defenders before them, so they cannot get into range russian.

[BudgetMessiah]

Good players will make sure you can't rush up to a gen with a Dev squad or a Shuri plat. How can you make sure a stikbomba doesn't run up and nade your gens?

I'm wondering what technique could effectively stop platforms that wouldn't also stop a squad of stikkbommas.

[Brenil]

Platforms give you a warning (they fire) and cannot simply mash a button, boom dead generator, and then retreat. Stikkbombas can be stopped, yes, but with far more effort taken than it does to trash generators. The only people so far defending Stikkbombas are blatantly biased Ork players who cannot see past their own tusks.

Stikkbombas, and all grenades in general, need a nerf against building damage by about half and Orks need a more reliable (and less exploitive) way to raid generators, which the solution would be either Shootas or Stormboyz by increasing their damage to buildings to be in line with other races' counterable generator destroyers.

Anyone who believes that one key to take out a generator, another to get to safety, and twenty seconds to do it all over again is balanced needs to seriously wonder where their mind has gone. But then again some of the people defending this issue also believe that the Mek Boy's mines are perfectly fine as well.

[BudgetMessiah]

However, if a platform manages to make it all the way to your gens unchallenged, your generators are dead. If a stikkbomma makes it all the way to your gens unchallenged, your generators are also dead. The difference is that the ork won't actually gain waaagh from doing this (the cost of the grenades and the reward of destroying a gen neatly cancel each other out) and every other race will gain red bar.

Again, the same tactics that stop devs and platforms also stop stikkbommas. In fact, as was pointed out by Landshark, destroying 1 stikkbomma will prevent that squad's volleys from being potent enough to wipe out a gen. You need to kill the entire platform/devastator squad for similar results.

[Vintage]

Messiah, please read the thread. We have covered numerous times why weapon teams killing gens is preventable and why stikkbommas killing gens has almost no counter.

A setup weapon has to position itself directly in front of the generators. If it positions at max range its damage will not be efficient enough to wipe out a gen before your opponent responds. You must position point blank on the gens, and then set up. Chances are if you are point blank on the gens you have multiple angles where you can be flanked from. Running a weapon team up to point blank on a gen farm, and then setting up, and then beginning to shoot takes far more time, effort, and planning then running a stikkbomma up to the max grenade range and letting off a volley. If you opponent is good, chances are you cannot send a single weapon team to raid gens. It will be dispatched without any trouble before killing a single gen. You have to send a force to back up your weapon team. With Orks, all you need is a single stikkbomma to kill gens. Even if the opponent guards his gens you can still kill them unless they have 2 or more units guarding.

A single Guardian will not prevent stikkbommas from killing gens. Please stop saying this, it is completely false. You cannot kite the stikkbommas, if you do they will simply throw the grenades at the gens. If you stand and shoot, they will melee you and you will die. If you use fleet of foot and run, you do 80% less damage, they will simply continue to nade your gens. You also have to do more then 200 damage to kill a single member. Your unit will not focus fire a single man in the squad. It spreads out the damage. This is why you see 3 man tac squads with only 300 health left quite often. Realistically, you will have to do usually 300+ damage before a single unit dies.

All these arguments have been explained if you simply read the thread. Why must we keep saying them over and over?

[BudgetMessiah]

A single Guardian will not prevent stikkbommas from killing gens. Please stop saying this, it is completely false.

What can a single guardian squad do to a devastator? Become suppressed?

[Vintage]

Are you joking? Try fleet of foot mixed with a plasma grenade. What does what you just said have to do with what you quoted anyway? My quote is about guardians and stikkbommas. Where did you factor in a dev squad from?

[BudgetMessiah]

Try a plasma grenade.

Indeed.


Where did you factor in a dev squad from?

Hmm...for someone who just now chastised me for supposedly being unaware of the previous arguments in the thread, you're displaying a bit of ignorance in what was most immediately discussed on this page. However, as you asked nicely, the dev squad is "factored" in because it is one of the most effective ways of destroying generators at roughly the same time as a stikkbomma.

[Vintage]

Again I will tell you to read the thread. Its not ignorance since I summed it up for you in post #60, read post #60.

[BudgetMessiah]

It was a subtle point, but you suggested that guardians may trump platforms with the use of a grenade (assuming they don't just move and reset, they are completely alone, or they cannot otherwise defend themselves from plasma grenades). I am wondering why this isn't similarly effective at killing stikkbommas. Are they resistant to explosives?

[Vintage]

No, stikkbommas are not resistant to explosives, but the thing is, a weapon team needs to be completely immobile to fire. This is why it is easy to grenade a weapon team and effectively counter it from killing your gens. However, a stikkbomma squad is mobile. It can easily dodge your grenade, then return fire with its own grenades killing your immobile generators which cannot dodge.

[BudgetMessiah]

No, stikkbommas are not resistant to explosives, but the thing is, a weapon team needs to be completely immobile to fire. (Emphasis mine)

And yet, they are not completely immobile at all times. You've never encountered a player who will see the guardians approach, wait till they close to within range and begin winding up the throw, and at that time order his squad to move? Is this sort of defense against plasma grenades impossible for devastators and/or platforms?

[Vintage]

You cannot simply just order your squad to move though man. If your weapon team is already set up, you cannot dodge the grenade. If it is not setup, the Eldar player will simply wait until you do set it up before it throws. Since you have to be set up to shoot, the Guardian squad has no reason at all to throw until you plant yourself. While he waits for you to plant yourself, he can just continue shooting you, and you cannot fight back at all until you are planted. If you plant, you get grenaded. If you don't plant you get shot. It is a lose lose situation.

[BudgetMessiah]

If it is not setup, the Eldar player will simply wait until you do set it up before it throws.

Your argument is contingent on the guardian squad being there before the devastator is set.

In any case, the devastator should be able to break down and move in roughly the same time that it takes to wind up, throw, the grenade to fly to its destination, count down, and then explode to deliver damage. If that is not the case, then perhaps there is a problem with plasma grenades if they automatically render all platforms and devastators useless, which is what you are suggesting.

[Vintage]

Grenades don't make weapon teams useless. They simply have the ability to counter weapon teams and make it so they are not overpowered. What we are arguing now is a basic game play element that you seem to not understand. I am not trying to insult you, I promise you I am not. I am done arguing with you on this particular issue, nothing more can be said really.

It's not that I am unable to make an effective argument, I believe I have. You have chosen to sidestep my argument and use a Red Herring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(logical_fallacy)#Red_herring) to take away focus from the real issue which is stikkbommas.

[BudgetMessiah]

If you're unable to make an effective argument, I promise you I am not insulted.

And just to clarify: you are arguing that it is impossible to hit a squad which isn't immobile for 3 seconds at a stretch with a grenade. This speaks for itself.

P.S. You're either done arguing, or you're not. Coming back to make an addendum to the previous post (one which is clearly a response to what followed) rather than start a new one, doesn't give the impression that you're being truthful when you say you'd like to disengage.

[Goobers]

I don't get this Plasma Grenade argument...

Can't the Guardians, ya know, just shoot the StikkBommaz? Its not like the Stikkbommaz can attack them since they will just FoF away. 200hp isn't exactly a lot so even a Guardian Squad could manage to shoot one down before they get to the generators so long as you see them coming.

[BudgetMessiah]

Yes, that's also true. Not sure if this info is correct, but one site says that guardians do 7 DPS per unit, so figure about 35 for the squad, 20 seconds for a cooldown on the grenades, and that's roughly 700 damage. Isn't that more than the entire squad of bommaz dead before their grenades can cool down once?

[Saias]

Are you seriously sugggesting anyone is retarded enough to throw their grenades and sit there getting shot by guardians without moving for 20 seconds?...

HWT can be countered by guardians fairly easily, especially if they have Embolden.
Stikkbommas however cannot be easily countered by guardians, they'll dodge and grenades you attempt to throw and will simply retreat the moment they use their own grenade on the generators.

[BudgetMessiah]

Stikkbommas however cannot be easily countered by guardians, they'll dodge and grenades you attempt to throw and will simply retreat the moment they use their own grenade on the generators.

First off, I don't think this is a good argument. It's not impossible to hit stikkbommaz with a grenade, it's just more difficult than a platform. If you just get one of them, that will certainly kill that unit in the squad, making demolition much more difficult.

However, even if you kill one only after the first stikkbomb volley (in the case of guardians, either with a grenade which is about 200 damage or roughly 525 damage in shuriken damage in the 15 seconds it takes for the stikkbomb to cool down...so odds are pretty good that this can happen), the ork just traded 55 req, 2 power, and 10 global resource to take down 100 resource worth of generators and give his opponent about 11 points of global resource. This is a pyrrhic victory for the ork at best, and provided there is some pressure on the stikkbommaz as he's making this attack, a trick they can do only once. If you take down two of the bommaz, then the ork just lost resources to take down the one generator.

I think this stikkbomb tactic is only truly effective if the ork is left unchallenged at his opponent's generators. I can't tell if this is happening or not in peoples' games, and I doubt that anyone will concede that this is the actual problem in their games.

Perhaps it would be most helpful to the side that is making the case for a stikkbomba nerf if they could post a replay of this happening: a stikkbomba team challenging a gen farm, meeting a rapid-responding defender, and despite the defender's best efforts, still managing to destroy the generators. It would go a long way towards making the problem clearer.

[Saias]

Indeed i'm fed up of this theorycraft, we need replays ftw

[Goobers]

Then go find some, your the one trying to prove its overpowered.

[Saias]

Actually i couldn't care less about stikkbommas blowing up generators, infact i don't think they're even necessarily overpowered. I was just making a point about guardians not being able to stop stikkbommas, carry on.

[hellic]

I don't get this Plasma Grenade argument...

Can't the Guardians, ya know, just shoot the StikkBommaz? Its not like the Stikkbommaz can attack them since they will just FoF away. 200hp isn't exactly a lot so even a Guardian Squad could manage to shoot one down before they get to the generators so long as you see them coming.


First off, I don't think this is a good argument. It's not impossible to hit stikkbommaz with a grenade, it's just more difficult than a platform. If you just get one of them, that will certainly kill that unit in the squad, making demolition much more difficult.

However, even if you kill one only after the first stikkbomb volley (in the case of guardians, either with a grenade which is about 200 damage or roughly 525 damage in shuriken damage in the 15 seconds it takes for the stikkbomb to cool down...so odds are pretty good that this can happen), the ork just traded 55 req, 2 power, and 10 global resource to take down 100 resource worth of generators and give his opponent about 11 points of global resource. This is a pyrrhic victory for the ork at best, and provided there is some pressure on the stikkbommaz as he's making this attack, a trick they can do only once. If you take down two of the bommaz, then the ork just lost resources to take down the one generator.

There are two very, very significant facts both of you fail to realize.

One: Fog of War. You're going to see the Stikkbommaz for two seconds, and then a gen is gone.

Two: You keep a squad to protect your gen and extend your sight range? You just lost map control. If you try to bring a squad to protect your gens after you see the Stikkbommaz, refer to above.

Also, if that squad happens to be Guardians:
Let's take grenades out of the argument, since both squads have them (and can use them on each other and also dodge them). Sooooo...1v1, Stikkbommaz will never lose to Guardians.

Budget: Why the hell would Stikkbommaz stick around in enemy territory while they wait for the nade cooldown?

[LandShark]

wait 1 second.

how do you lose map control if both of you are taking 1 unit out of the mix. you kept a guardian back, he kept a stickbomma. sounds equal.

and why exactly arent your guardians covering from a short distance to give an earlier spot.also you can use a shield to cut off other sections.

[Troubleshooter]

Landshark, are we talking 1v1 here?

If so, one player really can not afford to have less mass on the field acting aggressively in tier 1. 3v3 is more forgiving of defensive play due to the magnified effect of defensive strategies in a target rich environment.

In 1v1, a GU squad on defense (or plat, or really anything) is not acting aggressively, and will likely not see much in the way of action since would be raiders will choose to engage somewhere else if they feel like their raid will fail to produce results. That presents a problem of mass somewhere else on the map which gives the ork a significant advantage, which will produce map control and tech parity even without the successful raid. The only solution for the defender is to try to work offensive action in with defensive routes to keep sweeping high traffic areas for raiders. Its less efficient than just ignoring the threat, but better than planting units waiting for raids.

What ends up happening if the ork (or eldar) player is good is that they will probe your gen-farm for defenses and if opportunity permits, they will nuke one or more generators and retreat if confronted. If they sense that what ever defense is present is weak, they will likely bring over their hero (preferably a high mobility one like mek or WS) and either tank or otherwise distract the defense while they nuke and retreat. Wash-rinse-repeat until tier 2 and then crush you with unchallenged mechs.

The synergy between high mobility heroes and low risk gen raids is the core issue. Random nuking of lone gens is a nuisance, its when its turned into an industry by skilled nade-chuckers that it becomes a balance issue.

One could argue that orks at least dont have a quality raid unit outside of stickbommas, and so they need this capablity... but at least with eldar they have plats. This is why Orks should have a similar role for non-nade-chucking units to level the playing field.

[Dux]

how do you lose map control if both of you are taking 1 unit out of the mix. you kept a guardian back, he kept a stickbomma. sounds equal.
One Guardian has a 0% chance of stopping a Stikkbomma squad from destroying at least one gen before retreating; you would need at least double the cost in units just sitting back and defending the gen to be effective, which is where losing map controls comes into play. Stikkbomma gen raids simply cannot be reasonably defended against.

[hellic]

wait 1 second.

how do you lose map control if both of you are taking 1 unit out of the mix. you kept a guardian back, he kept a stickbomma. sounds equal.

and why exactly arent your guardians covering from a short distance to give an earlier spot.also you can use a shield to cut off other sections.
You're keeping your Guardian squad there 100% of the time. The Stickbomma squad? It's doing whatever the hell it wants because you're afraid of instant gen bash. Besides, one Guardian squad (even with all your attention on that single squad and gen farm), can't kill a single Stikkbomma before he gen bashes and retreats.

[LandShark]

if you put your guardians in a direct line of where the stickbommas are going. fire at them up until the point they try and engage in melee, toss the grenade just outside of ff range, they either take the hit or run back, i guarantee they will lose atleast 1 guy even if the manage to dodge the nade.

[hellic]

You're ignoring still the map control and line of sight/predictability issues. I'll jump at your bait though.

Stikkbommaz are not Sluggas. They don't have to rush your Guardians, especially when they're actually after your gens. So you throw your nade but you're surprised to find that they're not rushing into melee and you miss. They throw their nades at you and/or the gens and let's assume you can dodge them (your Guardians, that is, not your power gens). But then, what we're left with is a Slugga vs. unupgraded GU matchup. And it's not going to end pretty for you.

[FooF]

Too many people are assuming fog of war doesn't exist. As many have mentioned, Stikkbommas can hit a Gen and run before you have time to react. If you are keeping a unit back to watch your gens, that's a unit not capping or doing anything productive.

As a SM player, most of the time I just pray my ASM squad is out before the Stikks arrive, because I know they're coming. If I'm lucky, I jump them before they throw anything and force a retreat but if I move my ASM off the Gen farm, I know they'll get whatever they want. Alternatively, I don't cap the natural Gen but go for one in the middle just so the Stikks waste a trip. :P

HWT can take out the farm faster but they put themselves at a lot more risk to do so.

I don't know if I want to nerf the Stikkbommas necessarily but they sure are annoying. I have no solutions, I'm just supporting the opinion that they are very effective and might need to be looked at.

[Scooter]

Something else people are forgetting: fire on the move accuracy penalties.
Guardians (like most ranged units) do effectively half damage while moving. So take the 1 guardian defending from 1 bomma scenario, the bommas can throw and kill a gen, then run around a blocking object (as exists at the power nodes on both Siwal and the Jungle Swamp) forcing the guardians to run after them if they want to keep shooting them, and taking little damage because of the movement penalties, and then after the cooldown wears off take down a second generator.

So if the bomma player knows what they are doing, a single guardian squad cannot prevent two generators from being destroyed without any bomma losses.
It takes two Eldar squads or a well positioned SP to prevent a successful bomma power raid.

Bommas are massively more effective than platforms or devastators because either of the latter can be countered by being forced into melee by any unit in the game.

[cyborgZero]

Play against the AI if you cannot handle multiplayer, stickbommaz should be the last of your worries. It's no different than using fleet of foot on two guardian squads and dropping plasma grenades, and you don't need to retreat because you already are on fleet of foot, allowing to run from almost any infantry units. If stickbommaz lose one squad member, they cannot destroy a generator in one volley, but one guardian using a plasma grenade losses no damage efficiency.

[Saias]

And that proves exactly what about countering stikkbommas with guardians?

[cyborgZero]

And that proves exactly what about countering stikkbommas with guardians?

I said that guardians are just as dangerous with their plasma grenades and fleet of foot, actually more dangerous since you get more guaridans on the field per game. Why don't you complain about their grenade damage to buildings?

A plasma grenade does approx. 260 damage to building
A stick bomb does approx. 170 damage to building

A plasma grenade uses squad energy, which regenerates for free, and does not hinder your zeal pool which allows you to use storm, or other abilities

A stick bomb drains from the Waaagh pool, which you have to fight to obtain and need to use powers such at rocks, waaagh, or other commander specific abilities

[hellic]

...

Seriously, I can't believe you made that comparison. You're comparing a 330/10 squad with TWO 310/10 (soon to be 320/15) squads. Double the cost and double the build time? Seriously?

Not to mention the 40 sec cooldown of plasma nades vs. the 15 sec cooldown for Stikkbombs? Don't even bring up the WAAAAGH cost. You only lose 9 net WAAAAAGH, which will regenerate way before the Guardians can get 35 energy back.

[Goobers]

Here is what I don't get about this whole argument;

If you are over the other side of the map fighting, practically any unit in the game will burn down a generator or the whole farm before retreating at the last moment, not just Stikkbommaz.

If you are there and defending the generators or you army is at least on that side of the map then the Stikkbommaz are easily reduced in numbers so they can't threaten the generators. If the Stikkbommaz participate in the battle and route your force, they will move up and burn down all your generators their whole army, not just the Stickbommaz.


I get the feeling that people arguing against Stikkbommaz one-shotting gens have lost to orkz and needed to find something they were actually good at to whinge about. I mean come on, we have chosen one of the weakest starting unit in the game, Guardians, and have insisted that we removing the ability that quite litteraly blows everying infantry related the orkz have to pieces from this argument because the ork player can 'dodge them'. Lets whine about Tank Bustaz being useless against Falcons due to kiting, whats the Counter to that? Oh right, burning down generators so they can't get or at least delay the Falcon.

Seriously...
A good plasma grenade hit on a Slugga Squad can make back that generators 100req that the ork player burnt down. Read: Actually hit a slow, large unit that is going to make a bee line to your squads.

[iko]

Every race except for Tyranids has an easy way to wipe out generators in T1.

Ork = Stikkbommaz
SM = Heavy Bolter Devastators
Eldar = Shuriken Cannon Weapon Team

Tyranids can maybe try 3+ Spore Mines, but that's far too cost ineffective.

tl;dr = Stikkbommaz are fine against Generators.

[Coffee]

Shurikens and HB are still slow, and shurikens do less damage. By the time shurikens got a node down you have more time to respond and catch them before they get to float away slowly. Sure they may get an extra gen down but it should prove to be easy to destroy it.

Stikkbomma's? In - gen down - GONE. Immediately. Poof. Nothing you can do about it. They can be gone with a finger click.

You can still use shurikens to take down gens but they pose a lot more risk. The stikk is easy.

[mlai]

Ppl are asking for a nerf which has FAR-RANGING IMPLICATIONS for the Ork army. It's not like asking for Rippers to be easier to kill. Relic makes Rippers easier to kill, and the Nid army becomes a bit more balanced and everyone's happy. Relic nerfs Stikkbomma's ability to snipe gens, and every Ork player loses as soon as his opponent casually earns enough power to click on the tier 2 button.

If you want to suggest nerfing Stikkbomma nade damage vs buildings, then you must also detail a comprehensive plan that makes Ork tier 2 able to match everyone else's tier 2. If you cannot do this, and is just asking for an isolated nerf, then the cure is worse than the disease: You make an entire army underpowered for the sake of erasing one tier-1 imba.

[Saias]

That's still the same silly argument that mekboy abusers use however, mlai.

"wah wah my other wargear sucks therefore i have every right to insta jib all your squads!"

Although obviously stikkbommas aren't on the same level as that, the fact that the rest of the race has minor difficulties doesn't mean OP units should be allowed.

[iko]

A platform setting up out of fog has as much surprise value as Stikkbommaz. The platform, actually positioned properly, will be guaranteed to wipe our your entire gem farm. Stikkbommaz? One per 15 seconds, and chances are the main node will stay up so you can rebuild power once they're gone. Not the cause with weapon teams.

Their trade off? Mobility. Hit-and-run.

Stikkbommaz are balanced.

[mlai]

I agree with Iko, but I'm also looking at it from your POV, Saias.

It's not the same argument, Saias. If you nerf Mekboy mines in an isolated fashion, you underpower 1 Ork Commander. If you nerf Stikkbommas in an isolated fashion, you underpower the entire Ork army.

Also, it's easier to balance Mekboy if you nerf his mines -- you just buff his other gears. But what will you buff/change, after you nerf Stikkbommas? Nobody so far has ANY well thought-out ideas.

[Troubleshooter]

Your making it sound like Orks only have stiks for countering gens... they have other units, waagh, wargear, and spells to help out.

The problem is that ANY race has a spammable low-risk answer to tech... not just fast tech, but any tech at all.

What you fail to realize, as do many eldar players, is that if you keep clinging to this tactical advantage, it forces fast tech builds on the enemy since they MUST keep up with tech or die... queue vicious cycle.

If you want an example... look at the LS rush from DoW. SM tier 1 sucked, and they had a no-win problem vs. Necrons. Counter was the LS Spam rush, which was great at countering Necrons, and every-other-goddamn-thing out there. SM players switch to exclusive BO's that get LS out earlier and in greater numbers... forcing other players to rush harder and harder to stop them. A build designed to counter rushing solid tier 1 forced every game to be about rushing tier 1 or die because no tech build to tier 2 could prevent the LS from sweeping the field of all infantry resistance.

DoW2 nade spam isn't at that point, but it does prevent any tier 2 buffs to orks or eldar from ever being balanced in light of it. If Ork or eldar tier 2 ever became any more deadly than it is, all other races would be trapped into fast tech/turtle builds or die. Its already close to that now, given the impact of early mechs on any game.