Orbital strike, is it OP when compaired to the other mega globals?

[acrimitis]

Just seems a bit OP to me compaired to the other mega global abilities (eldritch storm, roks, and terriform).

Against infantry the SM Orbital Strike seems incredibly more powerful, mostly because it is nearly impossible to dodge where Terriform takes a while to actually happen, and eldritch and roks actually throw infantry out of them if they don't kill them, and if they aren't hit by the first strike or 2, the infantry can get out of there. Orbital strike though, actually traps infantry in it, and does it fast enough that usually only jump/teleport infantry can get out.

Eldritch storm seems to be a bit better against vehicles, but it is easier to dodge than orbital strike and roks, because of the bit of time it takes the storm to build.

Now, i do understand that terriform and eldritch storm cost less than orbital strike. And i also accept that all of these were probably put into the game to help discourage globbing later in the game. Also, this has only hindered me in a couple games because i tend to avoid globbing. The exceptions usually being when a SM player globs and i'm forced to glob to fight thier glob.

[Demonic Spoon]

I'd have to say that yes, it is.

Compare to other globals: Eldritch, Roks, and Tyranniformation aren't really useful unless there's some severe blobbing going on. That's good; games being decided by throwing some global abilities around sucks, but it's a great way to discourage large blobs.

The problem is OB has such a large area of effect (The combined beams cover most of my screen) that, even if you're not really blobbing, you can easily lose a shitton of stuff.

[Saias]

Orbital Bombardment is easy to avoid, just like the other gloabl nukes, however Roks and Eldritch actually have a very good chance of destroying vehicles.

[XViper]

I think it is too. I hate the fact that it traps units.

[acrimitis]

Orbital Bombardment is easy to avoid, just like the other gloabl nukes, however Roks and Eldritch actually have a very good chance of destroying vehicles.

How do you avoid it? Personally, the only time i can avoid it is when using jump/warp troops. Sometimes, i can get a few troops out of most squads, but i still end up loosing 1 or 2 squads, and the majority of the rest.

[Cadian Guard]

hit retreat and pray the pathing is good....

[hellic]

Don't hit retreat. Look at the direction in which you can escape the quickest. If it's directly on top of your squads, always move southeast.

As for the OP's question, the other globals should be cheaper in order to balance out the OB. Roks needs to be 650/700 while Tyrannoform needs to be 550/600 (and/or possibly have the capillaries emerge faster, but only after the rest of the Nids' shit is fixed first :P).

[FooF]

hellic speaks the truth.

At least with OB, you always know where that first beam strike is going to hit. Compared to the other nukes, it is by far deadliest to infantry because of the "beam me up" ability but Roks and Eldritch are arguably more effective against vehicles (Eldritch actually stuns them). Tyranoformation doesn't do a lot of damage and it's also easy to avoid but the one thing people forget about is that it gives synapse and a huge sight radius after the ability.

[Goobers]

Orbital Bombardment is the best against infantry but it sucks against vehicles. Walk your infantry out, don't retreat, your troops will regroup before starting their run and get snagged half way by the anti-grav. Walking them out via the shortest route, the beam spread is exactly the same every time so there is no random chance to it. After you work out which way to move you will never lose 750 zeal worth of troops to an Orbital Bombardment.

Eldrich Storm is great against vehicles but average against infantry, Roks last the longest and Tyrano-formation gives the Tyranid army a massive boost until it is completely destroyed. I lose more things to Rokz and the quick casting eldrich storm than to Orbital Bombardment these days.

[ImmortalChaos]

OB needs to be lined up in accordance with the direction the users HQ is facing. Right now, it's imbalanced because someone on the east side of the map can use it on his enemies, and regardless of weather he hits, he forces the entire enemy army to run right into his guns, which can often kill just as much of the army as the OB itself. The other side sees no such advantage.


Other than that, I see no problem with OB- sure, it's much better than the others for killing infantry, but it is simply incapable of killing a vehicle unless it has been stunned in a timely fashion.

[Hirmetrium]

Anybody who says Tyranoformation is weak obviously hasn't used it much. The center spike strikes first where you target, making it a very, very powerfully accurate tool, and it can easily kill vehicles and throw infantry into other spikes. The only difference is that it doesn't AOE an area - it makes several powerful spike like strikes in that area. The fact its cheap only makes it even better, and the bonuses afterwards make it possibly the best global. I'd take Tyranoformation over Rokks/Storm any day, maybe even OB because of the lasting effects and relatively cheaper cost.

[Chris]

The capillary towers deal enough damage to insta-kill most tier 3 vehicles if they score a direct hit. If you aim it correctly, you can nuke both base turrets with Tyranoformation. Tyranoformation is absolutely devastating once you learn the pattern that the capillary towers rise up in, the key is to get the secondary towers to hit stuff and not just the central tower.

As for the main topic. Nope don't find OB overpowered. It is infact one of the most predictable global powers, the easiest to dodge and it trades anti-vehicle effectiveness for improved anti-infantry power.

[HiveMind]

The number 1 most important thing about Orbital Bombardment is that you have to flee in the correct direction, not just hit retreat and hope for the best. I played a game a while ago in which I had three Guardian squads fighting a Tactical squad. My opponent dropped an Orbital Bombardment on my Guardians and then hit the retreat button, I retreated maybe a second later when I was lucky enough to go and check on the combat. Because of the positioning, very nearly all my 15 Guardians fled past the 'beam me up Scotty' pull effect, but three out of his four Tacticals got caught. I can't remember exactly where things were, because it was a while ago, but we were near one of the top VPs on Green Tooth Jungle, on his side of the map. His Tacticals were just going to be caught by the blast at the top, and my Guardians were barely in the area of the explosion closest to my HQ, so when I fled all my troops just moved a few metres and escaped, while he had to go all the way through the area and got caught.

[Troubleshooter]

OB is IMBA. Nerf it.

It should cost 600 zeal, finish its full animation in half the time it does now, and do 30% less damage. The FC should get wargear that allows him to use it more frequently.

I also want a flying pony for x-mas.

[Schlamiel]

As for the main topic. Nope don't find OB overpowered. It is infact one of the most predictable global powers, the easiest to dodge and it trades anti-vehicle effectiveness for improved anti-infantry power.

QFT.

OB is fine as is. There are some very huge balance issues, that are way more troublesome, no reason to make some up.

[Dux]

OB is balanced out by the fact that it is completely useless against vehicles. It's also not that hard to dodge as long as you don't hit retreat, which is usually the instinctive reaction for most players (myself included).

As an aside, does anyone know exactly what synapse bonuses the capillary towers confer to Tyranid units?

[GrimDark]

What, tyranoform is a good ability? Yes it gives synapse, but only basic one, your army should have already several health/melee/dakka ones.

Killing? I saw tac squad survive direct hit from central spire and a two seconds later a secondary spire hit.
Preds are almost dead, but they are still standing (or I saw effects only on veteran ones... Could be), razorbacks at least goes pop, but it's hardly a good trade, the same with turrets. Dreads are hardly fazed.
And if it is t3 and you have still problems with turrets then you are doing something wrong.

[ErichTheGraham]

I think it is okay that tyranoform sucks. After all, one of the strikes has to be the worst and that's the one. Considering the way the rest of the army is built, I would say it's fine. Their other globals are pretty good anyway.

EDIT: Forgot to make an on topic statement. Orbital strike is quite good but it can totally miss just as easily as the other abilities. I agree that they should change the sides of it depending on which way you are coming from.

[redscare]

OB is fine. In fact, I'm finding Eldritch Storm to be the best one. It's cheap so you can usually cast it twice per game and it's FAST so you can usually hit things with it. Rocks and OB can be avoided by an enemy with half a brain.

Tyranoformation I'm divided. I've seen it decimate armies, but sometimes it does absolutely nothing. I guess if you know how to aim it it's OK (wow, something that needs some skill in the Nids army!!).

[Chris]

As an aside, does anyone know exactly what synapse bonuses the capillary towers confer to Tyranid units?

Basic synapse, same as warriors/hive tyrant. I guess it's kind of nice since in tier 3 all your warrior squads will be upgraded for specific melee/ranged/health synapse and they will stack with the capillary synapse but it's not something you will want to rely on.

Grimdark:

Lrn2Read. I said Tyranoform destroys the BASE turrets if you aim it. No turrets in base, no protection for retreating troops. Enjoy chasing them all the way home with your AG warriors/gaunts.

[GrimDark]

While I don't normally chase people back to their base... This might be worth trying.

Still, my other points still stand, and from what I understand dowcodex - melee synapse=basic synapse+melee bonus with leaping. So, capillary towers would not add any additional effects to the tyranid army, as effects of the same type do not stack.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

[Demonic Spoon]

wrong (http://dowcodex.com/Ability:Capillary_Synapse)

capillary towers provide their own bonuses.

[Garfiesl]

What about walkers, though?
Sure OB takes a while to set in, but a slow unit may get caught nevertheless. Especially when it needs to turn more than a bit. Eldritch does nothing to walkers and with Tyranoform it depends as has been said. Dunno 'bout Rockz.

Still, I don't think OB is overpowered.
Eldritch (maybe Rockz too?), otoh, might need a slight boost against the more resilient units. As it is now, Dreads, Fexes, Hive Tyrants, etc just stare it down with a bored look.

[XViper]

The problem with Eldritch Storm (and Roks to some degree) is that the first attack or two knocks the units clear out the way most of the time. However with the OB the beam hits any units that are 'stuck' there for an instant 600 damage at the end. Almost ensuring the death of anything that is caught in its blast. That's in addition to the 195 damage (65 repeats of 3dmg every 0.1 seconds) of the units caught in the beam.

If you were to Eldritch a Terminator Squad you'd barely scratch it. If you OB a Seer Council, its as good as dead.

[Beholda]

For the amount of bio it takes to use tyrannoform, the jack damage and the low bonus it ain't worth it

Eldritch storm just does jack to all

Roks is too inconstant and since it costs as much as orbital but orks use waaaagh for abilities too it ain't worth it either.

Orbital bombardment comes down almost instantly for a ability of that power and destroys vehicles and all infantry WILL be killed. It is worth it.

Definately need a boost to everything else.

[Garfiesl]

Nah, OB is hardly instant.

But chances are, what with you frantically trying to get your infantry out, your walker won't cut it. And if it's hit, it's dead.
Could be more of a pathing problem, and, more often than not, you'll probably get out.

But the point is, OB at least *forces* your walkers to get the hell out, while with Eldritch don't even bother to move.

[hellic]

Eldritch will kill anything/severely damage (take Tacs w/ Sergeant down to 1 member) in the eye of the storm, including walkers.

[Dux]

Eldritch also disables any vehicles that it doesn't outright destroy. It's practically impossible to hit a vehicle with OB, because it takes forever for the beam to actually strike, and the whole being stuck thing that happens to infantry doesn't apply to vehicles.

[Garfiesl]

You're right, of course, Eldritch is much more viable against vehicles than OB.

The point I was trying to make is that OB is potentially lethal against *anything* caught in its blast. And also vehicles may not always be fast enough to pull out, if their pathing is blocked by allied/enemy units.

I feel that Eldritch deals quite meek damage against (super-)heavy infantry and walker-types. I frequently see half-dead Dreads and such stand in the center when the storm sets in and yet live to tell the tale. Is it just me, or do others think the same?

And taking Tacs down to 1 member even with Sergeant doesn't sound too great to me, unless maybe they're lvl 4.

[The Deciever]

hehe all you ppl that think tyranoform is useless i hope you continue your ignorance until one day where it completely !@#$'s you up

[Buguba]

Even if OB was OP, it's the only reason I go T3 SM sometimes. If it were nerfed, there'd be almost no reason to go T3 unless I really really wanted to use Predetors.


hehe all you ppl that think tyranoform is useless i hope you continue your ignorance until one day where it completely !@#$'s you up

I agree with all you saying that Tyranoformation can do good damage, but that's assuming your opponent is even hit by it.

Of all the abilities, it is the slowest to take full effect. Not only does the enemy get the big circle notifications that it's coming, but the capillary towers come out of the ground one by one. Even if they get hit by the first one, the rest are relatively easy to evade.

[Sabulum]

Yeah, but the first spike comes out quickly, and its nearly impossible to get an infantry squad out without getting hit by a least one spike.

Which is a pain in the ass, because the knockdown effect of getting hit by one spike almost always means a couple units in a squad getting hit by another spike, not to mention it leaves you extremely vulnerable to enemy squads moving in + the significant synapse bonus.

OB is definitely overpowered at lower skill levels because people don't know how to deal with it, but it's nearly useless at higher TS ones unless you use it in synergy with knockdown effects.

Also, please don't nerf SM T3 anymore than it already is.

[acrimitis]

It's good to hear all the varying opinions on OB.

I gotta say though, it is a bit OP. With it's quick acting 'beam me up' coupled with the HUGE amount of damage it can put out, it's infantry's worst nightmare. As it stands, it can eliminate even the most powerful infantry in the game with one good hit.

IMO, the time between the on ground graphic, and the actual beam me up should be increased slightly, 0.5 to 1 second, while the time between the beam me up, and the actually explosion should be decreased significantly. It would only make it a bit easier for infantry to dodge it, but would also make it more effective against infantry.

On a side note, yeah, SMs don't really have much of a reason to go tier 3, but that's mostly because thier tier 1 scales so nicely in tier 2, and the tier 2 units SM get are very powerful when compaired to the other race's tier 2. Not saying this makes SM OP though, please dont assume that.

[FooF]

With Sabulum, SM T3 is already "iffy" in terms of cost vs. benefit and I'd hate to have even less reason to go there. OB can be a fulcrum shift in close games but it takes bad play on the enemy's part for it to be so. Even perfect placement (unless you use it on a army-in-retreat's HQ) doesn't guarantee significant kills.

[Todehy]

I say it is IMBA.

Is noticeable MORE practical than the other globals because it assures you that it will hit the target with 85% of accuracy. And every infantry trapped in it will simply die.
The fact that it traps units waaay before the beams explode is what makes it imba IMO.

When u throw it, in a blob...you know its a dead blob. The same cannot be said with the other globals. Eldritch storm even when hittingf infantry, it doesnt kille evrything on screen.. in fact most squads survive it and i think is ok... because it shouldnt be a " press win " move.

IMO it needs fixing


I feel that Eldritch deals quite meek damage against (super-)heavy infantry and walker-types. I frequently see half-dead Dreads and such stand in the center when the storm sets in and yet live to tell the tale. Is it just me, or do others think the same?

No, you are not the only one. The strom in comparison with the OB does really crap damage. OB assures you that almost 80% of the things trapped in it will dissapear...with a very high chance....

[Sabulum]

It isn't a 'press-win' move at all. OB's a good option in the game imo, because it's a risky move that requires a bit of synergy in order to use effectively. It's extraordinarily easy to micro away from once you understand the mechanics of it, and it punishes players for blobbing and not taking care of their army appropriately.

Eldritch storm goes off quickly, has a fairly large AoE, and deals the precious vehicle damage that OB just doesn't bring. Furthermore, Eldar have so many annoying other abilities, like Warp Throw or the WSE stasis ability that coupled with Eldritch Storm can really ruin an enemy player's day. If you think Eldritch storm isn't powerful enough, I'm inclined to believe you are not using it correctly.

[Todehy]

I dont say it is not strong enough. IN fact i think is oK because it serves it purpouse, and at the same time do not insta gib squads, even when are caught in it.

Orbital catches and dissapear infantry with ease...to the point is even more difficult to miss an OB than to connect it. And vehicles do not always can escape an orbital. At least the eldar tanks when got stuck in an orbital just die. , so is not like the eldirtch is the best AV global cuz the OB do the same function.

[BudgetMessiah]

I would like it if OB was changed so that the time between the template and the first beam was slightly longer, a half a second or so, and the time between each of the beams was decreased. I'd also like to see the beam order changed so that the top beam fires first instead of the left one, because I've noticed in team games of SM vs SM, the team on the right seems to be able to OB more effectively. This is simply because of the order of the beams relative to the necessary direction of action towards the front. By making the first shot the one "in the middle" and by making the firing time between beams shorter it will normalize this, and make bombardments more a matter of timing than what side of the map the CPU spawned you on.

[Garfiesl]

I don't find it so extraordinarily easy to micro away from an OB.
Maybe this is less of an issue in 1v1, but I mostly play 3v3 where response times are generally worse due to lag and there are more blobbs that make juicy targets. Add in messed up pathing and you're looking at a dead vehicle.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think OB should be nerfed. I don't want to see soft nukes. If anything, I'd agree with acrimitis' proposal.

And I do think Eldritch Storm lacks power, especially against SM. Throw one ontop a blobb of Tacs, and watch not even a single squad gettting killed.
Getting reduced to 1 member in peak damage is underwhelming to say the least.

But I could live with that, it's just the complete uselessness against super-heavy/walker types that annoys the hell out of me.

[Dux]

OB is the biggest waste of ZEQ in the game now. This thread was a resounding success.

[b00mslang]

I would like it if OB was changed so that the time between the template and the first beam was slightly longer, a half a second or so, and the time between each of the beams was decreased. I'd also like to see the beam order changed so that the top beam fires first instead of the left one, because I've noticed in team games of SM vs SM, the team on the right seems to be able to OB more effectively. This is simply because of the order of the beams relative to the necessary direction of action towards the front. By making the first shot the one "in the middle" and by making the firing time between beams shorter it will normalize this, and make bombardments more a matter of timing than what side of the map the CPU spawned you on.

How cool would it be to be able to place the targetting beams yourself?

[Todehy]

OB is the biggest waste of ZEQ in the game now. This thread was a resounding success. Thanks to everyone who contributed ont his :)

now, 100 damage seems a bit weak...500 is acceptable. But are u guys sure that the 500 damagfe never connects?. Test it more!.

[acrimitis]

OB is the biggest waste of ZEQ in the game now. This thread was a resounding success.

Cry me a river. But seriously, making it do only 100 damage isn't what the majority of the players here wanted. Also, making it do 500 at the epicenter, and 100 further out sounds more like a bug fix than anything. It makes it more in line with the animation; one beam hitting in the center and spreading out. Now if it does infact throw the units out of the 500 damage epicenter before it goes off, that needs to be addressed. But now you have a taste for how eldar players feel about Eldritch storm and orks feel about Roks! :-P.

[konfeta]

You mean the 2 factions with 5 total heroes who have AoE disable abilities that pretty much guarantee that Eldritch or Rocks will hit?

Sure. Whatever you say.


*well, "guarantee" is a bit of a strong word, but SM have no analogue to Timefield, Levitate, Phaseshift, Megarumblah, Stun Grenade, or Stuny Stomp.

[acrimitis]

You mean the 2 factions with 5 total heroes who have AoE disable abilities that pretty much guarantee that Eldritch or Rocks will hit?

Sure. Whatever you say.

You mean those abilities which, for the most part will cause the heros to be hit as well? Oh, and what about the fact that both Roks! and Eldritch can knock the same disabled units out of thier radius on the first less than damaging hit? What about the unit abilities which SM have which are just as effective at disabling units?

Also, i doubt this thread was the cause of the adjustment to OB, the patch was more than likely in testing by the time I started this thread.

If a moderator is reading this, please feel free to shut this thread down as it is no irrelivent and may attract some players to try to snipe it down without even reading several of the suggestions made within.

[konfeta]

You seriously aren't going to compare something like Teleport + Phase Shift to a Dreadnought slowly lumbering for perfect positioning on it's stomp?

[acrimitis]

No, but i am going to compare various knockdown abilities to scout nades, ASM jump, and dreadnaught charge, just to name a few.


If a moderator is reading this, please feel free to shut this thread down as it is no irrelivent and may attract some players to try to snipe it down without even reading several of the suggestions made within.

[Troubleshooter]

No, this thread could not have been the reason for this fuckup. Don't be defensive.

I didn't like losing my tac-mass to OB's in late game anymore than other people... takes the fun out of out-playing someone. This is a bit of an over-nerf though... and the ZEQ cost of the spell is unchanged... which is completely out of line.

So, looking forward to relic showing us how this new and improved patching-for-balance system really works, because right now I'm getting that sinking feeling... a month or more of the same Nid, Mek, and now Orbital lulz leaves me twitchy.

[Dux]

But now you have a taste for how eldar players feel about Eldritch storm and orks feel about Roks! :-P.
These abilities are 1000 times better than OB at the moment. OB is totally worthless. You can't even kill a fucking Scout with it. It's a joke.

I don't even play SM 99% of the time (I play Eldar mostly), and I'm really annoyed with this. It's just so typical of Relic.

[konfeta]

ASM jump, Scout Grenades, and "Dreadnought" Charge aren't anywhere near in the same league as disables that work against even retreating units, have bigger AoE, and at most cost you the requisition to revive your hero + wargear.

[Todehy]

It must hit the 500 damage sometimes of most of the times...are you sure people it NEVER hits units becaus ethe intiial blast send them flying?

[Mordeinn]

Tier 3 is pretty useless for SM plz dont nerf it down.

Here is how I use OB : send some troops in close combat, let the melee engage then retreat one second before launching it a bit back in the line of retreat of your opponement. Meanwhile, ranged units do their job. Otherwise it take only a few squad members most of the time. Dont think its op at all.

[mlai]

Sounds like the OB nerf turned into a bug because the dev writing the nerf mistimed the knockback. Otherwise it would have been a reasonable nerf: 500 dmg to radius 8, +100 dmg to radius 11.

As TS says, now's the time for Relic to show off their much-hyped new speedy-patch doctrine. Since this is a bug that occurred during balancing, there should be no need to "wait a month" before patching it.

[Todehy]

well 500 damage is very reasonable in comparison with the uber damage it was doing. Now just fix the mistimed knockback and there you go!.

[acrimitis]

ASM jump, Scout Grenades, and "Dreadnought" Charge aren't anywhere near in the same league as disables that work against even retreating units, have bigger AoE, and at most cost you the requisition to revive your hero + wargear.

But these are abilities which are available on your base units, not just heros. Eldar have 3 units that provide any sort of disable, and that's if you count the knockdown from d-cannons and fire prisms. Other then that, all they have is the WS nade which is only effective against vehicles.

[BudgetMessiah]

Every Eldar hero has a potential setup for a bombardment. That is what we're talking about here, right? The farseer can slow you, or lift-throw you, the exarch can float you, and the warlock can toss an army into a bombardment.

Comparing scout grenades (et al.) to any of these is just insulting, and ignoring them is disingenuous.

[Troubleshooter]

Regardless... 999 Zeq for a worthless nuke is beyond the pale. This isn't even remotely funny. (well, its funny as in Ha ha funny, not as in serious funny... you know what I mean...)

[konfeta]

Are you honestly saying ASM knockback is anywhere near close to being effective at locking down units to ensure something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-oRM6xqfqg

ASM jump, Scout Grenades, and "Dreadnought" charge (which normal Dreadnoughts do not actually have) can disable 5 squads? Really? So that's what we morons have been doing wrong! We had players dodging OB before because we were too stupid to send in over 1500 worth of requisition and God knows how much power in Dreadnoughts, ASM, and Scouts to permaknockdown the entire enemy army!

Disruption != disable.

[Noble]

This thread discussed a balance issue prior to 1.3.1 and there is another thread over in the space marine section talking this over.

If you guys want to have a balance discussion about this please create a new thread describing the current situation in the OP. Honestly though, it's a confirmed bug and discussing it doesn't seem that interesting to me.

Thread locked.