Plasma devastators

[MasterBlaster]

with the new changes and on most new maps plasma devastators are worse then ever.

That is to say they are WORTHLESS

They hit themselves
They hit your own units and they almost NEVER EVER actually hit the enemy.

Every other single artillery type unit in game either.

Passes through objects(eldar dcannons do this they can shoot down inclines and through walls as can bl)
OR they fire in a arc that doesnt end up hitting a peice of dirt that is 1mm higher then the rest of the ground UNLIKE Plamsa Devs.

Except for predators.. they happen to hit anything in the way aswell.

Which leads to fun times

Currently on some maps say vs eldar, fireprirms can sit on a ledge and stand there and you cannot no matter what you do disloge them.

They fire from a ledge through the ground at your units.
Your own tanks Plasma Devs cannot hit them because there shells explode on contact with the ground.

Either all artillery needs to act the same one way or the other.

OR ALL MAPS HAVE TO BE 100% flat
and explosion decells causing cover needs to be removed.

A Plasma Devastator team on or fireing OVER a explosion decel on the landscape hits it and either kills themselves(200% damage to there armor timef rom explosive.. how lovely)
or doesnt hit the target.

[BurnedToast]

Welcome to the fun of using the looted tank.

[MasterBlaster]

The loota has the same problem as the pred I forgot about that...
Still means they need fixing, and orks at least have rocket barrage from tank bustas which actually go up.

SM has no counter to a enemy thats on the high now using weapons that shoot through the ground.

[Buguba]

Agreed 100%.

It's completely retarded that objects (the technical name for the actual tank shell, plasma bolt, or whatever that's being fired) don't pass through terrain. It doesn't even make realistic sense. If you're going to shoot uphill, you shoot UP.

EDIT: The actual problem with this is a game engine problem. Currently, objects and weapons all have a ground "hit rate" that determines the frequency they hit the ground when fired (eg, Devastator HB rounds can be seen deflecting off the ground sometimes).

When the weapon counts a "miss", the ground hit rate comes into effect. Generally, with artillery and tank weapons, we don't see the weapon "missing" in the same way a bolter does because it still hits the ground and causes a damaging explosion from their AOE data. Infantry weapons, which don't have AOE, will simply display a pre-programmed graphical effect.

The problem right now is that when the weapon counts a miss against a target (which is actually pretty frequent, Plasma Devs have only 25% accuracy against most infantry), the object will hit the ground. The problem is that, if the ground happens to be the hill directly in front of it, the object will collide with the hill and the explosion will still take place: obliterating the squad and any nearby troops.


I'm not sure enough about the game engine to know how to fix this myself, but I think there's a way to make objects pass through terrain. However, this is problematic because the basic structure of the weapon relies on hitting the ground.

Basically, these weapons either need 100% accuracy to function correctly, or misses will simply phase out of reality if they are forced to avoid hitting the ground. That, or they need to have all their friendly fire damage removed. That wouldn't fix the fact that they're still not hitting enemies though.

[konfeta]

So should the Plasma Cannon be given an arc?

[MasterBlaster]

yes or made instant, dcannons do this.

I would say make them instant but drop there damge vs infantry by half or 1/3 what it is now.

[motiv]

I would certainly not make them instant as the diversity of the game is in jeopardy.

The more we make each faction, like another we lose the point to live.

[MasterBlaster]

well currently there not worth building and if you do build them you can even kill yourself or allied troops in probabilties over actually the enemy.

[Galain]

I don't think Brightlances can shoot through terrain...

[Buguba]

I don't think Brightlances can shoot through terrain...

They can. D-Cannons and Brightlances don't fire "objects", so they're not jeapordized by the terrain.

Plasma Cannons, Predators, and Looted Tanks, however, do.

[MasterBlaster]

I think he is thinking of walls and buildings which the gameengine classes units on the otherside untargetable.

Were talking about things that units can normaly shoot over, or elevation such as being at the top of stairs on some maps, brightlance can fire down though the ground while a plasma dev cant fire up or down without hitting the ground.

and the 25% accuracy doesnt match, a plasmadev put at a spot will Always hit the ground no matter what if its on stairs shooting down.

[Buguba]

and the 25% accuracy doesnt match, a plasmadev put at a spot will Always hit the ground no matter what if its on stairs shooting down

I needed to be more clear in my post then. Plasma Devastators will ALWAYS hit the ground regardless of whether the shot technically misses or not. Whether the bolt "hits" or "misses" the target is usually irrelevent because the real damage done is from the explosion that the shot causes. The explosion occurs the moment the object hits the ground.

Like I said, we typically don't realize this because the game engine has modifiers in place that determine the trajectory of "objects" in movement. These modifiers typically allow the plasma bolt to hit the ground close to the squad they were firing at anyway. If terrain is in the way though, the bolt will instead strike the terrain rather than the area around the squad, causing the problems you've described.

Removing the plasma bolt "object" and instead replacing with an FX (like with the D-Cannon or Brightlance) would solve the problem. The shot would be instant, and more reliant on accuracy rather than its travel speed, but I don't think it matters that much. Better to be reliable than to be diverse and non-functional.

[Troubleshooter]

What ever the type of "object" a missile (from a ML) is, should simply be copy/paste to Plasma cannons. I've seen missiles 'track' targets around corners and up inclines.

[Buguba]

What ever the type of "object" a missile (from a ML) is, should simply be copy/paste to Plasma cannons. I've seen missiles 'track' targets around corners and up inclines.


That's because missiles have 100% accuracy. They don't ever hit the ground against vehicles because they never need to; they always collide with their target.

Missiles will hit the ground if you shoot them at regular infantry though. You just won't notice much because it doesn't have AOE damage.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I don't see the problem. Plasma devs are extremely effective, to the point that they were slightly nerfed this patch. Sure, you need to mind the terrain and friendly fire, but that just helps make it interesting.

Any drawbacks the plasma cannon has are more than outweighed by the benefits gained from being able to garrison buildings, a drastic advantage for vulnerable artillery units.

[MasterBlaster]

really?
so a unit that kills itself with its first 2 shots is ok?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

You're using it wrong.

[MasterBlaster]

Ohh well do enlighten me in how exactly to forsee when it will hit the ground and make it not happen.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Don't place the devastators so that they are shooting the ground in front of their face. It's a matter of judging sight lines, it's not subject to any hard and fast rules.

As I said, buildings help a lot.

[Buguba]

You're using it wrong.

I think it's more than that, DeadlyShoe. It's not intuitive that plasma devs can't shoot up hills, and, if it were a balancing measure, then the plasma dev should automatically not fire if there is potential for it to kill itself against a hill.

I think it's pretty obvious that this is a bug. The fact that it can garrison is offset by the plasma bolt travel time and that it does slightly lower damage than D-Cannons.

[Vintage]

No the OP is right. It should not break whenever it is near stairs or terrain. It should be able to shoot through it. Same thing with D-cannon black holes. It is really stupid and game breaking when you want to shoot something but the stairs makes the round explode on your face.

[MasterBlaster]

Shoeman
Sorry you get an Epic fail in the class of Knowing what your talking about.

Mate go use a plasma dev

Bug and vintage, they dont have to shoot up stairs they even explode over flat terrain if there is a crator decel there(ones that cause light cover to form)

Back to shoe
use a scout squad to throw a grenade infront of the dev to cause a crator
the plasma dev will now hit this creator.
When they fire and hit it they hurt themselves and throw themselves back
reset up
fire again
and can hit the new crator they just made with there next shot
hurting themselves again.
IF they sit inside the crator(light cover) which every other unit in game can they hit it almost 100% of the time.

it now only takes 2 plasma dev shots to kill them.

[Vintage]

Well either way it needs to be fixed. Anyone arguing otherwise just quite simply doesn't have a clue. It is a matter of fixing a bug that makes a unit useless in many situations. Even if it is not a bug it still makes the unit useless when put in unavoidable circumstances. Fix it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I've used Plasma Devastators many times, including several times since the beta patch, and I've never had the least problem. I don't know about craters per se, but I've had them sitting in decal-cover many times.

And I'm not so awesome at placing plasma devs that I've been able to avoid this by skill.

Replays, perhaps?

[Frigidair44]

Making it an instant hit? Nope, nuh uh. Fix the problem... let it shoot at an arc. But part of the flavor of the weapon is that it shoots an object that doesn't really aim that well.

But when it it hits it hits hard.

I can't tell you the number of times I got pissed that my Looted Tank hit terrain, especially in battles where it could of made a difference.

Fix the bug. Don't change it to an instant hit or allow it to shoot through terrain.

[Carl]

don't know about craters per se, but I've had them sitting in decal-cover many times.


He didn't say it was an isue when they're IN the decal cover, it's an issue when theres any decal cover between them and the target.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I refuse to believe I've never shot through decal cover :P

[Pithlit]

@Deadly:

Hey, seriously?
Do you think that we all are lying on purpose to you, making these problems up?

Plasma devs always had the problem of hitting themselves when there is something ity bitty between them and their target.
Its now just so much more worse, that their damage is upped much against them and their mates armortype

And yes, i have that problem, too when playing sm and using them not on the green

[Pocktio]

Do you think that we all are lying on purpose to you, making these problems up?


I've never. EVER. Seen a pdev hit itself. Friendlies yes, all the time.

Keeping on saying the problem exists is all well and good but at the end of the day till you post up some proof you're wasting your time.

[Buguba]

Keeping on saying the problem exists is all well and good but at the end of the day till you post up some proof you're wasting your time

Try the Looted Tank big blast ability sometime. It does about the same thing.

I can't say that I myself have seen a plasma dev hit itself either, but I can believe it. It's perfectly feasible game engine-wise.

[Troubleshooter]

I've never seen P-devs shoot themselves.

I just saw them shoot my entire tac mass and hero though! (Replay going up in a minute)

The damage they do + AOE + Heavy armor makes P-Devs the new WTF unit of the game. If you use them to support your troops, they are just as likely to kill their own as they are their targets, which makes them very sketchy in the "skill to use" department. Add in the complexities of terrain on some of these maps, the tight firing lanes, and the speed of the most juicy targets (who are closing with your now highly plasma allergic units) makes it unnecessarily complicated to use them effectively.

Having said all that, when you need them, they still work... but you have to be veeeery careful about how you place them.

All in all, they are still useful, just more risky than they should be.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I can't say that I myself have seen a plasma dev hit itself either, but I can believe it. It's perfectly feasible game engine-wise.
In both COH and DOW2, projectiles seem to ignore cover that's close to them. I might believe terrain could be causing some self immolation, but the notion that cover is doing so is just way off. And yeah, I'm not prepared to accept it without a replay.

[Troubleshooter]

The only way I can see it happen is if the PDev is at the edge of an incline and his target causes the shot to strike the face or "lip" of said incline. Either way, thats readily avoidable... but when you're units are moving on that incline... no matter where that PDev is planted, your units are in the hot-zone.

[Pocktio]

Or if the unit is tracking a target and the pdev turns and aims at a big wall as he fires...splat.

[Buguba]

but the notion that cover is doing so is just way off.

I'm not sure about the cover decals either, I'd probably have to see that myself too.

I was talking more about hills and the like.

[MasterBlaster]

throw a grenade and stick your plasma dev in the decel and tell it to shoot something(dont aim for something high or a vehicle but infantry)

they hit the incline themselves.

It also happens when they are just fireing over it.

Also stick them behind cover like bushes, they can hit the bushes and themselves yet again.

[thrillskr]

Should i also mention here that they can be utterly useless on rafinery map where theres a wee bit of higher ground in the middle where ALL THE SHOTS explode instead of hitting anyone grabbing the vp or just behind that thingie. And nids instagibthropes and eldar gibcannons dont have that problem, so why can everyone else use their artillery effectively and sm can't ?. Same with Angel gate, what good is a unit that can only be placed in selected spots or they wont hit a thing ? Oh, and yes - they can shoot themselves in the face, just put them on the stairs at the bottom power node and tell them to shoot up.

[Chris]

I am encountering this problem more and more often with barbed stranglers.

Unless I feel like building a fuck-ton of termagents for crippling shot spam, a BS warrior brood is an excellent weapon for locking down those banshee/slugga abusing arseholes... IN THEORY. I have noticed on many of the new maps that my BS shots are simply hitting terrain features/cover and doing absolutely nothing. This is 110% game breaking because you will only get 1 shot at charging sluggas/banshees because of their speed. When that 1 shot evaporates into thin air, your only option is to retreat EVERYTHING and watch your gen farm get destroyed in 10 seconds flat.

[Steel*Faith]

So should Plasma Devs get an arc'd shot, like the Tactical Missle Launcher used to have?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Chris: Barbed stranglers have always been worthless against charging units. :|

[Chris]

I've never really had too many problems with them before, I think reducing their range was a bit of a dick-move by Relic, considering the shift in the meta-game to "SUDDENLY, MELEE UNTS!"

[FooF]

I agree with you Chris, the shorter range doesn't help because by the time it goes off, the Shees/Sluggas/Horms whatever are already on your troops. If they're going to be a support unit, they need to be able to hit the charging melee units before they reach your lines.

The faster projectile was a good move but the shortened range was not. Increase range, keep the fast projectile (maybe increase cooldown a tad to compensate?) and we'll have a very good unit.

[OVFellblade]

I haven't personally had that problem with the BS. I have had problems feeling guilty as it insta-suppresses an entire army every time they move to engage me :p