View Full Version : When to upgrade wargear/commander usage.
20th Apr 09, 8:57 PM
Just got DOWII off of the steam deal this weekend and I forsee alot of fun with this game. However I find my commanders almost useless mainly because I don't know how to use them or their upgrades. Coming from COH I have no problems with the whole micromanagement of an army, but the further micromanagement of a commander is what kills me. I'm unsure what to use them for (capping, fighting other heroes, standing around my units) and when to upgrade them (early game upgrades?/midgame? wait till the enemy has something that I can counter via wargear?).
For reference: in the BETA I was all about Eldar, but I want to learn SM so I'm using them primarily and I'm basically fighting 1v1s atm. Commander for SM has been the FC so far, but I've looked briefly at the Apothecary and TM. Is the FC as newb friendly as I had presumed he is or is there an even better one to start out with?
20th Apr 09, 9:51 PM
At the beginning levels of commanders, they are no better than just say, a normal squad. After you give them upgrades and/or a few levels, then you can treat them like powerhouses that will be able to easily make the other opponents think twice about that commander.
I honestly only play Orks, but a FC never really seems to give my warboss any trouble, that is unless he has that blasted hammer. IMO the best upgrade for the FC is the force hammer, which is midgame. If you know you want a certain weapon/upgrade, wait and save the resources or spend it on that extra tactical squad.
20th Apr 09, 10:27 PM
It depends on the Commander and the Race but truth be told, T2 is where most of the good gear is at and power is incredibly scarce in T1. Personally, I try to only spend 25-30 power before getting to T2, and that's pretty conservative.
Some people try to get the 45 power to get to T2 ASAP. If that's the case, commander gear is out.
For the FC, yes, the Hammer is the first 30 power you should spend in T2. Some people go for the Razorback but the Hammer makes him a DPS monster. For the Apoth, Stims come first. They'll turn any Tac or ASM squad into DPS machines, as well.
The TM probably should get the Plasma gun in T1, since it downs Commanders and other strong infantry so quickly. Its arguably the best weapon he has and its in T1, so there's not a lot of reason not to use that advantage early.
Gear choice also depends on troop choice. If you get an ASM squad, you'll be Power starved for T2. If you get Stikkbommas, that's not so bad because they're only 10 power. Same goes for Warriors or Banshees, 15 power isn't horrible to spend. The problem is using all the power for T1 upgrades that might not scale well into the later game.
Long story short: if you plan on getting to T2 before your opponent, gear is a power luxury you can't afford. At most, get one piece of gear before T2. Anything more delays T2 too much and the enemy can have a tech advantage they may never relinquish. Few Commanders have uber gear in T1, anyway, so it's best to save the power for the better T2 gear.
21st Apr 09, 1:10 AM
FC is the most newb friendly, he takes a while to take down in T1 if you keep him away from havy bolters and shurikens. The hammer is usually a must have for him, the gadgets are all good, Iron Halo for tanking, teleporter for mobility(especially good if your opponent are using heavy weapons or loads of ranged infantry), and the battle standard for buffing your surrounding squads.
I usually get the "sprint" armor if im not getting teleporter, and the other one if i am. Usually i stay away from his terminator armor, though when facing loads of orcs/nids he will wreck havoc with a heavy flamer.
The Apoth is great with his healing and have hreat grenades vs orcs/nids, but he have very low hp, and can die very fast if he gets caught.
Dont have much experience with the techmarine.
21st Apr 09, 5:28 AM
I wouldn't say that the hammer is a 'must buy' for the FC in T2. It really depends on what you need. If you know that you need more anti-infantry DPS then you should definitely grab that hammer. If, on the other hand, you are being faced with early vehicles, or you already have enough anti-infantry dps, the power fist might be a good choice.
It really depends on what you need at the time. Sometimes I need a good tool to deal with devastator squads so I'll grab the teleporter and turn my FC into a one man assault squad.
I guess what I'm saying is that you should think about what your opponent is building, and where your army falls short in dealing with that threat. Don't just assume that the hammer is the best choice as soon as you hit T2. Often it will be the best choice, but not always.
21st Apr 09, 6:25 AM
That's true in theory Noble but I find there are a combination of elements that make the power fist a fairly useless upgrade.
1. Vehicle kiting. Assuming your opponent is microing his vehicle and not off somewhere else (base, generators, wtvr) your force commander will be unable to catch a transport vehicle without either a teleporter pack (additional cost) OR if your opponent gets punked by screwy AI/pathing.
2. If you are lucky enough to land a stunning blow, the force commander AI seems to get confused and sometimes he just stands around, doing nothing. Depending on the vehicle, you may not be able to deal enough damage to finish it off and you're back to square one.
Personally, I'd rather have a plasma squad and a thunder hammer as a powerful and reliable counter to infantry. If you can put enough hurt on the enemy infantry, the vehicle is left unsupported and is little threat alone, at which point you can bring in a missile tac squad at your leisure.
To OP: Yes I think the FC is the most newb friendly, he just runs around a lot and hits shit. Personally I try to get him the armour of alacrity in tier 1, although I wait until I have at least 1 shotgun squad because they will have a bigger immediate impact on the game. When tier 2 rolls around the hammer is purchased ASAP and I generally get the chapter standard in tier 3.
I personally find that the FC tier 1 equipment is mostly moot. The power sword isn't bad per say, the problem is that tier 1 just doesn't last long enough to justify its cost. You may have an edge in a few tier 1 skirmishes but you wont have as much punch in tier 2. The storm shield is an interesting anti-suppression weapon but infiltrated shotgun scouts are far superior counters to suppression squads, in addition to being good ranged support/suppression units themselves.
The iron halo is good at soaking extra damage but then the FC is already pretty decent at tanking hits, also the halo will drain all your energy and prevent the use of battle cry (or vice versa) which is a much more important ability, especially when combined with the hammer. Artificer armour is good, offers a nice HP boost and regen boost, I just personally find the utility of speed boost to be more appealing, especially when trying to chase down retreating units.
21st Apr 09, 6:49 AM
Good points on the power fist Chris. I usually get the teleporter pack along side it and have pretty good luck with it. It's good for taking out those pesky falcons and predators, not so good at fighting walkers.
I think you're right though that rocket launchers are almost invariably a better AV purchase in tier 2.
21st Apr 09, 1:18 PM
well i finished the campaign which was fun on the first planets and got less interesting as time went on - ive struggled to enjoy the game as i still think the pop caps on the original DOW game when you could have as many terminators and whirlwinds as you want was the way to go :) i dont understand the fashion of getting rid of base building and having ultra low pop caps and everything costing huge amounts of resources - this is COH only with less options, i dont think its great tactical gameplay having just enough troops to adequaltey attack or defend one location and only if you keep retreating because you cant afford to revive or rebuild your army.... but hey! i digress - im getting into it more now ive been playing 3v3 games with cpu and there are a few things ive noticed;
The suppressive fire from shuriken cannons when playing marine against eldar 3v3 cpu is well out of proportion - its relatively easy to win against any race on normal but against eldar marines gets owned! straight out of the box on t1 eldar are laying suppressive fire with units that are cheap as chips while you have fc one squad of tactical marines and your original scouts and are saving up resources to get t2 - very easy to get wiped out - you cant afford to revive your commander he must stay alive and forget about heavy bolters - not mobile enough, assault squads too expansive and no good when the falcons turn up and dont have anough energy to get in and then get out of trouble against troops and suppressive fire from mulitple cpu oppnents. The worst thing about suppressive fire is if you are caught in the open you cant get to cover as your movement is slowed - so you get cust down if you go forwards or back and retreating often fails because you cant determine which way the guy will fallback and they quite often run throughthe enemy and still get killed ! arrrghh!! and of course while this is happening you are getting no resources grrr bloody eldar swine..
ive fought eldar a ton because it is sooo hard to beat them - i think the very first thing against eldar is dont upgrade marine wepaons unless its for missile launchers because they will then be able to take out falcon grav tanks and you will need to as the storm hammer or power fist on the fc is only good against eldar if you have the teleporter and you wont get the option unless you spend the time getting to t3 constantly retreating and losing power and resource points - by the time you get missile launchers you should have a rhino so they can reinforce in the field and against the eldar the first and best upgrade for the commander is the storm shield because its the only real way i can find to deal with the totally outrageous suppressive fire of the t1 eldar units - even if you had enough squads to flank them (which you wont as they are too expensive) they move too slow - storm shield is the only way to walk right up to the shuriken cannon to kik its arse and release your surrounding tropps from supression so they can actually fire off a few shots, of course its rubbish against tanks and walkers which is why you need the marines with missile launchers backing you up - later on go with the energy shield. against any other race i would go for hammer and teleporter as they rock and you can drop in and do rear damage to tanks but eldar just own marines right now IMO.
by the time you have 2 squads of tactical marines with missile launchers, fc, rhino and maybe a dreadnaught you should be able to defend one area well but the cpu will group all its falcon grav tanks from all 3 cpu oppnents and attack you at once (dont get me started on falcon grav tanks!! am i the only one who thinks the eldar are way too powerful in this game? and way too cheap??) if you handle that battle well you can actually beat the odds though and you'll have to as 3v3 cpu this is the only way to win against eldar ive found.
oh and apothecary and tech marine against eldar - cant see how to make it work. in fact i cant see the point of the tech marine at all - everything is too expensive in energy - the idea of building a defensive perimeter just doesnt work as you cant afford it - it takes waay too long and you dont have strong units because you are saving up for the tech marines buildings..
just my thoughts could be wrong - definately going to try chris's idea for scouts against suppression
21st Apr 09, 5:26 PM
Thank you all for the tips, will experiment tonight.
21st Apr 09, 8:13 PM
Well yay! for the hammer thing that is kick ass. That gave me a huge edge in my 1v1.
26th Apr 09, 9:43 AM
What are the thoughts on the FC terminator armor, it seems useful, potentiall with the flamer for a 1 man with support RA cleanser.
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