1.2 -- I've fallen, and I can't get up

[BudgetMessiah]

Knockdown/knockback is currently way too effective in games. I'm actually a little disappointed that it works the way it does after playtesting (did they even try this out?), similar problems existing in the Fantasy Warhammer MMO (are we learning yet?), and 2 patches (apathy doesn't look good on anyone).

The simple fix: Any unit which has just been knocked down is immune to knockdown for a few seconds. Also, it would be nice if certain conditions which are described as making a unit immune to knockdown (Battle Cry, retreating) actually worked.

[Cuddles]

In principle a good idea, however in practice it might have issues. Imagine heavy weapon teams immune to knockdown for a short period. Not to mention the waste of abilities which cost energy/ZEQ, purely because said squad was knocked down earlier.

[Codex]

too OP if FC was unknockdownable. too OP if SM were unknockdownable in general. you need to keep a lot of things of their backside vs them.

[BudgetMessiah]

Imagine heavy weapon teams immune to knockdown for a short period.

If the weapon team already got knocked down, then it needs to reset. By the time it's done resetting (2-3 seconds), then this proposed "knockdown immunity" will already have expired. No problems there, right?


Not to mention the waste of abilities which cost energy/ZEQ, purely because said squad was knocked down earlier.

This problem already exists with sync kills (can't tell you how many walkers survived a melta bomb just because they were dancing around with a marine in their claw). The player needs to be aware and not waste his abilities. Your point is valid, but I think its the lesser of two evils.

[Goobers]

One of the selling points of Battle Cry is that it makes him immune to knockdown for the duration. I've never had a problem with it but apparently stuff an still knock him down.

[BudgetMessiah]

It feels like he's slightly more resistant to it, but stuff still definitely knocks him down. Being knocked down by a warlock, and only warlocks seem to be able to do this, because of their dippy lightning-tractor-beam-thing while I've been in retreat for 8 seconds and he happens to be attack moving in the neighborhood is nonsense, as well.

[Cuddles]

And assuming one member of the heavy weapon team gets knocked down (not the guy with the big gun) does the whole squad gain immunity?

Exactly, immunity to knockdown will just make wasted abilities even more common place. How pissed would you be if you jump some Assault Marines onto an enemy only for a stray D-cannon shot to knock them down before you landed. You assault jump is completely wasted. Now imagine that enemy unit was a squad of Nobs or Seer Council.

I barely touched on other issues as I didn’t see the point.

Scouts with shotguns will loose a lot of their versatility and Termagaunts will suffer the same way, they just aren’t that scary without the knockdown that comes with synapse.

Arty will loose its effectiveness. Part of the reason they’re hard to kill is they knock you down on your way to hack them up. Lolhammerbubble men can just run towards D-cannons without any forethought or need for flanking as they can take the damage.

Waagh! For Orks will loose its effectiveness. It supposed to trigger special attacks more often, among other things; these attacks normally cause knockdown/back.

You’d be surprised how many units/abilities will be gimped by your suggestion.

I’ve no idea about the FC, his Battle Cry ability seems to make him immune to some and not others. Could be a bug, could be a sucky tooltip giving the wrong impression.

[BudgetMessiah]

And assuming one member of the heavy weapon team gets knocked down (not the guy with the big gun) does the whole squad gain immunity?

I would hope it could be done on an individual unit basis, and not the squad, because yes it would be unfair if one unit conferred the immunity to all units (think of the FC's battlecry and how useless it would become after the first swing).

And, frankly, termagants are the problem. With 8 units in a squad, every 240 req investment is virtually nonstop knockdown, and a certain attack-move victory.

You seem to be arguing that, once a unit has been knocked down, all future knockdowns for all time will no longer affect the unit under this proposed change. This is not what I am proposing, so please stop trying to strawman the argument. A 2-3 second knockdown immunity won't change most of the mechanics of the game at all, just make knockdown spam less ridiculous. Guys get knocked down while they're already knocked down under the current system. How is that fair?

[Noble]

I disagree with this. Knockdown isn't something that is blatantly winning games to the exclusion of all other tactics. It doesn't overshadow other aspects of the game in the way that something like RA tunnels does, or like the venom cannon did in beta. It is a useful ability that some units have, and it usually entails some kind of upgrade that must be purchased (scout shotguns, VC warriors for the synapse, waagh for the orks).

Further, units that knockdown can be avoided if necessary. See scouts with shotties running around? Don't engage them close up. See termagaunts knocking you down? Kill the synapse creatures around them. Et cetera.

Could you elaborate a bit on why you think this ability is overpowered a bit more than "this is too effective"?

[Cuddles]

I’ll admit some of my arguments may be strawmen, but you have still overlooked the majority of my post. 2 – 3 seconds immunity is plenty of time for a melee unit to reach and batter the hell out of arty or for a unit to completely ignore a special ability thrown at them. How is that fair?

That 240 req unit requires another much more expensive, upgraded unit before they can even do any knockdowns.

[Octopus Rex]

Knockdown is only really a pain on a large scale if you're blobbing (i.e. you get hit by artillery fire). Solution: don't blob so much.

The other time it's a pain is when you have a unit on its own and the enemy get a lot of lucky dice rolls and knock them over every time. Solution: Try not to leave units unsupported against knockdown stuff, especially artillery.

[BudgetMessiah]

Could you elaborate a bit on why you think this ability is overpowered a bit more than "this is too effective"?
Certainly:

See termagaunts knocking you down? Kill the synapse creatures around them. Et cetera.
This isn't as easy as it sounds. I can keep my VC warriors in the fog, and you're still being run through the chipper-shredder that the termagants are. If I build to raveners on top of this, then GG. Nothing on legs will oppose me. Period.


Knockdown is only really a pain on a large scale if you're blobbing. Solution: don't blob so much.

I don't blob at all, and it's still a problem. I make sure each of my squads is behind a unique cover object with overlapping fields of fire. The termagants can attack-move, keeping that first encountered squad down, and that unit is perpetually stunned until I retreat, and guess what? They'll still get knocked down in retreat, and held there unless some miracle happens. Or melee units finish them. Usually the latter.

Were 240 req termagants meant to be an IWIN button when combined with a single squad of warriors?

Maybe the solution isn't an immunity timer (though this is what is done in the MMO, and most people I've spoken with agree that it was a needed change). Maybe the probabilities of knockdown occurring from certain units should be reevaluated. Specifically termagants. I don't use them because I feel so dirty afterwards.

[Noble]

I think you're overstating the effectiveness of termi knockdown personally. They aren't an I win button, and their knockdown chance really isn't all that high. Yes they are good, but not insurmountable.

Termi knockdown allows you to keep the enemy at bay while your warriors and zoans do the real damage. If they aren't engaging you with their synapse creatures and are trying to win through pure termi damage, you should be able to win that ranged battle pretty easily with your own T2 infantry. T2 infantry that doesn't rely on synapse to be worth while and can simply shred termis that are alone.

[Ruzdreg]

I don't like the idea of having a Warboss and Hive Tyrant knockdownable.
Not only does it looks silly seeing a perfectly verticle standing unit "float" through the air but those units would be large enough to withstand alot of the small silly things that knocks them down.

A Force commander with a power fist or thunder hammer can launch a large and heavy Tyranid monstrous creature through the air! I know Spacemarines are pwerful but not enough for a left hook from one of these guys to launch a Hive Tyrant miles into the air!


As for knockdown in general - sometihngs can seem unfair like I watched a replay where someone's Techmarine was getting knocked down by a Fire Prismn during retreat which kept on allowing a Farseer to catch up and inflict heavy damage (due to that +30% extra bonus on retreating units) needless to say the Techmarine was eventually killed as it just couldn't get away.
But to be honest, I don't really have an issue with it - I just see it as some tactic

[BudgetMessiah]

I think you're overstating the effectiveness of termi knockdown personally. They aren't an I win button, and their knockdown chance really isn't all that high.

Let's examine that statement. Compare to scouts, whose 3-4 man squad has a 15% per unit chance of producing a knockdown, out to a range of 26. Termagants, under synapse, have a 25% chance per unit, with a squad of 8, out to a range of 38.

So, that's 160% per unit better odds of a knockdown, and twice the number of rolls to do it, at roughly 150% the range. Or, put another way, every time a termagant squad fires, 2 guys get knocked down. Their knockdown duration is 3 seconds, the refire rate on the gants is 3.5 seconds. That's a significant amount of time for smaller squads to be on their asses.

I didn't even mention zoanthropes, but I'm glad you did. Adding them into the mix of nigh-perpetual knockdown and optional VCs being brought to bear (after the enemy has been properly cowed by the terms), and that starting to sound very much like an IWIN button. Okay, maybe using that term is a bit dramatic, but you have to admit that it's at the very least a very powerful strategy that's far more difficult to counter than it is to deploy.

[Dux]

The suggestion in the OP would make certain weapons, like the WSE Heavy Gauge Filament, basically worthless. Also, it would nerf knockdown far too much in general. I don't really see a problem with knockdown at all.

[hellic]

The real problem is, as always, the Nids. Termagaunts just need their KD % decreased.

[Buguba]

I didn't even mention zoanthropes, but I'm glad you did. Adding them into the mix of nigh-perpetual knockdown and optional VCs being brought to bear (after the enemy has been properly cowed by the terms), and that starting to sound very much like an IWIN button. Okay, maybe using that term is a bit dramatic, but you have to admit that it's at the very least a very powerful strategy that's far more difficult to counter than it is to deploy.

The termi + VC warrior combo is very exposed to jump troops/AG warriors though. A single squad of upgraded ASMs is more than enough to take out a group of 2 termies and a VC. If you don't have 2 VC warriors, then it's exposed to vehicles as well. The termies themselves do piss poor damage, and the knockdown is all that makes them worth it. If someone targets your warriors, then you're screwed.

I think the rest of you are over-stating what he said in his original post though. He's not trying to get rid of knockdown completely, he just thinks that units should have a breif immunity to knockdown *after* they've already been knocked down.

I think it's a good idea, but like hellic said, I think the real problem is Warriors. Most knockdown in the game is manageable, but it's just Warriors that have the insane knockdown ability. If it were more than just warriors though, then I think it would be a good idea. I'd shorten the time to 1.5 -2 seconds though.

[-Ghost-]

It'd be nice if you didn't get knocked down, while you're knocked down, and in the process of being knocked down, all at the same time. It's always a nightmare for my Apothecary, he falls down once and then he gets knocked down like 5 times in a row as I desperately try to heal him. The timer sounds like a good idea, it'd stop them from getting knocked down when already on the ground, and would expire basically as soon as they're standing again, so they at least have *some* chance. They'd still take damage, they just wouldn't get thrown all over the place.

[FooF]

I had this really long post about adding knockback "resistance" to units getting knocked down and realized that it would make a lot of unit abilities obsolete.

I just think certain units' chance to KD needs to be lowered a little bit and we'll be fine. Adding some mechanic to prevent/reduce KD would only gimp many units or abilities.

[Aetherfox]

on the scouts vs termagents thing - i believe why the scout shotgun % seems low is that it's an AOE - a single scout shotgun blast can catch about 3-4 units in the damage cone, and they all have a 15% chance to get knocked down.

also the scout shotgun causes suppression

i usually see a 4 man scout team easily take out a Force Commander trying to cap a VP (stealth up to him, toss a frag grenade and open up with shotguns) he usually gets chain knocked down and eventually gets suppressed and then he's screwed, it's funny that he gets further and further away from the scout squad and they have to move towards him to keep in range. One of the funniest things ever seeing a bubbleboy with hammer get shown what's up by a scout squad.

[BudgetMessiah]

I just think certain units' chance to KD needs to be lowered a little bit and we'll be fine.

That would be nice, or as -Ghost- said, add just enough timer so that my guys can at least stand up fully before they get knocked down again, because the current system is rubbish.

[Coffee]

Knockdown in general is fine.

Stunlocking I very much hate (the kind where the lolhammer smacks your commander on the ground and is back on top of your head before you can stand up, smacking you once again - leaving your unit completely uncontrollable until it's dead).

[mlai]

Force Commander has always had the ability to "stunlock."

[OVBlueGhost]

I don't think this is an issue for during battles.

Ie the KD 'nid army does get a ranged advantage VS SM squads (each KD SM loses much more firepower than in a guardian squad). But we're not seeing cost for cost ranged 'nids dominate ranged SM.

BUT it is a big issue on the retreat.
Basically my view is that except on particular units (Zoeys, vehicles & setup teams). There should not be an ambush that can kill a retreating commander / squad dead due to delaying tactics.

This covers the mele pathing AND KD. Now I don't really see this as a balance issue as tactically you can use these as any race. But this game is supposed to be about casual players. And this is not a casual friendly mechanic.

[BudgetMessiah]

Knockdown is meant to soften up masses of units by putting some of them out of the fight at least part of the time, to "peel" attackers off more fragile units (shotguns to keep gaunts off devastators), or to dislodge units in heavy cover. It is not meant to keep a group of units off-balance continuously or indefinitely. This mechanic already exists, and it is called suppression.

If there were some sort of a timer that prevented a unit from being knocked down until they at least regained their feet long enough to at least hit "retreat", which currently doesn't happen with certain effects, then the functionality of knockback would be maintained, and all the abuse players who get the upper hand by manipulating a broken mechanic would, appropriately, lose.

[MonMalthias]

I quite like the idea of units being knocked down not being able to be knocked down again until they get back up. Aside from the visual comedy, it makes more sense than units, already on the ground, somehow being picked back up into the air and thrown back by whatever ordnance weapon they were hit by.

Knockback spam (i.e. VC warriors, Termagants or even 2x AGWB, FC with lolhammer, etc.) really shouldn't be as powerful as that provided by artillery, though. Currently, units are more likely to be stunlocked (KB-locked) by such units than by arty, when the reverse should be the case. The disabling of KB proc-ing on units yet to get back up along with a global decrease of special attack chances that cause KB will suffice.

Though making this change would reduce combat lethality (And nerf Warriors), it would be a closer to ideal situation for beginners, and would be more intuitive.

[BudgetMessiah]

Another problem that I've observed is conditions where you should be immune to knockdown (running, or Battle Cry) and you are not. A friend of mine noted that this seems to happen with Battle Cry if you pop it while you're not on your feet already, and if this is true, it is broken. When else are you going to use your knockdown protection, except when you're encountering knockdown?

[Cuddles]

The battle cry tool tip sucks. It gives immunity to certain types of knockdown not all. You'd have to lab it if you wanted to know the exacts.

[BudgetMessiah]

See...things like that are just counterintuitive and frustrating. Why should that be at all?

[BeasterReborn]

Vague speculation: Are there two mechanics? Knock BACK and Knock DOWN in play here? Is the FC becoming immune to one and not the other?

I think a compromise between immunity timer and nerfing the % on some abilities. Some abilities will grant an immunity to that ability. So for example, War Cry still "stun locks" you, because the entire ability is based on that facet.

Termagants, who are not meant to be supression units, but are functioning as if they are, grant a KB immunity to Termagant only KB. So you single model who gets assed by a gant, gets back up and has X seconds where he can't be assed again.

Evaluate KBs, KDs, on a case by case balance basis.

OMG no sweeping generalizations!? What kind of forum is this?!?

;)

[MasterBlaster]

Why add a cooldown on units that are getting knocked down and all the wasted ability problems that will cause when..

Simply give units that cause knockdown
Such as Nid and ASM autojumping a cooldown.

I was told in another thread the jumping attacks were surposed to only be for them to jump over cover to get to a target, but they constantly do it even when there isnt any cover in the way, seeing asm jump and knockdown your squad and kill the whole squad by nonstop jumping at them is BS. THis happens especily alot around something like a tank.
There are pathing issues that can be solved simply by giving units that cause alot of knockdown a longer cooldown between attacks.

Warcry and lolhammer needs fixing, as it is its an ability that effective means the death of another commander and this isnt fair, I dont know of any other hero which can ensure the death of a commander solo, even fleshhooks cant it requires other troops to finish the commander off.

[BudgetMessiah]

ASMs don't knock down guys on the little jumps. They only knock down guys on the big jump that costs 70 energy and is already on a timer.

The lolhammer also doesn't take down a comparable hero by itself when you use battlecry. Its damage is significantly reduced per figure when he's doing his knockdown thing. If you're dying to this it's because of other guys dealing damage as well, or because you're a few levels shy of the FC, or you're comparing the FC damage output to a support hero's survivability. The repeated knockdowns of this (and the Apothecary's bolter can produce a similar result) are a little over the top, though, and I wouldn't mind seeing this limited to only affecting units that are already standing or something similar.

[fint]

You still shouldn't be able to just about perma knockdown anything. It's retarded... and that's an insult to retards.

[MasterBlaster]

right.. techmarine vs FC dead techmarine, and keeping the techmarine out of harms way is almost impossible since his only 2 really useful abilities emp grenade and marktarget are very shortrange.

You might want to check the autojumping of ASM they seem to do knockdown on a per unit basis or some kind of stun, when they hit if the units retreating it momentaliry stops. Then starts running again, the asm jumps again and this can repeat till death of unit.

[FooF]

@ Masterblaster

More of a pathing problem than some kind of stun-lock. I use ASM religiously and they never knockback due to the little hops. They do, however, do knockback with their chainswords at a semi-frequent rate so that's what you might be seeing.

[MasterBlaster]

well whatever it is it allows asm to kill entire squads and it doesnt seem to be intended.