Why always ultramarines

[Urulf]

The subject says everything.

Why in the War40k PC games they always use the ultramarines as the playable race?

Well I have to say than in Space hulk they use Dark Angels for the first and Blood angels for the second and in Fire warrior salamanders ( If I remenber well, but not playable, only an enemy more). But that is in space hulk series.

Why not the imperial firsts or Space Wolves (my army) or any other from the first founding....

It's so hard to use other color than blue by game designers ??

that is all.. for now

------------------------------------------------------------------------
‘What would you have me do, Great Wolf?’
‘I would put you out of harm’s way, in a place where you
might do some good.’
‘Exile, Great Wolf?’
‘That would be one way of looking at it. Tell me Ragnar,
what do you know of the Wolfblades?’

[Noir]

...Because the Ultramarines were the largest group of marines to survive the Horus Heresy?

[Maximus Decimus]

i believe they did this so not to cause anger amongst the fans because they could easily state oh why space wolves why couldnt it be the blood angels etc etc etc. that is my belief and mybe they changed to this strategy from getting feedback on space hulk like ppl complaining why their chapter was not featured. Ultramarines r the choice because they r the generic chapter that is entirely codex astartes and most ppl wont complain why ultras why not space wolves that was unfair. if they release sequels which would be awesume mybe then they can incorporate the plot around another chapter. so simply ultras are just the default choice that wont get most ppl complaining about how unfair it was to take say space wolves over blood angels.

[starrider]

they're generic. if my theroy is correct, and they implement a coustomizeable badge/color system, then the screenies showing ultra marines are like the screens of hw2 with the generic fleet color & badge. thats the default, they give u a few badges to start with, and the options for color changablity. (most likely some sort of preset for those who want to have space wolves dark/blood angels etc)

although this is all purely speculation.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah that would be nice but some ppl as they have stated would be displeased cause and this is true space wolves arnt ultras with a diff color scheme. i guess that is the best they can do for at least initial release cause i dont expect them to make the diff units for diff chapters. anyway i do hate the smurfs but am fine with using them in the game anyway.

:king:

[starrider]

well, itd be a bit much for them to make a separate race for each chapter, race variation, and everything us 40k fans are used to. i think it's resonable that we can get even the custom color schemes, as said before, its more than we've gotten before.

[Maximus Decimus]

very true and that is the bottom line of things. i too think its unreasonable to have all the races in it and have them all play uniquely like they r supposed to but this is discussed in the army thread.

[blood_angel]

Easiest to model and skin.

[No Surrender]

They define the concept of the vanilla space marine. After all, it was their primarch who came up with the Codex Astartes.

[z-beam]

and if its going to be a codex following chapter it's better blue than yellow (imperial fists).

i have an ultrasmurf army but the only thing that makes 'em look half decnt is the fith company black shoulder rims.

[DarthFelth]

their are alot of chaptors that generic marines you know, Ultramarines are way over used..

[The Collector]

UltraMarines have the best gene-seed and the most gene-seed. They had the most marines before the Heresy and most of them survived to be formed into multiple chapters. Majority of Astartes descend from Ultramarines stock because it's good stuff.

They *invented* doctrine and follow it to the letter. They're probably the most warrior-ish of all the Chapters...warrior in the sense of being like Samurai rather then Visigoth barbarians. They're highly organized and reasonably "civilized" compared to other chapters.

That and wearing a Omega on your shoulder-pad is so cool. In any case, do UltraMarines have any inherent disadvantage compared to other chapters?

[Maximus Decimus]

+++++WARNING U R ABOUT TO START A FLAME WAR++++++++

key things

1) the reason they r used is cause they r the symbol of vanilla marines and they r the only vanilla marine 1st founder

2) they are NOT the most warrior like orginization. why? they dont have a real sense of martial pride and HONOR. the Space Wolves beats them in Honor and martial pride as one is judge and ranked to how well he is in combat(same as samurai) rather then how smart the f*ck is(ultras). Ultras also do not have the sense of sacrafice(samurai) as the imperial fists do. the ultras do have honor and "sacrafice for the emperor"(every imps moto) but they are not as warrior like as the wolves, imps, or dark angels.

3) the ultras gene seed is the most vanilla and up tight codex astartes rule followers, hmm high lords are thinking who to take... the ultras gene seed and have the chapters follow us to the letter or say the space wolves or dark angels where they wont follow our commands most of the time. they simply took the gene seed that had the most likely hood of creating chapters that would jump off a bridge if the lords simply wanted to see that for fun.

:flame:

[starrider]

i belive he might've ment warrior organization, in regards to the codex astartes.

[ObsceneName]

ultramarines = biggest chapter
and largest number of geneseed
and once again
space wolves have the genetic defect 13th company
blood angels every blood angel geneseed is defected
dark angels are rouge for the most part

[starrider]

also, the dark angels are the unforgiven, so they have that working against them aswell

[IWAssassin]

Lots of reasons... Among them just like Space Marines are THE Symbol of 40k, the Ultramarines are THE Symbol of the Space Marines.

Go back a few years, before GW decided all chapters should have special rules, and ALL Chapters except the three Heretics [Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves] followed the Codex Astartes to the letter, and the Codex Astartes was DEVELOPED by the Ultramarines [or their Primarch at least].

Also of note, more chapters have been created from the Ultramarine parent than any other Chapter in the Imperium. They are also the most respected chapter, one whos greatest.

Theres also the fact that without question through history they've been the generic marine. Have it be Space Wolves and the BA and DA will have reason to complain. Have it be BT and pretty much everyone has a reason to complain. From there you get into the fairly obscure chapters. Ultramarines have no such arguement because they're seen by the players as the generic marine, as they always have been, despite the fact that the Heretical Chapters have more men [in direct violation of the Codex Astartes, written by the Ultramarines, regarded as a holy writ, and thus violation is heresy]

[Maximus Decimus]

Correction: Ultras biggest? no, 1000 strong therefore black templar and space wolves are larger chapters as they number at 10 000/12 000. Ultras do have their own guard regiments though. yes they do have the most pure geneseed but that is not what i was argueing. i was argueing the case where he said that ultras are the most "warrior" like. the wulfen curse in regards to the 13th company is something that the weak recruits become as they cannot tame the beast within(read Space Wolf to get this) its a curse to all those too weak to control the beast within. the blood angels have the black rage because of their primarchs heroic sacrifice but violent death against horus. oh Imperial forces do not know the treachory of Luthor i believe it was and therefore the high lords have nothing against them except the fact that dark angels are not a codex chapter. ultras are simply the ones who contributed the most since they worship the codex like they do the emperor as it is a set of rules made by their primarch. id say that ultras to date now have suffered alot of casualties and are not even the biggest chapter anymore as they did lose their 1st company during the incurrsion with the nids correct?. note when i say not the biggest chapter i mean marine wise only not entire force as it includes imp navy and imps. alot of ppl get that confused and think that they somehow number past what their precious codex astartes strictly states "no legion can number more then 1000 strong".

do u think they were chosen cause they were the biggest legion? no they were chosen cause as i stated would jump off a bridge if a high lord wished it. what most of u dont understand is that they were NOT the biggest legion when it comes to marines they just had the most armed forces ala imperial guard, naval ships, etc, to guard theyr system remeber they still numbered at 10 000.
to date they number at 1000 or less as they lost theyr first company due to nid incursion i believe(not totally sure).

[Shim]

If they weren't the biggest legion then how did they manage to divide into over 20 chapters after the heresy? Correct me If I'm wrong but none of the other legions divided into anywhere near that many

[ankara halla]

You are both correct.
Pre-Heresy times the Ultramarines weren´t really that much bigger than any other legion but the thing is that the Ultramarines didn´t take much part in the wars during the Heresy and thus came out relatively unscathced (especially compared to other legions like the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scarcs which took severe losses defending the Imperial palace.)
Immediatly after the Heresy the Ultramarines were by far the strongest legion of loyal marines left and was thus broken into so many more chapters than the other legions.

Nowdays the Ultramarines keep their strenght, as written by their Primarch, at around 1000 marines (They did lose their entire 1st company in the Tyranid invasion though) but apart from this the Ultramarines directly command the PDF´s of several worlds which is pretty unique among the marine chapters.

Also, ATM, about 3/5ths of all the Chapters are based on Ultramarines geneseed.

[Shim]

And also their own fleet.

Not really on topic, but does anyone know about the rumour that came up awhile ago about the Ultramarines planning to break away from the Imperium and become independent? hah, dont know where I got that but its kinda interesting...

[ankara halla]

Well, all Chapters have their own fleets so the Ultramarines are no different in that regard.
I´m not aware of them having any control over any Imperial fleets if this was what you were saying?


As to the rumor, no haven´t heard about it and it does seem quite far fetched to say the least... .. . :)

[Torgo]

That wouldn't make any sense at all with the Ultra style
that's probably run-off from the Eye of Terror Campaign.

[Shim]

I'm pretty sure the Ultras control something like the fleet of Ultramar or something, and it must be quite large if it beat off Hive Fleet Behemoth.

I'm not sure where I heard that rumour from...Hmm, I think there were a few threads on Portent about it.

[starrider]

its the empire of ultramar to be more specific, its there own private secotr thngy pretty much.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, thank u for pointing that out. yes the ultras have control over a few planets that harbour regiments, naval bases, etc. they do not control them directly but are considered part of them because if the ultras need help those planets will be the first to help and wont refuse. i doubt very much that the ultras will split cause that would be called heresy and heresy begets retribution so there would be another civil war with probebly all 1st founders and guard loyal to them against all loyal to the high lords.

[Van]

Originally posted by Maximus Decimus
+++++WARNING U R ABOUT TO START A FLAME WAR++++++++

key things

1) the reason they r used is cause they r the symbol of vanilla marines and they r the only vanilla marine 1st founder

2) they are NOT the most warrior like orginization. why? they dont have a real sense of martial pride and HONOR. the Space Wolves beats them in Honor and martial pride as one is judge and ranked to how well he is in combat(same as samurai) rather then how smart the f*ck is(ultras). Ultras also do not have the sense of sacrafice(samurai) as the imperial fists do. the ultras do have honor and "sacrafice for the emperor"(every imps moto) but they are not as warrior like as the wolves, imps, or dark angels.

3) the ultras gene seed is the most vanilla and up tight codex astartes rule followers, hmm high lords are thinking who to take... the ultras gene seed and have the chapters follow us to the letter or say the space wolves or dark angels where they wont follow our commands most of the time. they simply took the gene seed that had the most likely hood of creating chapters that would jump off a bridge if the lords simply wanted to see that for fun.

:flame:

1)They may be plain but they are the most recognizable chapter that isnt full of impurities and gene deviation. After the HH it was the Ultramarines that held together the Imperium until mankind could regroup. They were the largest chapter and were subsequently broken up to found newer chapters. While they did miss most of the HH action they were credited with the destruction of a large Chaos reenforcement headed to aid Horus.

2) Only in your mind is the Honor of a Ultramarine less than that of a SW. Purely a personal judgement call influenced by your personal favortism of Space Wolves. In my mind Marneus Calgar is as honorable as any space wolf.

3) The gene seed of Ultramarines is the most pure. Some chapters choose not to infest their genetic lines with corruption and deviation. Instead the choose to stick to long held codes of honor and chivilary.


Dont hate on the Warriors of Ultramar. They and their brethen are the equal of any other chapter. Just ask Cheif Librarian Tigurius.



(I own around 8k points, 2nd ed. values, in Ultramarines. They were my first army and the one i still like the most.)

[ankara halla]

Actually, considering the resources of each planet (troops, fleets, etc. etc.) are under the direct control of the planetary governors who in turn are subservant to the Lord McGragge (the governor of the world of McGragge and the chapter master of the Ultramarines) I´d say the Ultramarines chapter does have direct control over the PDF´s of the Ultramar systems.

The fleet of Ultramar is in effect the combined vessels of all the planets in the realm of Ultramar (which are mostly transports though) plus the Ultramarines own fleet.
But the thing is that the fleet of Ultramar didn´t beat Hive Fleet Behemont on it´s own. Re-enforcemnts were called to boast the defences the minute the Tyranid threath came in to the knowledge of the Imperium and there was a whole battlegroup of Imperial ships to fight alongside the Ultramar fleet by the time Behemont finally attacked.
On top of that, a second Imperial battlegroup, the Tempestos (or something like that... I´m going from memory here... :/ ), arrived in the nick of time to drive off the last of the Tyranid ships.
The original battlegroup as well as the fleet of Ultramar were all but wiped out during the invasion.

[Maximus Decimus]

ok ok, u saying i say this cause i am a space wolf? no, did i not include imperial fists even though i hate them as much as ultras. they are honorable yes but they do not have the sense of sacrafice as the imperial fists(trait of samurai code) or the keen sense of honor on the battle field as a space wolf. its simple the space wolves background is of warriors who only succeed through slaying great foes honorably in combat while a ultra will succeed through birth right(noble) influencing the course of a battle or otherwise. note: the battle where the dark angels and space wolves attacked a fortress, the wolves wanted to confront their foes in battle while dark angels wanted to go through the back door the ultras would do the same. i am not saying that ultras are not honorable warriors all i am saying is that ultras are not the best example of the "warrior" in the galaxy as the guy pointed out. all space marines will die for the emperor and have honor but some more then others. the guy who started this flame war said that the smurfs are THE BEST WARRIORS of all space marines and rival the warrior code of that by the samurai which is not true. The last Samurai was based off a true story where the samurai would die before dishonor and went into battle only to sacrafice themselves for what they believe in. go b*tch to the guy who stated THAT THE ULTRAS ARE THE SAMURAI OF ALL SPACE MARINES AND SAYING THEY ARE THE BEST MARINES. the imp marines are more towards the sacrafice ways of the samurai while wolves are more towards the success through martial skill part of the code(martial pride and death before dishonor, they believe stabbing ur opponent in the back when hes not lookin is dishonorable which although is smart IS dishonorable).

u state that ultras are equal to all marines ok tell that to the guy who started this. note i do not see ultras as unequals but i do not see them as the elite of the emperors finest.

[DarthFelth]

personaly i think the Blood angels are a better example, in some ways, bu not others, i like wolves as well, they are more savage warriors, relying on brute force more than tech, unlike most codex chaptors ie, Ultra smurfs ;)

[deggy]

Originally posted by Maximus Decimus
the wolves wanted to confront their foes in battle while dark angels wanted to go through the back door the ultras would do the same.

Actually, the Ultramarines would do whatever their Primarch and author of the official Codex Astartes, Roboute Guilliman, thought was the best way to assault a fortification. That's what makes them the Ultramarines, their strict adherence to the letter of the Codex. The Codex Astartes is, for all intents and purposes, the definition of what it is to be a Space Marine and how a Space Marine should act both on the battlefield and off. Written down by the noble Roboute Guilliman and sanctified by the Emperor himself, " Other Chapters may freely interpret the words of Guilliman but, to the Ultramarines, such deviation is unthinkable."-GW

http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/spacemarines/astartes/ultramarines/default.htm

Chapters like the Space Wolves care not to follow the Codex and are only allowed to flaunt the High Lords of Terra due to their steadfast guardianship of their sector. Others like the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Raven Guard are permitted their deviant behaviors for whatever personal reasons I, a humble servant, can not even begin to imagine.

Ultramarines are THE quintessential Space Marine Chapter, looked up to and revered by all others, out of respect for their accomplishments in defending the Imperium if for nothing else.

But this is in no way a reflection of their involvement in DoW. To that end, I have no comment.

[ankara halla]

Originally posted by deggy

...involvement in DoW. To that end, I have no comment.


... *sigh* ... :(

[Tribunal]

He said "their involvement," not that they were the main forces to play.

Maybe they are just going to be the tutorial forces, playing through the Horus Heresy, and once you are past that you could select one of several chapters to view history through several sets of eyes (shrugs).

All we know is that there were several models being shown in pictures, that it involves intense front-line combat, and that there is a dedicated, 40k playing and educated group behind the game. What more could you aske for from developers?

[IWAssassin]

Dark Angels are allowed because their violations of the Astartes are known to NOBODY outside the Chapter, and were someone to find out, they'd do whatever it took to execute them.

Blood Angels are tolerated mainly because they try their damnedest to follow the Holy Writ of the Astartes, and the High Lords do feel sorry for them.

Its the Black Templars complete disregard for the Codex Astartes I cant understand. Their quest for chapter glory above defense of the emperor makes them EXTREMELY dangerous to the Imperium. You cant trust them to hold the line because they might decide theres more glory in charging instead.

The Blood Angels at least, if they fail to hold the line, you can be damned sure they'll make a mess of the enemy, often giving the Imperium an advantageous position over where they would be had the Angels of Death followed orders.

[ankara halla]

Originally posted by Tribunal
He said "their involvement," not that they were the main forces to play.

Yeah, I did notice that...
However I was mostly *sigh*:ing at Relics usual lack to comment on anybodies involment in the game :)

Also, I´m a Squat at heart who due to unfotunate circumstances is forced to play the second coolest army in the game, the Sons of Sanguinius!, and as such am not all that interested in the actual involment of Ultramarines in DOW apart from the obvious guess that these are the guys will be the Imperiums finest line of defence against whatever foes Relic/GW decides to throw at them :)

[Tribunal]

Pretty soon we'll get some more details, they are saying as much as they are allowed to. It's one of those things that come with the signing of the contracts and those 'don't give anything out or we'll sue you to until you're flipping burgers' non-disclosure agreements.

[IWAssassin]

All hail the holy NDAs. I like NDAs, it protects my crap from other people. At the very least lets me sue the shit outta em if they give away my stuff.

[ankara halla]

@Tribunal:
True that.

However, I grew up to hanging around in game developers boards in the haydays of BIS (around the time BG2 was announced) where the devs. were heavily involved with the fanbase. Unless you´ve spent time with the people who used to work there (may BIS Rest In Peace) it´s impossible to describe it in mere words but it might give an idea to point out that some of the NPC characters in BG2 were named after some of the most active and producive members of the boards...
Same with BIO in pre-NWN days (BIO was still part of those same boards back then) when the devs. in a day-to-day basis took up various issues of the development of NWN with the members of the boards.

And having said that, I fully understand and symphatise with Relics position in developing a game in conjuction with a company like GW but even so I find such comments as made above *sigh* worthy :)

[Tribunal]

I know some people that are in some game companies and I knew that they just wanted to blab about every single detail about the game, but they were worried about the news getting out and losing the contract, getting sued, and never getting another contract again.

If the team at Relic was just making their own game, they MIGHT give out some more info, but there's always the issue of having the competition knowing what you are doing and what your overall goals for the game are and trying to beat you to it or trying to one-up it right away. Also, there's the "too-much-hype-itis" syndrome that they are trying to make sure doesn't pop-up, because whenever it does pop-up, in the end no game can ever live up to it.

[ankara halla]

Hey, I agree with you :)

...though the way BIS handled game development wasn´t by simply "blabbing" about the details of the coming game but by taking into account the constructive critisism directed against their ideas on how to actually make the game and by modifying the concept of the project where they saw it appropriate to do so... now THAT was interacting with your fan base and I don´t honestly expect to ever see anything like it again...

[Tribunal]

:lol:

Yeah, I hear you (and so do they, heh). It would be great if we could know the specifics of what they can/cannot discuss on the boards, heck, I'm not even sure if they are allowed to discuss the specifics of the finer points of their NDA. If we were allowed to know what we can/cannot ask about, then maybe the idea that you had re. the input of the community might work in great. However, from what I have read this game is well into its development cycle, so I'm not sure how much affect we could have on the game even now.

One thing that's been mulling around in my mind, if the Relic team is working on front-line, close combat style battles, is there another group that is working on a epic scale battle in the 40k universe? None of the older games work on the Xp windows systems etc, and since I know that a great close-quarters game is coming along, I would LOVE to out a quality epic game.

[Urulf]

Originally posted by IWAssassin
Lots of reasons... Among them just like Space Marines are THE Symbol of 40k, the Ultramarines are THE Symbol of the Space Marines.



Well if you had seen the cover of the Space Marine Codex the Chapter isn't the Ultramarines... they are blue, but don't... they are crimson firsts chapter (look at their right hand/glove). That is for the 3º version.

For the 2º version there are 3 books: they use the crimson too in one of them and blood angles in the other 2 cover books.

And for Rogue trader the book cover was the crimson first and the campaing and examples they use are for that chapter.

So don't think the ultramarines are the better example for SM

Ah, the most pure gen seed was the Son of Emperor Chapter (It's come in the index astartes I) Pre-heresy and actualy the Ultramarines, Dark Angles and Night Lords.


And we are talking about using other chapter than Ultramarines in DoW, just for see another color into ours screen, not really talking because they are the best, the most wonderful, the presttiest.... bla bla bla ;)

[DarthFelth]

Ultramarines are poo, plane and simple, they the boy scoutts or the galaxy, they make me sick :p

[Van]

They may seem to be plain and simple to some, but the "cheese factor" is lowest with those party guys from Ultramar.




Originally posted by Maximus Decimus
. i am not saying that ultras are not honorable warriors


Actually you did. By saying that they are not as good warriors as a DA, Imp Fist, SW etc, you are saying just that. I am not trying to flame you or start a flame war though. Just want to point out that just because a UM didnt have the feral upbringing of a SW or the bloodlust of a BA, doesnt mean that he is not as good a warrior on the battlefield or that he will try to find some sneaky way in(back door).

Have you read the 40k novels with the Ultramarines? Some good stuff with lots of honor for the chapter, earned in glorious battle.

Yes, yes, they lack the flavor and spice of chapters like the Wolves, DA, BA and the new chapters that have had fluff released with 3rd ed., but they are warriors on par with any.

I have nothing against the "darker" chapters and their history. It makes for some great reading and adds lots of atmosphere to 40k, but...

The rightous steadfastness and strict adherance to the code of the Ultramarines is glorious and honorable in its own right.

Lets just all hope that when DoW is released there will be a skinning tool to allow us each to dress up our Space Marines in our favorite colors. That way at least while they may all be the same tech wise, they will at least look like the armies each of us love so much.

[DarthFelth]

that would be cool, as said before a Blood angel or a Space Wolve id nothing like a Ultramarine, i think one major difference would be, erm fangs ;)

[Braxis]

Plus the fact that GW use Ultramarines as their 'template'. They appear all over their products and you are told to paint them that way in the codex (but thats 4 n00bs).

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, note i did not start the flame war take a look at the first post i made regarding the ultras in that fashion and u will see that the user above me CLEARLY STATED that ULTRAS are the best damn warriors in the galaxy, that they r the elite of the space marines. u defend against my sayings against the ultras but take a look at what this guy said about every other damn chapter.

[Maximus Decimus]

UltraMarines have the best gene-seed and the most gene-seed. They had the most marines before the Heresy and most of them survived to be formed into multiple chapters. Majority of Astartes descend from Ultramarines stock because it's good stuff.

They *invented* doctrine and follow it to the letter. They're probably the most warrior-ish of all the Chapters...warrior in the sense of being like Samurai rather then Visigoth barbarians. They're highly organized and reasonably "civilized" compared to other chapters.

That and wearing a Omega on your shoulder-pad is so cool. In any case, do UltraMarines have any inherent disadvantage compared to other chapters?

he is wrong on many apsects, they had the same number of marines but participated in the least amount of battles during the heresy therefore coming out the strongest chapter.

Ultra marines follow the "Art of War" moreso then any samurai trait. the art of war puts down honor and incourages tactics above honor.

They are as civilized as any other chapter. this was posted by the collector so go b*tch to him about it. he started this flame war

[Shim]

"Because of its strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties."

Excerpt from Codex Ultramarines 2nd ed.

[Maximus Decimus]

alright but thats not what the issue was about ok. strange though that each legion CONSISTS of 10 000 men but yet ultras go against the usual? ppl say that most pre 3rd edition fluff has been disregarded. note the emperors battle with horus changes i believe twice. i dont know but i wont argue with u, i do know that ultras do have theyr own navy fleet and some guard regiments but pre-heresy "space marine" wise i dont know if they were rlly bigger. now after the heresy they are not the largest space marine chapter. but the collector shouldnt try to glorify the ultras so much and insult every other chapter like that.

[Shim]

Pre 3rd ed fluff is disregarded? Isn't most fluff from 2nd ed? lol. I dont know, haven't followed 40k much lately...Anyway it says in the Index Astartes: Ultramrines article in WD that they were the largest legion, so I think we can put that to rest...

I agree with you about Collector though I think he said that because everyone is always putting the Ultras down.

[Maximus Decimus]

hmm i dont know he sounded pretty cocky there. he knew what he said was gonna piss ppl off so he should get a warning, besides who wouldnt know that wouldnt tick ppl off.

[DarthFelth]

if they were the biggerst, they ant anymore, Space Wolves and Black Temps are the biggets ones

[Maximus Decimus]

yes they r to my gratitude. each great company is 1000 strong with their own heavy, elites, etc(not specialized like regular companies).

[DarthFelth]

it dont say the size in any books that i have read, as far as i understoodfrom epic, they 120 stong, 100 marines, 20 wolfguard, 12 normal companies plus a extra one for the greatwolf that contain all dreadnoughts, scouts, etc

[IWAssassin]

Sligfhtly wrong on fluff. A Legion had at LEAST 10,000 Marines - the Legion Strength was inherently variable after that point. There was no cap on number of marines you could have till the Codex Astartes was written.

Biggest these days, Black Templar, because they're a bunch of glory seeking heretics. Next are the Space Wolves who are corrupted heretics.

[Maximus Decimus]

lol wolves arnt corrupt, dude darthfelth u say they follow codex? they dont they gave the high lords the finger and left a long time ago. if u read old pre 3rd edition fluff i believe it states it there and im a little foggy on my memory of "Space Wolf" but it might say there. on another note do u rlly think theyd make em 1000 strong in epic?? no. they made em 120 strong for balancing reasons to represent that they have bigger companies but cant up it to 1000 that would be crazy. anyway black temps and wolves are the biggest chapter but they also are the chapters who listen to the high lords the least as well.

[Van]

Originally posted by Maximus Decimus


yeah, note i did not start the flame war take a look at the first post i made regarding the ultras in that fashion and u will see that the user above me CLEARLY STATED that ULTRAS are the best damn warriors in the galaxy, that they r the elite of the space marines. u defend against my sayings against the ultras but take a look at what this guy said about every other damn chapter.


Calm down Max. This is no flame war and doesnt even qualify as one.




he is wrong on many apsects, they had the same number of marines but participated in the least amount of battles during the heresy therefore coming out the strongest chapter.

Ultra marines follow the "Art of War" moreso then any samurai trait. the art of war puts down honor and incourages tactics above honor.

They are as civilized as any other chapter. this was posted by the collector so go b*tch to him about it. he started this flame war

Again, not a flame war.


He is passionate about his chapter. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone talks smack. Lots of the GW fluff is incomplete and leaves a lot open for speculation about the chapters. In the Ultramarine 2nd ed. codex it says the Ultramarines were the largest chapter following the HH. They were subsequently brokin up following the founding of the Codex and the creation of other chapters followed.

As for the BT and SW being the largest now, i'll take your word for it. I know nothing of the 3rd ed. rules.

The Codex doesnt "put down" honor. It specifies guidlines for chapter organisation, tactics, operations, training, etc. In fact i believe i read in the fast that is specifies how a marine should act in honorable ways in and out of battle.

Each chapter has its ways and traditions unique to themselves. All are honorable.

I'm going to go dig up my old codex and see if i can find some examples of Ultramarine battlefield honor...

[Maximus Decimus]

alright alright. just dont like it when ppl talk smack like that. i guess it the official forums of GW that have worn my nerves cause lots of ppl complain about crap, want tau sniper which are not needed, and talk smack. i apologize. anyway besides the argument wev had this thread has been resolved in posts that go way back.

i didnt necessarily mean "put down honor" i rlly meant they favor tactics over the finer pts of honor. u familiar with the art of war? well that pretty much favors tactics above honor. the man said the ultras are "the samurai" of 40k while they follow the Art of War which goes against the Old Samurai Code. The ultras are still honorable as every space marine of the imperium is.

good day

[DarthFelth]

no i didnt say they followed the codex, and i ant ever read anything that says they 1000 strong companies, if you have something that says this i would love to see it, i am a space wolve player, and as i said, the epic detachments are the only thing i have seen that indicates company size. the only codex i mentioned was the space wolf one thats in the shops ;)

I really doubt that 1000 strong companies cos i really doubt they would be aloud to be that powerful

[Maximus Decimus]

ok ok thats reasonable ill try and dig up some 2nd edition fluff i think it was in or mybe a book. the black templars are 10 000 strong u know. As a space wolf player u should also know that the high lords fear to start a war against the space wolves(extracted from 13th company codex astartes and other small references). that would cause another civil war and big one cause 1st founders would see the high lords as corrupt and mybe think hey they may turn on me next. Logan Grimnar wields a deamon weapon but the inquisition has tolerated them because of fears of another civil war. the space wolves have never excepted the high lords and will happily defend the imperium but not yield to the high lords. alright ill try and dig stuff up.

anyone else whos a space wolf veteran is welcome to join me if they have some reference material. i also read in 2nd ed i think it was, that the fang is 2nd to only the imperial palace in defences. oh i have a good site that has some useful info on wolves and anyone else and mybe it has a article of the 1000 per great company. for now trust me its true but ill try and reference.


http://www.wendndom.karoo.net/background/backgrnd.htm

thats the site with alot of good fluff on alot of things. i rlly recommend u read "star child" its a interesting story.

edit: here is a bit i found on orginization



The Space Wolves Chapter is made up of a dozen Great Companies, all of whom owe allegiance to the Chapter's commander, the Great Wolf. Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than she companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self-sufficient. In most ways, each Great Company is a separate army in its own right, and it is very rare for members of one Great Company to be placed under she command of leaders from another. referenced from the site i gave above.

if u didnt know the battle cry of the wolves is "conquer or die!"

[DarthFelth]

i do tend to find that way to powerful for a chaptor in 3rd ed, i mean 1000 strong just dont seem right, and i am a space wolves vet, some on i used them when they came out for space marine :p

[Captain Stern]

Of course, the only true Space Marines are the Dark Angels.:nyah:

[Maximus Decimus]

lol the little green men in robes..no comment.

[Aradiel]

regarding all this talk about the numbers of the wolves or the templars...

in a WD or Index astartes(most likely) it states that the templars are divided into crusades that range in size from a few squads to the the strength of a full chapter, and in total there are around 5.000/6.000 templars (quote:"...a force that would be all but unstopable in the present day Imperium...")
the wolves are divided in 12 great companies about 120/150 strong, as unlike the Dark Angels for example that have separate scout and veteran companies, there are vets (wolf guard) and rookies(blood claws) in each great company, making them a bit larger than a codex one.
numbers like 10.000 marines can be found in only 2 places in the galaxy:
1) the Emperors palace (the custodian guard)
2) the eye of terror (the traitor legions)
ie. the iron warriors had 12 grand companies at the time of the heresy, each the strenght of a full chapter (actually the old legions were divided in formations called chapters, in turn divided in companies, but the name could change. grand companies for the Iron Warriors, chapters for most of the other legions)


----------------------------------xxx-------------------------

Grand master Aradiel:- I would like to take the chance to say that the greatest primarch was obviously Lion El´jonson.
Warsmith Solrac:- Blarg. Perturabo was the greatest.
Aradiel:- Lion El´jonson.
Solrac:- Perturabo.
Aradiel:- The Lion, and i will prove it, even if i have to mop the floor with you, trench rat!
Solrac:- Bring it on, monk boy!

(a big fight erupts and only ends when the tyranid arrive and kill everyone, to the dismay of the necrontyr, that were having a great time making bets)

:wtf:

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Aradiel
numbers like 10.000 marines can be found in only 2 places in the galaxy:
1) the Emperors palace (the custodian guard)
2) the eye of terror (the traitor legions)


I do not believe that the custodian guard are space marines, per se. A minor point, though.

[Fable]

Originally posted by Aradiel

numbers like 10.000 marines can be found in only 2 places in the galaxy:
1) the Emperors palace (the custodian guard)
2) the eye of terror (the traitor legions)


One of my friends was very sad when he did the math and found out that there were only 700 known chapters each at a 1000 marines and (if the Imperium is lucky) maybe 300 unkown chapters which leaves only 1,000,000 of the emperors finest. I have my doubts that they would keep 1/10th of the best warriors in the galaxy guarding the Emperor.

[Aradiel]

the custodian guard are marines (the emperors personal bodyguards, and are stronger than a "normal" marine) in the point that are subjected to the same genetic manipulation, but never were part of any of the original 20 legions
the palace covers a entire continent, there is a lot of space to patrol
the trone room has 2 warlord titans inside

and yep, there are only 1.000.000 marines (...one for each world of the imperium...)

[Maximus Decimus]

hey, if u guys are interested in stories about the emperor, what the plan is for "the final battle" against chaos, and stuff read the short story Star Child. where did u get this that his personal guard are marines? as far as i can remember they are humans trained to the highest ability and almost rival the marines.. something along those lines.

alright im still looking for some evidence concerning the exact number for each great company but there is something that concerns me, mentioned in The Siege of the Fang/Battle for Fenris. basically the fang was maned by a skeleton crew and each great company was else where. a part of a traitor force trying to carve their own empire set upon fenris and set siege with thousands of troops. for 3 yrs the fang stood against day in and day out of artillery shelling as the mighty void shields would not give. now at the 3rd yr hundreds of thousands of his forces were called to fenris but before they could make their final attack the entire space wolf fleet arrived, while there was a great naval battle going on a great company made planetfall and commenced the attack on the 100s of 1000s of enemy forces


The attack by Kyrl Grimblood's Great Company swept away tens of thousands of traitor Guardsmen in the first few days. They were flung from the mountain passes around the Fang and those few that survived to reach Asaheim were set upon by giant wolf packs and the savage Wulfen. Bucharis himself managed to avoid capture by escaping on a shuttle, meeting with Sehalla who dropped back out of warp just long enough to pick up his master. For those that remained on Fenris, death was a certainty. how could 100 marines cause this? note there was no gorilla fighting done by this great company as when they made planetfall it was a full assualt.

EDITED: also read The Illuminati , its great

[starrider]

the space wolves i belvie dont have a hundred man companies. or mabye that was just the great companies that had more, ium not sure any more.

and i belive the emporers personal body guard is the adapetus custodus, who are teh only people allowed to go in his room thingy.

[Maximus Decimus]

the space wolves i belvie dont have a hundred man companies. or mabye that was just the great companies that had more, ium not sure any more.

what? the space wolves have 12 great companies that operate as seperate armies rather then the regular companies that are specialized and carry 100. the regular companies are all specialized and lend units to a force so a marine force consists of heavys from a heavy company, scouts from the scout company etc while each great company is a force on its own. space wolves and black templar have bigger companies but im not entirely sure on what the number is. i know it has to be alot more then 100 men

[Tribunal]

You know what's funny -- I've never had a single marine painted in the good old Ultramar blue. Blood Angels and Dark Angels were the main types that I painted and set up (due mainly to the Space Hulk game, and all the stories of the Terminators of the respective chapters) so if the game does mainly feature Ultramarines in the (potential) human campaign, it will be a bit refreshing :lol:

[The Collector]

Originally posted by IWAssassin
Dark Angels are allowed because their violations of the Astartes are known to NOBODY outside the Chapter, and were someone to find out, they'd do whatever it took to execute them.

Blood Angels are tolerated mainly because they try their damnedest to follow the Holy Writ of the Astartes, and the High Lords do feel sorry for them.

Its the Black Templars complete disregard for the Codex Astartes I cant understand. Their quest for chapter glory above defense of the emperor makes them EXTREMELY dangerous to the Imperium. You cant trust them to hold the line because they might decide theres more glory in charging instead.

The Blood Angels at least, if they fail to hold the line, you can be damned sure they'll make a mess of the enemy, often giving the Imperium an advantageous position over where they would be had the Angels of Death followed orders.

Considering how the Blood Angels Primarch died, I'm sure someone cut them some slack. The fluff makes it quite clear the guy died a martyr.

In any case, looking back at my prior post and the responses I've got, I probably used the wrong words: I was aiming at the point that Ultramarines seem professional: war is a object of objective, sterile, study and analysis.

Somewhere in the fluff it mentions Robute can replenish losses and recruit faster then other chapters.

In any case, the Ultramarines have the best support operation out of the other chapters: they have a excellent recruiting base of Ultramar and its various planets. I believe the worlds of Ultramar did not pay the Imperial Tithe but I'm sort of unsure.

Going back to the old post, I didn't think that the post was construed in a way openly disparaging of the other chapters. It may so happen that everyone has particularly strong feelings with regards to any particular chapter. Apologies for toes that may have been stepped on.

The main topic of the post has been reasonably answered: after the Heresy their legion seemed the biggest as one entity. They have the most gene-seed in storage and they aren't...eclectic.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, alright i guess that came out kinda wrong but thats fine, its nice to see pll admit something and apologize thats cool.

yeah ultras have a very rich system with a big population base and do have fastest recruiting.

as quoted from the index astartes the ultramarines were the largest chapter after the heresy, not before as each was the same but after the heresy. just liked to pt that out to fix any confusion.

alright tty guys later
good gaming.

[Shim]

Um no, in the Index Astartes it says the Ultramarines were the largest before and after. Now can we please drop that subject.

[Maximus Decimus]

oh yeah i c thats in a totally seperate section, srry about that but yeah thats GW fluff for ya they state each legion consists of 10 000 then they states one bigger then the other lol and they also changed the emperors death 3 times but i guess that was cause the original was kinda gory for kids.

ultras size etc. subject dropped, i suggest this thread get locked cause its alrdy been answered way back.

[The Collector]

Index Astartes-Ultramarines, pg.21 says...blah...
We can probably cite the reference for the record now.
"...before long, the Ultramarines were the largest Legion in existence."

[DarthFelth]

*shakes head*

EDIT: oh and dude, i really doubt that a normal man trained to highest standard is a match for a marine, Marine designed for combat, normal man isnt, marine spits acid, normal dosnt ;)

Marines are trained to the highest standard as well, have better armour, do you want me to go on, Guard are wank on the trooper level, they have physical limits alot lower than a marine, how did i come up with this idea, well as i said marine is BUILT for fighting ;)

[Azz35]

there was an amusing theory that the rivalry between space wolves and dark angels wasn`t sparked off by the russ and johnson fight, it was because the chapters were gay.
think about, dark angels-wear skirts over their power armour and regarding the space wolves, what straight man do you know that wears fur 7 days a week?

[Captain Temius]

Well, becouse Ultramarine best of all space marines. They absolutely loyal to the empire and has no gene seed corruption at all. Ultima segmentum is near 2/3rd of all enpire.And they are some kind of "sm trade mark" If you says Space Marine, first of all you 'll think about Ultramarines, not about Salamaners or Space Wolfes. In any case, as old Ultramarine (since 1999) i 'm glad that there be game about my favorite chapter.

[Azz35]

i don`t know wether you have read about the adventures of uriel ventris (captain of 4th co.) in nightbringer and warriors of ultramar, but it changes your opinion on the smurfs completely, they are not as codex as you may think. i had a passionate dislike for them b4, but now i respect them due to those books. i suggest reading them if your a fan.

[Maximus Decimus]

regarding the adeptus custodes they r not space marines but something entirely different. i dont remember exactly what they were but im pretty sure they werent and arnt space marines.

[Azz35]

not sure about that, but they are deeper than people think.
ultramarines are on the majority if not all the space marine boxes, they are the chapter what people relate to.

[Maximus Decimus]

they are the chapter what people relate to.

how do ppl relate to the ultras more then other chapters? if u mean they r the chapter everyone recognizes then yes.

i have a theory for why the ultras are on all the vanilla marine boxes, they r the easiest and fastest to paint because they r blue with a little yellow and have no additional detail that takes time to paint like the wolves, bloods, and dark angles. that is probebly why this is so because i dont see any other business wise beneficial reason to paint them over someone else, note if it easier to paint another chapter then they would have gone that way.

[Azz35]

black templars are much easier to paint.

[Maximus Decimus]

how do u see this? clarify. especially when u have to take the time to paint the shoulders white and then put writtings on them and also have to paint chainswords and bolt pistols. its alot easier to use ultras and black templar arnt even vanilla so what u just pted out is completely off target. u cannot have black temps theme on tactical squads and they wanna keep a constant theme through out the diff vanilla boxes.

[DarthFelth]

i thought i was because they got bored of paintin Crimson Fists and wanted something new to paint, but they really like blue, and then cos no one had real mind, like the small children who playd in 2nd ed, so they just copied the boxes, then when they grew up they realised they had been brain washed by gamesworkshop ;)

ahh the old manager of Colchester store was great, Jim, part for collecting Ultra smuffs, and getting sacked for holding a kid down and cut some of his hair off (or so i heard.....)

[Captain Temius]

To Maximus Decimus
Sorry , but you wrong about our simple colour scheme.
There is different ways you can paint. you may just use blue spray and yellow paint, or you may make masterwork model with lots of higlights and addition pieces. Havent you see Ultramarines by Bobby Wong???Go here
http://members.tripod.com/miniature-art/
and check out "simple" Ultramarines

[Shim]

Damn those are some nice Ultramarines, I love his Maximus model. I thought only the Black Templars had an Emporer's Champion though?

[DarthFelth]

every chaptor has one, you should really read white Dwarf, i have a space wolves one

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah those are some rlly impressive models and i wasnt saying that u cant paint em a diff way. the eavy metal team needs to usually get new armies done fast and they wont spend that much time to rlly make them look rlly great. they need to make them look exceptionally well but need to do so in a time effiecent manner, i just think that the a eavy metal ultra will have less minor details then a eavy metal templar. they do a great job painting them but i think they chose the ultras either because it was time effiecent or and probebly so, because the ultras wrote the codex astartes and are the fathers of vanilla marines.

[Van]

Originally posted by Maximus Decimus


i have a theory for why the ultras are on all the vanilla marine boxes, they r the easiest and fastest to paint because they r blue with a little yellow and have no additional detail that takes time to paint like the wolves, bloods, and dark angles..


lol, oh come on now Max.

How is splashing around some blue paint with whatever trim color much easier than splashing around some grey on a SW, dark green w/bone color on a DA or red on a BA?

You are aware that the Ultras have the same imperial eagles and various honors on their armor as all the other chapters, right?

Painting one chapter is the same as painting them all. Unless they are one of the really weird schemes.



Those are some outstanding figures. The Maximus model is a custom creation though, i am fairly certain. A expert with a paint brush for sure.

[Maximus Decimus]

well simple, wolves have pelts, talismans, alot of other accessories, etc for example take a look at the blood claw box and the tactical squad now tell me they didnt have to paint more for the SW and u know time costs money. the thing is its obvious that the tactical squads wouldnt be dark angels, bloods, or wolves because those are the main chapters that arnt vanillas. i was talking more about templar, other vanilla chapters. like with the ultra shoulder pads the eavy metal team uses the transfers i believe but with the templar pics that u see done they have writings and small pictures on their plates.

u should know that there is a clear difference from painting a wolf and a ultra and that they do not share the similarities that say imp fists and ultras do simply because of the additional accessories that u get for those squads. drop the theory of time effiecency painting cause there will always be ppl disagreeing so it doesnt matter but another theory that i stated above is mybe because the ultras are THE 1st founding codex chapter and by that right should be on the boxes of the vanilla sets, besides alot of ppl consider the upside down Omega rlly cool.

[Van]

The average SW doesnt have a plethora of pelts, fangs and talismans. He may have a single tail or honors and such on occasion but generally not. The SW special characters, Capts, Psykers etc certainly do sure.

A average Ultra doesnt have massive amounts of honors and such either. Some have them and/or terminator honors and such.

Then again the take a look at librarian Tigurius. Lots of detail to paint there.

As a whole, the rank and file Ultra, SW, DA, etc are all about the same difficulty of painting.


That gets me to wondering...i wonder if relic would consider hosting some pics of the minis of those of use lurking/trolling the W40k: DoW forums. Just to show off, brag etc...

[Maximus Decimus]

sort of true but u should take a look at the boxed sets for those and see that they DO have pelts yes ur average SW and talismans and stuff. the dark angels are similar and bloods are similar. the SW also contain power weapons in their squads 3 or 4 and stuff like that. anyway drop the subject cause ill scan u the sprues that come with the box and send u some pics of blood claw squads and then ull see.

im not gonna discuss this cause u will see a denounced the theory in place of another in the post above urs.

[Shim]

I agree Space Wolves have more bits and pieces on them and therefore are probably more time consuming to paint....Most other chapters are about the same...

[DarthFelth]

actualy space wolf stuff is more to do with age rather than wether hes a character, like for example Long fangs get that name because...

They have long fangs cos they are old men ;)

Blood angels have blood drops instead of imperial stuff, well they used to anyways ;) same as with dark angels really, well when they were metal anyways, i do perfer alot of the old metal models over the plastic, part for the assault marines and the heavy weapons.

[DarthFelth]

ps space wolves look cool, like the termie sergeant, come on, they should be in the next book set, would be nice if they puta character in there, a nice plastic one ;)

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah theyr awesume especially the wolf guard leader in terminator armor. yes the reason long fangs are usually experienced veterans(not old men) is cause it takes a looong time to reach that level. u like the 1st/2nd edition models over these? seriouslly? personally i hated those and am glad we have a nice range now. i also didnt like the design of the heavy weapons on the devs before either that much.

[Van]

Well, i still disagree Max. A simple tail dangling off a thigh or pelt on a midriff doesnt constitute a difficult paint job. It is no different than painting a honors banner on a regular chapter.

I have seen more than enough SW boxes and figs to know that the average SW has very few if any tails, pelts, etc. Note i didnt say none. Yes lots do and lots dont. I can provide to near endless pictures to back it up as well. About as many as say an Ultra with a wreath or skull honor versus one with none.

Painting a tail or pelt on a SW is no more difficult or time consuming than painting a skull or wreath type honor on a regular marine. The guns and hand to hand weapons found on the figs are irrelevant because they are interchangable.

You dont want to debate it fine. I wont just allow you to slag on Ultras and let is pass unanswered. Jesting is fine but the rest i will call you on.

[DarthFelth]

actuly i said alot, not all :p and i didnt mean 1st, just 2nd editon, mainly the 2nd ed space wolves, like the sergeant with the mastercrafted bolter, the wolf termies, i mean like i dont really like that many of teh ormal commander models, i like the old verteran sergeants like the one with the bionic arm and chain sword, i dont like the new space wolve plastic heads. I like the 2nd ed plastic khorne berzekers, when they redid them :p.

I do full well know what a space wolf is, what a long fang is, the age, i ahve been a space wolf player long enough, how ever i was taking the mik/piss, you really need to figure out what one is my friend, and i dunno chill out :p

[Van]

Originally posted by DarthFelth
actuly i i mean like i dont really like that many of teh ormal commander models, i like the old verteran sergeants like the one with the bionic arm and chain sword


That is a great fig. I have it as well. There are some really good older figs. One of my favs i got right when i started W40K is a librarian in older power armor holding a 2-handed force sword.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah some of them are good but i just dont like the majority of them.


Well, i still disagree Max. A simple tail dangling off a thigh or pelt on a midriff doesnt constitute a difficult paint job. It is no different than painting a honors banner on a regular chapter.

i never said its a more difficult paint job i just said that its more time consuming which it is, the SW boxed sets contain everything the tactical squad contain in details but add the wolf pelts, talismans, sergent backpack that needs to be inked and then painted over the regular backpacks. blood claw boxed set: there r 5 models that have blood claw special torsos, 1 contains a wolf tooth necklace, another a special belt, the sergent torso and special back torso with pelt, the far left with the tooth necklace handing off belt, guy left to the sergent because that talisman comes added on the belt and is not a add on, and u can also consider the dude with the special shoulder pad. note i am just pting out that these minor details DO take up time to paint and ink if u need. if u paint a tactical squad in SW colors it will take the same time as a tactical squad in ultra color but if u compare a ultra squad to a wolf squad u will see a wolf squad takes more time to pain using the exact same methods ud use with the ultra because of those extra details that infact arnt add ons. ive alrdy dropped the method ok so i see a pt where u want to argue that it takes the exact same time to paint a tactical squad and a wolf squad using the same methods but i dont believe that its plain and simple but the tactical in wolf colors is same as tactical in ultra colors(same time consumtion same everything).

[DarthFelth]

personaly i perfer the old bloodclaw sergeant with the powerfist, he looks alot better than any of the plastic models, or whats wrong with the old emperors champion, alot of the 2nd models are still in use :p

[Azz35]

people will never be pleased, someone will complain regardless, its best to please the majority and thats what the GW staff are there to find out.

[DarthFelth]

lol, well you never meet Jim the old manager of the Colchester store ;)

[Dorn's Helper]

ok first.. them green guys in fire warrior were the doom eagles or something to that effect.
second. the black templars are not a bunch of glory seeking heritics. they are penant seeking fanatics originaly led by the original emperors champion. on an endless crusade to atone for the loss of either the emporer or rogal dorn (off the top of head)
3rd the index was made up by all manner of doctrine from all of the first founding legions. yes even the traitors..
but we're getting away from the oginal intent of the thread. why the ultra's not whos better. when we know the grey nights have the purest gene seed in the galaxy. its an rts and its marines.. a little code tweek shouldnt be to much trouble to have most of the chapters in there.

[DarthFelth]

well i think that would be better left to modders or expansion packs myself, then you wont have to wait as long for the main game

[Aradiel]

about the custodes


"The space marines are not the only super-warriors created by the Emperor. The first group of genetically and psychologically modified troops he created were his own personal bodyguard - the custodian guard. Their duty simply to ensure the safety of the Emperor at all times.
Stronger than a space marine, the custodian is a fearsome warrior and has an unbreakable devotion to the Emperor. They are his most loyal and trusted servants"

quoted from UK WD287 pag.49

tecnically they may not be space marines, but normal humans that are allowed to enter the big guy chambers, no no no.
when i first said they were marines was in relation to the fact that they were "modified". i used the term loosely
by the way, i wonder if GW is going to do a index astartes article about the custodes? not likely

[Maximus Decimus]

that would be a great index astartes in white dwarf. id very much like to see that happen.

:matrix:

[DarthFelth]

no Primachs are the best super warriors created by the emperor which were the leaders of the space marines ;)

[Carach]

ah..but the primachs r all gone now ;)

so they WERE the best warriors

[DarthFelth]

ahh but they ant..

[Maximus Decimus]

yeees they r not... well some have died, some r chasing dark eldar, some are frozen, some are off on a hunt/mission, and some r even taking a nap with the little cloaked dudes.

hehe at the end when chaos threatens to consume the galaxy well most of it(Imperium) those living shall return for the final battle. when is this gonna happen? well never... or when GW knows theyr going bankrupt(NO!!!) and finishes it off.

[Imperial Fist]

"The Legion Custodes are the archetypal Space Marines, with their Gene Seed taken from the Emperor himself."

- taken from http://sabertoothgames.com/horus/

The homepage of the new CCG based off the Horus Heresy. Im pretty sure this is the latest fluff. So thats what I go on.

As for the Ultramarines, I agree with an earlier post, before reading Warriors of Ultrimar and Nightbringer, I did not think much of them, after though, I had to reconsider my opinion.

As for the Black Templars being heretical glory seekers, thats just wrong. They are on the longest crusade ever conducted by an Imperial Space Marine Chapter. Heretical... no, def. not. Fanatical is a much more accurate word. For they did derive from the most fanatical and radical of the Imperial Fists Legion.

But back to the main topic. I would be saddened if the only playable chapter was NOT the Imperial Fists ;) because, they are the BEST Space Marine Legion/Chapter EVER! (ok, had to throw that in there, obviously a matter of opinion hehehe, dont flame me). But if I had to choose a chapter other than the fists or a chapter of the fists, I would choose the Ultramarines.

[SoheilsX]

FLAME! FLAME! FLAME! You have chosen gay chapters.
DARK ANGELS RULLLLEEEE ALLLLLL.
PWNAGE!

[Carach]

i sense someone likes the Dark Angels...someone has a little heracy inside them :D

[Aradiel]

praise the Lion, the first legion rules :bow2:

[Iron CROW]

I totally agree with ya
there are so many much less boring Chapters than the ultramarines.............like the dark angels, or the black templars, or space wolves. hell why not just include some sort of chapter builder that allows you to creat one of your one


or failling that just make the Grey Knights playable:3d:

[Thrallzec]

Ultra marines rool!:3d:

[Tribunal]

I'm sure there are some cool UM stories out there... The only 'fluff' that I read was about the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, and a bit of the Space Wolves (not much though, not much at all). If it's a new story, then regardless of which chapter/race it's going to be done well -- Relic is great at the storytelling, HW I and II really shows that.

[DarthFelth]

ultra smuffs suck, i like the idea of a chaptor builder, but i dount we will see one unless that is a mod

[nicholas9898989]

javascript:smilie(':monkey:') They use the raptors chapter in Fire Warrior, not the gimpish Salamanders!

[DarthFelth]

Who cares, it wasnt that great a game anyways ;)

[elfatto]

Hi everybody, my first post here! :)

Anyways, I thnk that having Ultramarines in the game is reasonable. They're probably the most well known codex chapter with the most background material. As someone said earlier, they are the ideal loyalist space marines.

Also, having a vanilla chapter like the Ultras in the game would allow for some other chapters to be created relatively easily with mods. In the tabletop game chapters like the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, and Dark Angels (not including pure deathwing or ravenwing) are pretty much codex with a few different wargear and squad weapon options and slight changes in the rules (eg. siege specialist for IF and stubborn for DA).

Blood Angels could be made by borrowing some rules from Chaos if they're in the game as well. (Furious charge, feel no pain for death company.)

So in conclusion having the Ultrasmurfs in the game = good.

I also collect Ultras :rolleyes:.

[DarthFelth]

well, that your problem that you collect Ultrasmuffs :p i collect Flesh Tearers, i nice orignal chaptor that next to no one has :D Blood angels ant just marines with a few extra rules, it just isnt the same thing, blood angels and Flesh tearers arnt as boring to paint as Ultrasmuffs for starts (well flesh tearers ant anyways)

[No Surrender]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't the FT colour scheme just red and black?

[DarthFelth]

more interesting than blue :p

[elfatto]

When you really think about it most marine colour schemes are pretty boring to paint. Except for the half/half schemes (you know what I'm talking about, that chapter with red/yellow, whatever they're called).

Anyways, I think that Flesh Tearers would be cool, but I don't really know how the black rage would be modeled in a RTS. I think that it'd turn into something of a micromanagement nightmare, constantly having to stop your guys from spontaneously raging straight into the line of fire of the enemy's big guns.

[Megas Menandros]

check sig!

:sam:

[dArKB*****d]

All I've got to add to this thread is if it weren't the ultra bores some other chapter would have to take up the banner of ultra plain marines. :P I personally have no real gripe with them. They don't look half bad... (covering his back)

[Death Company]

hi every1. a few points.
ultramarines are the best known chapter. the first marines i saw were these guys, and so all the newbies will know them, people who dont play the game will perhaps know them. if this makes them want to start collecting thenthey dont have 2 worry bout all the complex rules (like the blood angels death company, black rage etc). plus the fact that every chapter has specific things it is good at except the ultras which are a chapter which literally does everything (if they include a lascannon or heavy bolter, or mayb even a plasma cannon, can you really imagine a space wolf or blood angel wielding one). also they have a good novel (nightbringer) even if its not as good as spacewolf, it helps.
tho it would be more fun 2 be a grey knight... ah the possibilities.

[Maximus Decimus]

bloods and wolves field all those weapons except unreliable with bloods. wolves field them fine. the dark angels are more plasma heavy then any other chapter. oh and by the way ur a little late cause guess what? for the single player a new chapter with GW official fluff made is the one you are gonna play as and that is none other then the blood ravens. the ultras are just a multiplayer skin.

im glad to say phew! no more ultras.

[DarthFelth]

glad to here it to :D so i guess they are gona be the chaptor that appear on the next box of 40k

[Maximus Decimus]

that would be cool. hmm "blood ravens" dont sound like ur usual codex chapter to me hmm interesting, mybe the inquisitor hammer was taken after he kicked the crap out of one for investigateing his chapter? lol and now are trying to redeem themselves or get the h*ll out of there.

another theory is that the inquisitor turned radical/heretic and now searches for powers of chaos leaving the blood ravens to hunt him down.

scene goes something like this
Discription = on a planet after some sort of battle with few survivors during a extreme storm in the night with blazes of lightning. The inquisitor stands triumphed ontop of a small rock formation with commander Gabriel behind him in the distance.

Inquisitor: "come now Angelos! join me! join the lurering force of chaos....the darkside!"
Gabriel Angelos: "what! no! never! the emperor is the light!"
Inquisitor: "as u wish.."
GB: "im afraid this has to end here..... "
(small prayer to the emperor while preparing his power sword"
=I=: "but u must know!"
=I=: "i am ur father!!"
(teleports to his flagship and gets away leaving only a small traces of electrical energy where he once stood on the planet)
GA: "NOOOOOOO!"

.....to be continued

[DarthFelth]

yeah, whatever, stop making it up :p

[dArKB*****d]

I can remember going to a golden demon back in the day, must have been around 10 years ago now, if any of you remember it was when they first displayed a wh40 thunderhawk gunship or 2 to be exact, they accompanied the ultramarines chapter. Wh40 that is. The table was I think over 20ft long. All marines and dred's regimented and painted to perfection it was a sight to behold.. Even if I don't like the ultra's

[DarthFelth]

yeah i remeber that, pitty they used so many of the marines from the 2nd ed box game, cos i hated them ones so much, atleast now the marines look, well different :D

[Space Cow]

Well, this disscussion is pretty pointless, seeing as UltraMarines is not going to be the main Chapter. Its the Blood Ravens who will be making the most presence in Dawn of War. ( A new Chapter )

[DarthFelth]

most of the disscissions on the forum are pointless, so was your statement, if you dont like it, deal with it ;) have a nice day

[Soulblighter]

Space Cow: dont like it dont post

DarthFelth: most of the threads in the DoW forum are not pointless, however since you think they are and you post a lot i can only assume that most of your posts are pointless therefore from now on unless you have something of value to add to a discussion i dont want to see you posting.

locked.