AI Improvements in 1.4

[Buguba]

So with the advent of 1.4, it looks like a lot of units are going to be shaken up and the gamestyle is going to be changed around. Obviously, the AI will have to be tinkered with to conform to the new game style.

So my question is, can we look forward to any better skirmish AI with this next patch? It's obvious there will be improvements for vehicle pathing, but I'm talking about overall computer intelligence during a match in terms of attacking, defending, capturing, etc.

Moreover, what do you guys think about the current AI? Does it still need an upgrade? Is it satisfactory as it is?

Personally, I think the current AI is good (a drastic improvement over the shoddy AI at initial release), but I think there is still room for improvement. I wouldn't mind having "Hard" be a challange and "Expert" being truly insane.

As it stands, I put the AI on "Expert" when I want a fun match, but I would never expect it to match competitively with me in any way.

What would you guys like to see out of the AI in 1.4, if we can look forward to any improvements at all?

[General Stukov]

I don't know.. I think it could use a huge improvement when it comes to countering certain threats... it seems that all races seem to steer clear of vehicles but none really attack with any Anti Vehicle support... they even go so far as to avoid it on the lower AI.. even Hard will go out of its way but if I put 3 Razorbacks at 3 choke points in the map they wont even try to get past... never getting AV, only more anti infantry as if I'm suddenly going to change my mind...

Their built in, "Well lets not be too hard" has made everything but expert mode a joke.. Seems I can use all races successfully against any opponent in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3. Now I know I'm not the best played, heck I just recently started exploiting the comp's need to avoid vehicles unless pressured by then at their base...

The computer in DoW2 improved much in the feeling of the AI, like someone is actually playing against me which I love. I love how computers have tactics of their own, they take up the "Build tons of units and harass the enemy with 1-2 units capping points where needed until the units are fully built for an army".

I think they are doing something for the better, no matter what units are in what tier they are all viable to tactical play-styles

In some odd way I like it but I believe it could do with some updating. Don't let me exploit it so easily 8)

[Squiq]

i think the AI will be changed to some degree to match 1.4 but i dont think it will be AI we have now because relic spend the most time on turning the gamestyle and balancing the multiplayergame because most people will go to MP and very few stick with skirmish

the current AI is good for me as it is, i still have an goal set to defeat the AI on expert
hard is to easy for me but expert is more difficult for its quick T2 while i am still in T1

[eldritchweather]

I m afraid that the AI still sucks. I usually kill all enemy units just with the hero and a squad of banshees or something. I m starting to think that the AI will never get fixed because of the scaled down battles.. DoW1 AI was vastly better but due to the fact that it would gladly waste so many resources and still outtech you in insane difficulty. I m not sure this could happen in DoW2 unless relic increases the amount of resources the AI gets as bonus.

[Vertrucio]

I really enjoy comp stomps. It's basically like playing a co-op game. They can be quite fun and way more relaxing than PvP. It feels like friendly rivalry rather than in your face brutal competition. Win or lose you don't feel bad as you would if a player had beat you down. But, there isn't much point to playing skirmishes or comp stomps when there's really no challenge beyond the AI getting a ton more resources.

Also, a while back they already said they were committing to upgrading the skirmish AI after they looked at the player usage data. It showed a significantly higher number of players were more interested in co-op, skirmish, and online comp stomps. We'll see if they own up to that.

Beyond just AI improvements, Relic should consider investing in modes similar to what they did for CoH: Tales of Valor. I would seriously pay money for (you guessed it) that DotA style mode, a more in depth and involved co-op mode, and other PvAI modes.

[Dilopho]

I think the (expert) AI in its current state is Ok. A player which uses AI opponents wants to play for fun and not against something with korean micro skills or something that spams like hell..
For me the expert AI of COH is a bad example, because its almost undefeatable through spam and ressource advantage. Such an implementation is useless if almost nobody is able to hold the lines for a while.

[Chewin_gun]

Eldar AI is insane ,hard to beat but highly vulnerable to setup weapons.
Tyrannids AI is good enough because they're OP anyway.
SM AI is average not really challenging to play against.
Ork AI is really really bad.

So If u have played Eldar against the AI all this time it's like playing in easy mode.
For a good challenge u HAVE to play orkz against Eldar on expert.

Finger crossed for a good 1.4 AI for ALL the different sides.

[Eriatis]

The AI is better that it was, but it still has too many shortcuts at this time
Once you know them, you can win easily.
The most obvious is that a zone covered by a setup weapon is like "disabled" for the AI, so you can easily lock some parts of the map
On some maps, with 2 HB/shuriken plats, you can "force" the AI to go on a single way and ambush it.

[Pseudonymn]

^ That's the hilarious bit. When playing Annihilate games vs the AI, I've done some experimenting with just how 'afraid' of setup weapons it truly is. More often than not, rather than sending in a jump/teleport unit to tie it up the solitary HWT I've left blocking one choke point for the entire round, the AI would rather storm the other path out of its base where the rest of my entire army is waiting in cover to slaughter anything it sends out - usually piecemeal units one or two at a time. The lone-HWT should clearly be the weaker link, but it chases the path of sure death time and time again, especially the commanders.

[mashimoro]

Yup, I once tried using just the Techmarine, building turrets at all key junctions to win against Eldar expert AI. It was really funny, cause I had only the TM and a single scout squad vs the entire Eldar army. I ended up building turrets to the max popcap and for the rest of the game, was just strolling around the map doing turret maintenance.

Another problem I've noticed with the current AI is their sudden suicidal tendency to go attack your HQ and get shot to pieces. I've observed this happen quite a few times and it baffles me everytime.

For 1.4, I think they can afford to make expert level a little harder, it puts up a decent fight, but usually by the midpoint of the game, I've got the VCs under control and am just waiting for the remainder to countdown, thats where it gets pretty boring and I bring in Termies just for fun.

[WhiteDeVile]

The AI surely is better than before, but its still far from being decent, the expert AI seems like a "a little bit harder than normal" one, and after a few skirmishes, theres nothing new to expect, the AI is using the same units all the time, in the same ways, no matter the race combinations.

And if you know what you're doing, you just cant lose, its nothing compared to W3's 'insane' AI, with which you could actually lose if you made a few mistakes or microed very badly.

[Ceorl]

I'd agree that the AI is improved but I would still like to see work done. As with the W3 comparison, its AI (on a game seven years old no less) is a better challenge.

The current AI just doesn't seem to understand when to cap a point and when to fight. Too often my units land in enough blows to force a AI unit to retreat having only taking scratches in return fire.

All that said, I understand that Relic's focus for this patch in on multiplayer (and presumably any affects the change will have on single) so AI tuning will likely need to wait.

[Pseudonymn]

AI is their sudden suicidal tendency to go attack your HQ Wow, yes, that's both funny and irritating. The worst for it seems to be the Lictor. It's the first thing it does in just about any game I've played against it. Right off the bat, rather than capping points, it'll march itself straightaway into my base, get shot to bits, and immediately retreat back to its base. It completely wastes the first 2 minutes of play, at least - not accounting for its stupidity in other areas.


make expert level a little harderBy 'harder', I hope we can all agree that this does not mean buffing the AI's resource rates. I want smarter AIs; not spammy, cheating AIs.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There hasn't been an AI yet that can match a player. Smarter AIs are always the goal, but it never hurts to have cheating AIs for people who want a challenge.

[General Stukov]

For a good challenge u HAVE to play orkz against Eldar on expert.

I did, it wasn't, can I go home now? computers are so afraid to lose units that sometimes they wont even sit in if they know they're winning, I like the retreat rule but I feel computer's use this too cheaply. No tactics involved tho I will say I am smarter then the expert AI and more tactically sound as I've had several years of RTS gameplay before DoW2..

My favorite tactic to use against them is to have an ASM squad jump in, do its abilities and retreat off, when the horde of enemies follow they run into two squads of HB Devs and shotty scouts which do a decent job of keeping melee off my HB's.

Honestly I agree with TheDeadlyShoe, there isn't a comp that can mimic a player's thoughts yet, at least in commercial applications (YET!) but I do think a healthy mix of cheatery and skill could improve the AI greatly.

I'd rather have them attack more (my troops instead of base) then try to constantly steal my resource points away from me... eh on the plus side I'd love to do some more comp stomps online. Anyone interested, drop me a PM

[Pseudonymn]

There hasn't been an AI yet that can match a player. I don't think anyone is asking for the impossible here. Just a little more spit and polish is all.

Ideally, AI along the same lines as that demonstrated by the DoW: DoS AI mod would be fantastic. I never felt the AI was cheating (even if it was) because I was too busy trying to stay one step ahead of its game plan. I never felt that I was playing the same game twice against it, especially on larger maps with more bots. Game deciding moments could occur anywhere on the map, the outcomes were always different, and I was never assured of victory.

It was insanely addictive offline fun! Enough so that I once had an 8p FFA marathon on Burial Grounds that lasted for nearly 5 hours.

The stock AI in both DoW1 and now DoW2 are nowhere near that level of sophistication. But I hardly think that it's not achievable, given what the DoS AI mod team showed us. Relic really should have given those boys (and gals?) jobs.

[Cadian Guard]

sophistication? all the AI does in DoS for me is spam anything with a jump pack...

[General Stukov]

while some AI's are more important, some kinda falter. It took quite awhile of understanding AI mechanics in DoW1 for improvements to be made and the release of mod tools..

I am sure they will get a retooling soon but as far as now, hopefully you aren't aware of certain exploits (if you are you read these posts) and are able to play the game rather chaotically as the comp seems to... not do...

[Pseudonymn]

@Cadian Guard:
And isn't that just what human players would do, given the right conditions? You were probably massing troops that are squishy to melee units. Especially if all you play as guardsmen where, yes, I too have seen an abundance of ASM and Stormboys. I guarantee you though, the AI will mix it up as you vary your own tactics. I found that playing on larger maps was especially beneficial to keeping the AI's responses 'fresh'.

[Angelskin]

The AI is not always so dumb. I have seen some good flanking moves against my shuri plats on green tooth jungle.

About vechicle counter:
The eldar AI builds quite a lot of bright lances to counter vehicles. (even if there is't any :D)

[General Stukov]

About vechicle counter:
The eldar AI builds quite a lot of bright lances to counter vehicles. (even if there is't any )

True... tho I think that's just stupidity on their part. I've never seen a BL out when I've had vehicles out... they always seem to try and take my units out with it which is ironic cause I used to have the same thoughts when I first started playing the TT. my first race eldar.

[Buguba]

There hasn't been an AI yet that can match a player. Smarter AIs are always the goal, but it never hurts to have cheating AIs for people who want a challenge.

I agree.

I think the problem right now is that the "hard" and "expert' AI don't cheat ENOUGH. They're still rather easy to steamroll if you know what you're doing.

[Steel*Faith]

AI Improvements
• Vehicle operators avoid heavy weapons with setup times
• The AI now evaluates the demand for weapon upgrades as the value gained against the enemy army
• Improved squad responsiveness when threatened

These changes sound pretty good. Hopefully these changes will make AI teamates smarter, and make comp stomp more enjoyable.

[deanofantastico]

not just comp stomp, if a player drops out in a multiplayer match and u get some retarded ai u will be crushed like a ripper that had a titan step on it. so increaing their brains will help to some extent nad yes im with you Steel*Faith on the comp stomp possibilitys on angel gate

[Facelessone]

increasin their brainz will add to lag.

[deanofantastico]

good point although it may be a risk cuz if they are brainless then they wont be of any use if a player drops out and u will 7 times out of 10 lose where as the odds of lossing wud decrease if the AI knew how to pull the trigger or how to train a unit and if they are stupid it will be a walkover in compy stompy

[Facelessone]

The ai better not lag.

My game began laggin heavily after patch 1.3.

And btw,what is better,losing a lost game or playing a lagging game?

[Steel*Faith]

My game began laggin heavily after patch 1.3.

My game hasn't changed since the beta. I don't think AI has anything to do with your problems.

[Facelessone]

omg,jsut play 3vs3 in skirmsh and check.

[Buguba]

omg,jsut play 3vs3 in skirmsh and check.

A lot of it has to do with your computer, honestly. I have problems on 3v3s too, but I think that has more to do with the vast number of units than anything else. If your computer is scraping the minimum requirements, I wouldn't be surprised if you got lag in 3v3s, AI or not.

[Facelessone]

i did not have lag before 1.3. I have lags in 1.3 nomatter if i reduce graphics

lags intesify when hovering over power nodes and the hq.

I check the process monitoring and the my cpu usage as gone to 100,90% for no reason.
When in 3vs3,if i anhiliate all the ai's,the lags disappear before the " you are victorious' appears.

My rig is not that good but it is dual core and runs the game on high to medium settings.

[Vertrucio]

The AI could use some more cheating, but not in terms of resources. I wouldn't mind if the AI could check up on what the player was building or get some extra vision to allow the AI to better plan out how it will attack or what it will build.

This better gives the illusion of a player seeing certain enemy forces and reacting to them.

[kasimmorathi]

Cheating AI is the best kind of AI. I'd also be nice to be able to assign different types of AI.

Tech
WAAGH
etc.

Tech being the enemy that prefers to play it sort of soft at first and tech up as quickly as possible to spank you with high end units. The WAAGH that just enjoys charging huge masses of units straight at you. It'd be nice just to set up comp-stomp games against an AI that just wants to die. See which player gets the better kill score or simply survives well in it.

I'm a fan of the defensive style of play, so obviously I think more about the above. ;)

[Cadian Guard]

i find it ironic that we want a opponent that does cheat....thats kinda like wanting a opponent in Counter Strike to no clip...

[Pseudonymn]

Jeebus scraps on crackers! WTF! :wtf:

How can anyone have played the DoW1 Skrimish AI mod, then play vs the DoW2 AI, compare the two, and come back and say that what we need is a bot that cheats more? I'm just floored. I'm appalled. I just... I ... god... something just died inside of me, and I think it was my faith in humanity's ability to reason and think rationally. :banghead:


I'd also be nice to be able to assign different types of AI. DoW1: Dawn of Skirmish AI mod would like to have a word with you.


lags intesify when hovering over power nodes and the hq.wtf does that have to do with the AI? Oh, wait, you just answered it in the next breath:

When in 3vs3,if i anhiliate all the ai's,the lags disappear before the " you are victorious' appears
Because you frickin shot all the units dead and now your PC doesn't have to spend so much CPU time rendering them! Hurrrrrrrrrrrr. Durrrrrrrrrrr. :banghead:

[Buguba]

How can anyone have played the DoW1 Skrimish AI mod, then play vs the DoW2 AI, compare the two, and come back and say that what we need is a bot that cheats more? I'm just floored. I'm appalled. I just... I ... god... something just died inside of me, and I think it was my faith in humanity's ability to reason and think rationally.

I never referenced your post... so I never compared the two. Unless you're referring to someone else?

From what I remember of the DoS AI though, the harder difficulties cheated pretty significantly as well. AI cheating is simply a fact of life. I agree that there's a lot that DoW 2 could do to improve its AI on a physical level. However, letting the AI cheat more is one of the best quick-fix solutions available that gives the most benefit. Quick, obvious results without having to do strenuous tests.

[Pseudonymn]

^ there've been several comments to that effect in this thread and elsewhere, so apart from the specific comments that I took particular exception to and addressed in my post, I was speaking more generally. Yours was not one of them.

I do get what you're saying though and I believe that I acknowledged earlier that that DoS AI mod does indeed cheat. However, it did it with an AI that was sufficiently robust such that it was able to mask to those cheats with really, really fun game-play.

Cheats may be the quick and dirty fix, but that can only be stretched so far before it becomes obvious that the AI is cheating. Going from hard to insane, for instance, is a dramatic buff in the AI's resource cheating, often allowing it to produce and deploy T3 units by the time I'm just entering T2 on a rush-to-tech.

It's that kind of bullshit cheating that I’m talking about where a better AI would make the offline experience more enjoyable. DoS AI made the actual battles more interesting and there was real variety in what it did (large maps particularly). Sure it cheated, but the battles were sufficiently distracting that I didn't notice it as much as I did the stock AI's tendency to spam units at rates that I knew it didn't have the resources to sustain.

DoW2's stock AI has proven to be no different. It's equally spammy and thoroughly unsophisticated in the way that it does battle.

[Cheesenium]

The AI needs to get gens earlier,as teaming up with one of the AI,they slow your teching down as most of the time,they dont get gens in early game.

Thats probably my major problem with the AI.

[LarkinVB]

DoS AI mod is cheating the same as vanilla DOW AI (resource bonus at harder/insane). This part was never touched. Difference between vanilla AI and the mod is like comparing the abilities of a 5 and a 10 year child.

DOW2 AI I can't comment on as I do not own this game.

[the_hunger]

Originally Posted by Buguba
I think the problem right now is that the "hard" and "expert' AI don't cheat ENOUGH. They're still rather easy to steamroll if you know what you're doing.
I agree. To me, "expert" really feels like a "hard" or a strong "normal" AI. I would be fine if "expert" and "hard" difficulty granted the AI a faster resource and zeal rate. Part of the issue is the structure of the game. Unlike DoW1 where the AI could build several units simultaneously from several buildings while teching at the same time, DoW2 requires that all units come from the same building queue, along with tier upgrades. So even if the AI had x100 the resource rate as the player, it could still only build one predator or fire prism or Nob squad at a time. Thus, unless the build time for units and teching was greatly reduced--which would REALLY feel like AI cheating, the AI can only be so much of a challenge.

Anyhow, I think that the current AI is pretty decent and a vast improvement over the original one. Of course, it still occasionally makes goofy decisions and can be exploited. Still, it can usually put up a solid fight on "expert" difficulty (some races are better than others). My biggest complaint is that the AI does not use its special powers too effectively. I would love to see the Orks use Rokks or for SM to drop some Termies or a Venerable Dread now and then. However, it just never happens since the AI is content with spamming its waagh and zeal on lesser abilities.

EDIT: I would love to see some modder (Thud & Arkhan?) improve the DoW2 AI. The vanilla AI in DoW1 was a complete loss (it seemed to get worse with each expansion) until the Dawn of Skirmish team refined it. Now, it is the best AI that I've played against in any RTS game (and I've played a lot of them).

[Croaxleigh]

This is neither the place to talk about hardware nor the Skirmish AI mod for DoW. Please keep the discussion on-topic concerning the DoW2 AI in 1.4.