T2 detection units fail.

[Buguba]

No, it's not the units themselves. The problem I'm talking about is that it's stupid how some races can build detector units ONLY in T2.

The races I'm talking about are the Space Marines (only detector unit: Scout Sergeant, leader upgrade for scouts. T2 requirement) and the Tyranids (only detector unit: Lictor. T2 requirement). This is more than just detecting infiltrated scouts and Kommando Nobz though, this is about detecting mines and other infiltrated tricks in T1 too.


Problem: It's bad game design to allow a certain unit or game dynamic to take effect before a player can reasonably counter it.

You see it happen with Rippers to some degree. Rippers can be fielded immedietly, but most races don't have an effective AOE counter until they've accumulated a decent amount of power. Consequently, the player is unreasonably forced into letting the Rippers run wild and free until enough power is accumulated.

This is like T2 detectors, except for the T2 detector problem is much worse in its own way. Space Marine and Tyranid players are unreasonably forced into being subjected to infiltration units or mines until T2 hits. It's not even that SM or Nid players were too stupid to build detectors, it's just that they can't. Tiers are a pretty big hurdle, and it's not reasonable to expect that anyone can just "tech up" to counter infiltration. It would be like having to tech to T3 to get AV, except not quite as bad.


This is NOT the same as being caught off guard by a vehicle. All vehicle units hit the field at the same time their counters do, and AV typically costs less than the vehicle itself. It isn't an unreasonable scenario because the other player can expect T2 vehicles and also has the capability to field AV in time to counter those vehicles. In a completely even match-up of two players, it is not unreasonable to expect that both players will be in the same tiers.

Claiming racial design isn't sensible either. While we don't want a carbon copy of each race, this is just stupid. Why don't we put Razorbacks in T1 and just say that the SM has a different race design? It's not about being different; it's about being fair. If any kind of unit is going to be introduced to the playing field, then the other player has to be able to reasonably field a counter to that unit.


Solution: Give the Space Marines and Tyranids an option to detect units in T1, or just move all infiltration abilities to T2.

I know that's kind of broad, but the problem is pretty enmeshed. I'm not saying that scout sarges should be moved to T1, or that Lictors should be moved to T1, but SOMETHING has to be able to detect units in T1 for these guys.

Personally, I think the simplest solution would be to just give commanders a small detection radius. However, that would stand the risk of making all detectors obsolete. The only other feasible option that I can think of would be to just move infiltration and mines to T2 in general.

[Todehy]

What about eldars? U know how much eldars need to sacrifice to get a ranger squad to spot the inflitrated units?.
Theres no prob for scouts because they are a main unit in the SM army.. but rangers are a luxury for eldars , and a very risky one.

I also think this infiltrate/detection relationship should be re-evaluated.

[Goobers]

Rangers are expensive and are a gamble to get out early game, Scout Sarges and Lictors are T2, Stikkbommaz detect 10 feet... whoopdedo. So basically no one has detection untill T2 anyway.

Mine Detection and Unit detection aren't linked. Stikkbommaz can detect mines, but the Wartrukk can't. Example is that you can still clustanuke a Wartrukk with Mekboy mines, but not the stikkbommaz. The Kommando Nob Leader detects both though.


Reworking the detection because scouts become rather annoying instead of mildly annoying, or that Stun Bomb appeared from nowhere is not a really good reason. Mekboy mines also aren't a good reason since they need to be fixed, not worked around.

[glenn3e]

Bah, i think detection should be standardized, mines and infiltrated units should be detected by the same detectors.

[Noble]

I don't think every race needs viable detection in Tier 1. Tier 1 is a relatively short part of the game. The rarity of detectors in that tier give early infiltrators a few moments in the early game to really shine.

Infiltrated units in tier 1 aren't insurmountable. In most situations (with mines for example) they can simply be avoided all together until a detector can be built. If you see your opponent is relying heavily on infiltration, you can always quick tech to tier 2 and hard counter him.

I do think detectors need to be standardized. They aren't intuitive at all (why are stikkbommas detectors again?). There needs to be tooltips or something to inform me about each unit's detection capabilities. Ideally I would like to see a ring around the unit that shows its detection range and possibly a tool tip indicating whether or not it can detect mines.

[MonMalthias]

Well, you're in luck Noble, since the new 1.3.1 squad decorators designate which units (exactly) are detectors.
As for detection range, the range of the squad's guns is a general guide as to their radius.

I agree with you in that Stikkbommas make little sense as detectors. As for the Lictor...it's kind of weird to have a non-synapse unit provide detection. I'd have thought it to be the zoanthrope, but whatever. Rangers as detectors really aren't worth the investment. Though they're T1, their power cost (30!!!) before upgrades and their crap health make them damn vulnerable to anything that sneezes at them.

On the other hand, SM scouts are excellent detector units. They're intuitive and durable and versatile (i.e. not just there for their detection), everything the other race's detectors aren't. Sure, the detection comes in T2, but who cares, when you actually are required to use them anyway?

[Codex]

scouts durable? since when?

[Noble]

I find that their infiltration makes them last much longer on the late-game battlefield than other squishy tier 1 units.

[Chris]

Sure, the detection comes in T2, but who cares, when you actually are required to use them anyway?

I've been playing Lictor Alpha recently and let me tell you, this matchup is a great example of how the current stealth/detection system is totally fucked. The LA will stalk around the map, killing scouts and devs with impunity, absolutely nothing can be done to stop this. Then tier 2 rolls around and you finally get a scout sergeant. Awesome, right? WRONG. LA flesh hooks-insta kill the sergeant. No more detector. Regular lictor flesh hooks don't insta-kill sergeants but he WILL die if hooked towards any unit.

Eldar have the same trouble, rangers just get hooked to death. Nid vs Nid just turns into lictor spam hooking each other to death.

If stealth/detection doesn't change then certain units are going to have to undergo changes, specifically the Lictor Alpha.

[Malachi]

+1 to standarized detection.

It seems that the current system needs some tweaking, but I'd hate to see all infiltration moved to T2. It's a nice part of those first early skirmishes (even if, as Eldar, I end up on the receiving end).

[Codex]

+1 again to standardised detection.

the way to counter lictor spam as SM is carrying a scout serg in razorback. profit. silly enough to spend all your power on lictors? got none for zoan? muahhaa.

[Gen_Khan]

I don't mind the current system.... (get ready for flames)

If confronted by infiltrated units (IE scouts) I just teleport (WSE) next to them and engage in melee. Then the GU's run up and toss some nades... retreat or die!

[BudgetMessiah]

What about eldars? U know how much eldars need to sacrifice to get a ranger squad to spot the inflitrated units?.

Eldar and orks have the easiest and cheapest detection options of all the races. 25 power and it's available on all three units in the squad.

Marines need to tech to T2 and their scout sargeants are the only ones out of all the scouts that see infiltration. If that one unit dies (flesh hooks, assassination), it's lost.

Tyranids spend 30 power at T2, but arguably have the toughest of all detectors.


If stealth/detection doesn't change then certain units are going to have to undergo changes, specifically the Lictor Alpha.
Removing all infiltration from tier 1 would place the current crop of infiltrated units at a disadvantage. What can a lictor alpha do if confronted by another hero, particularly a fighting hero, in the early moments of the game? Run? How could SM deal with heavy suppression? They need scouts to get in; ASMs are too expensive to wait for, and too few when they arrive.

[Sabulum]

Oh man, this hearkens back to the days of..DC I think it was, when the only SM detector unit, the skull probe, required the armory to be built.

Personally, I think better information of which units are detectors and a reorganization of the Eldar unit detection is in order. I've never seen a Lictor fleshhook a scout seargent to death, partly because that would require crazy micro and partly because flesh hook, to my knowledge, reveals the lictor anyways. The Lictor's crazy AoE suppression is what makes him so powerful, and he can only do that undetected.

Also, why can the warlock not detect? I'm not even an Eldar player, and that seems rather unfair to me. Rangers stay too far back behind an army to provide any real detection.

[Coffee]

Eldar and orks have the easiest and cheapest detection options of all the races. 25 power and it's available on all three units in the squad.

Marines need to tech to T2 and their scout sargeants are the only ones out of all the scouts that see infiltration. If that one unit dies (flesh hooks, assassination), it's lost.

You seem to forget that the ranger is the weakest unit in the entire game and more fragile than the Sgt. Furthermore, scouts/T2 are pretty much a given for an SM player (free as he gets scouts for free and would tech to T2 anyways) while an Eldar has to go out of his way to make a fragile 360/25 unit he wouldn't otherwise.

The scout sergeant is only 60/25 and a more useful expansion to the SM player.

[Buguba]

Removing all infiltration from tier 1 would place the current crop of infiltrated units at a disadvantage. What can a lictor alpha do if confronted by another hero, particularly a fighting hero, in the early moments of the game? Run? How could SM deal with heavy suppression? They need scouts to get in; ASMs are too expensive to wait for, and too few when they arrive.

I know exactly what you and everyone else talking about, and I completely agree. There's really no easy solution to the problem because the problem is so intertwined with the game dynamics.

Moving infiltration to T2 gimps many commanders that rely on it, and also the ability for some races to counter suppression teams in T1 (sometimes I'd rather have infiltrated scouts to counter suppression teams rather than build ASMs). Likewise, moving some T2 units to T1 wouldn't be sensible either (I'm not quite sure how I feel about T1 Lictors and scout grenades).


I've been playing Lictor Alpha recently and let me tell you, this matchup is a great example of how the current stealth/detection system is totally fucked. The LA will stalk around the map, killing scouts and devs with impunity, absolutely nothing can be done to stop this. Then tier 2 rolls around and you finally get a scout sergeant. Awesome, right? WRONG. LA flesh hooks-insta kill the sergeant. No more detector. Regular lictor flesh hooks don't insta-kill sergeants but he WILL die if hooked towards any unit.

Eldar have the same trouble, rangers just get hooked to death. Nid vs Nid just turns into lictor spam hooking each other to death.

If stealth/detection doesn't change then certain units are going to have to undergo changes, specifically the Lictor Alpha

Quoted for truth.

The skewed infiltration system isn't insurmountable in T1, but that doesn't change the fact that it's skewed and can be readily exploited. Mekboy mines are a problem even beyond being used as grenades because they can be used to cut off avenues of retreat. I've had it happen more than once in T1 where the Mekboy teleports to where he knows units will retreat through and then plant a whole field of mines there. Because I am either Nids or SM, I can't detect the mines, and my army is effectively stuck where it is. I either lose a war of attrition, or I let my army retreat to their deaths in a mine field.

I've seen infiltration and some races lack of detection ability exploited in more ways than you think, even beyond mines. Chris stated a perfect example I've run into, and another would be having an infiltrated T1 Kommando Nob stun your squad and run you over with waaaggh sluggas. That can be pretty tough when that squad happens to be your 500 req tac marines. The worst part is that there's absolutely nothing you can do about it except pray that the enemy makes a mistake.


I won't pretend that I have a perfect answer for standardizing detection, but the fact of the matter is that it needs to happen. I don't want to move too many units around or just gimp commanders by making infiltrate T2 only, but I don't see a lot of other options.

[Hirmetrium]

So what are you guys saying?

Its all very well pointing out it needs standardising, but do you want razorbacks to detect? Their already very powerful, have excellent AI, speed, amazing ability and provide a reinforce point. LETS MAKE THEM DETECT TOO LOL.

I can't see any other detection alternative for SM either. Rangers have their own seperate issues, not least of all cost and the fact their ridiuclously powerful when properly massed, even worse when microed.

Theres a problem here too - some of these units/heroes rely on their infiltration. The kommando has infiltration and grenades to make up for not having a teleport/repair. Lictors are a mixed bag, because they can still fleshhook/leap while supporting an army.

This is a horrible issue and saying "+1" to standardising won't solve the problem that you risk gimping all infiltration units with a bad choice.

I mean, remember vDoW? Infiltration was USELESS, because every squad got a sergeant, and every sergeant detected infiltrated units.

[Chris]

Removing all infiltration from tier 1 would place the current crop of infiltrated units at a disadvantage.

I never said remove it. Obviously that would be utterly ridiculous and gimp the lictor/kommando worse than the tech marine is currenly. :p However it is my belief that as the game becomes progressively more balance (wishful thinking, eh?) units like the lictor alpha will come to the forefront of the "WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT?!" list.


ersonally, I think better information of which units are detectors and a reorganization of the Eldar unit detection is in order. I've never seen a Lictor fleshhook a scout seargent to death, partly because that would require crazy micro and partly because flesh hook, to my knowledge, reveals the lictor anyways.

Flesh Hooking with the LA reveals him for maybe 1-2 seconds tops. He should re-cloak after the animation is finished. Targeting the scout sergeants; just look for the guy with the emo haircut. :p

[Buguba]

I can't see any other detection alternative for SM either. Rangers have their own seperate issues, not least of all cost and the fact their ridiuclously powerful when properly massed, even worse when microed.

Theres a problem here too - some of these units/heroes rely on their infiltration. The kommando has infiltration and grenades to make up for not having a teleport/repair. Lictors are a mixed bag, because they can still fleshhook/leap while supporting an army.

This is a horrible issue and saying "+1" to standardising won't solve the problem that you risk gimping all infiltration units with a bad choice.

I mean, remember vDoW? Infiltration was USELESS, because every squad got a sergeant, and every sergeant detected infiltrated units.

I've already talked about this some. This is a deep problem that doesn't have a lot of clear answers without disrupting a lot of gameplay. The point of this thread wasn't to say that scout sargeants or rangers aren't cost effective; the point was that having a race's detection unit only available in T2 when infiltration can be so pervasive in T1 is imbalanced.

I brought up in my OP that maybe commanders should be given a small detection radius, but that would run the same risk as what happened in your vDoW example.

The problem isn't even that infiltration units will be useless if T1 detection becomes standardized, because there are plenty of uses for infiltration past T1. The problem is introducing a way for Nids and SM to purchase a form of detection in T1.

[hellic]

T1 upgrade for Scouts and Rippers* (lol) to provide detection? Decrease power cost of Rangers?


* I'm assuming Relic nerfs them first somehow, but hey, it'll give the Nids a reason to use Rippers in battle than just go around capping.

[Todehy]

I can't see any other detection alternative for SM either. Rangers have their own seperate issues, not least of all cost and the fact their ridiuclously powerful when properly massed, even worse when microed.

Who serious eldar "masses" rangers anyways?.


I mean, remember vDoW? Infiltration was USELESS, because every squad got a sergeant, and every sergeant detected infiltrated units.

But now is unfair for some units to cannot be detected ad do what they want. Now is the opposite.

It must be cheked.

[BudgetMessiah]

You seem to forget that the ranger is the weakest unit in the entire game and more fragile than the Sgt
Sargeants don't come three to a pack and have fleet of foot. It's far easier to eliminate him than it is to eliminate a ranger squad, unless you simply aren't attending to your ranger squad.

And as far as ranger vs scout utility, that's also BS. If you can't figure out how to use the ranger effectively, that's not the fault of the unit.

[Malachi]

Let's not turn this into a unit balance battle eh?

Some ideas:

- Give Scouts a detection upgrade (skull probe?). To prevent SM from having too good detection, this might be exclusive to Infiltration, which would have to be made distinct from Shotguns. Scouts would end up with 2 pairs of exclusive upgrades: weapon and accessory (infiltration/detection).

- Decrease cost of Rangers, increase cost on their upgrade accordingly.

- Give Rippers detection, but take away their capping ability or resistance.

Another one:

- Move detection for Orkz from Stikkbommaz to Stormboyz (makes more sense to me, as they can observe from the skies), and lower Stormboyz' cost slightly (which was called for).

In addition to the above, make all of these detectors detect both mines and cloaked units. Remove detection from any vehicles (Wartrukk) whatsoever.

[Demonic Spoon]

Not sure I see the issue.

For one, all units have a small detection radius. It's enough to chase stuff down once the threat reveals itself. Infiltrated troops in t1 against nids/SM will be able to get close before you can see them. Which brings me to point two...

So? What exactly in t1 is going to annihilate SM/nids? Lets go through the t1 stealth units

-Scouts with shotguns. Hardly overpowered; a scout that tries to sneak up onto you can be killed off pretty fast. He's not going to do much before being swarmed (melee nids) or blasted (ranged nids + SM). Also, scouts with shotguns cost enough power in the early game that they're hurting themselves quite a bit by going this route, more than enough to make up for the advantage provided by ninjashotguns. They're more for disabling a unit than actual combat.

-Kommando Nob. He can do...what? I suppose his gun is decent, but aside from that he can't do anything more than sneak up + toss stun nade. Compared to what the WB or Mekboy can do in t1, that's hardly overpowered.

-Rangers. Ohnoes? Rangers are never going to run into detection range anyway. They're slightly harder to chase down without dedicated detectors...whoopdeedoo?

-Lictor Alpha. Early t1 you can't really detect him as it seems like the normal detection radius of units doesn't work on him...not that this really matters. Before wargear, the LA can fight (poorly compared to HT and still worse than the RA) and fleshhook stuff.



If you had, say, Kommando squads or scout squads with grenades roaming the map, I'd agree...but t1 infiltration units just aren't that deadly.

[Chris]

Kommando stun grenade affects unit retreat speed. WAAAGH sluggas + inability to retreat = deaded unit.

Being unable to detect the lictor alpha is a huge issue when he can sneak right into the middle of a unit and activate toxic cysts for example. Or flesh hook units with impunity, which is a guaranteed kill vs pretty much anything except for tactical marines in tier 1. Haven't had the chance to check scything talons since the patch but you basically just have to accept the fact that at least one of your units is going to get suppressed and there is nothing you can do about it.

And come on. Every unit has a detection radius? Yeah, if they literally bump into an infiltrated unit by mistake, they will detect it. The only time this is remotely useful is if a point is being taken and you have no detectors, because you basically know exactly where the unit is regardless of infiltration.

I could quite happily go on and on all day about how amazingly powerful the Lictor alpha is against certain races/heroes (when he isn't bugging out), mostly due to issues with detection. Giving races easy access to tier 1 detection could potentially make him too weak but that's were Relic's balance team step in and, you know... balance it (har har har).

[endikux]

Chris did a lictor alpha punch you in the nose and take your lunch money in the 3rd grade because you are on a vendetta against the LA. It's funny but confusing.

LA suffers from poor pathing, large model size and low health. Their infiltration abilities basically put them on par with other heroes and their tactic is really an all or nothing type of thing where once they are detected their power is entirely removed.

Supression only affects shooting. If you are being so beat up by it then go melee army until you can get your detectors. All four races are capable of this. Guants/warriors, assault marines, banshees, sluggas. Now the lictor isn't so scary and more than likely he will just get stuck amongst a bunch of enemy melee and die.

The corrosive claw is the real scary upgrade and by the time the lictor has that you should be detecting him anway.

[Malachi]

Dude, he's not being hit by it he's using it and finding out one imba after another.

Nids are pretty much full of such bullshit currently. It's only the people who play them distinctly that don't see this.

[Demonic Spoon]

Kommando stun grenade affects unit retreat speed. WAAAGH sluggas + inability to retreat = deaded unit.

Being unable to detect the lictor alpha is a huge issue when he can sneak right into the middle of a unit and activate toxic cysts for example. Or flesh hook units with impunity, which is a guaranteed kill vs pretty much anything except for tactical marines in tier 1. Haven't had the chance to check scything talons since the patch but you basically just have to accept the fact that at least one of your units is going to get suppressed and there is nothing you can do about it.

The stun nade has to hit every unit in the squad to work. If you move just far enough away to keep one squad member alive, then they're fine. In theory, what you say is a huge threat. In practice, it doesn't happen because people are usually paying attention when slugga blobs are charging them.

Toxic cysts are useful, but it's not hard to move out. They don't do that much damage. Flesh hook wipes out a single squad member...whoopdeedo. The lictor doesn't need infiltrate to do that.

Suppression claws are nasty, but again it's not a huge issue. It's no more powerful than the stuff the other two nid heroes can do.



And come on. Every unit has a detection radius? Yeah, if they literally bump into an infiltrated unit by mistake, they will detect it. The only time this is remotely useful is if a point is being taken and you have no detectors, because you basically know exactly where the unit is regardless of infiltration.

I could quite happily go on and on all day about how amazingly powerful the Lictor alpha is against certain races/heroes (when he isn't bugging out), mostly due to issues with detection. Giving races easy access to tier 1 detection could potentially make him too weak but that's were Relic's balance team step in and, you know... balance it (har har har).


The detection radius is enough that if you know he is there, you can find him.

The LA is powerful, but not really any moreso than other heroes. He's fragile as hell.

[BudgetMessiah]

The corrosive claw is the real scary upgrade and by the time the lictor has that you should be detecting him anway

No, the suppression claw was certainly a bit more powerful, and likely still is. A clue to this might be that the suppression claw was balanced, and this wasn't even a balance patch. The issue was that glaring.

That being said, Chris, if you're fighting a lictor alpha that has scything talons in tier 1, you may already be a winner! At a cost of 35 power, his tier 2 is going to be very delayed, and tier 2 is where they keep the good Warriors. Without those to worry about, you can just stomp your way over to his power and keep the battle in your favor.

[Buguba]

The stun nade has to hit every unit in the squad to work. If you move just far enough away to keep one squad member alive, then they're fine. In theory, what you say is a huge threat. In practice, it doesn't happen because people are usually paying attention when slugga blobs are charging them.

Toxic cysts are useful, but it's not hard to move out. They don't do that much damage. Flesh hook wipes out a single squad member...whoopdeedo. The lictor doesn't need infiltrate to do that.



The detection radius is enough that if you know he is there, you can find him.

You can't say both those things in the same post reasonably. It's just as easy to move your infiltrated units around as it is your regular units. Why is it suddenly more difficult to hit a squad with a stun grenade than it is to run directly into an infiltrated squad? How is it applicable that someone is paying attention to their capping squad, but they won't be paying attention to their infiltrated squad?

It should also be said that when an infiltrator is detected by a non-detector, they get a hefty defensive bonus. This defensive bonus is not applicable when they are detected by a true detector though. Regular non-detection is not enough.


So? What exactly in t1 is going to annihilate SM/nids?

I don't think that T1 infiltration annihilates SM/Nids either. Where did I say that in my post? I said that it leaves them at an unfair disadvantage, not that it was insurmountable.

I think you're downplaying how effective infiltration can be in the right hands. It's not an insta-win strategy, but it certainly leaves races without detection at a good disadvantage if the player uses his infiltrated units well.

[Goobers]

How are Space Marines disadvantaged by this when they are the ones with the infiltrating units?

[Chris]

Chris did a lictor alpha punch you in the nose and take your lunch money in the 3rd grade because you are on a vendetta against the LA. It's funny but confusing.

I was bored and started watching some TS 40 LA replays. I decided that I was fed up with getting owned by tyranids every match and switched to the LA for the lulz. All I can say is... this hero is insane and my TS is steadily on the increase since I am beating opponents whom I would certainly struggle against with SM. I believe it is very important to get as much exposure for this hero as possible, balancing the Ravener (if it ever happens) will be a hollow achievement if the LA steps in to take his place. :p


No, the suppression claw was certainly a bit more powerful, and likely still is. A clue to this might be that the suppression claw was balanced, and this wasn't even a balance patch. The issue was that glaring.

That being said, Chris, if you're fighting a lictor alpha that has scything talons in tier 1, you may already be a winner! At a cost of 35 power, his tier 2 is going to be very delayed, and tier 2 is where they keep the good Warriors. Without those to worry about, you can just stomp your way over to his power and keep the battle in your favor.

The talon knockback and suppression was reduced but it is still significant as I found out today. The knockback still affects retreating units, as if retreating for the LA wasn't hard enough already.

Why is a 35 power hero investment going to slow down the tyranid player? What else are they spending power on? Guants, nope. Rippers, nope. Warriors? A paltry 15 power. Lictor can easily afford scything talons (plus other wargear) in tier 1 without being pushed too far behind, unless the opponent is going for a "hit tier 2 as soon as physically possible" strategy... which is a terrible idea anyway.


Toxic cysts are useful, but it's not hard to move out. They don't do that much damage

Try infiltrating up to a slugga squad, activate cysts and engage them. Watch their HP drop like a rock. You can't "just move away" because the aura emanates from the lictor, who is mobile and in your face.

If you don't think talons are that great then I'm going to have to wonder what the heck you are doing with them. Suppressing/knocking back multiple ranged units when you have gaunts and warriors baring down on them? NOT THAT USEFUL?! Sweet Jesus. 10/10, would rage again.

As for flesh hooks not being a big deal... it's kind of a big deal when it's your last squad member. Or if you only have small squad numbers to begin with. It's just text book attrition. Flesh hooking sluggas for example makes them less dangerous in an early game skirmish because killing a member reduces the effectiveness of WAAAGH. Every time flesh hooks recharge, something WILL die (assuming it doesn't bug out ofc). This is a nice little EXP earner for the LA, plus it keeps constant pressure on your opponents economy.

Right now I feel the only problem the LA has, are bug related. The only race that are capable of exploiting his weakness right now are Orks in my opinion but tyranids dominate orks so hard it's not even funny. :(

[Buguba]

How are Space Marines disadvantaged by this when they are the ones with the infiltrating units?

In some ways they aren't, in some ways they are. By simply having your own infiltrated units doesn't even it out though. It's not always "tit for tat" when you have infiltrated shotgun scouts and they have a field of infiltrated mekboy mines. Likewise, infiltrated shotgun scouts aren't nearly as scary as Lictor suppression claws.

Admittedly though, I think the non-detector problem mainly lies in mekboy mines and the Lictor in T1. Infiltrating units typically don't have the kick to take out Warriors, Tacs, or ASMs in T1, so it's harder to abuse. I don't think the Lictor and such should have to suffer to much though just because Relic decided to not give SM or Nids a good way of detecting early on.

[Skarmory the PG]

You seem to forget that the ranger is the weakest unit in the entire game and more fragile than the Sgt. Furthermore, scouts/T2 are pretty much a given for an SM player (free as he gets scouts for free and would tech to T2 anyways)

Scouts yes. T2 yes. Sergeant no.


Oh man, this hearkens back to the days of..DC I think it was, when the only SM detector unit, the skull probe, required the armory to be built.

One of three. Skull Probe, Librarian, and Heavy Bolter Turret.

[Codex]

It should also be said that when an infiltrator is detected by a non-detector, they get a hefty defensive bonus. This defensive bonus is not applicable when they are detected by a true detector though. Regular non-detection is not enough.


Not true. If they walk into the actual detection radius, they lose all defensive bonuses. This is signified by their starting as pink (defensive bonus) and moving to full on red (no defensive bonus). Hence ASMs can rip apart scouts when chasing them in CC, since they have been fully detected. Of course, the range of this detection is so low that they will benefit from the defensive bonus most of the time.

[Noble]

Chris, would I be correct in saying that your problems are with the Lictor Alpha rather than infiltrating tier 1 units in general? That seems to be what you are arguing, and if so that is a separate issue from the thread topic.

I'm still not convinced that infiltrating Tier 1 units (short of the LA, maybe) are a real balance concern. Yes it's annoying to lack any real counter to these things in Tier 1 but

A) Tier one is short
B) Most infiltrators in tier 1 don't have the potential to do that much real damage and are used more for harassment and scouting. This provides an advantage, as it should, but it doesn't seal the fate of the game.

[Arbit]

and another would be having an infiltrated T1 Kommando Nob stun your squad and run you over with waaaggh sluggas. That can be pretty tough when that squad happens to be your 500 req tac marines. The worst part is that there's absolutely nothing you can do about it except pray that the enemy makes a mistake.
Man, if only events played out like that all the time. Usually, I stun one or two tacs, because I guarantee you any SM worth his salt is going to be microing the hell out of those 500 req tacs in T1. Then a battlecryin' FC comes over and beats the holy hell out of my sluggas.

Also consider that the KNob is terribly vulnerable until he gets some wargear because of his health and short range shoota.

This sounds like an LA problem. Don't nerf my KNob. >: (