PE Vet: Def. or Off.?

[TheGreek]

I'm just learning how to play PE, and I'm rather clueless on which vet to pick in which order. I remember reading that the defensive is more valuable, but does that mean I should go for all three defensive vets? Are some units better suited with offensive vets? When I've got PG blobs I tend to mix it up so that some units can take damage and other can dish it out. Is this a good idea?

[kommodore]

It depends on the unit,

non-direct fire units: mortar ht, hummel offensive vet
PGs: MP44 defensive, G43 offensive, Shreck offensive, Falls offensive, LGF defensive
PZ4, Hetzer, Jadg, Panther: defensive, Wirbel offensive, 88/FlakV offensive
Either: INFHT, AC, SC
You dont get a choice: Ketten, Berge, MUNIHT/Vampire

Most of these cases triple offensive/defensive respectively is best. And this is just my general opinion some people like mixing or vet the other way around.

[sighman]

For PE vehicles, I wouldn't go triple defensive, because the second and third defensive levels of vet are less then the first defensive vet modifiers. I would usually go vet 1 def, vet 2 + 3 offensive. Only exception of course, is AC as it already has awesome offensive output but requires as much defensive buffs as it can get.

[kommodore]

Bonus is stackable.

Maximum 3
Received Accuracy 0.9 (0.95)
Maximum Speed 1.15 (1.05)
Maximum Health 1.15
Received Damage 0.9 (0.95)


** Data in ( ) is only available when you reach level 2 and 3 defensive. COH stats

Vet 3 defensive PE tanks are practically unkillable, 1 + 2 offensive is nice, but you really dont need more penetration/accuracy on units that are already dedicated role, the jadg always penetrates anyways, etc. It may be reduced but by no means isn't worth it at vet 2-3.

[Road-kill]

A 3 vet attack PIV is a monster when it's in 'lockdown' to boost it's rof. I don't know what to get for the AT halftrack though... I kinda lean towards defensive due to the rubbish damage and all.

Infantry with defensive (especially shreks) can be very handy because it means it will usually take something special to kill them.

[sturmtruppe]

always choose defensive at level 1 for vehicles, as it provides more top speed & health than level 2 and 3 defensive.

[troglodytejb]

Kommodore pretty much nailed it (those suggestions make sense for a lot of subtle reasons) but it's important to note that if you're in trouble, defensive vet is always an option even on guys that would normally take offensive vet. For example, put your first level in offensive on a schreck squad, and then decide if you want offensive or defensive based on the circumstances for the second rank.

Offensive vet is FAR better for slow-firing, inaccurate weapons than it is for faster firing weapons. It's a total waste on MP44 PGrens; but it's practically a necessity on panzerschrecks.

[xIke]

Depends on the role... A falls squad I'm setting up for an ambush will be offensive vet so it frequently wipes out a whole squad before my opponent has a chance to look over and see what happened. Schreck and MP44 squads usually get defensive vet because their damage output is fine already- I need them to be survivable against things they may not be able to kill themselves.

[German Steel!]

G43 - Offensive
MP44 - Defensive
Luftwaffe - Offensive
Falls - Offensive

SC - Offensive
Marder - Defensive
Hetzer - lvl 1 Defensive and the rest Offensive
Wirbel - Offensive
JP - Defensive
AC - Offensive
ATHT - lvl 1 Defensive and the rest Offensive
PIV - Defensive

[Brando]

Due to MP costs I usually go defensive on my squads, especially Shrek squads due to the lower suppression value when you're having them run up to something to kill before it can get away.

[Kosake]

Luftwaffe troops: 2x Defensive minimum. They tend to die very quickly and really need the deff buffs, while even with some picked up weapons their combat worth is rather small.
Sadly enough, FSJs die just as fast as LW troops, so I'd go for at least two deff upgrades here as well. With FG42 they rape inf anyway so just give them more survivability.

Tanks in general: Deff bonus boosts their speed as well. So things like AT-HT are well helped with a speed boost. Even with Vet3 Offensive they wont do damage angainst tanks. But its nice to be able to catch that escaping M8, M10 or whatever. And every additional Bazooka round that missed or got somehow deflected is allways worth it.

Jagdpanthers have enough offensive capabilities. You dont need them to kill an enemy tank in 2,9 instead of 3 shots. But with the HP and speed boost they rock the shit out of anything. So tripple Deff is my vote here.
With PzIV and Hetzers I'd go for dual Deff and a single Offensive comming last if the tank lives that long.

Deff upgrades on Shrecks and StG44s are a must since they storm enemy emplacements and troop concentrations. G43s tend to stay back, but at least one lvl on deff will pay off most of the time.

Wirbelwinds die way too fast, this seems to be the main problem with Luftwaffe Tree. So I'd suggest Deff here as well. They do enough damage - if they just live long enough. Even with huge damage output you wont supress fired up Rangers, but with deff buffs you may live long enough to survive the fifth zook fired at you.

Infantry Halftracks - all defensive.
Mortars on the other hand only offensive. If they get caught they are screwed anyways, nothing will save them. But faster rate of fire is nice ^^

Marders - both upgrades go. Making them faster sometimes helps and with the damage nerf in 2.4 more damage output is not wasted on them either. I'd suggest to mix.

[TheGreek]

Another related question on vetting.


** Data in ( ) is only available when you reach level 2 and 3 defensive.
Does this mean that if I get an offensive vet and then a defensive vet that my units get the secondary def bonus?

[YurdleTheTurtle]

@TheGreek: Yes. This means getting defensive veterancy once on the first level yields slightly better bonuses than getting defensive veterancy once on the 2nd/3rd level.

[Kosake]

I think it is about stacking bonuses. So first time you chose defensive you get the full amount and if you go for offensive on vet 2 you still get the full amount. but whatever you do, you get only the reduced bonus on vet3.

So tripple deff or tripple off is rarely the optimum. at least one of the other upgrades makes sense in most cases. Exceptions being Jagdpanther, AT-HT, Inf HT and Mortar HT. The first three need deff only, the mortar off only.

[sturmtruppe]

Should also metion that 88mm and flak 38 should be all offensive. Defensive is just pointless. If its getting overun an 88 is screwed anyway, and if its placed properly, the defensives are just a waste of time.

Also mortar & hummels defensives are a waste as well, if they get attacked when unsupported they are screwed even if you got all def. whereas all offensives, especially on the hummel, make there artillery barrages more accurate and deadly.

[ViralRazor]

I actually think its better to use defensive for Falls and a lot of other PE squads because they die really easily with their small squad size. Falls are 420 MP and they already have excellent damage with FGs but are very weak and can't take much fire.

[Zallis]

whereas all offensives, especially on the hummel, make there artillery barrages more accurate and deadly.

*sigh*

No, it doesn't. All the things that offensive accuracy effect don't affect the hummel's barrage. It's a bombardment type weapon, so accuracy means fuck all. Cooldown and reload on the barrages are set in stone for certain intervals, and no amount of offensive vet is going to make the barrage fire off faster. Same with the mortar barrage. The regular mortar fire is affected by the cooldown and reload changes, but more often than not, you're going to be using barrage on the mortar halftrack.

The penetration bonus is only useful against pershings, and if you're wasting your hummel' shells on the pershing when you could be mashing his infantry or his base...

Defensive vet gives your hummel more hp, and less received damage. If there's a vehicle shooting at your hummel, yes, you hummel is pretty screwed. But the extra health and decreased received damage makes a big difference if the hummel is being shot at by enemy artillery, and may keep the hummel alive long enough that you can at least bring in something to either protect your hummel or exact revenge on whatever killed it.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

Zallis is correct, I forgot to mention this. I made a thread a long time ago and Hummel's offensive veterancy only decrease the barrage cooldown (so you can use the ability again faster), and increase the rate of fire IN BETWEEN shots (due to reduced reload).

It does not increase accuracy or anything else special. Increased penetration is also pointless, because the Hummel's artillery already has full (or bonus) penetration against all targets.

So basically, you would only go offensive veterancy for Hummels for the reduced cooldown. Each level reduces the cooldown on the ability by 10 seconds, so a veterancy 3 offensive Hummel would be able to barrage 30 seconds faster every time. The reload bonus is somewhat minor, although some may argue that it does help.

[Zallis]

So basically, you would only go offensive veterancy for Hummels for the reduced cooldown. Each level reduces the cooldown on the ability by 10 seconds, so a veterancy 3 offensive Hummel would be able to barrage 30 seconds faster every time. The reload bonus is somewhat minor, although some may argue that it does help.

I was under the impression that the cooldown decrease applied to every level of vet, regardless of whatever bonus you chose. If I recall correctly, the changelogs indicate that too, and I've always used the defensive veterency on the hummel and found the decrease in cooldown. Could be just my imagination.

And the cooldown bonus for offensive vet is .9 at lvl 1, .95 for subsequent levels. I don't think that would mean 10 seconds per level. Further more, the barrage is an ability, while the offensive vet modifiers apply to weapons. You don't see offensive vet PGs being able to throw nades any faster.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

@Zallis: What I meant was this:

- Panzer Elite Hummel artillery barrage ability increased from 60 seconds to 90 seconds.
- Panzer Elite Hummel artillery barrage ability decreases by 10s for every level of veterancy.

This is a separate thing and not necessarily part of the actual statistics called "cooldown". Sorry for any confusion.

[Zallis]

My point isn't the cooldown from offensive vet. MY point is that the -10 seconds from the ability cooldown isn't linked to offensive vet at all, but rather just any level of vet, regardless of which bonuses you choose.

[sturmtruppe]

the firing cone always seems tighter when i choose all offensive when i choose hummel. Id say maybe it was my imagination, but there are zero stray shots on vet 3 offensive.

Also, if you choose even 1 defensive on the anti tank halftrack, you are officially retarded. If you go vet 1, 2 & 3 offensive, there is no need for the prescision shot that is used to snipe infantry.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

@Zallis: Oh sorry, now I understand what I mean. Yes, you are correct, any kind of veterancy on the Hummel reduces the barrage cooldown, even defensive. This means there's more benefit to going defensive veterancy than offensive, unless you consider the reload bonus (reduced wait time in between rounds fired) better.

@Sturmtruppe: I remember in my thread back then that this was disproved. The firing cone is NOT improved. Accuracy is NOT improved. The answer was simply "placebo effect" - we think it does improve, but in reality it does not.

[sturmtruppe]

meh i think id still go offensive, just to get maximum destruction out of the gun. But that is really dissapointing.

What about the panther battlegroup? Whats the best vet for them? I always go def, off, off.

[Zallis]

The only noticeable bonus to offensive vet on the panther is that it shoots faster, and maybe its accuracy. It penetrates american and british tanks most of the time anyways (save for a pershing), and each level of offensive vet decreases is reload time by about 1 second, roughly (just counting 1 steamboat, 2 steamboat, etc). Offensive vet DOES benefit its piddly little machine guns, though... And someone somewhere said that a panther with offensive vet 3 will take out a pershing, even if the pershing has the HVAP upgrade.

Defensive vet makes the panther harder to kill. Received accuracy is of questionable value, since the panther is so big most things won't scatter far enough to miss it anyways, but the decreased damage, increased speed, and extra health all are useful.