Fixing Tyranids

[hellic]

As a race, Tyranids are no doubt OP. There are some more noticeable IMBAs (Rippers, Zoans, Ravener tunnels, etc.) but the whole synergy of a Nid army is so much more effective than any other race in the game. Plus, even as the Nids overrun the map and strike wherever they please, no amount of gen-bashing and power denial can stop the them.

Two changes would greatly help balance Tyranids (I'm not considering any other changes).
First, increase the cost of T2 units and Warrior upgrades.
Second, increase the ZEQ (Zeal equivalents) and XP gained from killing Nid units, especially extremely OP ones like the Zoan, Rippers, and tunnels.

Nid units and upgrades just don't need that much power. Zoans and Lictors only cost 40 and 30 power, respectively. Warrior upgrades cost 20, 30, and 40 power, but you only need 2 Warrior Broods, which means a max cost of 80 power (personally, I go for the 20 power Barbed Strangler and 30 power Adrenal Glands). Compare this with SM: Tac weapon upgrades cost the same as WB upgrades, but Tacs need a 25 power Sergeant who can die and must be replaced. In addition, ASM cost 25 power in T1 (also with Sergeant in T2) and Scouts need a weapon upgrade to be effective (20 or 35 power) and a Sergeant (again, 25 more power).

So, my first suggestion is to raise the power cost of all Warriors upgrades by maybe 10 and the T2 units (Zoans and Lictors) by 10-20. Even with these increases, Nids will never have to buy and replace Sergeants, Nobs, or Exarchs like the other armies.

Second, the rewards for killing Nids just aren't worth what you're going to lose trying to do so. For example, you'll kill at most 13 individual Rippers before they can decap/cap your points and retreat to instantly reinforce for free. What do you get out of that? 13 ZEQ and 130 experience and loss of map control. Compare that with the 11 ZEQ and 90 experience gained for killing a single Guardian.
It's not just the Rippers. Like I mentioned before, the synergy of a Nid army is amazing: leaping Hormagaunts and Adrenal Warriors with the complementary Zoan (no FF!) or knockdown Termagaunts and VC Warriors, also with a Zoan, will rape anything of comparative cost. Instead reducing the effectiveness of the Nid army, which could easily result in overnerf and noob outrage, the ease with which other races fight Nids could be increased. That is, with more ZEQ and XP gained from every encounter (even if it's a losing one for the other player), Nids will always have to face tougher enemies and more frequent use of global powers to turn a battle. Will Raveners want to mindlessly spam tunnels when each tunnel destroyed takes the enemy 1/6th closer to an Eldritch Storm or Orbital Bombardment?

Now, I support nerfing Rippers and Tunnels in other ways, but I'm just throwing these ideas out there. Instead of making Tyranids less effective, why not make their enemies more effective at killing them?

[acrimitis]

i think the main solution would be to make them worth more zeq and xp like you said. Rippers are probably the biggest problem as far as that goes IMO. This would enable the other races easier access to abilities which can so easily counter a nid swarm.

And it's very frustrating when you're trying to save up for a Seer Council, Terminators, and what have you when rippers are so worthless per kill, but so necisary to eliminate in a battle.

[XViper]

FYI increasing the amount of zeal received when killing a Tyranid unit would also increase the amount of zeal the Tyranid player gets from losing that unit. They use the same value.

[Demonic Spoon]

Nid units and upgrades just don't need that much power. Zoans and Lictors only cost 40 and 30 power, respectively. Warrior upgrades cost 20, 30, and 40 power, but you only need 2 Warrior Broods, which means a max cost of 80 power (personally, I go for the 20 power Barbed Strangler and 30 power Adrenal Glands). Compare this with SM: Tac weapon upgrades cost the same as WB upgrades, but Tacs need a 25 power Sergeant who can die and must be replaced. In addition, ASM cost 25 power in T1 (also with Sergeant in T2) and Scouts need a weapon upgrade to be effective (20 or 35 power) and a Sergeant (again, 25 more power).

That's because all of their units aside from gaunts and rippers require power. There's nothing wrong with nid power costs; EVERY SINGLE ONE of their t2-t3 units requires power to build -and- power to upgrade. In fact, only gaunts and rippers require no power.

Tacs don't NEED the sergeant upgrade by any means, it's just commonly purchased because it's awesome.


Lictors are in no way overpowered. Relative to their cost, they don't do much damage and die pretty fast. Get some detectors.

Same with zoans. After the shield nerf, they're glass cannons.

And rippers are hardly a problem. Flamethrowers and nades can toast entire squads in seconds. Orks and SM have flamethrowers, and eldar have easy access to nades. -maybe- add a slight (like 2-3 req) reinforcement cost or something minor.

[acrimitis]

That's because all of their units aside from gaunts and rippers require power. There's nothing wrong with nid power costs; EVERY SINGLE ONE of their t2-t3 units requires power to build -and- power to upgrade. In fact, only gaunts and rippers require no power.

Tacs don't NEED the sergeant upgrade by any means, it's just commonly purchased because it's awesome.


Lictors are in no way overpowered. Relative to their cost, they don't do much damage and die pretty fast. Get some detectors.

Same with zoans. After the shield nerf, they're glass cannons.

And rippers are hardly a problem. Flamethrowers and nades can toast entire squads in seconds. Orks and SM have flamethrowers, and eldar have easy access to nades. -maybe- add a slight (like 2-3 req) reinforcement cost or something minor.

Yes, most rid units cost power, but you didn't even mention that some of the most effective rid armies consist of mostly gaunts, with enough of those other creatures for thier auras. There are other ways to use nids, but often they arent used that way, and aren't nearly as effective.

Compaired to other infiltration units, Lictors are OP. The exception can be scouts, but even then scouts are rarely a late game unit, where the lictor's fleshhooks alone make it a bit OP compaired to the scouts. Rangers are no comparison what so ever, the only advantage they have on the lictor's usefullness is that they're tier 1, but they don't gain infiltrate till tier 2. The Kommando is almost as good as the lictor, and would be if they were also tier 2 with a slightly less cost. But if's don't make it happen.

Yes, flamers and nades can destroy rippers in seconds, but often it's only takes seconds for hermies to jump after the rippers and swarm the enemy army, making most range useless while warriors and termies tear it apart.

[Demonic Spoon]

Yes, most rid units cost power, but you didn't even mention that some of the most effective rid armies consist of mostly gaunts, with enough of those other creatures for thier auras. There are other ways to use nids, but often they arent used that way, and aren't nearly as effective.

Of course; the idea of a giant, swarming race supported by a few synapse creatures was pretty much the core design of the nids. I just don't see a huge issue here; warriors, zoans, etc...are not cheap.

They're less power-intensive than other races, sure. I don't see why that's a problem...especially since it's countered by the fact that their core units (Termies, hormies) are shitty without the tech upgrades + synapses


Compaired to other infiltration units, Lictors are OP. The exception can be scouts, but even then scouts are rarely a late game unit, where the lictor's fleshhooks alone make it a bit OP compaired to the scouts. Rangers are no comparison what so ever, the only advantage they have on the lictor's usefullness is that they're tier 1, but they don't gain infiltrate till tier 2. The Kommando is almost as good as the lictor, and would be if they were also tier 2 with a slightly less cost. But if's don't make it happen.

Scout: Can snipe or use shotguns to stun units. Fast, and can drop nades. Surprise nades from cloak? Yes plox

Rangers: Are you kidding me? Sniper rifle, can suppress any unit in the game, can infiltrate, can cloak and give huge defensive bonuses to virtually your entire army

Kommandos- Love Da Dakka destroys pretty much any infantry in the game. Burna bombs are the bane of anything that doesn't move immediately. Smoke bombs = deployable green cover, anywhere.

Lictor: Decent in melee combat, can pull a single unit backwards via fleshhooks.


Yes, flamers and nades can destroy rippers in seconds, but often it's only takes seconds for hermies to jump after the rippers and swarm the enemy army, making most range useless while warriors and termies tear it apart.

What usage are you complaining about?

If you're complaining about ripper usage for capping...they wont have hormies behind them.

In direct combat...they're a 270 req unit that cannot kill anything. Proper use of flamethrowers pretty much stops them from being tied up in melee (Hint: You don't just send them charging head first). Only eldar have issues with charging rippers as nades are harder to use against moving rippers...but since they have nades on all their guardian squads, not to mention that their infantry have FoF and thus can kite, there's no problem.

[hellic]

XViper: That sucks. =(

I doubt only giving higher XP will balance out stuff like the Lictor Alpha with the Hormagaunt herd.

DemonicSpoon: How is "EVERY SINGLE ONE of their t2-t3 units requires power to build -and- power" an argument? All the T2 and T3 units of other races need power to build, except for Lootas and PDevs. Those are set-up weapons and the Zoan...isn't. Speaking of Zoans, their shields only got nerfed by 20%. They weren't regenerating before either. On the other hand, they don't have FF, don't have a firing arc, don't have a set-up time, and turn vehicles into scrap metal with an ability that has a range of 972427523847252.

Who said anything about Lictors being OP? I only want a power cost increase because Tyranids don't require much power right now. This is a fact. They don't have vehicles to build in T2 (and only have 1 tank in T3 with the same power cost as a Fire Prism) and they don't need squad leaders to scale their squads because upgrading tiers already does that. Yes, you're not forced to buy a Sergeant for your Tacs, but if you don't, they're still only a T1.5 unit.

Is there nothing wrong with a race that can easily power harass (2 squads of HG can take down a gen fast, even before Adrenal Broods, oh...and tunnels) while not even needing a full gen farm to reach T2 and build an unstoppable army?

You seriously don't think Rippers are OP? Even with the replays Hirmetrium put up? Sure, you can get flamers (as SM), but come T2 you won't have plasma to kill Warriors. Eldar nades? Really? Even if the Rippers are standing still and capping a point you're not going to kill an entire squad with one nade. Assuming the Nid player doesn't pay attention and move away from it in the first place. Nade hits and maybe 90% health is gone (if positioning is good). Guess what? Guardians can't take out that remaining 10% health (either in ranged or melee) before the Rippers can finish the job, retreat, and come back 15 seconds later. Oh, and now you don't have a nade against Hormagaunts and you're forced to retreat.

[Feyaden]

Ummm, when I play nids, I am always out of energy.

[With nids]
My standard build is 1x horm, 1x term, 1x warriror.

Then from there it all depends on my opponent. If they are higher cost like sm, I am always teching up my hero and units to deal with them (I usually play lictor, and almost all my energy goes into him to be even mildly usefull). If they are eldar that run around and use buildings or horde GU's my energy goes to spore mines, not to mention on top of other essentialy stuff.

[against nids]
Against nids my only issue right now is the whack a mole zoanthrope. To be honest it rarely gets to this (I win about 3/4 of my games against nids, usually they are ts 30+ while im 25) , and if it does its because I played badly.

_____________________________
I know there is a lot of anti-nid sentiments, and I know a lot of people accuse nid players of abusing lame tactics ( I have only used ravenor once in ranked, and that was when I chose random, I prefer lictor/tyrant over the ravenor to be honest), and that most people will say that people that use nids dont want to admit the nids are broken. Truth be told I have had success against nids of all skill rating, and on most maps. Thus I wish to say I don't think they are truly broken, just easiest to learn. It is true that you have to be pretty micromanaging to fight against them.

As for ravenor tunnels, in 1v1 I have no real big issue them. There are many easy fixes against tunnels. As marines its not too bad (Again I play apoth, who is naturally geared for fighting nids no problem). As eldar never had a problem. As orks, well orks I don't understand (everyone says they are too weak but I haven't played them enough/ understand them enough yet)

_______________
Edit: that being said, a few tweaks would make it more challenging than currently is, and I would welcome that as long as it doesn't destroy the race competitivly.

Double Edit: I can even write a giant thread with all my tricks I have used for killing nids. In fact looking back at the game I think too many people are linear with builds and tactics rather than being flexible =/ and understanding all the races strengths and weaknesses.

[BudgetMessiah]

no amount of gen-bashing and power denial can stop the them.

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/sc/posters/web/Picture89.jpg

!!!


FYI increasing the amount of zeal received when killing a Tyranid unit would also increase the amount of zeal the Tyranid player gets from losing that unit. They use the same value.

FYI, this isn't true. The victor gets 100% of that value, the loser gets 75%, it's not exactly the same amount.

[The Voltr0n]

Fact is relic Failed at the nids... there not a swarm... there an OP spam of worrior broodes... its like... hey i'm gonna spam this unit... its gonna be great against vehicles and infantry... YAY!, and don't be calling me a crappy player...

*stops the sarcasm.

Super fail.. imo

[Mooglepies]

From a 3v3 perspective playing as SM, the only real problems I've personally encountered (not to say that other imbalances don't exist) with Nids are:

Zoey Spam - But then since I play walker-heavy Techmarine, this is in fact a hard counter to me... I do find it extremely odd that they have no friendly fire at all. The
Nid player was quite able to spam gaunts/warriors at me to tie up my infantry while nuking everything in sight (dreads Tacs and my commander) with 3 zoeys. Perhaps he'd have thought twice if he knew his melee units would cop it?

Rippers - In general. Killing them gets you nothing and doesn't really punish the nid player at all because they're so cheap. I'd like to see small arms fire do drastically more damage to Rippers than they do currently; this would allow Guardians and scouts to actually damage them adequately; Orks already have a T1 counter in that Sluggas damage rippers adequately in melee (I may be incorrect on this, please correct me if so) and Stickbommaz are hilariously good at killing Rippers already.

Tunnel Spam - This should be fairly obvious at this point and has been discussed many times. My (admitedly rather harsh) preference would be for tunnels to either cost actual resource (req/power, the same way that Mek/Techmarine have to pay for structures) or be moved to the Ravener's global power list and cost ZEQ like Webway Gates (this is probably a bit too harsh of a nerf and would take away from the uniqueness of nids. I like assymetrical balance).

Just my thoughts. Not exhaustive and probably not entirely correct either.

[Sin Fang Bous]

All nid units should be weakened to the point where they are below average when alone.

Relic needs to promote the Hive Mind and the swarm mentality that goes with it. If you catch a Warrior Brood alone, they should be taken down as quick as a squad of Banshees. If they have some Gaunts around, all squads in the swarm should perform much better and last longer.

As Synapse stands now, it just makes good units even better.

[hellic]

Here's a list of Tyranid units and general IMBAs. Mind you I play all the races (in 3v3s).

Hive Tyrant: Fine.

Ravener Alpha: Tunnels. Also, a support hero decimating whole armies? The RA is either the best-designed hero or the most OP because he has wargear for any situation.

Lictor Alpha: Pheromones can reinforce anything (even none-Nids) and reinforce Gaunts/Rippers faster than you can kill them...
The range of Scything Talons is huge (a whole screen of units can literally be suppressed). Yet the LA is really too bugged for many people to use him.

As a whole, Tyranid heroes seem to level too damn fast. Not sure why.

Rippers: If you don't know already...>_>

Hormagaunts: Fine in T1, but with Adrenal synapse they leap so far that they can catch up to retreating units. Not only is the pathing out of a HG swarm horrible, but even if you retreat at half health, you'll still die because of their freaking leap.

Termagaunts: Fine in T1, but the knockdown from the VC is too frequent. One squad can effectively keep any other squad out of combat, allowing Zoans, the VC Brood, or HG to do some real damage.

Warriors: Too much leaping knockdown. Same reason Banshees got nerfed after the beta. And Shees don't have Heavy Infantry armor (in T1, no less!). Also, WB have way too much courage (x2 as much as Tacs or ASM). They won't be suppressed before they jump into melee with a plat or Ranger squad. And Adrenals Glands and Venom Cannons are both soft-counters to vehicles (yeah, AG do less damage than before, but still, other races don't have this)?!

Spore Mines: Mostly fine after the tunnel bombing fix, but when spammed and combined with Rippers you can straight tech to a Fex (assuming you have a VC HT).

Lictor: Nothing noticeably wrong, but facing Lictor spam (so many fucking fleshhooks) is very, very annoying. >_<

Zoans: For the most part, their shields are fine (although I'm not sure if shielded Zoans can still survive an OB...). However, unlike other artillery units, Zoans don't: have friendly fire, have a set-up time, or have a firing arc. On top of that, they have an huge-ranged ability that can effectively destroy vehicles when considering the number of Nid AV soft counter and the Zoan's base damage itself. Zoans are very slow, but they don't need to unset-up to retreat/move.

Raveners: VC synapse (and I think other Warrior synapses) apply to them. 'Nuff said.

Carnifex: Most problems (cough, spam, cough) probably stem from the map control Nids get due to Rippers. Yet a fundamental problem is its Vehicle armor. You get anti-swarm (flamers) and anti-Heavy Infantry (plasma) weapons for an entire game, but once a Fex rolls out, you're fucked. You're going to have to invest in at least one form of AV but in most cases that's not enough due to the Fex's high HP and the Nids' melee tie-up. Vehicles are useless due to Zoans and meltas/haywires might work if they don't bug out and the Nids don't try to tie up your AV.
Overall, the Fex just doesn't fit with the rest of the Nid army. Give it more HP and Super Heavy Infantry armor (like the Avatar) so you can actually damage it with small arms fire.

Base turrets: 360 degree fire and constant knockdown?

[Sin Fang Bous]

Zoey's shield and blast need to be an upgrade. Something like 75/20 or 50/25 for the both of em.

[Buguba]

Hormagaunts: Fine in T1, but with Adrenal synapse they leap so far that they can catch up to retreating units. Not only is the pathing out of a HG swarm horrible, but even if you retreat at half health, you'll still die because of their freaking leap.

Termagaunts: Fine in T1, but the knockdown from the VC is too frequent. One squad can effectively keep any other squad out of combat, allowing Zoans, the VC Brood, or HG to do some real damage.

Please don't nerf gaunts. They've got it bad enough as it is. They're fragile as hell and lose DPS with every lost member. They need alll the ehlp they can get. It's only Warriors that are a bit OP. They're simply too affordable for their performance.

[BudgetMessiah]

I'm a bit confused, how is the leaping ability of gaunts a disadvantage? I've seen 24 of those lil buggers pile into a space that a single tac squad was wedged into. With AG, it seems like they stand on top of each other to get to a target.

If that's not an enormous advantage, I don't know what is.

And as far as their fragility, that's fine, they're pawns. They're cheap as free to reinforce, provided you're not using that Ravener fellow.

Here's the list of things I'd like to see fixed:

Zoanthropes can no longer enter Ravener Alpha tunnels
Zoanthrope damage vs infantry reduced and/or splash radius reduced
Ripper swarm capture rate reduced
Base turrets arc of fire fixed to 180 degrees
Base turrets do knockback or suppression, but not both.

You fix those, and then maybe we'll see something closer to balance.

[Buguba]

I'm a bit confused, how is the leaping ability of gaunts a disadvantage? I've seen 24 of those lil buggers pile into a space that a single tac squad was wedged into. With AG, it seems like they stand on top of each other to get to a target.

If that's not an enormous advantage, I don't know what is.


I don't think he was saying that it was a disadvantage, he was trying to say it was OP.

Guants may be cheap as free to reinforce, but they lose pretty much all utility once you hit T3. They just don't have the health or resiliance to maintain a battle-field presence. They may be nearly free, but they'll be spending most of their time in your base reinforcing.

It's no wonder people spam Warriors. At least Warriors don't fall over from a stiff breeze.

[FooF]

I don't think Gaunts lose utility in T3, they just require synapse all the more. They still get HP bonuses for going through the Tiers and if your Warriors are leveled up, whether its the first Horm squad you had at the beginning or a fresh squad, they all get the same vet bonus from the Warriors.

With vehicles all over the place, yes, Gaunts aren't worth much but against infantry, they're still very powerful with synapse.

As for the balance changes (my opinion):


Reduce Cost of Rippers back to 200 Req. Free reinforce, instant reinforce. They can no longer cap points.

Ravener Alpha tunnels have a 5 second transit time for all units. Tunnels are hard-capped at 6. If a Tunnel is lost it can be replaced but in the case of having 5 tunnels (so there is only one tunnel left), the RA can create an exit tunnel, but not an entrance. That is to say, the RA will not create a tunnel upon entering the ground, but will upon exit.

Adrenal Gland Warrior upgrade power cost increased to 40.

Warrior Squad power increased to 20.

I don't think much else is necessary. AG Warrior spam would be slowed down because of the additional power requirements, tunnels wouldn't be nearly as OP because you know where they all are and can choose to take them out or not and units are going to be teleporting all over the place. Finally, Rippers will be used to tie up squads and be excellent meat shields but nothing else. No more ninja capping with near-invulnerable units.

[Skarmory the PG]

My suggestion: Rippers can cap, but lose their uber-regen and uber-reduction when doing so.

[BudgetMessiah]

They may be nearly free, but they'll be spending most of their time in your base reinforcing.

Both the Lictor Alpha and the Hive Tyrant have abilities which allow gaunts and gants to be produced on the fly for free. The lictor alpha in particular ensures that you need spend very little time in your base reinforcing, and generally only falling back to restore HP and deny XP to your opponent. My experience with the hive tyrant is minimal, but I've seen replays of players making great use of the brood nest, picking up fast reinforcements just by walking by the thing.

The ravener alpha is the only hero that misses out on the fun. They kind of "need" rippers in order to get some measure of the cheap as free goodness. And its version is decidedly less good.

[Ac'sTvv]

Agreed with many of the things discussed here, but like many other stated I think the main problem is WB power cost, I think that the Tyranid player should be in a possition like the SM player when he decided to go ASM, at this time 400/15 cost don't make an impact in the eco of the Tyranid player.

More over the unit can be compare with a TAC squad in scalability during the game, so your investment is not lost, and that's why so many people spam them, this is also the reason many players skip T2 units or only goes one Zoan.

Considering also the low req cost to reinforce units allows the Nid player to get out a Carnifex relatively fast, and even if other race can out tech them to T3 there is no T3 unit that match a Carnifex with support.

From my point of view this can be solved in many ways, some of thoughs:
- WB power cost increase to 30, req cost decrese 350
- Rippers cannot retreat
- Fexes hard caped at 2, cooldown for the construction of the fexes to 30 sec, reduced turn speed, lower the damage of the Venom cannon to Vehicles or if you upgrade Venom to cannon the fex cannot engage in CC.

Other suggestions made along the post were also good and could fix the problem, but definetly Nid must be checked by relic, a quick look to the leaderboard can show the true about Nids...

[Skarmory the PG]

- Fexes hard caped at 2, cooldown for the construction of the fexes to 30 sec, reduced turn speed, lower the damage of the Venom cannon to Vehicles or if you upgrade Venom to cannon the fex cannot engage in CC.


Let's not go down that dark path again. Hard capping something just means it's not balanced on a one to one basis. The cooldown doesn't sound like a bad idea. Turn speed... I could get behind that, even though it hurts the way I use 'em. And I'm fairly sure upgrading to either gun hurts their CC - or at least it should.

Oh and, re: 'fex with Avatar armor? Hahaha no.

[Ruzdreg]

A fully biomorphed Carnifex teeters on the brink of being clased as a Gargantuan creature, they should be terrerfying beasts and so I don't want them in DoW2 to be made any easier to kill then they are now, not even to "effective weapons".


If spamming them is the problem then just have increasing costs and build times for them if you already have some preasent on the field.
The more you have, the more expensive and time consuming a new one becomes to build.

[Hirmetrium]

It amazes me people complain about "spamming Carnifexes". While they might provide a huge boost and have excellent damage, the fact is that they cost an absolute fortune to make and if your playing at all seriously its very difficult to get one on the field. Of all the 'nid problems people complain about Carnifexes - which, compared to the rest of the army, are perhaps the most balanced unit in there.

Its no different to spamming looted tanks or predators, which are both powerful ranged monsters. At least they can reverse.

[Nanolathe]

Not to mention move at about 3x the speed too... And how about shooting the enemy behind you even if you're pointing the "wrong" way. A Carnifex is a great big barn that everything can hit, and he can't run away without something covering his huge chitinous arse.

[Sin Fang Bous]

Yeah, you know, I really don't have an issue with the Carnifex.

Do Haywires still work on 'em? Haven't tried since the patch.

[Feyaden]

Ok, I looked at about 40 some odd videos of me playins as the three tyranid heroes, and me playing against the tyranid heroes.

My only real issue with the whole nid race has to be with the ripper problem. I don't care that they are hard to kill, I don't care that they reinforce for free. I care when the enemy sends one against you early game straight for your first point and uncaps it even if you try to kill the rippers. If you don't try and kill it to make it flee/die it goes on to uncap the rest of your points while the enemy army is conquering the map. As stated before once they get an economy early game they become a power house. So my only real suggestion is to make them cap the slowest out of everyone (the rippers at least), like the british in CoH.
__________________________
As for each of the other units:

Both guants are fine, even with upgrades. My biggest issue with people complaining about the nids is their lack of supression. The games I win are because I have supression. I know you are going ot say against a good player blah blah blah. Supression and flamers work well for me, and so do plasma and supression. To deal with shooty guants, pinning them down works well (since their range is same as HB). If you ever played against mech boy, hive tyrant, apothecary, and farseer you know that your gaunts can die fast by the hand of a single hero (mines, vials.., bioplasma, and the levitation/slow that the farseer does). If you have problems with gaunt swarms jumping at you maybe consider putting a heavy bolter BEHIND your tacts? I understand with ravenor and lictor most people prefer a second unit since they wont get fleshhooked tied up, but if you put them in buildings you are forcing your opponent to use his precious energy on spore mines instead of upgrades and teching up.
_______________________________________
Tier two:
We all know my opinion on lictors and zoanthropes:

Both are highly specialized units, both are glass cannons to be used behind your own fighting line. Both can be countered easy by a unit of jump units by all races. Apothecary, Force Commanders, and Techmarine can all ruin their day very easily. Also any of your army in h2h with a zoanthrope will win allowing you to hurt it without it shooting you, also when it tries to retreat it takes more damage from h2h than shooting. Both units are fine, when they are massed, you should have less to worry about in the main army formation which allows you to do real damage to them (if you are playing smart) and if you win the main line you can kill everythign behind it.
____________
Carnifexes and Ravenors.

Carnifexes cost a lot of money, getting one on the field means that my main army is suffering horrendous casualties. Other players forget, the reason nids have a huge economy, is to reinforce casualties (granted you have things like pheromone trail etc). If I have enough to get a carnifex, the game is either close or already won. IF you are bitching about more than one carnifexes, you have lost the game early. MY only issue with the carnifex is the BS variant that supresses whole armies and spawns spore mines. Both functions are fine (since it is an infantry killer at that point) but the spore mines should have a longer cool down time.
_____________________________

To be quite honest, I hate it when people bitch about the nids. You can kill them with all the races, granted they are a hard opponent to fight. If you really want I can type the 1000 things to do against nid strategy thread if you want, since I have seen the most damaging way to fight against nids. Also they fight in with the fluff hand in hand and I like the way relic implemented them. The only real changes the whole nid army needs: rippers have slower capping time (then they should theoretically be used for damage soaking, then all you babies will complaing that is broken), and the ravenor tunnels be slower in transit time (a function based on how many things are in the tunnel, I can imagine a gaunt running faster alone in tunnel than say 4 units of gaunts), and MAYBE a bigger cool down time on carnifex.

[Hirmetrium]

if anything, barbed carnifex is the best to fight against because it deals the least damage of all the Carnifex variants, but spawns a crazy powerful unit.

[Hunlow]

wow, another "ZOMG every nid is OPed" thread...

@ hellic

Lictor Alpha: Pheromones can reinforce anything (even none-Nids) and reinforce Gaunts/Rippers faster than you can kill them...
The range of Scything Talons is huge (a whole screen of units can literally be suppressed). Yet the LA is really too bugged for many people to use him.

Kinda flawed reasoning there. All other respawn units/points work no matter the race why make that one diffrent?
Scything Talons only work when he is infiltrated so get a unit that detects. Yea it really is that easy.


Hormagaunts: Fine in T1, but with Adrenal synapse they leap so far that they can catch up to retreating units. Not only is the pathing out of a HG swarm horrible, but even if you retreat at half health, you'll still die because of their freaking leap.

Dont ASM have that little hop that allows them to keep up with retreating troops? I know that slugga boys similarly can chase after retreating units and cause damage why doesnt that bother you as well?


Termagaunts: Fine in T1, but the knockdown from the VC is too frequent. One squad can effectively keep any other squad out of combat, allowing Zoans, the VC Brood, or HG to do some real damage.

So if that is OPed then scout shotguns must be super ODed because they knock down a whole squad AND supress...



Base turrets: 360 degree fire and constant knockdown?

Give all turrents 360. Done.

@ ESRFooF


I don't think Gaunts lose utility in T3, they just require synapse all the more. They still get HP bonuses for going through the Tiers and if your Warriors are leveled up, whether its the first Horm squad you had at the beginning or a fresh squad, they all get the same vet bonus from the Warriors.

On paper they sound like they would be viable but in practice they are not, they cant hold up. They get gibbed so quick you have to retreat most times before they even get into battle.


I don't think much else is necessary. AG Warrior spam would be slowed down because of the additional power requirements

Are you saying that even after the nerf you are still having AG Warrior spam problem? I havent seen more than 3 used in one match since the patch. Its no longer effective so it doesnt make much sense wasting rec on AG Warriors. There are easy counters for them.

I'm with Fayden on the nids. Learn their strengths and weaknesses and dont just use the same tactics every time its not that tough.

[Schlamiel]

Since you guys have the nids all figured out, post your ûber strategies, and some replays of you guys beating good nidplayers with sm, orks and eldar.

It could also be that since so many people find severeal Nid units and abilities to be OP´ed, that they in reality are very Op´ed. Could it be that simple? could Relic really have made such a huge mistake? They did it with the Necs and have now done it with Nids again. It reallly is that simple.

Post your wining strategies and replays, where you win playing anything else than Nids yourself. I will be happy to learn from you.

[FooF]

I still see RA with 3 AG warriors popping out of tunnels, yes. It's still effective because of the constant knockdown. It doesn't kill as fast but it still kills plenty effectively.

One thing about Gaunts: assuming you keep the entire squad alive, it probably isn't terribly unreasonable to have 4-5 squads of them (especially "Without Number"). With leveled Warriors, especially Barbed Strangler for the HP boost, you can have Horms running around with 1000+ HP. VC and AG just add to damage and effectiveness. It's a massive blob of units that are susceptible to AoE and suppression, yes, but with a little support from a Zoan, Lictor, or Ravener brood, you can take out the suppression teams and vehicles without much trouble. Also, never forget they can be reinforced for free with the HT and LA.

My balance suggestions were minor and I think they would solve a lot of the problems. You don't need sweeping changes, just nudges that changes the meta-game. I don't feel every Nid unit is overpowered. I don't think any of them are underpowered for cost and their ease of reinforcement (free in the case of Pheremone cloud and brood nest).

[Octopus Rex]

@OP - I would totally agree with increasing power in some way, after about two games playing nids I realised that I always had absolutely plenty power, there's almost no upgrades to purchase, no leaders at all and almost no power hungry squads. This jumps out at me as needing fixing regardless of the state of play really - why have 2 resources if you hardly need one of them? I think many problems stem from this too - power is supposed to be one of the limiting factors with higher tier units, but it simply isn't, power just isn't a problem with fexes, requisition is. I think sorting this out would be quite a strong change and would definitely need some tweaking along the way.

So I would agree that something has to cost more power, but I'm not too sure just what. I would suggest the power costs for zoeys, fexes and raveners go up, but I have a nasty feeling that people will start banging on about potency for cost across the races and we'll get in a right mess. The upgrades will suffer the same problem I suppose though, and it's better than nothing.

[klez]

One thing that really stick out to me that many people don't mention is the early map advantage Tyranid offers. Thing is tyranid is too good (and almost broken imo) when it comes to map control early game if the player is decent. Look at the advantages:

-have ways to counter suppression @ the START for EVERY hero (immunity for Tyrant , tunnels for Ravener , Infiltrate and Flesh Hooks for Lictor) so you can't lock down an area against the Tyranids.

-cheap grunts and fastest speed to act AND react to counters and ensure number superiority (especially against SM when scout is useless for combat without upgrades and SM needs 500 req for a decent troop). That means they can always out-squad you.

-fastest speed to compliant melee to neutralize range attack: remember no aoe and knock back before upgrades which needs power, and they always have more squad than you. (except Tyrant but you get rippers for Tyrant anyways)

-rippers, rippers, rippers. Numberous and resistance to damage means you can never wipe them out if the player is half awake. And they reinforce for free!

All that in exchange for poor building damage and poor gen killing. But when you have 2/3 of the map and secure your own gen, why bother killing their gen? Just tech to tier 2 for even better grunts! (not just Synapse but also universal upgrade to grunts) You got more squads, more troops, more resources, everything after tier 2 is a cakewalk! Multiple Carnifexes is just the icing on the cake once you have the econ advantage.

[Schlamiel]

Rippers and RA tunnels are without a doubt the biggest problem, they give free map control. I will never understand how the hell a balance issues like that slipped thru the cracks.

Before people start saying grenades, flamers and stuff like that works, look at the price cost involved, and it wont kill the rippers just force a retreat after decap. And tunnels are building armor.

Rippers and RA tunnels are so over the top OP´ed its laughable, and it gives the Nids the ability to gain map control, and outsquad, out tech and field all the rest of the imba they got stored, and thats a lot.

A short look at Hirmetriums replays shows the ripper problems very clearly.

[hellic]

wow, another "ZOMG every nid is OPed" thread...

@ hellic

Kinda flawed reasoning there. All other respawn units/points work no matter the race why make that one diffrent?
Scything Talons only work when he is infiltrated so get a unit that detects. Yea it really is that easy.

Dont ASM have that little hop that allows them to keep up with retreating troops? I know that slugga boys similarly can chase after retreating units and cause damage why doesnt that bother you as well?

So if that is OPed then scout shotguns must be super ODed because they knock down a whole squad AND supress...

Give all turrents 360. Done.
Read the tooltip for the Pheromone wargear.

Allows Tyranid units to reinforce around the pheromone cloud.

I agree the Lictor can be countered, but why the hell is the suppression radius of the claws so large? A whole screen full of units? It's like saying Mekboy mines can be countered by detectors. They can, but that doesn't give an excuse for 1 second arming or, in this case, the huge range of the claws.

ASM do have a hop (but Sluggas don't and can't catch up to retreating units unless you use copious amounts of WAAAGH). I'm not saying the hop is a good idea (no unit should be able to chase down retreating squads), but there are some key differences between ASM and Adrenal HG. First, you can easily get two or even three squads of HG to chase down a squad and guarantee a kill. Three squads of ASM are hell of a lot more expensive. Second, the sheer number of gaunts in a squad will often clog a retreating squad's pathing, resulting in a stuck unit and free kills. ASM don't have the numbers to do this as often. Lastly, ASM hops and HG leaps are comparable, but I don't think we have the damage, frequency, or speed data to quantitatively compare them. I think HGs leap faster and have much a much higher chance of leaping than ASM. Oh, and Space Marines don't have heroes who can flesh hook retreating units or have (multiple!) wargear that causes retreating units to slow down (though I'll grant you the Master-Crafted Bolter is similar to flesh hook).

Count the number of members in a Scout squad and the number of members in a Termagaunt squad and tell me which one is more likely to constantly keep an entire enemy squad (squad, not single hero) on the ground.

As for "turrents", what you suggest is great. Actually making changes. Yup. Because you admit Hive Nodes are OP, yes? Oh, you still didn't address the constant knockdown part.

Fact: An Tyranid player and an equally skilled player of another race face off. The Tyranids will always win.

Don't give me that l2p bullshit. I know how to counter Nids (and I play them myself too), but you can't deny the counters require so much more skill than what a Nid does so you would have to completely outplay a Nid in order to win.

[Frigidair44]

OK. I'm an Ork. I spend 270 on a squad of sluggas and cap my nearest base point. I see rippers that the enemy spent 240 req on. I fend them off my point, before the completely de-cap and cap it. They go back to the base and reinforce for free.

I recap my point in the meantime (waisting critical early game time). And try to gain some map control. The ripper squad comes back, and de-caps my point again. I go back, and this time invest in flamers to fend them off. They back off, I kill a few more, but they de-cap my point again. I spend more time trying to re-cap that point.

I spent 310 req, 20 power, and still can't kill off a unit that is cheaper then mine out of the box, and has virtually no penalty for being damaged, and is almost indestructible. While I'm dealing with that one point harassment, the enemy has almost compete map control besides for a few units my boys managed to capture.

And thats from just some ripper harass. There is a problem when that is the case.

If anybody cannot see the inherent problems with a unit when there is almost NO penalty for its death other then a quick retreat, followed by a pound of the reinforce button to get the squad back out there seconds later to do the same thing. And thats just ripper's imbalance.

The race has balancing issues across the board. The AG nerf was a good start, but the nids are far from being knocked off the top of the tier.

[Ac'sTvv]

That's why a suggest that rippers cannot retreat, I think this would not required a big patch to archive and is a good start to let the nid player some micro at the begining of the match, if he wants reinforce for free then send them manually to base at slow speed, normally a need player will leave the rippers there until they decap the point despite of the loses the squad is having because as soon as is decap he Hit X and extra speed a DR to the rippers, if you eliminate that they will be more carefull.

At least that is my thought, because then again I think one of the main problems right now are the rippers.

[alisbin]

heres my 2c on fixing nids, both what to do and what it will accomplish.
fix 1: remove ripper regeneration, slightly increase their XP and ZEQ worth.
effect: killing rippers becomes possible and worth the effort, without removing their swarmy quality.

fix 2: make AG and VC warriors do almost exclusively vehicle & building damage.
effect: warrior spam will become a thing of the past and they will COMPLIMENT instead of override the gaunts that they they travel with. againt keeping the swarmy quality.

fix 3: make RA tunnels cost ZEQ (think like waaagh, small amounts per use, but adds up) along with the timer and give them a low health degeneration so the tunnel network needs to be kept up or it dies/"collapses" over time. give units in tunnels a small travel time (think IG tunnel networks from DOW).
effect: RA can still make use of massive mobility, but has to be a little more cautious in using it, must work to keep the tunnel network up and requires better timing in its use (IE micro increased).

can't speak on other problems since i haven't dealt with them enough yet.

[MonMalthias]

Make Zoanthropes deal friendly fire damage. No other ordnance weapon in the game has this massive advantage. Fire prism, plasma devs, nades, whatever all do friendly fire damage and knockdown. Why is the Zoey exempt? It adds to the imba of the Zoey (no setup time, no firing arc, force field to TRIPLE health). Who gives a damn about its slow speed when its range is massive and it can fire and move? Even microed D-cannons can easily be countered compared to Zoeys. Add to the fact that the Zoey can play whack a mole with Ravener tunnels with NO penalty and you have something that is essentially and Ork and Eldar vaporiser. Only ASMs (Stormboyz? PAH!) are a viable counter.

Ravener tunnels costing ZEQ would make a world of difference, I think. There is almost no other reason for the Nid player to use Zeal other than Tyranoformation. I don't know about you, but fewer things are more OP than being able to teleport your warrior mass with unlimited range and for no penalty every 100 seconds.

You can even escape back into the tunnel if things go awry. WSE's mass teleport will get you into a fight, but if the shit hits the fan, spamming x is the only way back out. Ravener can just move right back into the tunnel and pop up back at his base for the win. Adding a re-garrison timer into the tunnel exits would also help reduce the imba, so you don't have whack a mole Zoey or insta escape.

Am I the only one who thinks that Lictors (not the alpha) should have EITHER assault jump OR flesh hooks as a wargear option costing power? Lictors don't have a very high pop cap cost and thanks to the imba Nid economy (cheap-to-free reinforce, no power costs) having 2-3 out on the field even in 1v1s is very very easy.

They have the utility and almost the same durability of the LA commander, so why only have the abilities of the HT or RA when you can have a mini-LA with you as well? Increasing their cost through wargear options reduces their viability for fielding multiple Lictors to finish off retreating squads.

Nids as of now have way too many options, all of them way too viable in all levels of play. They're very macro friendly (Mass a blob with synergistic counters and attack move) and their abilities come too cheap for too little power. No other race has the ability to hard counter heavy weapons for all three commanders. (HT suppression resist, LA assault jump, RA imba tunnel). Their entire faction means that virtually any BO and virtually any commander is viable against any other faction, commander and BO. That is a massive advantage. Other races like Orks and Eldar are railroaded into WS rush or Nobz and Looted Tank spam but only Nids can spam a few synergistic units and still have a decent chance of winning.

The solution is to nerf them until other races using whatever they want have a decent chance to win (not too much until Nids have no chance, duh), or to buff all the other races' options to be more viable against nids. Their imba comes from the fact that you need less skill to make a better player sweat, and their vast array of viable options and counters. Nids can't be railroaded, and this is why they are over represented in the top 100 in the leaderboards.

[Skarmory the PG]

Here's a thought. Tunneling costs an amount of ZEQ based on current # of tunnels around. First one's free, each next one costs some amount that adds up.

[The Voltr0n]

Here's a thought. Tunneling costs an amount of ZEQ based on current # of tunnels around. First one's free, each next one costs some amount that adds up.

don't know if it will prevent over use of tunnels though, i mean pop cap will because it might stop them from getting another worrior broode squad... but they get global resources easily ZEQ and or Biomass unless they make them as expensive as the eldar web ways xD

[Skyline Pete]

I still don't get why the WSE has to stand around with a huge glowing blue circle for 5 seconds before teleporting somewhere, which as mentioned above, he can't then instant tele back out with his army.

While the Rav can instantly tele across a far greater distance with his whole army instantly popping up under anything and then being able to just pop back into the same hole if things go awry.

And rippers make me rage until I flame them and watch them pretty much disintegrate.

[Hirmetrium]

How about Warriors costing 30 power to buy a squad then? Their reinforcement cost will increase in proporition to that, meaning that losing a warrior is a bit more painful. The Nid power concerns are addressed, which prevents higher tier units getting spammed on top of warriors.

[MonMalthias]

Vanilla Warriors aren't really all that much of a threat. AG warriors, though nerfed in damage, still have a large chance of knock back. Hell, the initial charge of AGWB knocks back an entire squad of sluggas. This comes free of energy and is easily spammable - get 2 AGWB to charge, one after the other as the target gets back up - you can keep them grounded for at least 10 seconds. Thats 3-5 seconds of free DPS without taking damage in return.

I would support a cost increase to 20-25 power not 30. 30 power is the same amount as Rangers, and you rarely see Rangers in T1 as a result. It's the knockdown chance of AG that needs to be nerfed. The damage nerf to AG Warriors was almost too much IMO, and the only reason they are still feared is because of the free DPS thanks to the knockdown. Toning down knockdown for a slight buff in damage vs infantry ONLY would be good. Their courage may also need looking at, although without Ravener tunneling, they're suppressible enough (barely).

[Gen_Khan]

Yeah, you know, I really don't have an issue with the Carnifex.

Do Haywires still work on 'em? Haven't tried since the patch.

Yes

[BudgetMessiah]

don't know if it will prevent over use of tunnels though, i mean pop cap will because it might stop them from getting another worrior broode squad...

Will it really? Because when I play tyranids, I've really gotta try to hit that pop cap. And I play a "herd" kind of nid, lots and lots of guys, not a small high damage assault force geared towards popping up out of tunnels.

I think a Biomass cost is the better idea for the tunnels. As it is right now, the ravener alpha actually earns biomass for his army by spamming tunnels. If you put a few in places that aren't ideal, who gives a flip? They get destroyed, hopefully costing the enemy some time or attention, and the Ravener Alpha's still gets paid, so he don't mind losing one of the redundancies. The tunnel he's actually using is off to the corner in the fog, anyway.


How about Warriors costing 30 power to buy a squad then?

Sure thing, so long as their upgrades are all decreased and they cost only 300 req to make up for my having to build extra extra generators over every other race. Sounds dandy.

[Hirmetrium]

Vanilla Warriors aren't really all that much of a threat. AG warriors, though nerfed in damage, still have a large chance of knock back. Hell, the initial charge of AGWB knocks back an entire squad of sluggas. This comes free of energy and is easily spammable - get 2 AGWB to charge, one after the other as the target gets back up - you can keep them grounded for at least 10 seconds. Thats 3-5 seconds of free DPS without taking damage in return.

I would support a cost increase to 20-25 power not 30. 30 power is the same amount as Rangers, and you rarely see Rangers in T1 as a result. It's the knockdown chance of AG that needs to be nerfed. The damage nerf to AG Warriors was almost too much IMO, and the only reason they are still feared is because of the free DPS thanks to the knockdown. Toning down knockdown for a slight buff in damage vs infantry ONLY would be good. Their courage may also need looking at, although without Ravener tunneling, they're suppressible enough (barely).

Actually, vanilla warriors are the ones with knockback.

Why should the upgrade costs be reduced? I see no reason. Their already some of the cheapest weapon upgrades in the game.

[hellic]

Vanilla warriors have incredible knockdown, Heavy Infantry armor, and 400 (!!) courage. All in T1, for a mere 400 req and 15 power (where else is your first 15 power going to go?).

[ErichTheGraham]

I do not feel that the tyranids are overpowered. There, I said it. I do feel that certain units and abilities need some tweaking to work more as intended. The tunnels take a long time for certain races to deal with. The eldar have no problems because of nades that you will be needing against nids anyway. The orks have stikkbommaz, which kind of blows because the nades cost a lot of zeq to destroy a free building, but they also have powerclaw warboss and other counters once they are past t1. Actually, I think the key is that they are mostly a problem in t1 when buildings are hard to destroy. It is kind of disturbing that you pretty much have to pay attention to them because otherwise you are leaving yourself vulnerable, but that is the way the RA is meant to play. I don't really have that much of a problem with it. Keep in mind that the cooldown on that ability is really long, so it isn't like the RA can just spam them everywhere to replace lost tunnels. I'd say reducing their health a little would be acceptable, but I honestly don't care if they don't address it at all.

I find the lictor free reinforce ability a little odd on a unit that is supposed to specialize in stealth, but that isn't an issue in itself. I haven't had it used on me yet so I couldn't say how much it hurts, but I HAVE tried using it against other nids and it has backfired from time to time. I'm not sure how they countered me, but I am sure that it gave me pause in thinking it was OP.

THERE IS ONE ISSUE I HAVE WITH TYRANIDS. This issue ONLY came up in ONE game that I played against all three tyran heroes. There were A LOT of horms with AG Warriors chasing everything down. I was sending in full health squads and retreating them BEFORE THEY GOT ATTACKED and they still died. Like I said, this only really bothered me in one game, but it was enough for me to keep my eyes open on this issue. I would say that it is probably a good idea to reduce their leap range or increase cooldown to keep this from happening as much. They are the best unit in the game for chasing down squads and killing them.

EDIT: On the other hand, I have noticed when I play as them that by the end of the game I am floating power more than any other race. I will pay attention when playing as them whether I am having any trouble getting power. This could pose potential problems if it is viable for nid players to ignore power for the most part. I'll investigate strategies where the nid player doesn't have to work for as much power and instead just caps req. Anyone else is welcome to join me and see what they find.

[cyborgZero]

Add to this discussion the insanely powerful ravaner hero who begins with as much HP as a Force commander, and his wargear allows him to shred any tier 1 units.

Things to be fixed:
1. Tunnels - free and fast map mobility for the whole army, zoans hide out, and time consuming for the opponent when considering all the time spend destroying them.

2. Rippers - they are supposed to be a suppression weapon counter when under synapse. They are free and fast to reinforce. They have no early hard counter which allows them to ravage the opponent's economy.

3. The speed bonus of synapse to gaunts that allows them to catch up to retreating units and run face forward into a suppression weapon and engage it before even being suppressed.

4. Ravaner alpha - Begins with as much HP as a Force commander, while he is supposed to be a support hero. His wargear is too good, allows his to counter all and eliminates his weaknesses (melee). He can decimate 3 sluggas in meree seconds with toxic miasma and corrosive talons.

5. Lictor alpha - His suppression attack should be directed towards only one squad which he attacks. Flesh hook damage needs to be reduced on the normal lictors.

6. Zoans - 12 stun to vehicles is an instant kill. Being a counter for everything is a little too much when considering the range mobility and its health regeneration aura.

7. Carnifex charge and bio-blast
The carnifex charge occurs too rapidly to allow for any maneuverability, and it will kill any tier 1 units and severely damage only vehicles or heavy infantry in its way + knock back. I mean even the avatar has some insane abilities but you get a warning to allow you to react. Same goes for the bio-blast, why does the looted tank need to show a warning when it will shot a blast shot or even have to change its position to be able to fire it.

Possible fixes :

1. Tunnels
a) Only rippers, gaunts, and termogaunts can use them, and ravaner cannot travel through them once built.
b) Ravaner need 10 seconds (this way it conpensates for the enemy's wasted time trying to destroy the tunnel) to construct the tunnels (uses energy), and he will have to construct them one by one, rather than having 2 tunnels for one combo. Having the ravaner construct the tunnel will make it difficult to appear behind the enemy with everything and rape. For this tunnel fix, the spore mines and zoans not allowed in the tunnels.


2. Rippers
a) make them weaker, slower reinforcement and make it cost 7 requisition.
b) make them weaker, slower capping and slow reinforcement.

3. gaunt speed under synapse
a) reduce the speed allowing retreating units running at full speed to escape, and decrease the suppression resistance to allow suppression weapon to remain viable.

4. Ravaner alpha
a) decrease his HP and certain of his wargear's effectiveness such as toxic miasma and corrosive talons.

5. Lictor alpha
a) Only the squad attack would get suppressed with hat certain wargear, rather than the whole army getting knocked back and suppressed.
b) Flesh hook damage decreased on normal lictors.

6. Zoans
a) Stun reduced to 8 seconds and reduce its damage versus infantry since it causes no friendly fire.

7. Carnifex charge and bio-blast
a) Both these abilities need some sort of signal or animation with a slight delay to indicate to the opposing player that either a charge is about to occur or the carnifex will spit his bio-blast. The avatar has a paint signal and the looted tank has a paint signal and delay (longer if the tank is pointed away from the direction of the blast) for the blast shot.

These are just opinion based suggestions, I hope I haven't over-nerfed the tyranids as I tried to make the units still viable but not over the top.

[Skarmory the PG]

1. Tunnels
a) Only rippers, gaunts, and termogaunts can use them, and ravaner cannot travel through them once built.
b) Ravaner need 10 seconds (this way it conpensates for the enemy's wasted time trying to destroy the tunnel) to construct the tunnels (uses energy), and he will have to construct them one by one, rather than having 2 tunnels for one combo. Having the ravaner construct the tunnel will make it difficult to appear behind the enemy with everything and rape. For this tunnel fix, the spore mines and zoans not allowed in the tunnels.


No. This completely fails to address the problem while nerfing any usefullness the tunneling can have.


7. Carnifex charge and bio-blast
a) Both these abilities need some sort of signal or animation with a slight delay to indicate to the opposing player that either a charge is about to occur or the carnifex will spit his bio-blast. The avatar has a paint signal and the looted tank has a paint signal and delay (longer if the tank is pointed away from the direction of the blast) for the blast shot.

Both those abilities are also much more potent.

[cyborgZero]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborgZero
1. Tunnels
a) Only rippers, gaunts, and termogaunts can use them, and ravaner cannot travel through them once built.
b) Ravaner need 10 seconds (this way it conpensates for the enemy's wasted time trying to destroy the tunnel) to construct the tunnels (uses energy), and he will have to construct them one by one, rather than having 2 tunnels for one combo. Having the ravaner construct the tunnel will make it difficult to appear behind the enemy with everything and rape. For this tunnel fix, the spore mines and zoans not allowed in the tunnels.


No. This completely fails to address the problem while nerfing any usefullness the tunneling can have.

Why would fix number two make the tunnels useless? The sole purpose of tunnels are transportation, which would not be affected. The only thing it will change is that it will avoid the instant teleport of the ravaner/blob in a flash of an eye.

Especially fix (b) seems the most fair since the time to build the tunnel = time/effort destroying it. The ravaner doesn't have trouble sneaking around the map burrowed or with Strengthened Sinew (increases movement speed by 40%), he doesn't solely rely on tunnels to move around. Fix (b) you will still be able to move the blob as you wish, while you wouldn't be able to pop 2 tunnels every couple of seconds.

I would still like to see other point of view's around this suggestion before rejecting it.

[Skarmory the PG]

You'll note that the Ravener Alpha's ability to rapidly burrow a swarm into position is exactly one of the reasons to play it. The main complaint about its unabalancedness stems not from it, but from the fact the tunnels persist and offer excellent later maneuvreability, plus whack a zoan.

[cyborgZero]

I still think your comment is full of paradox, as the ability to burrow a swarm and have it pop out in the enemy's face is exactly what excellent maneuverability, which you describe as unbalanced . The persistence of the tunnels isn't the main issue as the deadliest tunnels are those freshly made by the ravaner into the weak spot of the enemy, as not only will it transport the ravaner, but it will hold 4 more nid units that immediately emerge to create havoc.

Although we might be having a little miss communication, but I think we have the same perspective. I might just have a harsher point of view towards the method in which this ability could become balanced.

All I have to say is that all we can do now is wait for the patch and see what relic has decided upon this subject.

[Skarmory the PG]

No, what I said is the problem is later maneuvreability. Not the initial swarmstrike, which is no different than what the WSE can pull off. The ability to move his army behind enemy lines, something a savvy(sp?) enemy can and should prepare for, is what I believe to be the intended use.

The problem is that, with an extensive tunnel system the Ravener player (like me) can move his swarm from one end of the battlefield to another with no appreciable cost, as well as play a game of whack a zoanathrope.

[Akagi_Ryu]

If the problem is later maneuvreability, then why not limit the amount of possible tunnels to 3 on map? When you create a 4th tunnel the 1st one you created will dissapear and so on and so on.

Also, I would propose a few seconds of lag between issuing the command and units exiting the tunnels, preferably with a warning, so that oponents have time to react to the threat.

[Skarmory the PG]

I kinda like the warning idea. It rewards a careful player and forces a Ravener player (like me) to be careful about something else beside mines when exiting.

As for the hard cap: The problem isn't the maneuvreability itself. It's the without cost part.

[endikux]

Ravener tunnel construction. I really like the sound of that.

Ravener has to contruct tunnels like building a turret.
- unless ravener has the burrow ability in which case he still has to construct the tunnels over time BUT he can do so while burrowed underground.

If you gave the ravener a a build time just as long as the turrets then I would say you could leave unlimited tunnels and still have the same basic tunneling system as it is now. Allow the same united to be able to enter and use tunnels, basically all tyranid infantry.

However I would also add in the travel time instead of instant teleportation. Just have all units traveling in the tunnel use the same burrowing mechanic. This means they are able to be spoted by special units who can see infiltration. Just as you see raveners burrowing under the earth with these units now you would see the warriors and gaunts going underground on their way to a tunnel exit somewhere else.

If you combine travel time via burrowing from one tunnel entrance to the next along with a contruction time to build the tunnels then the ravener is far more in line with the other builders. The tunnels then become a far more balanced utility which are still very helpful. Allowing the ravener who gets the burrow ability to still "pop out" a tunnel behind the scenes would still be a powerful strategy but would now require some upgrade cost and still some build time. This would retain the ravener's unique tunnels system which makes him cool while removing his mega-op nonsense of instant easy to build wtfpwn tunnels that immediatly spew fourth death and allow instant teleportation and map control. People would have time to spot and destroy a tunnel before units might get there (force them to return to their original hole maybe) and spot incoming burrowing armies with their spotters.

[BudgetMessiah]

Lictor alpha - His suppression attack should be directed towards only one squad which he attacks. Flesh hook damage needs to be reduced on the normal lictors.


That's not necessary. All other suppression works in an area. Why gimp the Lictor Alpha's suppression and make it different and worse than any other unit's when it costs power and is commander wargear? Weapon teams and devastators don't cost power, and suppress in an area. It takes micromanagement to use this gear properly, and it has a simple counter : detection.

Maybe it would be more fair if he only knocked back the squad he attacks, and his suppression works as it is now. But the whole point behind this wargear is that it discourages blobs of units. Why make it completely worthless in its intended role?

As far as the ravener tunnels, I think a slight delay in his exiting the second tunnel with some (brief) advance warning would be fair, considering how much punishment can come out of a tunnel. Either that or have an exit delay for units coming out of a tunnel, as is the case with other transports. Both would be overkill, and this "10 seconds till a tunnel is complete + bells and whistles to indicate an attack is happening" is making the unit useless, and hand-holding for other races.

Tunnels can be beaten as they are right now, but it's very difficult, arguably too difficult relative to how easy the attack is to pull off. Level the field a bit, but don't raze the ability completely.

[Al_Ka_Pwn]

I'm in favor of having the zoanthrope being the only unit that offers suppression synapse, and having the other ones just give dmg or health for synapse

[mccrorie]

No, what I said is the problem is later maneuvreability. Not the initial swarmstrike, which is no different than what the WSE can pull off.

I hate when these abilities are used in the same breath. The WSE has a teleport ability. The RA essentially makes webgates. The result is very different. In practice the RA can scout ahead and then do an initial 'swarmstrike' with units that are still in his HQ.

[Skarmory the PG]

Assuming, of course, the tunnel exit hasn't been mined/grenaded/vialed/plasmadevved in the meanwhile.

'course, if the exit was plasmadevved in the meanwhile, it's the ravener's fault anyway.

[cyborgZero]

What?

[BudgetMessiah]

Assuming, of course, the tunnel exit hasn't been mined/grenaded/vialed/plasmadevved in the meanwhile.

Unless you place the tunnel exit in the midst of an enemy army, the odds of this happening before you can effectively deploy are close to 0.

If the tyranid player can avoid these counters by virtue of his not being a complete idiot, then it's not valid to say that these things counter the tunnel. They don't. They counter stupid.