ASM idea

[HiveMind]

The Idea
- Give Assault Marines a few AoE knockdown special attacks that trigger often, perhaps a circular swing of a chainsword or jumping on the spot.
- Reduce Assault Marine cost to 500/0.

Theoretical Result
Hopefully, this would make Assault Marines a capable anti-melee unit that fights by getting stuck in rather than delaying melee. Rather than fighting other melee units by matching their health and damage, they repeatedly knock them down to minimise incoming attacks. This fits in with the disruption role of Assault Marines while still allowing them to go toe to toe with other melee units for a reasonable price.

Against Slugga Boyz, Banshees, etc., Assault Marines would knock them down and wear them down while only occasionally taking any hits. Against ranged units, however, they would lose, even with their initial jump. Why? Because of their cost. If you have two ranged squads, the ASM hit one and render it useless while attacking them. However, their relatively low DPS means that the other ranged squad will gun them down while they attack the first one. If you blob together your troops the Assault Marines can disrupt multiple squads at once and render your whole ranged army useless, but who really wants attack move Tactical blobs to be uncounterable?

Assault Marines costing the same as Tacticals would make them a much more inviting option and let you get a squad straight off the bat, adding some unpredictability in games involving Marines. Being able to make an ASM squad straight off the bat lets you combat early melee, which means that your enemies have a reason to make ranged troops.

Of course, this is all theoryhammer, and may not actually work out, but I had the idea and thought I should throw it out there.

[Pocktio]

Reduce Assault Marine cost to 500/0.

Hello ASM blobbage.

Insanely OP. ASM right off the bat? Are you serious?

[Exo]

Yeah, half the idea almost seems good, but ASM have got to cost power.

Whatever happened to the idea of their jump packs as an upgrade costing power, and them starting as a foot slogger with tweaked values?

[HiveMind]

Ok, maybe not instant ASM, but they need to have a relatively low power cost so you can counter melee units early on. If they still cost 50 power, a few Sluggaz can take down your generators well before you can get your only T1 melee counter. But why would early Assault Marines be so much worse than early Banshees or Sluggaz?

[[oGs]Shadow]

honestly a jump pack upgrade is just dumb. for christ sakes the model has jets on them but they cant use em right away? just reduce asm cost to 500/30 and things will be fine. thats perfectly ok price tag(mind you HWTs shouldnt cost more than 15-20 power

[Zakkaria]

Just a minor input, but wasnt the whole problem everyone had with the asm's that they did their job as shock trops a little to well? I think adding a random stomp or knockback to that would just bring back the old problem?

[swizzle1million]

Er, just so you know Hivemind, ASM will lose to banshees 1 for 1, and 2 to 1 for sluggaz. Might even be a close fight 1 on 1 for sluggaz with waagh. They're not even remotely effective as a melee counter. *edit: and losing units through repeated knockdowns is a hugely annoying mechanic, and relic seems to have largely moved away from it in 1.4 (sorry, forgot to address that part before I hit post)

SM counters in tier 1 for melee are 1) well placed turrets/HBD's, 2) matching the melee's 1 for 1 with shotty scouts, 3) massed tacs. 4) apothecary with rites + purity armour.

All these except the tacs cost power, and if you go with tacs', you're not going to have much of a power farm (since you'll be scraping bottom for req). A mix of tacs + kitted out apo is safest, since it's a protected investment. Apothecary down? He'll be back in a minute, and you don't have to replace his wargear. Turret/HBD got flanked? Well... that was 200/30 or 250/30 well spent, wasn't it?

Don't get too used to it mind you, he'll probably be nerfed pretty soon. He's way too good as it stands.

[Ceorl]

I agree ASM need a buff, but I'd consider it as more a tweek really. Too much of an increase and we will back to the 1.3 days of ASM crushing near everything in their path. The OPs first suggestion I like, but I do think ASM need to cost power.

Problem is otherwise I'm just not sure the best way to tweak these guys at the moment.

[Zeroblizzard]

I have an idea: buff the sergeant (only), making that upgrade much more valuable, and make that upgrade cost 20 power. Make ASM 25 power (but then of course you have to buff/lower the cost of HWTs, etc).

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Isn't this what the concussive blow is for? :/

[Hirmetrium]

maybe 30 power is perhaps best? I think that would work out pretty well. Increasing melee skill to trigger more AOE attacks is a good idea too.

[swizzle1million]

Isn't this what the concussive blow is for?

Merciless strike? Never really gotten it to work for me. 30 energy with a 40 second cool down is pretty thoroughly prohibitive. Energy is the only real limiter for jumps, spending almost half a jump to knock down 1 or 2 guys...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Only a high level assault squad is going to jump twice during a fight, so you might as well use the concussive blow. It works pretty well for disruption, and 20 damage AOE is respectable.

[swizzle1million]

Suppose it depends how the fights going. Spending the energy means your next jump is delayed, doesn't necessarily have to be in the same fight. e.g.: You jump in to a ranged mass, he's pew pewing you, but you know he's going to have to retreat. Do you take a chance on the strike and hope to cause a couple of casualties, or do you save the energy so your next jump is ready sooner in case you hit a platform while advancing along his line of retreat?

I'm also not 100% sure how that AoE is applied. Is it around the sergeant? In front of him along the graphic line? If it's along the graphic line, it's probably better used to get melee off other units than in any fight the ASM started.

[Dux]

Suppression teams hard counters need to cost more power than suppression teams themselves. That's the whole point.

[BudgetMessiah]

Merciless strike will affect anything in melee around the sargeant, and anything along the length of the AoE wave. If you're fighting 2xsluggas with your ASMs, and you have a sargeant, you really can't miss. The big advantage is that, while you throw this, your sargeant is the only one doing his animation, the other 3 marines are still fighting. If you do an assault jump, it's almost twice as expensive, and no one can attack until everyone has landed.

That being said, 20 damage for a Tier 2 upgraded attack on such an expensive unit doesn't seem like a whole lot to offer relative to the delays and costs. Considering how effective shotguns and purification rites are at Tier 1, this should probably be increased.

Also, the power on the jumps is too expensive. It seems like this cost was introduced to keep ASMs from jumping repeatedly in battle. If this is the issue, lower the cost and put a cooldown time of 15-20 seconds on the jump. That way, it can only effectively be used once in a battle, but it will be available for the next fight as well.

[D-coy]

After watching some replays, I wouldn't mind if the ASMs were left untouched.

A pretty good guide for the FC and a replay pack worth watching (credit goes to Squiq who's directed me to this earlier).

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/portals.php?show=page&name=dawn-of-war-2-space-marine-force-commander-strategy-guide

Cheers

[Saunders]

Some people seem to have no idea what the true role of ASM are in the current build.

[swizzle1million]

Some people seem to have no idea what the true role of ASM are in the current build.

Oh, I know I know! To be chew toys for all the other less expensive jump troops!

Who was it who had the quote in their sig, 'ASM are the hard counter to your resource pool'? That sounds about right.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I always find ASMs worth it. They arn't as good at melee as other units but they are superior disruption troops. Great against ranged spam of all kinds - I get very good results from jumping into tac blobs then following up with an immediate concussive strike. Gives my other units (like HBDs or plasma tacs) plenty of time to set up and deliver the killing blow.

Meltabombs are also invaluable support AV. 1 ML squad cannot counter a walker, but 1 ML squad + 1 ASM can.

[swizzle1million]

Tier 1 ASM + tacs can only counter straight tac blobs if your opponent doesn't realize his 2 tacs can beat your ASM to death while your tacs pew-pew at his tacs. dps difference between tacs and ASM in melee is 5 per model. DPS difference between tacs at range vs heavy armour and tacs in melee is something like 13 per model, more if the fights in cover. Assuming a linear 2:1 ASM to tac ratio, the more ASM you have the worse off you are in the fight and the further you are behind in the race to tier 2.

And if he went tacs + HBD, and you jumped in on his tacs... oops, retreat. And he's got a huge resource lead on you. Flamer coming to raise your gen farm, and he's still up on you by a couple hundred req. (this scenario *does* hinge on a mistake on your part, but it's not hugely unrealistic. If he probes with tacs to goad you in to jumping in, and then falls back in to the HBD arc... good strategery, and good game. And if the HBD's in a buildng, you couldn't do much about it anyway.)

Melta bombs are pretty good, were awesome, and are overpriced. Should really be able to pay your 550/80 for a melta bomb equipped squad of ASM and be able to jump -> melta out of the box. See Warpspiders and their port -> haywire (which is better than melta's in every conceivable way) out of the box for comparison. I also really wish my ASM's would NOT immediately leap in to melee with that dreadnought I got them to melta. I mean, really, I appreciate the whole zeal and fury deal guys, but you're expensive to replace.

[Zephris]

Some people seem to have no idea what the true role of ASM are in the current build.

Well if your going to make a statement like that you could at least quantify it by saying what the "true role" is, rather then leaving it hanging.

[D-coy]

As I said, if you still have the beta by any chance, watch some replays form the pack I linked you to. It can be downloaded at the end of the article.

I'd say that their role is to loosen enemy formations and steamroll ranged troops. They also complement your FC greatly, which combined with BattleCry can make most troublesome Tier 1 melee units retreat with their tails pulled behind their backs. And as TDS said they give your Tacs time to shoot down troops and to set up.

[swizzle1million]

Should swap the FC's teleporter out for an ASM jump pack. Would up his cool factor by 10,000% and expand on his disruption abilities nicely.

[D-coy]

I'd still prefer the teleport, since it's instant, so it's harder to anticipate and avoid. But having a jump-pack option, yeah that'd be neat.

[Chris]

I originally thought ASMs were poop but through the course of the beta have decided they work perfectly well with combined arms, especially with the long duration of tier 1. Their jump ability combined with (multiple) scout shotguns allows for an unholy amount of knockdown.