Tarantula Spam?

[Andromines]

Playing a ranked 3 v 3 as Eldar, with Tyranid teammates.
We were up against 3 Techmarines on Siccarus Plateau. After some early skirmishes, we lost some map control and were regrouping in our respective bases. Returning to the VPs with some T1 infantry, we found that EVERY VP had 5 to 6 tarantula turrets in a ring around it. Upon inspection each techmarine had been able to build 6 turrets in a very short amount of time. These turrets supressed our t1 infantry, and we had to retreat. The next step was unclear however. With the new 125 power to tech to T2, a wraithlord or falcon to break through the defenses was a ways away, and we had literally nothing with which to destroy the turrets. The VPs ticked down, as the SM players began to power harass with their armies, as the VPs were totally secure on their own. Without vehicles, we had no way to kill the turrets and ended up losing the match. I am only TS12, so did I miss an obvious solution, or is this a balance issue with the Techmarine and his defensive powers? Positive feedback/criticism is appreciated.

[Aquila]

The 'new' techmarine has been frustrating for me as well. A well placed turret with its blind spot against a wall can be impossible to dislodge in T1. If you lose that initial skirmish and the techmarine manages to get a turret up on where your power should be... you are quite screwed.

1v1 I don't think its a big deal because you've got so much more map to go around, and you can pretty much ignore it. But in 3v3 its a very different story. With 2 techmarines turret creeping towards your power its a game breaker.

[[oGs]Shadow]

I find that really really hard to believe. If they even put just 3 turrets at each VP, 1 from each commander that would have set their whole army back really far not only in teching but the time to do this would have been vast. Where your armies just snoozing at your base? provide a relay becuase you shouldnt have had any problems getting out a wraithlord or carnifex to deal with the problem. I encountered a 3 eldar strat that involved them building webways behind our HQs on some forest map and then warpspiders and banshees MELTED our HQs rediculously fast. there are plenty of new strats being discovered and sure some are OP but until i see the replay i can only assume your team didnt play well and react with the proper counters

[Saberdark]

A well placed turret with its blind spot against a wall can be impossible to dislodge in T1.I'll do you one better: Placing a turret on each persons base in the new circular 3v3 map. Had this used against me earlier, and it is impossible to fight in T1 (as SM at least).

Yeah, I've been finding turrets to be really effective now. I think maybe the problem is that there is no real counter to them except vehicles, and since those take a while to get now, turrets are incredibly resilient.

[konfeta]

5-6 turrets each? You are exaggerating.

That's 1000-1200 req and 150-180 power per Techmarine.

[whatsleft]

a TM can lock down an area with a large amount of turrets or just smart turret placement.

i guess this is mainly because nades are nerfed against building armour, tarantula got buffed since it doesnt get insta gibbed by nades anymore, so its really tough to take it out with just small arms fire since everything gets suppressed.

changing its armour similar to generators will probably get this straightened out, making them not too durable or too flimsy.

[Shakrith]

DragonBuster,

Exactly. I was playing Eldar and this happened to me, and there was nothing I could do to kill the turret but throw Guardians at it, because I had no power source to tech from (I'd been locked in my base!) and I just had to sit there and die. Turrets seem impervious to small arms, and suppress Banshees too badly for Eldar's only non-power AV to work.

[PzyCow]

@ Shakrith

The banshees arent AV untill you invest power in them, not good atleast.

[MasterBlaster]

even basic shees do decent damage to turrets.

[Troubleshooter]

even basic shees do decent damage to turrets.Regardless, its a pretty damn big problem for eldar if they get bottled in while still in tier 1.

I think as far as maps go, set up weapons of any kind on certain maps are just as bad as turrets, but obviously turret armor makes them game winners in the new extended T1.

[MasterBlaster]

yeah
maybe in specific circumstances
problem is
thats a small % of the time
the other % of the time turrets are crap and not worth there cost.

not even accounting for all the bugs.

if they are op in special cirumstances they need a big change not a nerf because they are still really worthless alot of the time.

half there cost but make them do half the damage/no suspression/but have 360 fire arc.
most important of all large vision and stealth detection.

I could see the turrents working as a low dps non suspressing detector.

They would then be disposeable you could use them as forward markers to see which way an enemy army is comming etc.

Yet they would still offer some extra firepower for your troops.

[Troubleshooter]

the other % of the time turrets are crap and not worth there cost.I disagree... I think that turrets are always worth their cost now.

The question isn't even about whether or not they need cost adjustments IMO, its strictly a tweaking problem. In other words, I don't pitty players who get turret spammed (not even when it happens to me :p ) because the TM "earned" that turret by winning some fights and should be rewarded with some TM building action! ;)

No, for me the question is do you reward the TM with area denial in the form of massive/unassailable supression with modest killing power up close which buys time - or do you give him a turret that is good at killing things but is easier to counter when left unguarded?

The problem with turrets (if any) is that you can generally leave them all alone and they will continue to keep units away from something for most of tier 1 because countering them isn't a cost-effective activity (VP's are ticking off, and killing one turret takes about as long as it takes to save up for the next one.)

I'd rather have turrets be more deadly but require some added support to maximize (like HBDevs) so that the TM isn't just camping half the map with automated turrets while he does other things.

I guess I want turrets to be more of a defensive fortification in the way Devs in buildings are - hard to remove, deadly, but counterable when unsupported in simple terms of putting the right units with the right abilities in the right places.

This is why a "rear armor" would be ideal for turrets, because getting behind one should be its own reward. This would seem to reward jump troops and some melee units unfavorably, but then a second turret in depth or HBDev covering that rear arc would change things a bit. So the idea is that the TM can risk a turret on good placement and enemy failings or he can sink req and energy into keeping it really strong and making it stronger by way of added investments.

As it stands, turrets with support are still not good at killing things, and because they dont really kill things as much as keep them going elsewhere, supporting a turret is a waste of time and man-power. This dynamic encourages "fire and forget" turreting that becomes more of an exercise in nusance turrets rather then "defensive" turrets.

I really want the TM to have a solid defensive flavor, not just lol-turrets.

[Hunlow]

I'll do you one better: Placing a turret on each persons base in the new circular 3v3 map. Had this used against me earlier, and it is impossible to fight in T1 (as SM at least).

Yeah, I've been finding turrets to be really effective now. I think maybe the problem is that there is no real counter to them except vehicles, and since those take a while to get now, turrets are incredibly resilient.

i had the exact same thing happen and as a nid player effectivly put me out of a 3v3 game. i dont think this is a turrent issue, this is totally a map issue. on any other map there is the option to go after other reasources or tag team with your other teammates if you are cut off from a resource. maybe they can make the entrance to all bases a no turrent zone? i think this is a neat trick but very unbalanced

[Bombstarter]

i had the exact same thing happen and as a nid player effectivly put me out of a 3v3 game. i dont think this is a turrent issue, this is totally a map issue. on any other map there is the option to go after other reasources or tag team with your other teammates if you are cut off from a resource. maybe they can make the entrance to all bases a no turrent zone? i think this is a neat trick but very unbalanced


Why not just link the allied bases with a back entrance. This way they would have to simultaneously turret all three entrances in order to lock a player out.

[Saberdark]

Lets move the discussion of the map exploit to it's own thread (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=229286) so as not to intrude on the discussion here.

Yeah, turrets are always worth their cost (unless of course your opponent has tons of AV). I find myself building quite a few of them over the course of the game, and I used to never do that. The cost does seem about right though. Trouble is spot on with them needed to tweak how they work.

[Aquila]

I find that really really hard to believe..... Where your armies just snoozing at your base?
Let me give you a very simple scenario. You're playing whatever in a 3v3 map, and you get 'doubled' by an enemy techmarine who attacks your lane with the help of another army. Very likely you won't be able to hold them both off since you don't have HBDev's yet (not enough power). You do the smart thing and retreat, and the techmarine immediately builds the turret to block off that lane.

Because that lane is virtually impervious to your army in T1 until you have Jump Troops, the techmarine is now free to help his ally on another lane. Because your turret counters don't show up until T2, it's a very difficult strategy to counter. Especially if they are able to get the turret close enough to your power node. It's not very difficult to do.

[Chris]

It's definitely a turret issue. Turrets can only be countered in tier 1 by a very small selection of methods, mostly using flame weapons (BUT ONLY THE RACES THAT BUILD TURRETS HAVE FLAME WEAPONS, GEE WIZZ). Getting behind the turret is only an option if your opponent is stupid enough to place it in the middle of nowhere and leave it unguarded. Turrets will lock down a significant area of the map FOR THE ENTIRE DURATION OF TIER 1. If that area of the map happens to be your power node then you may as well throw racial slurs at your opponent and ragequit because you wont be coming back from that.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I've found Vengeance Rounds to work pretty well.

Turret fire isn't actually very deadly, it is possible to push up under fire from a turret. In particular most techmarine/mek players don't manually redirect fire when they should so you can reap a lot of benefit just by manipulating autotargeting to slip most of your units through. And of course most good block areas are filled with useful cover.

[AlienHack]

the same hapened to me.
on a 2vs2 game me (tyranid) and a SM player went against 2 techmarines... well you guessed it. They immediately spamed 2-3 turrets each in 2 very important parts of the map... well nothing we had could face the turrets and win..

[Choongjing]

TURRETS SHOULD BE BUFFED.... yeah right...

[AneasPK]

1) dont let them build turrets
2) go behind them and destroy them
3) when they have turrets only at the vps so cap all other points and tech fast t2 if u cant kill them from behind ..
4) when they build so much turrets they have not much ressources left to build something else and u can own em easy
5) i still think turrets are a waste of ressources, Maybe 1 turret maybe good on some maps like argus to safe ressources and move army to another place

[Cheesenium]

Happened to me.

Damn annoying and it's pretty much GG with Nids.