[1.4.2] Vehicles and Tier 3

[Ceorl]

Simply put, walkers suck.

The, relatively, cheap cost of advancing to tier three (roughly the cost of a walker in fact) combined with the slow walker speed is a death sentence to them. Except in a few cases, walkers cannot shift the momentum of a game enough to halt development into tier three counters that crush them.

And this is not considering the large amount of AV that hits the field at tier 2. But once tanks hit the field its game for any walker in play.

Solution? Increase the cost to get into tier three say to 300/125. Many players (particulary Orcs) are teching into tier three and bypassing their tier two units because tanks are very cost effective currently. Half the reason I want the change is that so I have a reason to use Orc tier two units. Their AV, outside of the tank, is so poor that I often feel I have to fast tech in order to counter another fast tech. Yet when I have a reason to bring Killa Kans into play, and win with em, oh nowz that' a nice feelin.

[Aokin]

my understanding of walker units, or just the Wraithlord, is that utility is dependent on support and facilitation. Wraithlords are excellent units when Banshees can be used effectively alongside them, or Warp Spiders.

I suspect the problem is in part how effective tanks have become - their high speed and precision control makes them incredibly difficult to counter for some armies and those situations when, as you say, the Ork/SM has taken the opportunity to move into tier 3.

[Pocktio]

A speedy WL can really put the hurt on a slower enemy. With it's weapons upgrade you can keep it back as a support unit when more AV turns up. Either way you've forced the opponent to spend resources on AV which you can counter with infantry. I think your argument is flawed, walkers DO shift the momentum of a game but it doesn't make you instantly win. Of course after people get really into t2 walkers lose appeal as a game shifter but as stated - ranged options on them really do work. Dreadnought AC barrage, WL AV option.....then you still have the great CC options should the enemy try and advance on your other units - say you have a few setup teams. It makes it THAT much harder to take them out if you have a wraithlord covering them with a shuriken cannon and if you say 'AV is all over t2 lulz' then I say 'the WL is covered by setups lulz'. I've seen this done by a high level SM player. He had his army defending a point and the main defence was a dreadnought. It quite literally did shift the games momentum in his favour.

[craft-star]

Well I have a replay where we were loosing badly and my dreadnaugh won the game for us. Walkers are not worthless, you just have to know who you are playing against. For example nids, eldars have no serious counter against them. Even orks cant hold up against an early vehicle. The only real problem can be sm as most sm players will have a ml tac as soon as they hit t2.
But if you support walkers they can be valuable assets. You just have to remember they are not invincible.
Also walkers can quite easiley kill tanks. You just have to tie them up (jumptroops, shees, emp granade or something else).

[Ceorl]

Pocktio only two walkers have range upgrade options. Killa Kans and Carnifexes do not, which means only half the races can benefit from your stragety. And SM are limited by the fact that their upgrade is AI only. I will not disagree with your basic stragety on how to use walkers but would point out that, even so, tanks will crush this provided the player can gain the early map control needed for the fast tech.

In mid-level play, I have yet to see a SM player bring out a dreadnought, or HWTS for that matter, in 1.4.2 so I'm wondering if your example is an isolated case. I mean why invest in setup teams and a dreadnought when you can get plasma and MLs for your tacs at cheaper power cost.


For example nids, eldars have no serious counter against them. Even orks cant hold up against an early vehicle.

Nids do. Warriors with Venom AV and, along with Tac ML, are one of the two units that are great against vehs and good counters to both walkers and vehs. For Eldar the fact that no one is building brightlances in favor of other AV options seems to lend credit to my argument to delay an advance into tier three so players have an incentive to use tier two units. For Orks that plays into my argument. As an Ork player why speed the req on decent AV (Tankbustas) when I can use my tier one power to get map control and then fast tech to a good AV counter in the form of looted tanks.


Also walkers can quite easiley kill tanks. You just have to tie them up (jumptroops, shees, emp granade or something else).

The only thing that allows walkers to become tank killers is an AV disabler equipment. Only one faction, Eldar, have regular access to such a device in upgraded Warp Spiders. An SM player must use the tech hero or get lucky with the FC power fist special. Nids I don't believe have any such option, and I know Orcs do not. Troops do not slow down walkers because scripting path has them move outa the way of any advancing vehicle, otherwise they would be run over. Example, a WSE will have difficulty hurting tanks with power blades because the tanks can easily kite the WSE. Ironically walkers have a much difficult time (though they beat the WSE in melee) because they have no reverse.

I've won games with Ork lootas before but that does not mean lootas are a viable unit. The problem is that those examples are isolated cases where a specific unit proved useful. I would rather see walkers as a general purpose unit rather than something that occasionally gets deployed.

[D-coy]

I'll go as far as saying increase Tier 3 cost to 500/200 or 400/150. This way if someone reaches Tier 2 first, they will build some units instead of going for Tier 3 instantly, since skipping Tier 2 would be too much of a drain on your economy and would leave you vurnable to the other guys late Tier 2.

If the cost of Tier 3 remains the game will continue to feel like WA Chaos fast teching all over again.

[WhiteDeVile]

Too fast transition from T2 to T3 is indeed a problem, and a common occurence in 1.4.2, especially for orks who literally skip T2, sometimes not building even a single T2 unit.

So I agree with the cost increase, but I'd rather increase req cost heavily than power, because its req that is more important at that moment of the game, I always find myself with lots of power in T2, while im low on req.

Also all tiers upgrades time should take much longer, so that you'll have to actually defend yourself for some time while teching.
Instead of keeping the pace AND teching quickly to T3 to boost the assault with stronger units in nearly few minutes, which is how it looks currently.

Plus upgrade to T2 should be noticably shorter than upgrade to T3.

[D-coy]

Would a price of 550/150 be reasonable for Tier 3?

[Ceorl]

That's a monster cost increase. I'd have to say we'd need to beta test it, hehe, to see how well it could work out.

On the whole I like WhiteDeVile's suggestions though I'm concerned that high req costs but lower costs to advance into tier 3 will only encourage further spamming of units like Looted Tanks.

[tehzenmaster]

I'll go as far as saying increase Tier 3 cost to 500/200 or 400/150. This way if someone reaches Tier 2 first, they will build some units instead of going for Tier 3 instantly, since skipping Tier 2 would be too much of a drain on your economy and would leave you vurnable to the other guys late Tier 2.

I agree. T3 should be more expensive to give T2 more relevance.

[D-coy]

@ Ceorl

Uhm, wasn't my suggestion the same as WhiteDeVile's? I demand credit. ;)

But seriously talking, that was just an example. The goal is to make Tier 3 cost almost as much or even more then some Tier 2 stuff, so you encourage players to build those instead of advancing a Tier. I suggested a high cost, because if it's not high enough, you'll just wait 20 seconds and get to Tier 3 anyway. :p

[Ceorl]

Sorry, yes your ideas were similiar D-Coy :)

I was referring, in particular, to this suggestion:


Also all tiers upgrades time should take much longer, so that you'll have to actually defend yourself for some time while teching.
Instead of keeping the pace AND teching quickly to T3 to boost the assault with stronger units in nearly few minutes, which is how it looks currently.

[D-coy]

Yes, that was indeed a good observation.

Teching should have a hefty price, considering both time and resources to decrease the slippery slope effect for the losing player, which should result in more interesting matches.

[BudgetMessiah]

Actually, I think the longer teching times are what cause this problem. When you have nothing to spend money on for the time it takes to get from tier 1 to 2, you accrue more than enough resources for a quick jump to tier 3, which after another minute of not making anything, means a tank is in the chute.

I think increasing tech times is causing this. I think both tiers should be around 200/100 or 250/125, and take about a minute, but the power costs for a lot of stuff should be lowered and re-scaled.

They seem to be using power, partially as a cost for balance purposes, but more as a timing element. That being said, if suppression platforms are coming out at "time = 30 power", and jump troops are coming out at "time = 40 power", then that's a very narrow window (less than a minute) that platforms can really shape the battle. Rangers and stikkbommas actually come out at the same time as suppression teams as well, which is a head-scratcher. Stikks should come out later, or be at a range disadvantage if not, and rangers should have to pay more to trump a platform team instantly with kinetic shot (i.e. they cost as much as suppression, but receive kinetic and holo-field w/upgrade, and can always stealth).

Another difficulty is that T1.5 units require so much power that they cannot appear early enough to make a difference without painting a bull's eye on your back by requiring a full gen farm early on. At the point you can afford to build and successfully defend a gen farm, you likely don't need more T1.5 to keep doing it, just go for T2. T1.5 units should require significantly less power than they do now, needing less gens to be seen earlier, making them more attractive relative to teching up. If suppression appeared around at around 10-20 power (1.3.2 stikks and warriors appeared around this point), and jump troops around 30-40 (40/45/50 for storm/ravener/ASM currently in 1.4.2), you'd probably see a lot more of both.

This same sort of dynamic exists throughout, where you look at the cost and think, "Yeah, I would like to make this, but it's simply more efficient to just make 0-power cost troops and tech up". A combination of high costs and long research times, I think, are having a negative effect on game diversity. That's why we see so many mass melee or mass tac builds, with maybe a small investment in wargear or a specialty troop (jump troops/warrior/ravener/ranger), and a straight drive for T3.

Why pause for a dread or a falcon when the option for a pred or prism is comparably priced in "time", and much more attractive in requisition? If walkers and T2 units are supposed to be happening before T3, their timings with respect to power cost should all be looked at.

T2 vehicles should also come down a bit. Ork vehicles seem priced about right at T2 (maybe buff them a bit if everyone else's become available earlier), they're rarely seen because their T3 is also excellent and almost always available once T2 is reached, so why bother?

[D-coy]

Yes, one annoying thing is that researching a Tier occupies your HQ, so you can only reinforce or purchase upgrades.

[Zeroblizzard]

What if they dropped the energy costs to around 10/15/20 (say HWT are 15, Jump troops are 20) and then since they're so weak as is, made sergeants/health+damage upgrades/boosts tier 2 (and made sergeants actually important that would be capable of doing some damage)?

BTW, HWTs really have a problem with suppression right now (ie, it doesn't suppress units fast enough and has targeting bugs, imo), but considering that they're a defensive or lock down unit, shouldn't they be cheaper and maybe have a 'less-damaging-but-capable-of-tying-up-a-lot-of-units' job?

Also, since the DoW goal was to not really have to worry about the HQ, why don't they fix having the HQ being bogged down by the tier upgrades (but make them longer so that tier 1/2 gets extended).