1000pt Mech Guard

[Nemaros]

Last match I played against Marines, I dunno if it was poor rolling, or just incompetancy.. but I lost pretty bad
I've just started my Guard army after playing DE & 'Nids, so I'm a little lost as terms as an effective Mech list goes.. However the first Mech list I made (750pt) was an entire failure, with the suggestion of bringing more bodies, I wrote this..

HQ
Command Squad
w/ 2x Plasmagun
Medic
Chimera w/ML & HF
[165pt]

Elites
Stormtroopers/Infiltrate
(10 man squad)
w/ 2x Meltagun
[185pt]

Troops
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command
4x GL
Commisar (Spare points)
[85pt]
3{ Infantry Squad w/GL & ML
[260pt]
[[310pt]]

Veterans
w/ 2x Plasmagun
Medic
Chimera w/ ML/HF
[185pt]

Heavy
Russ BT
w/ HB Sponson
[170pt]


I know it's not quite Mech Guard, but the 2 Chimeras went down in the first turn, and the Russ killed an entire 2 infantry..
Any suggestions would be great :P

[ThirdDanScoota]

Get new dice!


poor rolling

With the exception of my poor Termies, this contributed a lot. However, had this not been a factor, I believe victory would have been yours.

Anyway, everybody please help his man so that he can utterly drill me in our next game. :D

[[Chosen]]

Like to point out you have nothing that can kill a monolith.

AND I would like to say that you're lacking in somewhat amount of AT, take lascannons in your infantry squads instead with your spare points from the commissar.

[Nemaros]

I never consdiered that :/ Is there any merit in putting the LC/ML in a heavy weapons team, rather then tying up 30 lasguns?

[pgarfunkle]

Well there are the two meltaguns in the storm trooper squad which could try deep striking next to anything big and scary.

However I think that your points are off for your infantry platoon, I think it should be valued at 295 instead of 310. Also you cannot field a medic in a veteran squad. (I've assumed that you are using the new codex for this list if not and your points, etc are correct I apologise).

Putting your heavy weapons in a separate squad does mean that you can focus the weapons fire on the most appropriate targets i.e. lasguns at troops and HW at vehicles. This does come at the cost of lower survivability as there are fewer models in the team to remove before the HWs go. Use of cover and the new orders could help to keep them alive though.

[Dragoon]

Pretty much most of what pgarfunkle said is the case.

Medic Cannot be in vet squad, only company command squad
Infantry Squad is 295 pts, not 310

However, I find these areas a problem also:
1)having only 1 squad that infiltrates seems to serve little more point than to split up your army. Id probably not use Stormtroopers at 1000pts due to cost and lack of ability to safely position them.
2)The commissar and 4 grenade launchers being equipped to a 30pt squad made of guardsmen seems like little more than a point sink, a point sink that could be giving you a Hydra or chimera.
3)HB sponsoons on a LR that fires artillery is pointless. Lumbering behemoth allows you to fire a hull weapon, but unless the main weapon is not an artillery piece, you will never fire those HB on the sides. thus making this 20 wasted points.

The main idea of a mechanized list is essentially to take advantage that a person at 1000 points probably only has 2/3 squads made for killing a tank at all. If you have 9 vehicles on the field, this means that the enemy is really pressured to try and kill your vehicles, while usually lacking enough heavy firepower to do so.

Id modify your list to something like this:

HQ
Command Squad
w/ 2x Plasmagun
1x Meltagun
Medic
Chimera w/ML & HF
[175pt]

Fast Attack
Vendetta
[130 pts]

Troops
Veterans
3x Meltagun
Chimera w/ Multilaser + HF


Veterans
3x Meltagun
Chimera w/ Multilaser + HF


Veterans
3x Meltagun
Chimera w/ Multilaser + HF
[465pts]

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Executioner
Plasma Cannon sponsons
[230 pts]

1000 pts.

Now thats a mechanized list in the truest form, 6 vehicles, 4 squads that have vehicle and AP2 or AP1 killing power. Vendetta offers long range support with its 3 TL Lascannon setup, and is the only vehicle you do not move for the game (except for objective contesting at the last turn, since it can turbo boost). The amount of firepower per turn is slightly lacking, but you could replace the executioner and one of the Vet w/ Chimera squads to get 2 normal leman Russes instead and probably a Hydra also.

for mechanized lists in the guard, take advantage that the leman Russ has a 14 Front, have it lead the charge of chimeras by moving 6 inches per turn (so it can fire its main cannon and HB, and chimeras get ML plus veterans can fire) keep it in front so that at least 2 chimeras are given a cover saved if fired at from the front, or the enemy is forced to fire at 14 armor. keep the other 2 chimeras behind the 2 LR covered chimeras, and then at turn 3, break formation, park yourself 12" from the enemy, and keep firing all you can from those chimeras while the executioner stands still and rains 5 plasma cannons per turn.

[Nemaros]

Well, that sounds a little more offensive then my previous list..
And I guess I must send my apoligies to ThirdDanScoota, that "illegal" medic in the vet squad was driving him nuts all game lol
Thanks for the advice everyone, all hope is not lost ^^

[[Chosen]]

I agree with Dragoon on his points, thou I would like to point out the following.

1. I do not like the new valyrie variants, that includes the vendetta. I suggest going for a good old artillery with that cost, preferably the medusa with increased AT power and that ap2 pie.

2. I question the power of a executioner in 1000, if you take my advice on the medusa youd have no problem against Ar 2+, so I suggest taking the regular russ without sponsors, it is stripped clean and will be more cost efficient. You won't see much 2+ armor in 1000.

3. Id say swab a squad of meltas with flamers and charge that tank for Anti-cover sake, you'll find that very useful against nids and orks and alike.

4. I would take a hellhound or any of it's variant, but that's just me. I'm mentally attached to my tanks. :)

just my thought.

[Nemaros]

Well, that's interesting, cos the previous game I played was at 750pts.. and I was trying for a flamer/melta theme.. I only had 2 squads of vets.. both with flamers, company command was meltas, and I proxied russ vanquisher (Probably a mistake lol) and a Bane Wolf, however, damn machine curse tied up my bane wolf the entire game, 2 chimeras went down still in deployment zones, and the russ went down with krak grenades on the 5th turn?
It sucks.. but due to lazy friends, the only person I play at the moment is ThirdDanScoota and his Space Marines

So, needless to say.. I lost *sighs*

[[Chosen]]

Go for regular russes, and have only one flamer flat..

For my local tourny, I know I'm gonna play against marines, so I pack loads of AP3 and AP2.

[Nemaros]

Should I keep the Heavy Flamers on the Chimeras? or doesn't it make much difference either way

[Dragoon]

Heavy flamers are best suited if you are planning on moving towards the enemy army, since it has no to hit, will go through all non marine armor, and ignores cover. It takes a bit of setup though.

Heavy Bolters are best suited to a chimera that will stay back for most or all the game if things go as expected. since the range is much better than that of a Flamer.

[Nemaros]

Okay.. After much consideration, and some reviewing of the Tactica and all comments made by respective parties... They helped a lot :]
I've settled down upon,

HQ.
Company Command w/
Medic
2 x Plasmagun
Chimera

[165pt]

Troops
Veteran w/
3 x Meltagun
Chimera

[155pt]

Veteran w/
3 x Meltagun
Chimera

[155pt]

Veteran w/
3 x Flamer
Chimera

[140pt]

Fast.
Scout Sentinel w/
Lascannon

[45pt]

Scout Sentinel w/
Lascannon

[45pt]

Heavy.
Medusa

[135pt]

Leman Russ Battle Tank

[150pt]
________
[1,000pt]

Any major flaws so far? O.o

[Brother Wolf]

Am I the only one looking at 35 guardsmen @ 1000pts and thinking that is just horribly wrong? You can fit 110 guardsmen in bare ass naked for under 600pts!

Ok, taking a step back, I'll offer a few thoughts now that I have spent some quality time with the new codex;

HW Teams still have the same flaw they always did, too few wounds to protect all that hardware. However, what they did gain is a DECREASE in cost/weapon. It is cheaper to take each HW in said squad than in a normal squad. Of course, you're still paying a premium for the squad, (10pts more for 4 fewer bodies), but it's nice to see the overall cost effect. For those crazy few who wish it, you could bring 10, TEN, heavy weapon squads along w/ 2 minimum platoons for under barely 900pts. Still 110 bodies , (115 if you count command), before hardware, (well, you still have 30 mortars at that point). At 1500 you could feasible have 115 bodies firing 30 heavy weapons, w/ platoons combined using First Rank Fire and picking the choices HW to us Bring It Down.

Crap, I have a meeting to get to. More on this later. I still say far too few bodies, even at 1000pts.

[ThirdDanScoota]

How would you personally create a Mech list at 1000pts, Armand?

[Brother Wolf]

To be blunt, I wouldn't. I'm not comfortable with a Mech list until 1750, but that's when Chimeras ran 93pts each, not 70.

Still, let's consider for a moment HQ + 1 Platoon + 1 Vet (40 bodies) vs. HQ + 3 Vets (35 bodies). Vets cost 10pts more for 5 less bodies, but every body hits 16% more in the shooting phase. They also have 1 less order/turn they can give. This is 25% of your points base cost @ 1000. Now Mech, we have 5 Chims vs 4 Chims, so already the vet list is saving 70pts, putting it 60pts below the non vet list. In any case, we've spend over half our points on Chims & core troops without upgrades. With so many Chims, there is no need for AP firepower in the bodies, so we can focus on AT firepower or disregard entirely and get that from other vehicles.

My point is, at 1000pts you are sacrificing WAY too much to try to run Mech. If anything, 1000pts should be your cor infantry force and as you breach into the 1500-2000 mark you begin adding the mechanized assets to boost mobility and firepower. Fortunately, in 5th, you no longer need to add a transport to EVERY unit, but it lacks fluff not to do so, (if you're specifically going for Mechanised Infantry, like Armageddon Steel Legion). Otherwise you may as well focus only on transport for the command units and allow them to shuttle troops.

Speaking specifically to this list, the one thing the current codex has brought forward is a way for IG, as a horde/pie plate army, to single-handedly negate the Biker Nobs build. This list, in many ways, almost gift wraps a win for the Bike Nob build. Far too few bodies, not enough templates, not enough firepower. A Biker Nob build would crush this list like a beer can save for a single lucky roll from the Medusa or Russ, (and you'll only get one roll as you'll only get one turn).

And why give vets Flamers? The Heavy Flamer maybe, but 3 Flamers on a unit you're paying a premium on better BS for? Makes no sense. Shakes & bake maybe, (Flamer,2xMelta), but not triple. Everyone is entitled to build forces however they like, my rule is not absolute. It just seems to me that the only reason to go short on bodies is for going heavy mech, (max Russ, min troops). Otherwise, (Light Mech/Airborne), you need more bodies and you should really consider the list you want to try at higher points, but start with mostly infantry & some vehicles at 1000 and build towards the max vehicles at 2000.

It's say shoot for 55-75 bodies at 1000 with some mechanized, (Command Chims, light tanks/Sents), and push out to full mech by 2000, (more transports, more tanks to taste, etc).

[[Chosen]]

It just seems to me that the only reason to go short on bodies is for going heavy mech, (max Russ, min troops). Otherwise, (Light Mech/Airborne), you need more bodies and you should really consider the list you want to try at higher points, but start with mostly infantry & some vehicles at 1000 and build towards the max vehicles at 2000.

Thank you.

Anyway, on topic, I agree with what Armand brought up, thou I like to add the following. You need to focus on what youre trying to so with low pts games, if youre going for speed then you're not doing it right for 1000, right now, this list can go down like a WWI sniper can go stray. You will be seeing stars when you loss one or two chimeras on first turn on so, then loss your medusa, and then have your bodies shreded down.

Youre looking at right now, transports for 4 units including your commander. I don't like taking transports for HQ's and units like vets period, it's expensive when you buy them for everyone, and obnoxious when they start dying.

I do agree with above when said that you don't have to buy transports for everyone, that's true. At 1000, you can only take stuff for what you get them for, no wasted points and no point sinkers.

[Waterbizkit]

I think you can build a light mechanised list at 1k points, but I will say that it can be difficult. I haven't run through anything specific as of yet, but just crunching the numbers in my head I have managed to fit fifty or more bodies in a list with nearly ten vehicles. And yes, it is at 1000 points.

Scout Sentinels are key in my opinion because the idea at this level is massing fire and expecting things to go up in flames. Avoid heavy armour of any kind. This is difficult enough to build concentrating on light mech, never mind the heavy treads. And while I love them, I would avoid Valkyries as well at this point. They are good value for points (in my opinion) but not worth it until at least 1.5k.

Basically, if the armour costs anything close to 100 points or more then just avoid it at this point in time. The new Guard have tons of solid & cheap armour choices, no need to go heavy unless that's what you want.

Anyway, haven't had time to give this much thought so excuse the poorly thought out post. Hope it helps anyway. :)

~Bizkit

[epicenter]

Mechanized Guard have always been a pretty unforgiving list type for the IG - if you're losing you might want to try a mixed foot/mech Guard unit or foot.

There's a couple of things I wouldn't do with the new IG codex:

1) Take the medic out of the command squad and save the points. While he's handy, you can buy like two plasma guns for the cost of that medic. With two more plasma guns, you can kick out a lot of plasma shots in your command squad (remember, they'll all be able to shoot from the top hatch in the Chimera) - the firepower of the plasma guns is generally better than saving wounds with the medic. Alternatively, use the hefty number of points somewhere else.

2) If you're going to take flamers with Vets you as might as well do the Heavy Flamer + Two Flamers trick.

3) I'd strongly suggest dumping the Medusa. I think it's only real utility is armed with Bastion-Breachers and using it to snipe Land Raiders and similar AV13-14 (except for Monoliths).

4) I'd go with Waterbizkit's advice and dumping the Leman Russ as well. If worse comes to worse, with Armored Sentinels, the IG now has Chimeras that trade their infantry carrying capacity for carrying various heavy weapons - especially lascannons and plasma cannon. The latter is pretty attractive if play against Marines and they don't have vehicles.

5) Is your Marine opponent really running a Land Raider at this points level? If he's not, you don't need many more lascannons than you have now - I'd personally move the lascannon scout sentinels into a single squadron - this isn't really a problem as it might sound. With Imperial Guard BS being what it is, you'll be firing them at the same target if you want be able to hit with one "on average" anyway. This will free up two more FA slots. You might want to consider Missile Launcher sentinels for dual purpose (the blast in 5th edition is pretty nice, and on average it's about as reliable as the krak against Marines) or if you can splurge, get pair of plasma cannon Armored Sentinels.

6) If you have comedians who like run Assault Marines, even at 1000 points, the Bane Wolf is tempting. That thing is FILTHY against Space Marines. Fast vehicle with a Marine-killing template. By the way - a little hint with Bane Wolves - put in a multimelta. I know this sounds idiotic, since given the nature of the chem cannon, you can fire it and the hull heavy flamer after moving at Fast combat speed. But it's a trap. Given the insanity of 5th edition wound allocation, you'll find your Space Marine opponents will stack all the chem cannon wounds and more will live than if you just fired the chem cannon alone - with the multimelta, they can't game the wound allocation. If worse comes to worse, you can also have a Fast multimelta carrier (sure it'll miss 50% of the time, but still).

[Aquila]

Given the insanity of 5th edition wound allocation, you'll find your Space Marine opponents will stack all the chem cannon wounds and more will live than if you just fired the chem cannon alone
This never occurred to me... thank you so much for the warning! (And of course for the ability to do it myself!:))

By the way, not to nitpick, but there's no such thing as 'Light Mech' and 'Heavy Mech.' Mechanized means all troops in transports, not just lots of vehicles. Tank-heavy is Armor, not heavy mech.

[Waterbizkit]

By the way, not to nitpick, but there's no such thing as 'Light Mech' and 'Heavy Mech.' Mechanized means all troops in transports, not just lots of vehicles. Tank-heavy is Armor, not heavy mech.

The man makes a good point.

Someone get the paddle.

"Thank you sir! May I have another!"

~Bizkit

[[Chosen]]

By the way, not to nitpick, but there's no such thing as 'Light Mech' and 'Heavy Mech.' Mechanized means all troops in transports, not just lots of vehicles. Tank-heavy is Armor, not heavy mech.

Mechanized does not require all troops in transports, only fluffy army requires all units in transports. Army can be mechanized AND effective without having everything in tranports. It just saids that the army is on WHEELS.

Bizkits army is typically ligh-mechanized because of the relatively low armor value that the tanks have, also the speed in which they operate in. My army is the ultimate Heavy-Mechanize, it maxes out russes and heavy artilleries, with infantries in cover with protections WITHOUT transport.

Nice twist though. >.<

[epicenter]

This never occurred to me... thank you so much for the warning! (And of course for the ability to do it myself!:))

It's cheesy and nasty and unless you play only with a small group of friends and houserule the wound allocation, sooner or later people will do it to you. Probably much sooner than later.

You as might as well do it to them first.

[Nemaros]

Okay.. played another game, got steam rolled this time -.-

Took

HQ
Company Command w/
2x MIssile Launcher
[80pt]

Troops
Infantry Platoon

* HQ w/
Vox Caster
[35pt]
* Squad 1 w/
Commisar
Vox Caster
[90pt]
* Squad 2
[50pt]
* Squad 3
[50pt]
* Squad 4
[50pt]

Veterans w/
2x Meltagun
Flamer
[95pt]
-> Chimera w/
Multilaser & HF
[70pt]

Fast
Armoured Sentinel w/
Lascannon
[70pt]

Armoured Sentinel w/
Lascannon
[70pt]

Heavy
Basalisk
[125pt]

Leman Russ w/
Battle Cannon
Lascannon
Plasma Cannons
[205pt]


Now, I took the 40 infantry in one squad, I found out pretty quickly that was a mistake, though they did succesfully hold my objective for the game (So it was effectively a draw)
The only unit to actually cause any damage at all to the almighty Spess Mehrines was the Basalisk, immobilised and shook the Predator Annighalator, and killed 5 Marines.. Was aboutt he only thing left alive by the end of the game too.

Was thinking of just dropping mechanised ideas for now.. taking a bassy and a medusa w/ Bastion Breachers, otherwise just 2 Bassys'.. I realise that having no GL's in my core infantry was probably a mistake, the Land Speeder just waved hello and kept on travelling :/

Even though the HQ was quite fruitless in their efforts, I liked how they worked, so I think I will be chucking some Lascanons in there, and hopefully put more Heavy weapons teams around him.
Is there any point in combining squads at all?

New list I'm looking at has Hq w/ 2 LC's
2 platoons both with 2 squads w/ GL
2x Veterans One with AC one with LC
1 Heavy weaps team with ML and another with AC..
I'm not too sure wether it's worth bringing the russ.. it's been nothing but a waste of points so far, and the sentinels missed all but 1 shots, and it rolled a 1 for armour penetration <_<

Also, is there any point in shelling out the extra points for Armoured Sentinels in a 1,000 point match? I only did so cos I took the models for what I thought was a 1,000 point army, to find I was 100 points short (Hence the Plasma Sponsons and a few other useless things.

I'm thinking it might be a bit heavy on the AT.. but consdiering how much trouble I've had bringing down Dreadnoughts let alone the predators he just bought, so I guess I'm just paranoid

I know I've been dragging this topic out quite a bit, but I dunno wether ThirdDanScoota is actually getting things right, but I seem to be losing worse every time :(
All advice is appreciated, cos I have no idea where to go from all of this

[epicenter]

There's a few things I'd do differently in making your list. It almost seems like you're trying to make a list to give your opponent wins. You probably also need experience with the game and the IG. They're not as forgiving as Marines, and listening to advice without truly understanding why people are telling you to do things is a recipe for disaster.

Onto opponent specific experiences you should ask yourself:

* Armored Sentinels were there in your mechanized list to maximize the amount of AV12. You're not running mechanized anymore. Drop the Armored Sentinels to normal ones or drop them entirely. What did your Sentinels do during the battle? Did they fire their lascannons at Space Marine with AV12+? Or were you firing it at infantry? If they were firing at infantry, you probably have too much anti-tank and should consider something else instead of Sentinels.

* What did your vets do during the battle? Did they shoot their flamer and meltaguns at Space Marine infantry or did they use their meltaguns to kill a dread/tank? If they were shooting meltaguns at infantry, you want to get three plasma guns instead of two melta and one flamer - single flamers are more meant for some utility against muppets, not killing Space Marines. Meltas are best used against vehicles. Plasma is the weapon of choice if you're killing Space Marines. In case you're tempted, don't do flamer + 2 plasma guns. Your Space Marine opponent will just game wound allocation and you'll kill two Marines (sometimes one if your flamer is positioned/rolls especially well and the lasgun fire is good) with four plasma gun shots even though you caused 3-4 plasma gun wounds.

There's basically two camps of Imperial Guard players when it comes to playing against Space Marines. Weight of fire ("Who needs AP3 when I'm throwing 50 shots at him?") and AP3 and better packing ("I'd rather have a few troops who can drop Space Marines than have him make 50 armor saves"). Like most IG players, I compromise - I take some weight of fire in my units and some Marine-killing goodness.

Your new list:

HQ
Company Command w/
1x lascannon
Vox
[75]
Rationale: You can't take two heavy weapons in a Command Squad. Lascannons are more effective than Missile Launchers against armor.

Troops 1
Infantry Platoon

* HQ w/
3x Grenade Launcher
Vox
[50]

Rationale: Cheap and Cheerful, these guys even at their inferior BS can spam Krak grenades on things.

* Squad 1
1x Lascannon
Vox

* Squad 2
1x Lascannon

Combine Squad 1 and 2 to get one vox for two lascannons. These guys will be surprisingly effective with "Bring It Down!" orders.

* Squad 3
1x Autocannon

* Squad 4
1x Autocannon

Squads 3 and 4 are general fire support. Autocannons are good against Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts cannot wholly ignore them. They can also be combined if need be to run over to some objective and sit on it.

[260 for all four infantry squads]

Troops 2
Veterans w/
3x Plasma Gun
Chimera Transport (Multilaser + Hull Heavy Flamer)
[170]

If you were running your Chimera with Extra Armor, realize that's a lot of points to ward off just a single damage result on the new chart. Compare to two destroyed results on the chart. Save the points. There will be times you wished you had Extra Armor, but I don't think those times are worth the points you pay for EA now.

Heavy Support

Basalisk
[125]

Leman Russ w/
Battle Cannon and Hull Heavy Bolter
[150]

Leman Russ with Plasma Sponsons: Why? This enormously expensive tank can either fire its main gun and one other weapon because it's turret weapon is Ordinance. Put a lascannon or a heavy bolter on there and leave the sides bare. You could stick sponson heavy bolters on there, but at this points level, I'm sure you can find better uses for the points elsewhere.

Total: 830 points

This leaves you 170 points to spend elsewhere.

You'll notice that'll neatly give you enough points to afford another Vet Squad armed with plasma guns in a Chimera. This would be my suggestion - they're solid, shooty, and with proper positioning (rear shots) they can hurt Dreadnoughts and Predators. Paired up with the other vets, they can neatly burn down an entire squad of Space Marines in a single turn. While less multipurpose, you could also arm them with meltaguns if you're very worried about armor.

A nastier option is to get another Company Command Squad and load them up with four plasma guns and haul them in a Chimera. The extra plasma gun over the vets will allow even more firepower at the expense of a scoring unit. Again, pair up this CCS with Chimera vets to burn stuff down and the CCS in the Chimera can even help itself and the vets out by issuing Orders. You'll have like 5 points left over, though. Use it to give some autocannon squad a grenade launcher or something.

You can also use it to buy whole other Leman Russ tank for double the AV14 pie-plate tossing goodness and have some points left over.

You could also eliminate the Basilisk and get two Leman Russ tanks - this will put a lot more stress on the Space Marines to deal with the AV14 as there's now two. You could do this by buying the CCS+Chimera option and downgrade the CCS from plasma guns to meltaguns. Again, this will leave you like 10 points left over, enough to give both autocannon squads grenade launchers.

[Nemaros]

I know that I'm new to the Guard, and I've never played Marines either.. previous armies were Dark Eldar and Tyranid, the two sentinels were shooting at a predator anighalator for the entire game.. not a single heavy weapon was fired at infantry I'm not that stupid (yet)
Veterans were stuck behind a Leman Russ that exploded, and due to cover issues spent the rest of the game re-maneuvering around.

Marine player brought 2 predators 1 w/ full lascannons and another with AC & HB's..
Also a razorback and Land speeder, the terrain was a bit open I guess, so neither of us could effectively hide armour, which meant with his annighalator and 3 Missile Launchers, all my armour went down ridiculously quickly, I would love to field a mech list at 1,000.. but I don't know whether I'm doing something horribly wrong, or it's just genuinely unviable :/

I apoligise for mis-reading the CCS entry for HW's as well.. I thought it said replace any 2 veterans instead of any other 2.. oh well, did nothing all game anyway :P


I had my CCS firing 2 ML (illegal :S) on BiD orders, the Battle Tank w/ LC, Basalisk & Both sentinels firing at that predator annighalator, and all I managed to do was immobilise it, and where it was, it could pretty much view the entire board.. so was that a mistake? too much wasted firepower? Or am I just cursed with the dice

[epicenter]

Firing lascannons at Marines is perfectly acceptable provided there's nothing else to shoot at or if the Marines are no longer in a position where I can ignore them and shoot at armor. I do it all the time. I fire missile launchers and lascannons at Space Marines pretty much every game.

As far as shooting the Predator - you mention shooting it all game. Were you trying to destroy it or just shake/stun it? As a rule, I usually just aim to shake/stun Predators. Once those things can't fire, they're not good for much except tank shocking.

You may need more cover on your board.

Gameplay, without a certain amount of cover or "4th edition cover" (ie; where it's very easy to see the enemy), the game very much becomes a question of who goes first, which isn't very fun. Either he goes first and kills your Leman Russ and whatnot or you go first and kill his Predator.

With the list above and the way your games sound, it's basically essential to get first turn or bring two Leman Russ tanks. If you get first turn, BiD on his laspredator with your lascannon squads. If you can kill it or shake it and keep it from firing, ignore it until the next turn. Once the laspredator is out, he's going to have a very difficult time taking down your Leman Russ as his lascannons are all in the same basket.

Autocannon can kill Razorbacks and Land Speeders pretty quickly. Once you start shaking/stunning his stuff, move on. Once you have it in that state of perma-stunned/destroyed you can start moving your troops forward or just pound his Marines until you can swing your Chimera-borne troops to plasma the remnants and get them off of objectives.

[Nemaros]

Okay, to be very specific..

He got first turn.
On my first turn, I started with my illegal HQ :S BiD fired my ML's at the Pred, both hit and failed to damage, Sentinels both missed, Leman Russ scattered, and Lascannon missed (By the way, I only took plasma sponsons cos I found out I had miscalculated my army by about 100 points, and I only had what I brought, so I had to proxy whatever I could to make up for it)
Basalisk hit and got a weapon destroyed.. but I rolled for ordnance again and got Immobilised (Should've just stuck with wep destroyed)
Second turn, 1 sentinel and Leman Russ down
Command Squad had to take down the Land Speeder that was getting very close to my bassy, Second sentinel fired at las pred, finally hit but no armour penetration, Bassy fired again and missed
Third turn, Second Sentinel down, 1 ML in CCS down, Veterans finally navigate out of terrain (stuck on edge of board behind the destroyed Russ) and pop smoke, Bassy fires and Shakes it, so I have 1 turn of peace before the end..

I also have a few general knowledge questions?
When I get a weapon destroyed result against his tank, do I get to choose which weapon? Do Sponson weapons get destroyed individually or do you lose both at once?

Also, and probably the most importantly.. do people normally disembark the veterans to fire? or do they just fire out of the top hatch?

[epicenter]

* The Ordinance roll is to penetrate, not on the damage table. So Ordinance helps you penetrate the enemy vehicle, but doesn't actually change any results on the damage table.

* The attacker decides which weapon is removed. Sponsons are removed individually.

* You'll have to get a feel for when to disembark vets to fire or not. Usually I keep them in the Chimera. While the "Vehicle Explodes" result is likely to wipe out your entire squad, that and the pinning result are the only ones that will really harm your troops. They have to get out to shoot if the vehicle is stunned or shaken - or at least that's how I've always played it. At the local GW store, they play it differently - apparently as passengers shooting out of fire points aren't crew and the damage table suggests the vehicle is firing, so they allow the passengers to continue firing even if the vehicle is stunned/shaken.

[Nemaros]

Handy to know with the Ordnance, perhaps those Battle Tanks will actually do something next time, I've decided to try out your aforementioned list.. seems a little more stable then what I've used recently :P

[epicenter]

I'm not sure if you've ever heard of the IG rule of "Go Big Or Go Home."

It's an axiom that I don't think has changed since ... a long time for the Imperial Guard. It hasn't changed in 5th edition.

The idea says that if you're bringing some vehicle, you should always bring none or 2+ of them. It works out that most armies have difficulty handling multiples of any vehicle. In particular, AV14 is difficult to deal with for most armies in any quantity. That Las Predator might shake or kill one Leman Russ, but it can't do anything against the other. Missile Launchers can glance on 6s - just ensure the frontal armor is showing. The autocannon predator can't do a thing to your Russ from the front. Close meltas or flank shots using missile launchers can harm your tanks though, so be aware of that - you may want to trade in your Basilisk for another Leman Russ. I wouldn't do two Basilisks with the lack of cover your table appears to have (I suspect you're hiding your Basilisk behind your Russ).

Always shoot the tanks with the lascannons first. If you keep a tank from firing the next turn, you can pretty much ignore it until your next turn's shooting phase - you don't have to destroy it. You just need to disable it enough so it's not shooting at you next turn (that's basically 4 of the 6 results on the damage table - so you're pretty likely to get it).

Ordinance loves Space Marines - shoot your big pie plates at the Space Marine infantry as much as possible.

[Nemaros]

I figured as much for the above, I've been trying to work on lists with 2 russes.. so far I have

CCS w/
LC
Vox
[75pt]

Vets w/
3x Plasmagun
[170pt]

Vets w/
3x Meltagun
[155pt]

Platoon Command
[30pt]

Platoon 1 w/
LC
Vox
[75pt]

Platoon 2 w/
LC
[70pt]

Platoon 3 w/
AC
[60pt]

Platoon 4 w/
AC
[60pt]

2x Leman Russ BT
[300pt]

Does it seem sustainable, or doomed to failure like the rest? lol
Not sure, haven't had much time to think about it..
Trying to think what I can use in a 1,000 point Dark Eldar army in the mean time till I sort out this one :S