[1.2.1]Techmarine Five Pack

[Brenil]

I've recently switched my primary race from longtime Eldar to going back to my roots with the good 'ol Techmarine for Space Marines. With that said I've done a bit more 1v1 with the new (and somewhat improved) matchmaking service and have come away with quite a few close games. I've compiled a pack of some of the better ones I've played, all of them involving 1v1 using the Techmarine. I won't bother going through the descriptions of each and every one and some have better level of play than others, but all opponents are TS 24+ and are mostly close and have some very decisive battles within them.

Cutting to the chase, there are a few interesting moments to be on the look out for, such as:

- Orb of the Ommissiah negating the newly powerful Warp Spiders in a creek-side ambush.

- A Razorback leading an early Deff Dread and Mekboy (hilariously) in a circle around the map to buy time for me to get sufficent AV and to lead it to its doom.

- Effective turret usage (oh my!).

- Plasma Gun Overcharge annihilation (even going so far as to seriously harm and almost kill a Nob squad).

... and various other smaller moments such as a Mekboy trying in vain to exploit insta-gib mines on me in one particular match only to fail almost in every attempt.

Enjoy.

[Troubleshooter]

Thanks for sharing your replays... TM replays are especially welcome, since they are scarce around here!

I'll watch these later and provide some feedback and questions... I can tell you already that unless you have the same cap-order as me, I'm going to want to know if you have a philosophy behind what you do. ;)
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Edit: Well, you dominated most of those... so good for rookies to see how its done. Really good for seeing orbs used vs. just about everything... well done.

For all your talk about bionics... I notice its conspicuously absent from your replays. :p

Also I got a bit of schooling on the real power of scouts with shotguns. I almost never buy them, but now I see how they can be good vs. eldar at least.

[Brenil]

I've phased out use of Bionics for Artificer's Armor at the moment, I've been experimenting with mines and turrets far more often (although not in these replays), I've found Bionics can still be useful to disrupt ranged heavy armies but honestly I've been shirking most armor until after the Orb and Plasma Gun.

Also I wouldn't necessarcily say I dominated all of the games, a few yes, but others (like the Eldar standoff) I felt when actually playing it that it was far closer than it appeared; of course that could be because it was a instant rematch where previously the guy beat me.

As for shotguns, I honestly prefer them over sniper rifles due to their disruption utility and the ability to completely shut down a frontal offensive. Also the knockback goes well with the Techmarine in early game with a Plasma Gun. Shotguns + Overcharge = alot of dead things.

[Hirmetrium]

I swear by Signum armor. Just makes your army instantly gibb a single squad, or force it out of the battle.

Going to watch these later, thanks Brenil.

Statistically speaking, shotguns > sniper simply because every squad member gets one, and they all contribute the firepower, so you have a 60% chance of quadruple knockdown (4x15%) ... so their pretty nice, especially given the cost and the added bonus of extra suppression/removal from cover.

EDIT: WRONG MATH IS WRONG (as quoted below)

[Pyro Paul]

the TechMarine is such a well rounded hero.
definatly will be watching these gems.

i've been gravitating towards Blessed bolter and sigmentum armor. killing heroes and nob squads in seconds is just so damn satisfying.

[Brenil]

Signum Armor is fantastic, but in 1v1 against good or knowledgable opponents it has a few weaknesses that make it not an instant buy with me anymore. These are namely:

- Very small hitpoint bonus and no health regeneration bonus. This means your Techmarine is very squishy and without means of healing beyond retreating. Anyone wise to a Techmarine's tricks will quickly focus fire the TM and force a retreat or death.

- Given Mark Target has a very obvious signal most smart players will retreat any infantry who are marked or at the very least move them out of the line of your fire. While this can be useful to force someone to retreat, it isn't always such.

- Signum Armor is only useful for Mark Target and if you don't have a ranged heavy army then it is very difficult to capitalize on the bonus damage received; therefore it is only useful with a ranged-based army, which contray to popular belief isn't always the best to get with the Techmarine (especially against Eldar).

I've actually found the best use for Mark Target against good players is against heroes (forcing them to retreat) or vehicles (who cannot retreat). But seeing as the Orb of the Ommissah can negate many support heros (Apothecary/Mekboy/Farseer/Warp Spider Exarch/Ravener) and vehicles, I believe even then it isn't always necessarcy.

I've found some more promise with mines tonight, I still wish each minefield either cost less energy (so you could make more) or had a bigger minefield, but I had a Force Commander run straight over some tonight in trying to tie up my Techmarine, he lost a little less than half his hitpoints hitting both mines, was suppressed, and then nailed by my Techmarine at ranged. Not too shabby. Still not as good as they should be, but I believe there is a fundamental use for mines and seeing as I'm liking Artificer's Armor durability, the mines are really a bonus at this point.

I'll post some more replays of my somewhat unorthodox Techmarine usage when viable. Some in the future might be 3v3 as that is where I experiment the most at the moment.

[Aetherfox]

i've had quite good usage of techmarine in 3v3 using master-crafted bolter, artificer armor, orb.

plasma dev, supported by a bolter turret... and the techmarine himself can instantly stop any squad (high powered shot) or vehicle (orb) in their tracks to be sitting ducks for the plasma dev.

[Hirmetrium]

I'm fine with the energy cost, but the biggest annoyance with mines is that the techmarine stands there BULDING THEM for a good 5 seconds. The mekboy spams more mines, and instantly. I just don't see how you can justify tech marine mines by comparison.

Turrets are a waste. At 200/20, and the damage they deal (suppression isn't all that) and the fact their fixed means their almost useless. I think turrets themselves need a major redesign, either getting 360 degrees of fire (with a setup or something) or a MAJOR cost reduction. Right now their next to useless.

The relay beacon is a death sentence, so it needs some sort of alternate retreat. I have no idea what to do with it.

[Skarmory the PG]

so you have a 60% chance of quadruple knockdown (4x15%) and a 45/30/15 for triple/double/single knockdown...

Your math makes my brainmeats hurt. Stop it.

[Troubleshooter]

Well, I will say this for shotties... you can walk right up to a GU squad... I mean like right next to them... put the shotgun in their ears, and open up the most heinous can of whoop ass ever seen.

Its frightening what you can do to eldar with shotties if they are not constantly moving.

[Hirmetrium]

I'd expect a capper unit to beat another capper unit, similar to how grenades > scouts. Also note embolden makes guardians a bit more reisistant to shotties.

[Brenil]

I'm fine with the energy cost, but the biggest annoyance with mines is that the techmarine stands there BULDING THEM for a good 5 seconds. The mekboy spams more mines, and instantly. I just don't see how you can justify tech marine mines by comparison.

I agree in a way but not in another. The biggest problem with Techmarine's mines are he spends 65 energy and five seconds building them for two mines very close together. That makes it nigh on impossible to make a proper minefield, which is the entire purpose of mines, to lockdown an area. I have no problem with the build time in of itself, he shouldn't just toss down the mines like the Mekboy does, but he should have a comparable mine spread as to the Mekboy; which he currently does not. Mines in of themselves aren't worth getting Artificer's Armor, this is true, but the significant health regeneration boost and extra 200 hitpoints are. Mines are a bonus that if played properly can actually have a significant effect, especially since no one ever thinks to look for them playing SM.

As for turrets, I would of agreed with you two weeks ago until I've seen replays and results from myself of proper turret placement and support. The key with turrets isn't to have them placed in an area where they can be logically flanked. The best places for them to be are the northeastern part of the northern VP on Siwal Frontier, the very south of the southern VP on that same map, the northeastern part of the center VP on Green Tooth Gorge, and several other places on different maps I won't list at this time. In those specific locations they can cover the VP and all approaches therein and with one supporting squad (or just the Techmarine) can lockdown the area requiring the enemy to make a major push into the area. Not too shabby. Turrets are useful for fire support, not outright super damage in of themselves, they're great at helping to lockdown terroritory, but not locking it down by themselves. Turrets probably need a slight buff in damage or reduction in power cost, but other than that I think they're useful if properly supported and planned for. Of course they're not useful for every situation though.

Aetherfox is absolutely right about the effectiveness of a plasma devestator and turret paired together. What wasn't mentioned is if you have one Scout in the area for detector, you can effectively stop all harassment and force a complete withdrawl from that area or force a major offensive. Either way, they play into your hand.

Don't be so fast to discount turrets, they require a significant force to get rid of as I've found. Yes two grenades can kill them, but if supported and properly placed, those grenades, missile tacs, or stikkbombas, or what have you, will never make it within range and if they do I promise you they'll lose more than 200/40 in resources attempting to destroy it.

[Aetherfox]

hirmetrium - i find the turret quite worthwhile. it's a fair bit stronger than your usual heavy bolter, and does the usual insane damage at close range. at 50%-100% range (where most people engage them) they have a 15% damage multiplier - at close range, a 350% multiplier - causing players to severely underestimate them. the idea is really to put the plasma dev in the 25% zone and play a game of chicken, daring the enemy to come melee them =p plus the turret is a detector - scaring off the usual anti-entrenchment tactics, and now you don't have to rely on keeping an upgraded scout squad around. and lastly, you can put a proximity mine behind your turret for even better coverage.

i see it as buying VP with req and power. sure any static defense can be eventually penetrated given enough time and determination, but at 200/20, the value the turret adds to a defensive setup near a VP is well worth it.

edit: brenil, the turret detects ^_^ don't need a scout in the area.

[Brenil]

It does detect, but has a small radius which means your plasma devestator is sniper bait without Scouts in the area. The detection of the turret is good to prevent inflitrators from flanking or grenading the turret but not for keeping long-range spotting or sniping away.

[Troubleshooter]

Turrets are barely worth their cost as it is. The races you need them most against they are totally useless for. Nids lol at them, and Orks stik them to death in a single volley.

I usually use them to clear an activated energy node... rarely to lock down a VP, and almost always vs. eldar and SM only.

[Brenil]

I've used them against Tyranids to a limited degree and while they have some success verus non-exploitive builds, against exploitive ones, yes they're garbage.

However Orks, I have to disagree with you on. Stikkbombas can indeed take out a turret in one volley, but if you setup the turret in the right location and have a support team in the area that Stikkbomba will never get all three grenades off. They will take losses, if not their entire squad.

Remember a turret costs 200/40, if you kill that much or more, the turret was cost effective and in circumstances where you support them you will earn your money back. I'm not saying turrets don't need a buff, they do, but they're not as worthless as many people believe they are.

[Frigidair44]

I usually use them to clear an activated energy node... rarely to lock down a VP, and almost always vs. eldar and SM only.

Thats an absolutely excellent idea. It would be annoying as heck in tier 1 against eldar and sm.

Yeah I'm going to be doing that.

[konfeta]

Remember a turret costs 200/40, if you kill that much or more, the turret was cost effective and in circumstances where you support them you will earn your money back. I'm not saying turrets don't need a buff, they do, but they're not as worthless as many people believe they are.

The problem with a turret is that it's 30 power that can be avoided, and then stomped on with zero casualties with a walker in tier 2. You really need to make it pay off on its first encounter with an enemy.

[Brenil]

... if you leave it unsupported.

A walker, a missle team, or anything else that can hurt a turret will not destroy the turret without taking significant losses in the process if you properly deploy and support your turret.

And a walker is laughable to a Techmarine. I throw Orb, walker freezes, shoot with missiles, repeat with despicable laugher.

[Troubleshooter]

Never have enough power or req for missles, orbs and turrets though. At some point, you have to force things... which is why a turret on a power node is a good fix. The turret can take the node and make back most of its req in one go, and you can either decap and pinch the gens, or manually target the gens with the turret and "buy back" its cost right then and there. You still lose on power if you don't pinch, but the turret remains and can be considered disposable deterrence.

[Brenil]

Never have enough power or req for missles, orbs and turrets though.

Who said it was a priotry to have turrets at the begining of a match? Build your force first, build turrets (I wouldn't build more than two, one is usually enough) to bulk up your exposed flanks and faraway VPs with support squads that aren't as mobile as your Techmarine and Tacticals (or ASM). Since one of the biggest issues with SM is map control, being able to lock-down terroritory from harassment is a very valuable asset.

The turret on the node is a fine idea, but it is also a suicidal one for the turret that basically spends 200/30 to negate their 425 requisition, power income, and time. A trade-off that is fairly good, but I'm rather opposed to throwing units away, which include a turret, especially when I've had good experiences by using the turret as it is meant to be used, which as a defensive anchor.