[1.8] Stikbommas can stun retreating units

[OVFellblade]

There isn't a topic discussing this already on the relicnews forums that I can see...

Can anyone see any way in which this is vaguely balanced?

[The_nuketrooper]

Either the balance team got quietly fired due to the world economic crisis or da warboss gave them a head...banging. That's the only logical explaination I have. Apparently nothing is supposed to disrupt retreating units so this is a glaring omission that needs to be corrected. Especially when the abusive unit has 60 units of throwing range and the retreat routes are dead easy to determine and cannot be altered.
Expect ork uprowwaaaaaaagh on the matter.

[Malachi]

Yup. Stun retreating + 60 range + insta-stun(no countdown)?

Who could actually think this is going to be balanced?

I'd advise removing retreat stun from Stikkbommaz and the 25% damage bonus against heavy infantry from Rangers as a fast 1.9 quickfix.

[OVFellblade]

I'm actually slightly concerned about the balance ramifications of the new Stikbommas without the stun-on-retreat issue, but I don't think I can face a significant amount of ranked play with the current issues.

[Malachi]

Yeah, I think they would be bad even with retreat stun removed. I guess the stun grenade should just have it's timer back so it's more dodgeable.

I don't think I like the whole Loota/Stikkbomma T1/T2 switch at all.

[ph03nIXx]

@Stun on Retreating units

Well, if nothing is supposed to stun retreating units, then why does the Hit-the-ground-and-stun-ability of the Dread and the Stun Grenades of the KNob just that, and that is since something like ... ever?

[Phoenixlight]

There's no need to remove the extra damage rangers can deal to heavy infantry they're fine.

[Wafflecopter]

@Phoenixlight

You're kidding, right. Not only do rangers one-shot scouts, but they two-shot tacs and ASM. A sniper unit doing that insane amount of damage from a screen away to one of the slowest and most expensive infantry units in the game is "fine"?

[OVFellblade]

This thread wasn't about rangers. This thread was about stikbommas stunning units on retreat, possibly expanding to encompass the new stikbomma stun mechanics. There are a couple of threads just talking about Rangers now.

[Melonplant]

Wafflecopter got trolled :P

The loota stikkbomma change was foolish. There's no reliable counter (sluggas with flamers are hard as hell to make fire at the building) to machine guns in buildings now and I never wanted to build a loota anyways.

I'm off to go abuse the stun on retreating units now!

[Malachi]

@Stun on Retreating units

Well, if nothing is supposed to stun retreating units, then why does the Hit-the-ground-and-stun-ability of the Dread and the Stun Grenades of the KNob just that, and that is since something like ... ever?During the game's balancing process various slow / stun / knockdown abilities were changed not to work on retreating units. I'd say removing that from Stikkbommaz' and KNob's grenade is nexessary to fit with those changes, especially due to Orkz being a melee heavy race that can slaughter the stunned targets immediately when they reach it, with Waaghed! Sluggas, for example.

[Giladas]

Or at least make it so that if you are stunned yet retreating the units beating you up don't get the massive damage boost. The KNob grenade issue is one that I hope will get fixed every time a new patch comes in but it never is. Hopefully one day it will be, an infiltrated KNob is really hard to counter reliably and once he gets the 'nade in all he needs to do is attack-move with sluggas and you are boned.

As for the dreads fist stun, I am all for removing it as well. Personally I think that pretty much nothing in this game should effect retreating units in a hindering way, it is such a core mechanic. You should get punished for making mistakes, it shouldn't be foolproof to just hit retreat every time you make a mistake, but it shouldn't also doom your guys to a quick death like with the KNob stun that means you do no damage and you can't get away either.

Giladas

[craft-star]

I think we either should support heavy punishment for retreating, or completly not. (Well not in squad loss)
The current situation is that playing some races gives u the advantage of free kills, while others dont.
Also shees plus warlock global plus FoF can also be fun.

[Troubleshooter]

I think we either should support heavy punishment for retreating, or completly not. (Well not in squad loss)
It is already bad enough having to retreat a squad from the far side of a slugga mob... its now instant death if the ork has any stikks. If you retreat your whole army through, its GG. Balance my ass...

I have the change log for 1.9 here though... I'll skip to the good part.
* Added hot key. "X" now concedes match and closes the game.

[craft-star]

It is already bad enough having to retreat a squad from the far side of a slugga mob... its now instant death if the ork has any stikks. If you retreat your whole army through, its GG. Balance my ass...

I have the change log for 1.9 here though... I'll skip to the good part.
* Added hot key. "X" now concedes match and closes the game.
I still have nightmares about 2 banshees killing 3 gu squads of miine while retreating in calderis foundry. :moefixed: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Chaos Von Draco]

When stuff like this get into the game you have to wonder what the balance team is on. It ever so nice when you weren't paying attention to one of your squads for just a second and bam stunned and screwed.

[Susurrus]

What I don't get is that there was outcry when the same thing happened in CoH.. The assault grenades ability for the wehrmacht got stun, and everyone complained (rightly), because it disrupted retreat, and meant that units were an easy kill.

But instead of listening to all the complaints, and filing under "don't do this", the balance team for DoW2 seems entirely oblivious, and has done exactly the same thing, with the same outcry, as in CoH.

[Giladas]

The even stranger part is that Relic has been pretty consistent in removing abilities that affect retreat (Full Auto from the Apo bolter for example, or Entangle from WSE or the Crippling Talons speed debuff from Ravener). Sure they haven't all been removed at the same time (LA jump is a great example of this, only just been removed), but it seems that every time a unit gets a new ability that causes either stun or knockdown it starts out working wrong, affecting retreat. With retreat being such a core mechanic of DoW 2 multiplayer, you would think that even one guy would go through the new abilities double-checking that they don't affect retreat. Seemingly that is not so, and that is pretty sad.

Of course, this is all from the viewpoint that the KNob and Stikkbomma stun 'nades are working incorrectly. Could be that Relic intends them to be the only abilities that do affect even retreating units, although in that case I would love to hear what is the reasoning behind giving one of the most easily melee spammable armies not one but two abilities that makes their already great melee troops even more effective. Is this the way for Relic to make sure that sluggas stay relevant even in T2, since they get stikkbomma support ?

I doubt it.

Giladas

[craft-star]

Well it could be balanced out if all races had stun.
Asm: Blind granades-Starting ability, able to target anything with it
Nids: Ravaneers? Well.... Actually i have no idea what could be a good solution for this race. Maybe spore secondary.
Eldar: No frickin idea what could be buffed even more here.

[Giladas]

As long as units that are retreating in slow-mo due to stun take the full retreat melee damage penalty, it won't be balanced. Some armies have much more "dedicated" melee, some armies have little (banshees although they rock so hard that I don't think anybody minds) to none (unless you count assault termis). Although it would be fun jumping ASM on some enemies, throwing a blind grenade and then moving your whole marine army to melee the peeps that are desperately trying to get away :p "Today we honor the Emperor by saving all of His Holy Ammunition !"

[craft-star]

I think im gona start the "Give Asms Blinds Cult".
Would be epicly fun. Imagine 4 gu squads blobbed. Asm jumps in nades and tacs start meleeing O.O

[craft-star]

Ps: I have to add to the discussion, that stikkbomz are not OP, unless the ork gets tankbustas or rolls a knob and rushed t3. Still its a t2 threat, which IMO is not such a big issue as t1 rangers.

[Malachi]

Well, Rangers only really affect SM really.

Stikkbomaz affect all races.

You really think that Slugga charge + Stun nade = all your units dead is balanced? :moefixed:

[Giladas]

Well, you have the off chance in T2 that you are running vehicles already that aren't affected by the Stun 'nade. Not saying that this is balanced, just that in T2 it is possible you already have some effective counters against Slugga spam even if you get stunned, while if this was possible in T1 as well you would be well and truly boned in any situation.

[craft-star]

Just tried this out after smoking: 3 stikkbombz. Chain stun and chain granades. Oh boy those poor tacs.