Anyone else hate Marines?

[Governor]

Just a general question... I love 40k, and think it's a wonderfully fleshed out universe. I realize that the Space Marines are a part of that, and actually really enjoy a lot of their fluff... but having never owned a space marine army of any type, I have a love/hate thing going for them.

They're like walking tanks. Their armour is thick. Their guns are like portable cannons. When properly equiped they move like the wind and stomp skulls in close combat. The number of times I've had whole squads fall to a single marine are too numerous to count. Their vehicles have unpierceable hides and rain unceasing amounts of firepower on your positions until they're close enough to unlease hoardes of unstoppable soldiers conceiled in their bellies. In most games you don't even outnumber them. On a 4x4 table you can't fall back. You can't flank them. You can't retreat.

And worst of all, Almost EVERYONE plays them. I've always refused to touch them just to be different. However, I've come to despise my friends armies. I hate Marines with a passion. I play them just for the pleasure of knocking a few down. I rejoice at every wound I make, or each punctured tank...

Anyone else? comments and crits... but please, these are my honest feelings on the subject... I'm not trying to start a flame war with all you Marine players... God knows each and every one of you could kick my ass in a game...

[Crackweasel]

Erm, what army are you playing and what do you use? Roughly half of the people I know use either marines or chaos marines (or Necrons which are even harder to kill) so you might want to refine your tactics. Maybe you need to take more power weapons and guns with at least ap 3.

[LordInquisitor]

I agree that in the game they're overused, but I don't hate them. Fluff-wise, they're a very fitting part of the universe - Humanity's elite, supermen appearing only in the horridest of wars and a legend both to friend and foe. However, being so unique, they've attained so much focus that the real armies of Humanity - the Guard - pale in comparison.

[Darkness]

i hate the marines for almost the same reasons Gov, but im a tyranid player, and we rarely ahve problems overwhelming them ^^ useing 3 squads of spinegaunts totaling on 42 models just them, what army do you play? i cant see why you should have sooo much trouble with them

[No Surrender]

Maries don't stand a chance against my battle cannons and missile launchers.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally posted by Governor
Just a general question... I love 40k, and think it's a wonderfully fleshed out universe. I realize that the Space Marines are a part of that, and actually really enjoy a lot of their fluff... but having never owned a space marine army of any type, I have a love/hate thing going for them.

They're like walking tanks. Their armour is thick. Their guns are like portable cannons. When properly equiped they move like the wind and stomp skulls in close combat. The number of times I've had whole squads fall to a single marine are too numerous to count. Their vehicles have unpierceable hides and rain unceasing amounts of firepower on your positions until they're close enough to unlease hoardes of unstoppable soldiers conceiled in their bellies. In most games you don't even outnumber them. On a 4x4 table you can't fall back. You can't flank them. You can't retreat.

And worst of all, Almost EVERYONE plays them. I've always refused to touch them just to be different. However, I've come to despise my friends armies. I hate Marines with a passion. I play them just for the pleasure of knocking a few down. I rejoice at every wound I make, or each punctured tank...

Anyone else? comments and crits... but please, these are my honest feelings on the subject... I'm not trying to start a flame war with all you Marine players... God knows each and every one of you could kick my ass in a game...
Just play necrons that will reallly piss them off:salute:

[Deetwo]

" On a 4x4 table you can't fall back. You can't flank them. You can't retreat."

Um, why don't you play on a real sized table then? :) a 4' square is too small :/ The bare minimum is 6x4.. and bigger is better.

Gotta hate those 'nids on a 6x4 table, whole army in CC on turn two.

Um, and on topic then... No, I don't hate marines.. I play marines, although I'm going to go towards Tau, Witchhunters when they release, IIG daemonhunters force and etc.. I admit that marines are too powerfull, take for example the Iron Warriors.. sheesh. Four of the most efficient masskilling machines available, two of which can shoot you from any place.. and lets not forget the unbeliavable CC power they can muster, ccmonster princes and so forth :) 14 front plate rhino sized bs4 battlecannon fielding tanks that shrug off half of the hits *shiver*

AND they don't have demons.. what a shame :)

[DarthFelth]

Actualy i have a khorne marine army, not berzerkers, a space wolves and flesh tearers army so i'll let you figure it out :p

[HeritorAsphodel]

I dunno, Tau seem to do well against them in my experiance, but maybe my opponents were just stupid. Rail guns and those other heavy weapons that you can mount on battlesuits work just fine.

[DarthFelth]

hmm i have never played against tau so i cant say, but id love to, but then again i ant played in like 8 months

[Governor]

Just to answer a few of you who asked... I play Tau... Used to play Eldar... so I have little problem mustering AP3 weapons and laying down vast amounts of fire... It's just that against a Marine army (especially those put together by my friend Marco) you still only get about 2 turns of firing before they're upon you... and if even 1 marine gets in CC, your whole army is done. And yes, I mean that literally. I've had games where a single Marine model destroyed each and every one of my firewarrior squads... I fail to wound, he wins combat and over runs me... moves into the next squad and so on and so forth...
I've actually found that my most efficient Marine killers are Drones... they're expendable, cause pinning and can tie up an army giving me an extra turn to fire with my main lines...

[Maximus Decimus]

gotta love marines, yes what is stated above is true. I have had one of my grey hunter squads(Space Wolves) survive 3 turns of shooting from firewarriors with 3 guys left before the charge, i get shot at one last time by 24 shots, 2 marines die.. one is left and in the end he charges the firewarrior squad infont kills them all in a turn cause they fall back and i over run them, then he charges straight into a pathfinder squad holding a objective, from that and i finish them and have him claim that objective(4 objective in total, once u have 2 captured then u can call strikes upon enemy forces from orbit at half effiecency). this game had me and 2 other friends team play against 3 guys(all of them being tau with some kroot in their armies). my team was me(space Wolves), dark angels, and imps.

:sniper:

[Dabomb]

I myself play with a Space wolves army and I can tell you why most people pick them... because you can field the most points with the least amount of money 1 model can count for a whole squad of a differnet army like gaurdsmen or orks. Thats why I first started playing with them, and after you build up a solid force and learn some good tactics the space marines can rip in to any opposing army (especially my wolves once they get to h-to-h hehe) as long as you use them right

[IWAssassin]

I for one dont like marines for a variety of reasons, the least of which is that under 3rd and soon to be 4th Edition rules, their 3+ armor save simply means TOO much and can be seen as one of the fundamental problems with the game. Yes people take too much Plasma, but why? No people never take shuriken cannons. Again I ask why? Same goes with why 99% of the time someone will take a Basilisk over a Griffon, despite distinct advantages of the latter, leading to the discontinuation of the Griffon entirely. It all comes down to Marines.

However that can be fixed, in 5th Edition, maybe 6th, but Im optimistic so vote for 5th [its already set in stone it wont change for 4th].

My problem with Marines lies with the inconsistancy of the fluff, and at times complete failure of logic, and in turn with rules. I stand firm by the statement that gives the ONLY number for a value of Marine, which generally states that in a situation which you would use a Marine [which isnt represented by 40k anyway, but by something like Space Hulk] the marines are worth 10:1 compared to a NORMAL Guardsman. And yet the fluff repeatedly gives examples of 10 Marines taking out 10,000 Orks or holding off an entire Planet in open rebellion. Even the recent Eye of Terror fluff was littered with instances of "ha we stand a chance now, 1 Company of Marines from the Stupid Pansies Chapter showed up" with no mention of the OVER 1 billion Guardsmen who arrived in the region that very same day, and would have mathematically speaking a MILLION times the impact on the war. You believe that kind of fluff and you must more accurately believe that a Single Marine could take on a Squadron of Imperator class Titans. Because thats what a million Guardsmen could do.

Theres one quote in the BBB "There is less than one Marine for every world in the Imperium, yet it is enough" - Obviously meant to imply one thing. I always got from it "yet it is enough, because in the grand scheme of things, all the marines in the galaxy put together could NOT capture a single world in the Emperors name [mathematically speaking 1,000,000 marines is worth 10,000,000 guardsmen in optimal circumstances. Assuming they only fight in optimal circumstances, which is reasonable as they will outthink most IG Commanders, they are still outVALUED 5:1 on your average Gamma Class world with 1% military recruitment], less than one for every world is enough because its the Guardsmen who do all the work for none of the glory"

Then there are other tidbits that just make no logical sense. Iron Warriors are my favorite example of this. Siege Specialists. Okay in theory, but lets think about this. What are the advantages of a marine.

+Able to go without resupply because they can practically eat sand.
-Unfortunately Siege warfare needs to be in constant resupply or you run out of war materials
+Superior Armor protecting against all but heavy weapons
-Unfortunately at the ranges which siege warfare is fought, those are the ONLY weapons which will be brought to bear
+Advanced training and built in targetting skills to improve accuracy with weapons
-With siege mortars of course, it makes no difference if you're dead on or a foot off, even if you CAN use superior targetting skills
+Advanced martial arts training allowing the Marine to take a club and beat most enemies armed with advanced CC weaponry in close combat
-Of course in siege warfare if the enemy gets that close, you did something HORRIBLY wrong and all is lost anyway
+Marines are worth 10 guardsmen in individual combat
-Unfortunately it still takes 4 people to crew that Basilisk, no matter what
+Marines have advanced training in hostile insertion, able to deploy from space literally feet from their intended target
-In siege warfare expect a war of attrition where such strikes dont matter much

Beginning to see a pattern? The advantage of Iron Warriors over Guardsmen in a REAL Siege Warfare environment should be approximately zero. Certainly nowhere near the amount that would be necessary to justify sending Marines in over sending in, say simply double the number of Guardsmen. Make no mistake, Marines will be slightly more effective, but its so slightly that its irrelevant, and even if it wasnt, you'd still want to use them in a BETTER fasion, one that actually takes advantage of that downright EXPENSIVE training and equipment. Then of course theres the point that they get the IG Basilisk. Which really isnt a siege weapon, when compared to the Griffon Siege Mortar, the Medusa Siege Cannon, the Thunderer Siege Tank, or even the Demolisher Siege Tank. Just because the Basilisk is an Artillery platform does not mean its the best thing for Siege warfare. Its purpose is to scare the enemy more than actually do damage, as its really supposed to be 15 miles away where it couldnt hit a specific target if it tried.

Did I mention I hate the shoulderpads? (:

[Maximus Decimus]

wow u sure have a hateful passion there BUT u r wrong in some areas. The term used to describe a marine being equal to 10 guard is very generic becuase this depends on how long he has been in service, his experience etc. Note that marines do not invade planets by relying on wieght of numbers, they use theyr battle barges to destroy everything but the enemy's last strong hold then they go in and take care of that. NOTICE in alot of the fluff where marines are the invaders it always describes them storming ONE location not taking this city then moving from there to take this city, in total purging 8 cities until they arrive at the enemy's last defence. Im srry but u have to understand that if the USA says that one of theyr soldiers can kill ten iraqy soldiers that this statement is just a theoretical statistic because there may be a novice soldier who ends up getting shot in the head after taking 2 enemies down or there can be a soldier who knows what he is doing and takes down 15 soldiers(this number can vary depending on turrain). Such things may be possible in the 40k universe cause u have to understand that the 1:10 ratio is extremely general and purely theoretical meaning not usually true because depending on which marine from which chapter(training methods etc.) will decide how many enemies go down. U think a Grey Knight space marine cannot handle 10 guard?? i think so and HE IS A SPACE MARINE so there is no exception, or try a Space wolf/death company marine they can take down a hell of alot of guys before going down. The iron warrior example is bad as all some of those characteristics described and stated being useless in siege warfare are inherit with every space marine, others like the heavy weapons it is meaning something different u just twist it to suit ur rantings, heavy weapons weakness offset the siege machinery advantage u say? well this is meant by closer range heavy weapons so makes perfect sense cause u think if something is under siege that the enemy will park their nice artillery pieces right in range of ur own defences?? i think not. I also need to mention that a space marine bolter is a mini rocket launcher therefore if they r defending a location they can having the ammunition mow down ranks upon ranks of guard. fluff and rules do clash sometimes as bolters r stronger then what the rules say and that is needed for balance. u complain about power armor? well guy thats why space marines cost 15 or 18 or more pts per model(varying on chapter) WITH bikers costing a whole 30 pts for what? not much. u will see that the power armor is good fluffwise and is balanced as when someone fields 40-50 marines and SOME support, u can field 130 orks or imperial guard and then add heavy support etc. even fire warriors can outnumber marines by alot as in 2000pt games my friend has about 6 squads of firewarriors while i have 4 of marines, he has 3 crises, hammerhead, broadsides, and some other crap while i have 8 bikes, 4 devastators(long fang) and a dreadnought. now that shows he has more support and more infantry then i by nearly 2-1 and that number varies on which army u use. In bonus he has rlly long range on everything. Now stop ur foolish ranting and crying of how marines are this and that and too unbalanced, something tougher then marines r necrons so go complain about them or even eldar... 3 wraithlords! what!.

[Maximus Decimus]

BASALISKS ARE NOT THE ONLY SIEGE WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO CHAOS, go read some books and go check out TROLL MAGAZINE.

[ATag]

the marines are not so unbalanced... just watch the C'etans
and then the wraitlords and all necrons. and the strongest soliders existing the commissars one singel commissar can tacke out 10 gray knigths so the marines are not so unbalanced.. they just have bettre armor but are not specialised in any equipment
(ultra marines) they dont have any CC specialists not so good hevy weapons and their commanders can hardley take out a chaos lord with the same points cost... they dosent have any real psykic powers like the eldar, Chaos , even imperial guards have some better... but they have some good things.. like chaplains with dual ligthning claws and terminator honors.. liberians with dual force weapons and terminator honor ( the moast expenccive charakter i ever used he got killed by a chaos lord at the same points cost) the necrons are the real unbalansed army they have specialists att everything and they can get back after they have been shoot down by a plasma cannon or their destroyer did get back abaut 5 times when it was blown to pieces by my d-cannon(eldar) they are so annoying meeting and there is no honor winning with them...

[Peregrinus]

Well, first of all, you can't take dual force weapons. And now I'll move on to some generic game-related rebuttals...

Remember that your typical 40K game represents a small chucnk of one localised skirmish line. Optimally, in war, you want to keep direct close-range combat with the enemy to a minimum, except where necessary. Infantry are used to take and hold objectives long enough to allow the artillery to move up and continue laying waste to the enemy. Historically, that's what Marines have been used for -- taking beachheads and storming enemy strongholds. They charge in and then it's up to the army to hold onto what they take. It's the army that has to worry about supply lines and rearguard and building battlefield structures and so on. So in a 40K game, you're looking at either a strategic objective being fought over or a place where two armies have accidentally met and are now trying to deny each other the same piece of real estate. Also, a typical 40K game represents at most about a minute or so of "real time". There's a lot that led up to the tabletop situation you have in a game, and a lot more yet that happens after you pack up.

Another thing that's usually forgotten is, casualties aren't usually straight out dead (not counting insta-kills). The number of wounds a model has only represents the amount of pain they can stand before they're no longer capable of fighting. A Marine with one wound gets shot in the leg and spends the next few seconds not shooting and looking down at where he just got shot to see if it's anything serious or some such. Heroes with three wounds know what it feels like to get shot or hacked a bit and keep going despite injury until it piles up enough that they have to stop and call for an Apothecary, since they can't raise their right arm any more. Actually, that reminds me... One of the things I liked about 1st Edition was the wound chart for Imperial medics. You rolled d100 on it for each of your casualties to determine the location, severity, and consequences of the damage once the medics got to them (if possible). F'r instance, 36-40 indicates a severe wound to the left arm. Down time is 2/4 turns the model must remain stationary while being treated -- but they can still fire weapons. The first number indicates the down time of Marines, the second that of other Imperial troops. Game penalty (for the remainder of the game) is -3 shooting to hit with weapons held in that or both hands and -2 WS. And wound effects were cumulative. Made things quite interesting.

Point is, the fluff tends to take a much broader view of things than what you see on the tabletop. Those of you familiar with Epic will know that a 40K game represents one turn of one three-inch by two-inch chunk of the battle line. That really limits the scope, but not necessarily the importance, of what you accomplish in a game.

--Jonah

[DarthFelth]

to be fair i never thouht the rules of 3rd edition worked that well, i liked the way ur armires were choosen, but i perfered the 2nd ed rules

[Maximus Decimus]

Nicely pointed out above, the reason they simplified the game ALOT is cause of younger ppl joining the hobby. Overall i believe SM suit theyr place in 40k and r a well balanced and rounded army. So for anyone out their stop ur ranting! and start complaining about some other armies that are a bit over the top AND if u dont like it join em or dont play them. I think this thread should get locked cause it has a big potential for a flame war about the Space Marines and all those childish ranters who dont like a army cause they dont know how to develop tactics and their stand and shoot or charge everything tactics fail.

good day

:flamer:

[DarthFelth]

my close combat tactis dont fail :p i just gotta change them i think, if the dismountin rules changed :p man i wish i still a white dwarf subscribtion

[Maximus Decimus]

those were the trail rules, they r not official. Yeah white dwarf is good to have and probebly later on closer to release they will feature a article about dawn of war just like they did with firewarrior.

:joy:

[DarthFelth]

ahh cos they sounded dodgy, i mean from what i heard they didnt really effect orcs

[SoheilsX]

you think MARINES are tuff? Christ, have you even SEEN the Daemonhunters, their greyknights could take on ANYTHING, ive had a single squad of greyknights take down a great daemon of Khorne no problem. They are buffed heavily and are unmatched in power strength and speed. The only set back is their limited number, but when each of your terminators is the equal of a chaos champ or when the leader of your termies is the equiv of a prince in combat, and you have 4 squads, then you really got some power behind you. I play both, the armies are mixed, using the daemon hunters as assistance to my Dark Angels. Not to mention the daemon hunters themselves are so ubelieveable powerful that i have taken 2 squads of khorne berzerkers in just with him and his retinue. I especially feel bad for the eldar, they are nothing compared to the armies of man.

[Shadione]

Originally posted by IWAssassin
My problem with Marines lies with the inconsistancy of the fluff, and at times complete failure of logic, and in turn with rules. I stand firm by the statement that gives the ONLY number for a value of Marine, which generally states that in a situation which you would use a Marine [which isnt represented by 40k anyway, but by something like Space Hulk] the marines are worth 10:1 compared to a NORMAL Guardsman. And yet the fluff repeatedly gives examples of 10 Marines taking out 10,000 Orks or holding off an entire Planet in open rebellion.

This debate comes up constantly, already on this board several times. The 10 to 1 statement you mention is from a quote made by a fictional character in the universe. IMO, he was making a point, not a factual statement. In a 'fair fight' his statement is probably fairly accurate, but lets face it, marines don't fight fair, and that statement should not be taken as absolute mathematical fact.

In the Iron Warrior example you give you list a lot of pros and cons for marines versus guard that revolve around direct combat performance comparisons while overlooking the most important advantage a Marine has over most opponents: experience and knowledge of tactics. Marine commanders fight wars for decades, if not centuries, whereas the average Imperial commander has probably seen only a few years of combat even in optimum situations, and certainly doesn't receive the quality of training a marine does.

I'm not arguing that marines are best, I like my Orks far more than any tin-can humies, I'm just trying to look at the fluff with an objective view. There is more to war than stat lines. History has dozens of examples of commanders defeating a superior force through experience, tactics, and psychology. Imagine a foe who is not affected by psychology, and knows every trick in the book to crush your men's morale. This is the true strength of marines.

On the other side of the coin, there are all kinds of fights marines could never even take part in. That's the strength of the Guard. Their greater fire power and numbers make them much more versatile. Sometimes out-smarting your enemy isn't enough, and you need the strong hammer of an endless number of artillery pieces and men.

However, most people don't want to play as the endless masses, they like super-heroes, and armies that have few models in them so they don't have to paint too many guys before they can play. :)

The scariest forces in Warhammer 40,000 fluff are when you combine marines and Guard, or Chaos marines and cult forces. Check out Storm of Iron, great book for driving this point home, and a great book in general IMO.

[Shadione]

And getting back on topic,

I don't find Marines to be too tough, and don't dislike them. But then, I've developed tactics to fight them well with my army of choice.

With Tau I can see why you'd have trouble. Tau armies seem to have problems with marines. The players I've seen overcome this usually use masses of Fire Warriors, and take full advantage of the mobility of the Tau.

[ShineDog]

marine tanks unstoppable?
what?

marine tanks go down EASY, and if youre using the trial assault rules, then its even worse.

hint, an all infantry imperial guard army will beat an all marine army most of the time in melee, especially since most marine armies lack flamers, since they expect to be facing other marines.

an all infantry IG army in a cityfight is sickening against marines, since all troops within 6" (i think) fight normally in a cityfight. its sickening :)

[ShineDog]

trial vehicle rules i mean

[DarthFelth]

my khorne army lacks flammers, i dont usualy have a problem kill guard, cos well, guard do make a really bloody mess if u charge quick enough ;) the only problem is of u kill erm all in a turn :p

[Maximus Decimus]

well i have something good for u guard! every one of my space wolf squads have flamers and the blood claws, gotta love them 4 attacks each on the charge will pretty much obliterate any unit it comes by especially with the tons of power weapons included. I think ill start a guard army sometime but down to it a ultra army isnt meant for fighting guard head on. for the record i never use tanks cause u know what they suck except the leman russ exterminator that wolves can use, otherwis i never use tanks cause they die to easy.

:screwy:

[deggy]

While we're picking on the Guard, I love being a plague marine! Toughness 5 means those pathetic weaklings need a 6 to wound me! That can take the steam out of just about any counter charge... except for rending claws and that darn divine guidance! One of the guys I played against would always divine guidance his sisters attacks, figuring since they needed sixes to wound anyway, might as well deny me any saves at all.

Marines, especially chaos cult marines, are a truly powerful bunch of individuals. Grey Knights even more so. But with each increase in power, you can see the number you can field dwindles. That IS the ultimate marine weakness, their small number. They are so elite compared to your other average warrior that I am usually outnumbered 3 to 1 on the battlefield. You've got no room for error as even a single casualty can be disastrous. And you have to rely on solid tactics! You can't rely on sheer number to do the trick like some armies can.

As for tanks'a'popping, keep those vehicles hull down or in cover! Glancing only against shooting attacks - even ordinance - is a really good thing! Especially for my defiler which ignores 1-3 on the glancing table anyway.

peace out!
-chris "mr. pajamas" designer

[ShineDog]

an army built to beat a heavy infantry guard army is always gonna make a real mess, but most tounry or open night style armies arent, since IG armies are still rare.

if youve seen the trial VEHICLE rules from the aus GW site, then youll hopefully appreciate tanks a lot more, if this is any indicator of 4th

move and fire ordinance. MmmmMmmm

[thePreacher]

mehp

[DarthFelth]

hmm, now i think that is silly, i onlu use Vehicles for transports, i mean i put my termies in my land raiders, my berzerkers in my rhino, i think thats all tanks are really good for :D i have only ever thought 1 imperial guard army, and he lacked troops, and well i dont wanna go into the story, im sure he had more marines than guard in his army (dont ask)

[IWAssassin]

TVR... depends on the army.

Wow, I didnt expect my post to start a flame war (:

Some points Id like to address. First there was the one saying 1:10 is not a solid number. Thats true, its an average number taken when you have a large number of troops. Remember theres always that marine who kills nobody to make up for the marines who kill 11. The exact ratio given was 100:1000 which seems like an accurate representation of a number large enough to get that as a true average. When you go to 1000:10,000 its probably even moreso. Certainly the numbers wont deviate so drastically that it becomes 1:50 as it would need to be for all marines in the galaxy to be able to take a world.

Next was the issue of marines fighting fair. This one I have to take as an assumption, but that fictional character would likely be burned as a heretic if he decided to use Marines in a situation where they wouldnt be ideal. In a situation where they could fight unfair. Simply put Marines are too valuable a resource to NOT use them in the situation where they are ideal. If its a situation where they're not ideal, you can always send in 20x as many Guardsmen as you would need Marines, as it will be dealt with. Marines are just better at it for less overall loss of life [though as stated losing 1 Marine is in a way as bad as losing 50 million Guardsmen cause thats the ratio]. I find it unlikely he would ask for marines in a situation where they couldnt fight fair.

Finally the IW thing. Yes they also have superior battlefield experience, but again. What are 10,000 Marines driving tanks going to do that 20,000 Guardsmen driving tanks couldnt? Siege Warfare is the PERFECT example of a fight you would never take marines to. At most you would have a Marine Scout in orbit on a Destroyer giving orders to the ground units because his COMMAND ability can help them, not his actual combat training or equipment. From a logical standpoint Iron Warriors should be represented as a LATD Army. You get one Aspiring Champion Iron Warrior to guide the army, if you're really lucky you might get some Obliterators, but by and large its the Traitor Guardsmen doing the siege part of the work [besides back before the Heresy there were still 50,000,000 Guardsmen for every Marine, and back then the Legions COMMANDED the Guard]

[DarthFelth]

experiemce counts for a hell of alot, i mean the marine who has been trained to drive this tank, and perhaps been doind it for like a 100 years ant gona be making mistakes, i mean he could do it with his eyes closed :p but i think you missed the point about commanders on that bit, i mean, how many more tactics could you learn in 100 years of service unlike say 20years or service.

On the note of Seige, hmm i think you should of told Horus that ;)

[IWAssassin]

Most regular soldiers who've been driving that tank for 2 years arent going to make mistakes either. The marines will be slightly more accurate, which as said doesnt matter a whole heck of a lot in siege warfare where "close" counts when it comes to the weaponry.

There is a difference but the difference is so minimal its pointless. Its certainly nowhere NEAR the 10x effectiveness that marines would get when used properly, so why use them in this manner?

Its not that Marines are BAD in that circumstance, its just that its a complete waste. Your effectiveness goes up maybe 5-10% at INCREDIBLE expense, not to mention losing a Basilisk with Guardsmen is FAR better than losing a Basilisk with Marines inside, the latter is an atrocity.

As for telling Horus, he had billions of Guardsmen with him. As said the Legions were the military as a whole. With the Thousand Sons Legion came billions of Guardsmen under their command. That only changed after the Heresy because it gave individual people too much power.

[Shadione]

Originally posted by IWAssassin
From a logical standpoint Iron Warriors should be represented as a LATD Army. You get one Aspiring Champion Iron Warrior to guide the army, if you're really lucky you might get some Obliterators, but by and large its the Traitor Guardsmen doing the siege part of the work

I agree with this. I'm mutating my Iron Warrior army into a LATD one as we speak. I'll field them as an Iron Warrior army with traitors and mutant supplements, using the LATD list. I won't be able to field more than 3 Obliterators with that list, but I don't think fielding lots of high point models is a good idea in the first place. :)

[Maximus Decimus]

well i have to disagree on some pts. The whole thing about marines and ideal situations thats not what he meant. he meant that a marine fighting a guard in a combat would know every trick in the book - knowing fast and effiecent ways of getting rid of him and/or using his surroundings to his advantage. now about the whole thing about marines and gaurd relating to exp now that is different as if uv fought for 100 yrs i believe u would know the entire psychological point of battle and even be able to enticipate enemy movements, reactions, etc. A space marine having fought so long would be able to see the best course of action in whatever given situation AND the enemies reactions to ur movements and courses of action, anyway thats what i think. I believe u r wrong on the part of commanders As a 100 yr old commander having fought 1000s of battles and 1000s of senarios would again know how to better second guess his opponent and be able to use his resources more effiecently, think of it this way a 40-50 yr old commander to a space marine commander(having to be more then 150) would be like a child commanding a army and a grown adult mastered in strategies and tactics commanding a army. history in 40k has proven my pt time and time again.

:notadd:

[Shadione]

Originally posted by deggy
Marines, especially chaos cult marines, are a truly powerful bunch of individuals. Grey Knights even more so. But with each increase in power, you can see the number you can field dwindles. That IS the ultimate marine weakness, their small number. They are so elite compared to your other average warrior that I am usually outnumbered 3 to 1 on the battlefield. You've got no room for error as even a single casualty can be disastrous. And you have to rely on solid tactics! You can't rely on sheer number to do the trick like some armies can.

Why rely on tactics when you can rely on 120 screaming Orks at 1500 points? More axes are more reliable than me having to be smart on a regular basis. ;)

[DarthFelth]

i say rely on 40 Khorne Berzkers smashing axes into skulls screamin "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!""

[IWAssassin]

Well I always did have a controversial oppinion. For the knowing the best way to engage a Guardsmen, Im sure that goes into the being 10x as good. And I really wont debate for a second that a Marine SCOUT has more knowledge of Tactics than most IG military commanders, hence the difference in strategy Ratings. However there are types of warfare where that matters, and types where it doesnt. Siege warfare is a kind of war of attrition, its what Guard Excel at. Tactics are pretty standard [shoot till they surrender], accuracy doesnt matter much. Not much at all you'd need a 40k Marine for, with one exception. Occasionally you might have a position overrun, and then its good to call in a Marine Drop Pod Assault, or if one isnt availiable, a Stormtrooper Valkyrie/Vulture assault to retake the position.

Anyway Im rambling, though I have to say 180 Mutants are even more fun than 120 Orks Shadione (:

[DarthFelth]

erm i think u find that marines are even better at seiges, because, of their enhanced bodies, and at the end of the day, marines can take out defended postions with ease, its called, not drop pods, thunder hawks and jump packs, cos if i remeber, thunder hawks ahve battle cannons on 2 and im sure company of assaulr marines, could take out a fort once in the walls, or if its a blood angle chaptor, you have the Veterans assault squads as well :D.

If u played Gothic u know Thunder Hawks ant that easy to take down, because of the way the are built. Anyways the marines can take a postion with blowin half of it up, unlike the guard, which also means they can actualy better defend it. and marines have plenty of heavy guns to take out guard tanks once in defence. takin a forti postion, erm how about teleporting the first company in hehe.

now as i said

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD"

thats so much more fun that WAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
;)

[IWAssassin]

Thats lightning strike Take and Hold however. Thats what Marines are good at. Its not Siege warfare which is distinctly different. Siege Warfare is when you start building a system of trenches for your infantry and setting up your tanks behind sand bag walls while you do as much damage to the enemy as possible regardless of your own casualties. Think WW1 primarially, though the Siege of Stalingrad is another good example of Siege Warfare [just no trenches].

Marines are more the style of the Normandy Invasion, put a lot there, take the place, then hand it over to the real army to capture the rest of France and Germany.

Just Imagine what Normandy Would have been like had we had Space Marines to do it... taking 1/10th as many casualties, probably capturing the beaches faster, resulting in german reinforcements mattering less had they came at all.

Thunderhawks are not siege weapons, they're rapid deployment systems. Get the marine there as fast as possible, use the battlecannon to create a not-too hostile LZ [create a crater where you want to land, or force the enemy to take cover, either way] to allow you to deploy.

[Dazz]

The advantage of the Tua is their long rage you need to keep this in your advantage. Also use powerful weapons on your crisis suites are your best bet as they can use the jump packs to get in close (plasma or fusion blasters). a couple of broadside suites not too many as they may lack tanks. Fighting against the Guard then you may find you need more.

I used to be a Dark Angles players then decided to move onto Tau & Tyrainds.

[DarthFelth]

yeah i do know what a seige is, however the objective is still the same as the marines would handle it, perhaps u missed the battle for terra display at gamesday, i really think u should look at that, just face it, guard are dirt :p

[The Collector]

I would see Space Marines as being excellent "assault" forces, but not as siegecrafters. Maybe that's just a weird quirk of personality. As stated before, a Space Marine sieger is not going to be ten times as good as a human sieger. In sieges it becomes a matter of equipment. In defensive fortification, it's how much supplies you have and how fast and effectively you can deploy your defenses. Being a Space Marine rather then human may not offer radical advantages, unless Space Marines got first dibs on supplies and powerful munitions.

[No Surrender]

unless Space Marines got first dibs on supplies and powerful munitions.
Which they do... Land Raiders, Terminator Armour, Anti-Grav Tech.

[DarthFelth]

lol, besides as i said, Viris bombs :p forget the seige. your saying they wouldnt have a advantage over a guard, lets see, hmm, bet u any money u could without food alot long than a guard ,now ant that a advantage, i mean, for the same amount of time i bet you the marine wouls still be able to fight, unlike guardsmen. But anyways i dont think marines would really bother with seiges, as i said assault squards in thunder hawks, terminators teleporting in land raiders and dreads stormin the entrance, come, you dont like marines, and thats all it is :p

also dude, why would they, battle barages hello, what do you think the forward guns would do to a fort :p

[Maximus Decimus]

good pt made, i also want to add that marines can go weeks on end with no sleep what so ever and without food for a longer time while guard need shelter, food, warmth, sleep, etc. marines do get first dibs on equipement over guard as they r a higher athourity in the imperium. it would take x times more guard to do what a space marines force can do therefore saving resources and expenses to the imperium.

[IWAssassin]

Taking less resources isnt something you really worry about in Siege Warfare again. Nor is ability to go without food or sleep. In that kind of warfare it just doesnt matter at all. In fact those generally only come to matter in recon missions, which isnt something full fledged Marines do [its the job of the scouts].

It seems to me that you're avoiding the point. Yes it takes less resources for marines to raid a bunker. Likewise it takes less resources for marines to capture a spaceport. Siege Warfare marines actually need MORE resources as they like to carry around useless things [in terms of Siege Warfare] like Power Armor and Bolters. A Marine might know better tactics, but thats when you send *A* marine, not a company or Legion of Marines in the case of Iron Warriors. Even so, there is a counter arguement there, as theres a book, I believe its called the Tactica Imperialis, which describes pretty much every possible combat situation and the best way to deal with it. Your average IG Captain would have access to this book, so while the Marine has Practical experience, the IG Captain has Theoretical experience both of which say the exact same thing.

You're looking at the advantages marines have. I'll grant you each and every one of them. You're missing the point however. In Siege warfare NONE of those advantages matter. And one disadvantage DOES matter. While you cant get 10 Guardsmen through a doorway at the same time to make them worth the marine in Room to Room fighting, you CAN get 10x the number of Guardsmen in a Siege. So your Legion has 10,000 men. Well its not really THAT hard to get 20,000 Guardsmen to line up outside a city with Basilisks or Medusas, and 10,000 Marines can NOT compete with 20,000 Guardsmen in that situation.

[Shim]

Tactica Imperialis? Pfft, every marine has memorized the Codex Astartes

[Shim]

You are right though, Marines' wouldn't be the most effective siege force. I doubt Marines would ever have to siege though, they have other ways of taking strongholds.

The Iron Warrior case is kinda strange...Perhaps in their glory days when they were still loyal they had the numbers and resources to make them the expert siegers they're supposed to be

[Maximus Decimus]

Tactica Imperialis? Pfft, every marine has memorized the Codex Astartes

or theyr own doctrine like the space wolves, blood angels, etc. i believe u r wrong in some of ur pts. u ppl keep believing that the imperium has a reserve army of +1000 regiments but they simply do not, they r stretched thin and thats why they cannot fully fledge a big enough crusade to crush the tau without having to weaken another location. say a problem arises like some rebelion and then they have fortified themselves in theyr fortress, now are u gonna send 100s of thousands of gaurd and weaken another locations defences or will u order a battle barge to come in, bombard the location and then storm the fortress with a rapid strike force of marines? i think ull send those marines. What resources does power armor spend? nothing rlly but power that can be charged by machines on the battle barge which the chapter takes care of themselves(includes all other equipement) and this doesnt weigh on the whole of imperial supplies. U are also wrong to think that SM use more resources then guard cause u need a million guard or so to take a planet which requires to arrange transportation of the regiments and ammunitions, provide and protect supply lines, etc etc etc while all u need to do is order a chapter to deal with the problem and they will send the forces they see fit. SM forces are all supplied by the battle barge(note the battle barge also has forges to build more things, its a HQ/base away from their home HQ/base) therefore SM do not need supply lines, everything they do is taken care of by the chapter.

Planning a invasion with guard takes in regiments, cargo ships, escorts, Imperial navy, etc etc etc while sending SM means a battle barge and a couple of ships will be sent to deal with the planet more effiecently. U also think reading a book is the same as experiencing battle and developing strategies by urself? no its like saying i can read a book about a soldier and his days and then put what i learned in practice and boom im a soldier now. Note the book has been written from ones point of view and judgement never mind that, by a human too probebly. Experiencing 1000 battles and developing ur own strategies is not the same as reading a book and then saying according to the book u guys do this this and this, it is common sense to know that theoretical books can never beat home grown battle tactics.

A veteran commander can easily beat a novice "according to the book..." commander.

:gnight:

[DarthFelth]

lol, well you wrong on thing, they would most likly send in a strike crusier :p ands siege warfare isnt about food, ahh right, so if you cant get fresh supplies, and you all die from hunger, that isnt a win, also, being a smaller army than a guard army, they would require less food, so if they had the same amount of food as a guard army doing the same job, and for months long, and could more than likly go and catch their own, if guard trying doing this, they would probly loss a squad or 2 :p

Im not being funny, but if say we have a rebellion, we take the capital lock it up tight and a few 1000 guard come along, well, we ant gona be scared, which would more than likely draw the seighe out long, now if a marine company or 2 turn, i mean 200 odd 8 feet tall monsters, who in fairness size wish are bigger than ape, i mean who spits acid, these guys are waitin at the front door, i think most would give up and beg for their lives ;)

[IWAssassin]

Actually a Siege ISNT about food. Because if you cant so much as get food to your troops then you CERTAINLY cant get something like ammunition to them either. Without ammunition the siege stops REAL quick. In the end its FAR more difficult to supply the ammo than it is the food [a trooper will eat 3-4 pounds of food a day, a Leman Russ eats 20-30 pounds every shot].

Now believing the Imperial Army has a reserve of 1000 Regiments? Not at all. The Imperial Guard is 100% reserve. Every planet has its own sizeable military. The Imperial Guard can call upon 10% of that at any given time. That means that SHOULD the need arise, the Imperium could call upon 5 TRILLION Guardsmen, and have them anywhere in the galaxy within 4-5 months. Thats the way the Imperial Guard Works. In the meantime, yes the rest of the Imperium isnt as well protected. But the reality is taking 1 man out of every squad isnt going to make that much of a difference.

No, the only reason the Imperium cant send a force to wipe out the Tau is because GW doesnt want the Tau to die, otherwise they could without thinking much about it. 1000 Worlds contributing to the effort is never going to be noticed on an imperial-wide scale, but that is all it would take. And thats CONTRIBUTING, not sending their entire PDF, just the standard 10%

Then theres the so-called planetary invasion. Sorry all Marines in the GALAXY couldnt take down a planet, you're going to need to send in the Guard anyway to assist. And it doesnt take much effort at all. Across the Imperium everyone is trained to get 10% of the army of EVERY planet within 10,000 lightyears to any given target within 100 days. On average thats over a billion guardsmen you could get to a world EVERY day. Compared to the 50 million that would by default be on a world.

Thats another point. At any GIVEN point the Imperium is stretched thin. But only because of the fact that if you're going to invade a world you're going to bring at least a billion troops with you, and a given world will only have a PDF of 50,000,000 men. The Imperial Army is BASED around the idea of sending a SMALL number of Reinforcements from a LARGE number of worlds. What you wind up with is the fact that within 100 days the Imperium can get 100 BILLION men to any target in the galaxy, or your money back.

[DarthFelth]

ahh that explains the crusades then, cos the marines didnt take any planets then, and if you read the history, they take some by force, yeah a siege is also about food, great if you ahve tons of ammo, what if you have no food, you still gona shot your guns while struggling to stand up cos your so weak with lack of food, erm, i dont think so. You really should give the marines a hell of alot more credit than you have, you know what i have no idea how many chaptors are actualy about now, nor do i care, nor do i care how many guard are about, at the end of the day, fact is fact, Marines are designed for one thing, thats war, Guard are not, this is the simple fact, marines have taken part in many seiges, like the siege of terra in the horus heresy, Iron warriors are expects in seiges, dosnt that tell you something, that perhaps marines know how to seige, i mean do you think the iron warriors were the only chaptor to know seige tactic, no, they are just better, and on your numbers their, i really doubt the imperium coul afford to lose 100 billion men to attack like that, 100 billion is still 100 billion men, what if they are all died before they even reached the surface, Christ marines vessels are even designed to take down planetry defences, it says that about the Bombardcannon, thats its job, Nova cannons and the like are not designed for that, they are for ship to ship combat, look at the marines rules in gothic they are designed to take stuff, and yes they can take it siege, or in a lightning strike, Guard cant take it in a lightning strike, they are forced into a seige (well thats what i think anyways) marines dont waste the ammo that guard do, cos they can shoot straight for starts :p

[IWAssassin]

In a siege anything smaller than a Leman Russ and it doesnt matter. And when it comes to a Leman Russ, being an expert sniper means absolutely nothing, as close counts.

Crusades? You seem to be ignoring a huge part of the fluff if you think it was only marines. Like the part about how the Legions commanded the then Imperial Army, and thus would have brought them along. This is why Chaos Space Marines use normal Naval Vessels, not specialised craft like Battle Barges, because the Imperial Navy, Imperial Army, and Space Marines were one in the same at the time of the Crusades and the time of the Heresy. The Siege on Terra? Sure marines were a part of it, but by and large without question the real work was done by the accompanying traitor Army, not Marines themselves. Remember how even Horus stayed on his Flagship, never touching Terra itself?

Marines are a tool, they are not the all purpose tool. They have one specific job. Take a ship, or take a spaceport. Once the spaceport is taken, hand it over to the Guard for the real war. There are other things they CAN do, but by and large they're not that much better at it than Guardsmen are, and cant do ANYTHING large scale without the support of Guardsmen. Thats the simple fact thats even built into the fluff, and certainly into the logic.

The relative comparison would be saying you can send in nothing but Navy SEAL teams and expect China to fall. Thats far from the case. Because of their elite training, they become VERY specialised, to the point where you would almost NEVER see a SEAL driving a tank, or assaulting a beachhead. Its just not what they do, and there arent enough of them to do anything large scale.

Yes without question anything a Guardsman can do a Marine can do better. HOWEVER how much better varies a lot, and in any situation where attrition matters, the difference between a Marine and a Guardsman is so incredibly slim that it doesnt matter, because you could never field a comparable number of Marines. As I said, assuming a Marine is even worth 2 Guardsmen in a siege. Okay so you can bring 1000 marines. Any real siege you'd need at least 10 times that number to make an impact. If the entire planet is a siege... well expect needing to bring the equivilant of 500 million Guardsmen. With the 2:1 optimistic value of a Marine in siege [its the tank itself that matters most in a siege and the tank is the same damned tank] thats only 250 times the number of Marines that exist in the entire galaxy (:

I will not question for a second that a marine is by FAR the best choice in a Ship boarding operation, or taking a single building [spaceport, enemy HQ, whatever]. But any operation larger than that, especially any where the Marine might find himself more than 40 feet from the enemy at ANY time [eg 40k where the average distance is around 144ft] and Marines drop SIGNIFICANTLY in value. Case in point we'll just use 40k Rules. In a situation where guard could not bring weapons like Plasma Rifles or Heavy Weapons to bear, Marines are worth 8:1. VERY close to the 10:1 ratio given. Yet in 40k itself, the battlefield ratio will often be 2:1 - their effectiveness drops that much.

Put the Marines and Guardsmen in Leman Russes and that will drop to 1.1:1 give or take very little. Siege Warfare often involves a LOT of tanks at VERY extreme ranges, or alternately Enemy at the Gates style warfare, where Generally speaking a well armed Guardsman will be worth 1:1 against a marine, as I can take a Missile Launcher and sit in a ruined building and wait till I see you. Then both of us only need one shot, but I have the advantage of seeing you first. The same with the Marine. He can see me, and kill me, but then my buddies will be firing everything they have at your position. You wont survive.

Siege warfare is the most brutal of types of warfare, and one where attrition matters more than most other things. More than ANY of your special abilities. Yes you are SLIGHTLY better as a marine, but the point is moot because 10,000 marines wont get the job done anyway, so its not an issue that you'd have to replace them with 11,000 Guardsmen.

Marines are to be used when having 1,000 of them WILL make a difference and will complete an objective. Siege warfare is not that case. Capturing ONE objective, however, is.

[Maximus Decimus]

u r right in many of those pts but in what i have read what marines do to take care of a planet is virus bomb it etc from their damn battle barge(i believe i stated this above) and then once the enemy has fortified themselves in a fortress with heavy void shielding then the marines come down to do some work, have u read some other aspects of the fluff before the heresy when it states how in some battles i believe marines have taken worlds by themselves, say world eaters, imperial fists i know of, etc. they usually massacre the population by bombardment and kill off any major stronghold using marines to storm in(there is a specific story involving world eaters in one, space wolves and dark angels in another). i did not say space marines set camp outside the enemy and fire at will but u will know when it comes to defending space marines excel, read the siege of the fang or something along those lines... its in the SoB old codex i believe. A skeleton crew of Space wolves withstood siege and slaughtered any assault waves from the guard for a period of a yr or mybe 2 yrs im not sure.

[IWAssassin]

If you want to obliterate everything on the planet, yes marines can handle it fine. Again the fortress is the one building scenario, and it was already given they wiped out the rest of the population with orbital bombardment.

Of course with the exception of that last fortress, most Imperial vessels larger than Frigate class could exterminatus a world.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, thats what i was getting at the entire time lol. i never actually stated that space marines lay siege to a world, others said that.

good gaming

[DarthFelth]

lol i said they could :p

SEIGE OF EARTH :p HORUS HERESY :p

i have read alot of the fluff, not all, what others said was that marines could if need be and would be better at it than guard, everyone knows marines usual tactics, hell i use erm alot :D

[ThirdDanScoota]

you think MARINES are tuff? Christ, have you even SEEN the Daemonhunters, their greyknights could take on ANYTHING, ive had a single squad of greyknights take down a great daemon of Khorne no problem. They are buffed heavily and are unmatched in power strength and speed. The only set back is their limited number, but when each of your terminators is the equal of a chaos champ or when the leader of your termies is the equiv of a prince in combat, and you have 4 squads, then you really got some power behind you. I play both, the armies are mixed, using the daemon hunters as assistance to my Dark Angels. Not to mention the daemon hunters themselves are so ubelieveable powerful that i have taken 2 squads of khorne berzerkers in just with him and his retinue. I especially feel bad for the eldar, they are nothing compared to the armies of man.

NOTE: THESE REPLIES ARE GENERALISED AND IN REFERENCE TO THE MANY REPLIES, NOT JUST THE QUOTE. THE QUOTE IS JUST HIGHLIGHTING KEY POINTS (AS QUOTES DO).

MY GOD PEOPLE! ARE YOU ALL RANTING BAFOONS??!! It's time to set the record straight once and forall.
1. Those of you that say Eldar are crap, why dont u get the freaking Codex and look. I know, they arent as buff as Space Marines, BUT THE RELY ON THEIR SPECIALIST EQUIPMENT! For example, you charge a squad of Marines with 10 Howling Banshees, and theres no squad left. 3 attacks each on the charge, ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST on first turn (high INT anyway), high WS, and power weapons all round. Not to mention Dark Reapers! And as for Wraithlords, POWERFIST THEM, THEY DIE QUITE EASILY! Hell! even Tau can kill em with their pulse rifles! They are a diversion unit designed to soak up firepower, and if you take 3 of them, thats Heavy Support slots that could have been used on something like D-Cannons or the serious power-packing Warwalkers.

2. The Space Marine's points cost is about right, as they cost a heap more (nearly 3 times the amount) than Guardsman. Also, do you even KNOW how EASY it is to fail a Marine's armour save, if not several? Sure, they're buff, but they freakin NEED IT! Cause' they get outnumbered big time by nearly everyone else. Are you people out there also saying that giving my Eldar Guardians a 5+ re-rollable cover save (can be done easily using two spells) is also unfair? Because its almost, if not as effective as a 3+ save if you do the math!

3. One of the armies i collect are Daemonhunters. At 25pts for a standard Grey Knight, plus an extra 25pts for the Justicar (Vet. Serg), they are HORRENDOUSLY EXPENSIVE! Also, Grey Knights dont have the option for heavy weapons like Lascannons and Missile Launchers in the squads, ONLY Incinerators (Heavy Flamers that ignor Inv. Saves), and Psycannons (friggin' expensive versions of Assaultcannons that can be Heavy3 at 36", or Assault3 at 18" - also ignor Inv. Saves). Wow, what a tonn of options... And on top of that, almost the entire Daemonunter's Armoury is filled with anti-Daemon and anti-Chaos stuff, which is USELESS against anyone else! They seriously lack in the options of other Space Marine Armies to get to the point.
A reminder, "DAEMONHUNTERS". Trigger anything? Like perhaps, that the name implies that they kill Daemons? Done forget that as long as Grey Knights are on the table, any Daemons that are Troops Choices automatically get "SUSTAINED ATTACK". The Codex reads, "The Daemonic Infestation rule (sustained attack that i just mentioned) is intended to offset some of the grey Knight's considerable advantages when fighting Daemons. This is done rather than simply making them cost more points, so they are not penalised unfairly when not fighting non-Daemonic opposition.". Remember, already SERIOUSLY expensive, and all weapons options, psychic powers and wargear designed for combat against Daemons.

I collect Dark Angels, Daemonhunters, and Ulthwe Eldar, so before you all start ranting and raving about how unfair an army or specific unit is, at LEAST find out the exact rules and do your homework! Things arent as unbalanced as you all think, infact the only army i can think of as unbalanced (i also have a Tau Codex by the way), is Necrons, as they are as buff as Space Marines, very similar points cost and can raise themselves, but i CAN'T complain about it! Because thats all i know, basic stats and points of like two of their units, so i can't judge.

Thankyou to all that read this and didn't quite half way. ALL IN ALL, TRUST GameWorkshop's judgement, and if you think an army is unbalanced (or a specific unit), playtest them, thats how i test how effective a unit is against different armies (as well as calculating the averages) and create little scenarios (you dont even need the proper models, just use anything, thats what i do!).

I apologise for the EXTREMELY long reply, but i felt that this needed to be sorted out once and for all.

[Lord Dante]

thank u thats pretty much what i would have said - anyone who doesnt have the codex's for all races. and hasnt played at least 5 battles with each race against each other cant say how blanced each side is.

they all work perfectly well and are generally in over a year of testing.

As for space marines - they rick IMO as much as any other 40 race does, except Orks.

Ive been playing 40k since rouge trader, and for me Orks seems outdated and a throw back to GW roots of heavy metal rock music and thrash metal etc...
they just seem out of place to me - im not bashing them as a whole as i do like them, they have character but i just find them a bit hard to swallow in the current 40k world.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Yeah, i agree about the Orks. But then again, not EVERY army has to be futuristic. They are a very good combat army, so i wouldnt mind collecting them if it werent for how they look and their character. Sure, they have character, but their character just doesnt suit me, especially the Warhammer Fantasy Orcs, with their Animosity rule (each unit takes a Morale Check at the start of their turn - Orks have low Ld) and Gork's Warpath spell that can have their god trample either the opponent's troops or your own. I must admit that 40k would feel empty if they were to be removed though.

One thing i forgot to mention about Grey Knights, and thats that if you do choose to give them an Incinerator or Psycannon, they lose their Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter (they lose the +2 to strength and True Grit that gives them a permanent attack bonus), unlike standard Marines that just replace their bolter, as they dont have any specialist equipment to lose. Anyway, thats enough from me and my ramblings. If anyone wants more info just ask.
- Cheers! -

[Diabolical]

Ok this thread is long and filled with very long non paragraphed posts ... so if ive missed a couple of points its cause it was almost impossible to read them hehe.

Basically think the space marines are made to be a specialist army for the 40k TT game ... they have all the things that make a 40k TT army very powefull and therefore walk all over at least half of the other army's out there, especially the guard.

But i think when you scale the game to a different perspective, such as epic then thats where armies like the guard really come into their own.

Now you can really start to see the effect of mass numbers, armour and artillary come into play.
The guard make a dauntingly powerful epic army with all their fancy death dealing machines and the larger the point value of the army the more dangerous they become.

In conclusion, what i am saying is look at what the army is designed to do and use it where it best applies.

[NightBringer]

SOOO MANY LONG POSTS EEEHEHEHEHE

i hate marines, but only for the sould reason that 99.9999999999999% of TT players field them :(. u buy the 3rd edition starter game and what do you get?:

10 marines
1 land speeder

v

what? 20 de warriors. now, i'll pay 5.000 pounds to the person who can say that this makes for a fair game???

the point i'm trying to make is; they should have releaced the orks in the 3rd box game 9as with the 2nd ed), then released the DE sparatly. why you ask? simple... orks have a far better chance of standing up agasint marines than de in a stand up introduction game (in fact i've seen many stores replacing the de with orks/tau/ chaos in their intro games), which in turn woudl give the new fledgling gamers a less biased view of which army to choose to collect.

then the other point is how the staff memeber insesently try to sell marines to you over other races. e.g:

new gamer- " hi i'm interested in starting this game"
staff member- " hi, great, so what kind of army are u looking for? might i suggest the space marines"
new gamer- " well i want something that very shooty, prefering guns to swords"
staff member- " well there are a number of races that like this, theres the tau, necrons, or even, might i suggest the space marines"
new gamer- " well the tau look cool, and the necrons would be easy to start painting i gue-"
staff member- " yes yes, you right there, but *guides gamer to space marines section* i would segguest the spaces, marines; their tough versitile and easy to get started using"

see what i mean. yes they are what the game is all about (basically) but GW seem to have this rediculous bias towards them, and thus, when a store runs a big game for anyone who wants to join in (which as i recall they have stopped doing becasue they want people to focus on (and i hate) the points side of things) u end up with 10 "good" players all with sm, agasint possibly 5-7 players with orks, 'crons etc.

so basically, my point is that the sm are too over rated and over sold, and too many people play them

[Spazhazzard]

Yeah but the people that field the army could be terrible at tactics, thus making them mincemeat and letting an entire part of the board available to the enemy to flank them etc.

[Ramrod]

i hated playing as marines (too "we-do-everything-perfect" for me, not enough weaknesses to give them personality), but i enjoyed playing against them (slower than my tau, not armored enough for my IG autocannons).

[Souless]

Why do people bother arguing with fluff, the fluff is made to flesh out the TT game.
just either bother to take the fluff or leave it.

ie: when tycho died in Armageddon, or so I heard never payed much attention.
Or the now very toasty Eldrad in Eye of Terror, and then games workshop says ,make up your fluff its just to flesh out your armies ect, to kinda give you a feel for what your playing.

No amount of arguing will change the fluff you can't try to use real world logic with Fantasy games, stop try to explain and analise every thing.

I expect to get flamed to the BS for this post. Its just like people now saying there is some super natural conspiracy with Half-Life2, or people in the Halo forums who where saying that there is some underling biblical message to it...

I guess its just things for the Über-nerdy to occupy themselves with.

p.s be critical about my spelling I hate graduating from school and note being able to spell..

[Imperial marine]

ThirdDanScoota: hey now i agree with that i used to play eldar guard nids and chaos they diden't suit my style of play now the space marines they suit my style of having a good all rounded force
you got terminators who are the guys that weaken the enemy the assault marines that storm in and kick the enemy so hard they die instantly well almost and they are fast attack bikes land speeders and things with good firepower vindicators and things like that

[Eldanesh]

I honestly don't mind marines, to play against that is. I have never actually collected them, but the store I go to had about 66% marines, then the rest chaos, and me ( eldar :) )

My solution was to cheese out my list as much as humanly possible agaisnt marines to the point where massed starcannon/lance fire would wipe out 1-2 squads a turn with almost no opporunity for the marines to retaliate (generally out of bolter range, in cover/concealed so no heavy bolters, banshees in serpants, 4-5 guardians with starcannons, wraithlord(s) with starcannons, war walkers with star cannons (up to 6 walkers, thats 12 starcannons), or reapers, vypers with starcannons (if I took reapers), and wave serpant'd farseer-scorpions on tank patrol.

This had the gradual effect of people... becoming convinced that marines sucked. :D

Honestly, marines are a great vanilla army (there has to be one) they are easy to paint when starting out, but still can be very detailed with practice, they have fewer special rules (only tricky one is ATSKNF) and they are resonably forgiving tactically. (if you leave them out in the open rather than in cover they are less likely to all die)

Why hate marines? there is a definite difference between a good marine player and a bad one, just because they can be forgiving does not mean they are at all easy, and marines have a weakness that can be very hard for them to overcome (cheap low-ap weapons) because of their relativly high points cost. You may choose to become angry because there is a large majority of marine players, but that can be a good thing- its easier to gear your lists for them.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Quite right on the Starcannons, thats how i'm making my Ulthwe army. Heres something that most people miss, a squad of 16 Guardian Defenders (not black) with a Warlock using the ever-so useful Conceal, shooting at a unit of ten Marines.
Hitting on 4s, means about 16 hit. Wounding on 4s mean about 8 wound. A 3+ save means about 3 die (on average), with a Starcannon, make that about 5 dead. Theres half a squad down. When you think about it, the Marines arent that tough, its mainly because the shooters cant shoot straight (hence half of the attacks missing from beginning) and/or because the shooter just inst using TACTICS, which they should be. You basically need to blunt their attack and then finish them off, its THAT simple. And yes, i'm a number-cruncher.

Many people say that Marines are a "beginners army". That is correct in certain aspects, but as stated above, they may be forgiving (unlike DE), but if you run in guns blazing without a plan, you're gonna die quickly against anyone thats half-decent.

To be honest though, i actually kinda dont like Chaos that much. They are the other team people go if they dont go SMs. The thingsd that bother me about them are, that they get equipment that are almost like stuff from Fantasy (that is, powerful, non-standard magic items, and not to mention Daemonic Gifts), while armies like SMs get nothing but standard Imperial weapons and items, which are powerful, but standard, nothing unique, other than the Sword Of Secrets and the like. The other thing i dont like about them is that they steal like all of the Imperium's vehicles (including Demolisher, BASILISK, Dreadnought, Land Raider and Crusader, Bikes, Predators etc), and then GamesWorkshop had the nerve to turn around and give them a friggin DEFILER, mounted with like every half-decent and powerful Imperial weapon there is. Talk about spoiling them!

[Eldanesh]

Only one thing really bugs me about marines, and that is their ATSKNF rule that makes them really f'ing hard to break, sure its kinda fitting, but it really can suck to play against at times.

Still leadership and breaking has been weakened a lot in general anyway. The majority of the new chaos stuff is fearless, necrons are fearless, and the new combat rules make it so that crossfires are not the instakill they once were. Marines have always had uber leadership, but at least it can be worked around, tyranids have always had a good near-fearless system that can be worked around, and in general imo these are good and make for interesting gameplay. When the opposing force is 90% fearless with no possible way to break the game just gets stupid unless I am fielding my SEAFH - (Shooty-Eldar-Army-From-Hell)

I mean, forget working warp spiders/hawks behind a line and then forcing a break with banshees when you are dealing with a row of necrons. Might as well save the poitns and get 6 starcannons...

[Imperial marine]

no race is uber

[Mr Shadow]

The idea that one 40k army is better than another is, for me, a grey area of discussion. All the armys apeal to me in different ways......yes, even DE (very powerfull and nasty army).....so the idea that marines are not as good an army is rubbish. They are easy to use but tough to master so they are a naturally easy army for newbis to lern the system with. I have seen some amazinly inventive marine armys and I hope to finish mine one day. Sure, they seem overly good but pay in small numbers...(4 marines in exchange for 10 guards men) so against an enemy that knows your comming you have to work very hard to win.

Just one more thing while Im on a beeatch........Who said that all units in 40k have to be good to be good, if you know what i meen.

[Dimension]

i think marines are among the easier armies to master though. to me, mastering an army means that you manage to work around big disadvantages. marines don't have big disadvantages you need to work around, so its not about mastering the marines per se, its mastering things like targeting priorities and troop placement.

when you have an army that has crap armor (DE), or is otherwise trickey to use (managing eldar aspects comes to mind), you'll have a tougher job mastering the army imo, because the strengths and weaknesses can be seen by the opponent right from the get-go (and prepared for). i don't know how much tougher, but tougher it is.

[wert]

I hate marines, but not as much as i hate eldar hehehe

it depends if those 10 gaurdsmen are all driving a lemon russ - the great eqauliser. Marines do have 1 huge disadvantage, and thats numbers. marine armys dont have as many sqauds, thus lack the ability to split there fire effectivly, marines always seem to by trying to split nuts with slegehammers becasue wile 1 squad of spacemarines is indeed mighty and powerfull, there arnt many of em, and they can only shoot at 1 thing at a time, and they can only take a limited number of heavy weapons per sqaud. If i vital unit is out of place and finds itself to far away from the combat to be effective, then thats a huge chunk of points not doing anytihng usefull, whereas if it was an imperial gaurd squad that had run off after those grots, they can be replaced. Marines are also very vunerable to high power weapons to, wich would be a wast of time against hordes of ork or tyranid footslogers.

[Dimension]

and what if they drive an orange russ?

[wert]

well, then the marines are truly screwed, cos the futures bright, the futures orange

[Thalasion]

But how bout if the marines had orange armour?

[NightBringer]

But how bout if the marines had orange armour?

BASICALLY MY MATES TANGERINE MARINES :p


i have been away fomr the hobby for too long, and have just come back to find... everyone is so hyped up on (points values)... personally i dont give a sh1t about point values, i remember and love when i could go down to my local GW at 2pm on a saturday, and there'd be a huge game waiting to be played, eith u use your own models or the store would lend you some. there was no points there, only stip u laiton was u could take 1HQ/elite (only 1 HQ per side, one player is leader) 2 troops/ 1 troop +1 fast attack/heavy support. and the staff member in charge would remove things if they wer uneven. now thats a game of warhammer 40.000

forget all this (and it seems ot be the norm in stors now) 1v1 pointed battles :smash:, if u want to play that, do it at home or in a tournament! bring back the epic, in-store meatgrinders i say.

tho the on yopic thing about this post is that with the non pointed battle, you'd probably end up seeing equal numbersof marines fighting against he same number of orks etc (which is stupid) :werd:

[Imperial marine]

i don't see why people hate space marines [i hate ultramarines they suck] but anyway you can use your imagenation with marines plenty of coversion oppotunites

[ThirdDanScoota]

I cant be too sure on this, as i am yet to get the new 40k rulebook, but i think that half of the advantage of the ATSKNF rule, is now useless. From what i have heard, the new assault rules are extremely similar to the trial assault rules, meaning that when you win a combat and they flee, when you pursue them you dont actually cut them down and remove the squad, but rather prevent them from even fleeing the combat, keeping the combat in play for next turn. But of course they still automatically regroup at all times.

Personally, i think that 40k is being flooded with so many different special rules and new teams that, well, for example: Commisar Yarrick has a special rule called "iron will", when is kinda like bionics only on a 4+ instead of a 6. Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lords also have "iron will", only it makes them automatically pass all break tests (you can also opt to flee, unlike with fearless units). There are so many different special rules with the same names (true grit also) that do different things, and then an absolute flood of new armies and updated codexes with all this fearless crap in it, meaning to kill them, you MUST ACTUALLY KILL THEM. It may make sense in the fluff that certain things are fearless, and certain things should, but not entire army lists and the like, only very specialised units. I mean, my Deathwing Terminators get stubborn, but i'm paying an extra 5 points for each model for it and cant opt not to, while Necrons get it basically for free on the units i've seen, as well as being as buff as SMs, as well as being able to raise themselves, AS WELL AS being like only a point or two extra than a basic Tactical Marine.

All in all, i believe that they're starting to make it a game of "the buffest wins", reducing the amount of tactical thinking as half the friggin teams are fearless! You basically have to find tactical ways of shooting them to death, only to have them raise up again! I know that Necrons are expensive, but not as expensive as Grey Knights (try an extra 9 or so points for GKs). I'm sure that they are balanced somewhere, but whats the point of even having a Ld stat when half the new things comming out pass everything automatically?

And another thing, why do CSMs get Battle Honours and SMs dont? Not even a single unit, and Imperial guard get them and these new Doctrines. Odd, last time i checked, SMs were ALOT smarter and tactically effective than any Imperial guardsman to walk the earth...

[[IG8]Kasrkin Sturnn]

i dont know why you have a grudge against space marines they totally kick A** and anyway chaos are just as bad with there demons etc and one more thing Necrons or Imperial Guard are not in Dawn Of War maybe they will in the expansion packs or mods?

anyway i have both armies, i have a small army but a mixture of both i have about 82 figures altogether about 41 imperial guard catachans and the other half is 41 Imperial Space Marines with 4 tanks 3 leman russes and 1 basilisk even though its a small army i dont think it would win all the time since i am saving up for somthing really kool (Tamiya 1/16 Sherman Tank RC) anyway once i bought that i can start to recollect my space marine and imperial guard armies. i think i'll buy a 50 pounds box set free with some more space marines/Imperial Guardsmen...

[Gorkamorka]

6 pages of flaming and bickering? Give up already!

[Thalasion]

Never!!!!

[Motoroloko]

Yeah, Sm sucks, even when i´ve been playin´W40k for almost 12 years, i could never understand the love of many people about emperor´s childs. They´re just too good, to rough, and very very boring to play with. Once you play aganist them, you have played against all of them. Too many chapters with diferent upgrades, and a lot of chetas just for making them able to win everithing. Sadly marine players cries loud for more advantages, and in a short period of time, xenocides will appear. So there will be no need to play more W40k for me, ´cause it will be imposible to win them with the new anti-xenos rules...certainly a great way to crash a beatiful game. And marine players still say taht they´re not so good....

[ShadowCrusader]

Meh.. I am more fluff than player but I wish to join this conversation just for the hell of it. Now noting the point about SM in siege warfare I believe that they are totally correct in stating that SM are basically worthless. Now that that is out of the picture lets move on.

I read at some point that SM's are only good at holding one position. Very true but what that one position can be defined. 10 SM's can hold a one position against possibly 100. Wow. But increase the amount of SM's and increase the amount of land they can control. *Due note if Siege weapons come in, their finished.

Also, before and during the Horus Heresy, Yes the Imperial Guard, Navy, and whatnot were part of the forces, but it was mostly Legion that did the jobs of getting the world. They just came to mop it up. That quote for there is less than one SM for every planet in the Imperiam is great truley right in the sense. But before this the Emporer creates a vast number of super-troopers at his height. They assualted, scourged, and left planets clean except for few pockets for the rest of the forces to sweep in and do it again to another planet. Yes, they are task-specific creatures but relating to how many of them are present and how big the task corolates to their talents.

Here comes the flame, BOSS. Here comes the flame.

[DDZ_Goldstrike]

The trick to beating marines is getting enough firepower on the assault units while assaulting the shooty units.

Having played DE quite a bit against Blood Angels, this is especially true.

[peer]

After being resurrected several times, I think it's time for this thread to die. It's not like it's constructive in any way.