View Full Version : Retreating units and their damage output/knockback.
17th Jun 09, 1:19 AM
Ok, so retreating units take only 20% ranged damage, but 130% melee damage, and 100% damage from grenades. This might, or might not be a good mechanic, but it was discussed back and forth already.
Retreating units are also immune to suppression and most knockback effects, and people (including me) have been arguing they should be immune to all of them, and also some other crowd control like Entangle or Phase Shift.
What this is about is retreating units DOING ranged damage, and knockback themselves. I think the same modifiers should apply here. Retreating units should only put out 20% of ranged damage, and do no knockdown and no suppression. Obviously, they won't be putting out any melee or grenade damage.
Isn't it silly when occassionally you force that Shotgun Scouts to retreat, only to see them run past your Shuriken Platform, and while resistant to it's fire and suppression, knock it back with their Shotguns and force it to resetup, which can actually end in you losing the encounter?
There's a popssibility they wouldn't even be able to do that if they WEREN'T retreating.
17th Jun 09, 1:46 AM
I don't think retreating units should shoot at all. When you're legging it because some horrid creature or some impossible situation scared the poo out of you, you are not going to even be thinking about aiming your gun at other targets - just getting home ASAP!
In the TT game they could shoot but I think that was giving a retreating unit some kind of final act because in that a retreating unit will retreat untill its off the edge of the board....and gone for good!
As for the 130% melee damage they suffer, I would prefer that to only be applied as they move out of the melee group they're engadged with. While running and foes are smacking them from behind while trying to keep up, I would prefer that to be at 100% damage.
17th Jun 09, 2:02 AM
I don't think retreating units should shoot at all
Actually, I was thinking that too. That would solve the knockback problem also, without the need to add extra modifiers and such, and it would be quite immersive too.
The melee damage change you suggest seems hard to implement though.
17th Jun 09, 6:03 AM
I agree, bringing a razorbacks behind 2 sm squads of missile troopers though a wall I was expecting to maybe lose it but to do some damage with the tac plasmas inside, out pop my tac plasma and the other guy hits retreat, which happens to be behind my razorbacks... his marines run straight for them, stop for a second for ai pathing to get around and launch missiles blowing my razorback up while taking no losses to any of his squads.
Used correctly you could actually hurt an enemy army bad on the retreat as a skirmish tactic with ranged troops.
17th Jun 09, 11:17 AM
I'm in favor of this.
Retreating units have given up their battlefield presence to hightail it back to base. They shouldn't be causing casualties while receiving defensive bonuses.
Let's not get into the Retreating bonus melee damage. That's not being discussed here.
17th Jun 09, 11:27 AM
This could be a good change. I've seen retreating shotgun scouts do a number on enemy squads as they're running for their lives, which is pretty funny but not very realistic or fair.
I am grateful that their shotguns keep any overpowered-on-the-retreat melee swarms from wreaking havoc on my guys when it's time to go, so that should also be addressed if this is going to be weakened. They're not really separate issues, IMO. If the damage output of retreating squads is to be reduced to nothing, then the threat posed to them should also be reduced.
17th Jun 09, 12:48 PM
I agree, bringing a razorbacks behind 2 sm squads of missile troopers though a wall I was expecting to maybe lose it but to do some damage with the tac plasmas inside, out pop my tac plasma and the other guy hits retreat, which happens to be behind my razorbacks... his marines run straight for them, stop for a second for ai pathing to get around and launch missiles blowing my razorback up while taking no losses to any of his squads. Used correctly you could actually hurt an enemy army bad on the retreat as a skirmish tactic with ranged troops.
Considering that MLs require tacs to be stationary to fire, I don't see how this could happen. I've never seen tacs retreating, even when the pathing causes them to stop, fire a missile.
I really don't see a problem with it. In order to to hit anything, you'd have to be in between a unit and its players base, which is unlikely in most scenarios, and even then, its only for a couple seconds and subject to FotM accuracy penalties.
Having retreating units be able to be knocked down and be affected by abilities is annoying, but in the vein of the 130% melee, Relic obviously wants there to be some penalties for retreating off. You should not be able to escape every engagement with no losses just by pressing "x".
The corollary to the above point is that it gives players a chance to deal damage to units with "one-shot" abilities. GU, stickbombas, Kommnado, Warlock, etc... all can't just spam their abilities and then quickly retreat offwithout there being at least some danger or at least a way for the enemy to counter it and punish them for it.
17th Jun 09, 1:19 PM
Missiles dont have a setup time, telling marines to move forwards then backwards they can launch a missile they can also machinegun fire from buildings because of it, they should have a .1 second setup time or so to stop it.
Currently a unit changing direction hits a stationarystage before it starts moving again and can shoot, some nid abilities have this problem they are effectively fire on the move.
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