Weapons of mass destruction

[Anthonace]

does anybody want these ingame and if you do what form should they take?

[DarthFelth]

not really

[Maximus Decimus]

hell no! have u seen what these did to the command and conquer series? where multiplayer was "who can get the nukes first!! and blow up the enemy base using NO STRATEGY WHATSEVER" i pretty much hate the C&C games for this and their one unit kicks all method where it takes forever to kill this unit using any kind of weapons. anyway i seriouslly hope not or theyve ruined the game for me and anyone else who likes ground control cause thats strategic and having super weapons in game is not strategic, "hmm i think i will click this bottom ontop of ur base and see everything go high sky!" and "oh! oh! i got my nuke before u time to die!".

[Shim]

They'd probably ruin multiplayer, but they might be cool in singleplayer

[Rampart]

One of the many features I liked in Total Annihilation was the nukes. yeah, you could build them, and yeah, they did alot of damage, but anyone who knew how to play would spend his money on 3-4 counter nuke batteries and then hit you with an army or 3. heck, they even had mobile anti-nuke batteries as one of the later released units.

So, I would like to see such things in single player (representing orbital fire support, long range arty support, etc.), and have something counterable ala TA in multiplayer. as there may not even be buildable buildings in this game, we'll have to wait to until we get more news about the game

[thesamonthemoon]

WMD's in Warhammer? The largest battlefield that I've ever played WH40K on could easily be decimated by conventinal weapons.

Any use of WMD's on 40K scales would be extremely redundant.

[Maximus Decimus]

man i still think thats dumb because as i stated and saw in C&C all it is, is a arms race. in game artillery bombardments to soften trench areas would be awesume(i hope u can build trenches and stuff thatd be awesume) but no nukes i have to say im extremely against arms races in multiplayer.

[Russian Ninja]

Have them for flashy cinema effects and no more. Or have them so that they're hard to effectively use, can be turned off when you don't want them and cannot win a game by themselves.

They could take the form of Orbital Bombardments, Atomics, Artillery Barrages, Drop Pod Assaults, Fighter or Bomber Assaults, Lance Strikes, Teleporting Reinforcements, Deathstrike Missiles and plenty of other choices. Of course they might not be Super Weapons as such, but they could be instead like special abilities of various units. For example, maybe an Imperial Assassin could sneak into an opponents' base and plant a targeting device in it to call in a Lance Strike or maybe Drop Pods. However doing so will alert the opponent to the presence of the assassin or the Targeting Device and if, like Starcraft, they can kill the Assassin or the Targeting Device before the Lance Strike hits home, they can live another day. If not...

[DarthFelth]

just no, they did ruin C&C, they would ruin this, the biggest gun should be like a Battle Cannon, which in game terms is a might weapon, why would you need much more than that to be fair, however i hope they include things like ThunderHawks

[IWAssassin]

Generally speaking WMD are a good thing to avoid. They CAN be done right [TA was an example, a game with 2 types of nuke silos, as well as artillery cannons that definately would be considered WMD] but its exceptionally difficult. The way TA did nukes was to make anti-nukes cheaper. The way to deal with nuclear mines was to use aircraft to clear them out. The way to deal with nuclear walkers was to attack them with anything as they had low armor and were really slow. Then there were the ultra heavy artillery - simplest solution, place your base behind a large hill. That works great. However TA is lauded as the game with the best unit balance EVER [and did this with more units than any other game too]

Generally speaking its impossibly difficult to balance WMDs. 40k Doesnt use them because simply put a REAL Lance Strike would take out an 8x8 table with a S14 AP1 Titan killer Ignores Invulnerables hit. Vortex Missiles et al would be even worse. Its sufficient to say you're probably fighting for this area because for some reason its important, and as such vaporising the battlefield would be a bad idea. Eliminates WMD in the game while not saying that they dont exist.

[Rampart]

Like I said, alot of it depends on the game mechanics. if Relic sticks to the tabletop game you won't have a forward air controller unit as a buyable or buildable unit, you just purchase a flyer (fighta-bomba, lightning, barracuda, etc.), or heavy support on-board arty units.
Having a capturable objective such as a comm installation or whatever which allows you to call orbital bombardment/airstrikes/long range arty would work in single or multiplayer, there is certainly a precedent in the tabletop game for such things. it would certainly stop people from turtling in one corner of the map.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah that works but i doubt this is a exact replica of the tabletop because

1) doesnt appeal to mass audience, theyll just go buy ground control 2 instead

2) they alrdy have something like that called warhammer 40k and what if ppl started making tournaments online and stopped paying pricey tickets to attend tournaments? trust me theres ppl like that out there especially all the little kids theyll forget it entirely and move to the game.

[DarthFelth]

well i still dont think you need super uber weapons as they tend to remove some of the tactics in playing the game

[Tribunal]

The only weapons of mass destruction should be the occasional titan walking OVER you as you are in some trenches waiting to take some shots at a reinforced enemy bunker :lol:

I think that this game will focus on smaller groups of units, and if there would ever be say, orbital weapon bombardments, it would be part of the script for the mission, and require you to haul your unit's collective butts out of the blast radius.

[z-beam]

orbital virus bobardment would be cool to see if facing of against orks.

maxi, nukes never did that much in c+c. especialy in red alert two. infantry and small defences were obliterated but thats to be expected. by giving each race a special "ultimate" ability it would add to there identity. sm's virus bomb ony affecting open topped vehicles and unprotected infantry. eldar could have a webway portal. orks could be given advances is breeding faster. tyranids: a spore mine wave, randomly deployong spore mines all over the battle feild. chaos: a greater demon.

these ideas arent there to be balanced. they are inblalancers, you may be losing but your precious super weapon could change the outcome of the battle.... depending on how you use it.

[aeturnum]

I doubt that nukes, or any other WMD, will be in the game out of the box. I think the fluff refers to them as dark age of technology relics, so the imperium wouldn't touch them and the rest of the races have alternate means of massive destruction.
I think it might be an interesting mod, but not really as a core gameplay element.

[Maximus Decimus]

well u need to play red alert 2 and see what the hell happened there cause that totally ruined the game and ever since those weapons i have been forced to hate ever game that features that without having the ability to turn em off. they remove tactics and kill bases entirely almost

[Tribunal]

Yeah, it just turned into a 'whoever builds the nuke first wins' type of game. I really, REALLY don't want anyting as unbalancing like that (unless, as I said, it is part of a scenerio and not multiplayer). Also, I'm hoping that there is no base building either, I would rather make a map with destructible walls and fortifications that build a CnC or War/Starcraft style base.

[SoheilsX]

In the settings of warhammer 40k there really is no WMD simply because every type of artillery basically destroys everything. Hell in the game the lance orbital attack is something that NOTHING CAN DEFEND AGAINST not to mention that its most of the time a one hit ko. The only true WMD is when an inquisitor declares exterminus on a planet. Then they bombard the planet with enough cyclonic missiles to leave nothing of the planet.
Cyclonic missile = makes nuke look like pop rocks.

[DarthFelth]

or virus bombs

[Tribunal]

:rofl:
Great image there!
The closest to a wmd in a gam that I have played was when I had my daemon attacking my enemy's leader, who also happened to be a psyker. I had a mission card that gave me boku points for taking out his psyker, so I said screw it, and opened up a chaos portal around them and they both disappeared into warp space, gone from the board and the game. My enemy gained two points from my loss, while I ganed seven, I believe. It's been a bit though. It was a pretty decent sized template, but I can't imagine how large a template you would need for an orbital bombardment weapon!

[DarthFelth]

man, the gate, the card of death, MUHAHAHAAAH man i remeber my mate haveing marine calgar with a conversion field and me have rangnar with a displacer field, im so glad that stuff died, but i loved conversion fields when playin orcs, it was great when you got hit by a powerfist, hehe

[Tribunal]

Hmmm? No more conversion or dispalcement fields? You mean you can actually kill heroes now without resorting to tricks like that?!?! (maybe 3rd edition isn't so bad afterall ;) )

[DarthFelth]

yes you can, just not mine cos mine are blessed by Khorne ;)

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah especially if u field a inquisitor with a good retinue that boost his abilities, basically he can kill a great deamon/deamon prince like nothing same with a grey knight grand master.

[DarthFelth]

not if they are Khorne ;) then they have a little problems ;)

[Maximus Decimus]

lol nope nope not at all, use that power where the deamon cannot enter that field and then kill him from within, theres numerous other anti deamon wargear stuff but i dont game deamon hunters so i cant provide alot of good examples.

[DarthFelth]

Khorne tend to be immune to alot of them, for example collar of khonre and khorne daemons have power armour as well as aura

[Newtype]

The deadliest unit in v3 WH40K is the Ulthwe Seer Council with Eldrad Farseer. Put them in a decent terrain feature such as a ditch to give them an added cover save, you cannot beat them. Well, you cannot beat them without losing 90% of your assault troops. Tis the most stubborn unit in 40k.

WMD? Nay. Hopefully, they keep DoW (Dawn of War) on a tactical sense. Because thats all the table top really is, is tactical. Choosing the right units, and then getting them to the right spots on the table.
Sure, there are War Engines and Flyers, but the bread and butter is the tactical squad. If it is a complete strategic game, as far as mixing Gothic, Epic, and 40k altogether for full campaigns, then I can see some drop pods, and Earthshaker artillery (one of the biggest guns but harder than heck to hit something with) being put into it. Definately add the fantastic side to it, such as Eldar Psykers and Chaos Daemons.

But No "WMDs". As far as I know, there really arent any in 40k as it is. There are no "clean off half of the table top" type weapons in 40k. Even in Epic, those do not exist.
As far as orbital support, such as orbital strikes, those are "player rules". As far as I know there are no rules to support this in 40k.
I wouldnt worry about it too much as long as they really make it a 40k game.

[ankara halla]

Ugh... don´t mention the Seer council to give potential new players ideas...
In the last "tournament" (...12 players, 3 games each, 15e (around 20$) gift certificate to the store hosting the tournament...) I got robbed of the victory by the thrice damned Ulthwe Strike Force. I massacred both of my other enemies (Black Templars and the Imperial Guard) while took a pounding from these pointy eared bastards (...well, I did deny them massacre for what it´s worth...) and thus dropping to a shared 4th position.
For the record, this guy and his eldar won the tournament taking two massacres and a solid victory (yeah... against me... grrr...).

And having said that, I find the USF to be one of the best armies to play against/with in the current set of rules. It´s true the Seer Council is mighty strong but it´s not the kill-them-all-and-rout-the-rest unit it´s made to be.
Infact, I enjoy playing against the eldar more than any other race as they are by far the most specialized(sp?) race to be found in the 40k universe and thus the most challenging and fun to play against/with.

And to keep on topic for a change... no WMD´s for DOW k-thnx-b :)

[Newtype]

Originally posted by ankara halla
It´s true the Seer Council is mighty strong but it´s not the kill-them-all-and-rout-the-rest unit it´s made to be.


True, but that is not what they are for. They are for.... ahem.. yeah.. no more pointers for the new players... =p

[DarthFelth]

i always thought they were for spliting up and adding to units of guardians :D who cares, their eldar :p

[Russian Ninja]

They are for acting as a massive bullet shield for any other Ulthwe unit, and for frying the brains of anything that considers approaching them. Only thing that can really stuff them up now is the Psycannons and Incinerators of the Grey Knights. But that's where cover comes in...

Anyway, I don't think there should be any WMD, like Atomics, Virus Bombs, Lance Strikes and Definately not Cyclonic Torpedoes. However, what would be acceptable is things like Aircraft Airstrikes, Artillery bombardments and other low scale strikes, provided that they're ballanced into the game (aka. Aircraft can be shot down, player must place a targeting beacon for an Artillery Strike, etc). Drop Pods and Teleporting troops as well, as they're often intergral to gameplay, but anything big scale should be saved for a special cinematic.

[DarthFelth]

the only stuff you would see, id really stuff that exsists in the table top game anyways, Cyclone Missile Launchers (well from 2nf rules anyways), Whirlwinds, Lemon Russ Battle cannons, Basilks, Defilers etc. but i hope teh cut scenes are alot better than in games like Jedi Knight - Outcast, would be cool if they used some of that stuff they kept showing at gamesday, Like the Space wolves scenes, dark angels fighting the chaos marines, unless your to young to remeber this stuff...

[Carach]

dnt have time to read thru whole lot..just gonna reply to the first few posts...

Super weapons were very annoying in c&c generals, cool, but annoying, especially in multi player when u have a server named: NO SW/RUSHES

Total annihilation was brilliant, the nukes were wicked, and there were ways of taking the missiles down. The mass amount of different units was great, a small amount of units but it seemed like there were so many...and all the different types...it was a bril game that i still play..on c&c red alert 2 however...u can disable nukes. So u could put SWs in the game, but u can disable them if u want.

i like the general promotions, allowing for emp bombs etc on generals too.
Maybe u would want to c what they r doing with Ground Control 2.

[SoheilsX]

In the tabletop game i believe Daemon Hunters were the only race that could call orbital bombardment. I believe it was played as a normal ordanance weapon, but you put down the template and did the roll for accuracy and so on, then you put down 8 to 10 more around it for where they would hit, Lance Strike was pretty much 1 hit KO for everything on the field, i believe it was a 10 template radius. You cannot reposition where it fires to but it does fire a new volley EACH TURN, so its devastating for games where you much beat your way past a full force of the enemy. Although it came at a great cost it is unstoppable, the only problem is that your own guys get killed too.

I personally LOVE the daemon hunters. Heres a little strategy to make your DH INVINSIBLE against all things daemonic. The leaders of teams of Grey Knights Terminators are considered powerful phsykers. There is a power called "Sanctuary" where no daemonic entity can hurt anyone inside it nor can they see through it, it is basically an indestructible defensive wall. But see heres the great part, while they cannot fire at you or even see you through it, you can position a large group of powerful long range units in the center of a circle of 6 groups of GK termies. Your tough long range units can fire through and devestate the enemy and all they can do is sit there and die. By the way, SACTUARY can be kept in play as long as the player wants. No daemonic entities can even MOVE through the circle which i believe extends either 3 or 6 inches in all directions of the unit casting. Not sure but i believe you can have the squad of termies fire while their leader casts sanctuary, not sure though. This has won me many games where i must secure a certain position and defend it. Stupid guy i played had an army of 99% daemons, he thought they were "cool" Ya, i took maybe 3, 5 at the most casualties while i devastated his entire army. Im not gonna reveal which units can bypass this but they are there. Just read in between the lines.

[Carach]

ur start there gave me a thought, would the game be using some kind of chance on hitting etc?

:S would be complicated if it did

[Maximus Decimus]

uh i also believe titans are in the WoMD catagory and should not be included ala C&C style gameplay which also proved what happens when they keep taking the S out or RTS lol westwood is gone hurray!

it would be fine to include titans in a game that is based on epic not 40k where baneblades and other superheavies are regular sites. titans shall not be included in this game which makes me happy.

[Tribunal]

How about this...

IF (and I stress IF) there are titans available in-game, then they should ONLY be there in a special game mode, so that people who want to use foot-soldiers tanks/etc won't have to worry about the many fans that DO want to see the titans.

(Then again, I would also like to see optional modes to have a turn-base game mode as well, so 'purists' could have that option as well, but if anything that would have to be a mod/tc for the game, if the game is even allowed to be modded to that extreme)

[SoheilsX]

titans are used for taking down other titans, super heavy vehicles, long range bombardment platforms, and super heavy fortresses. Not taking down infantry. Although they do some mean damage ;D. I think there should be a point where we see a titan fight another titan, but from the screens ive seen of this game so far, there is no way a titans left foot would ALONE fit in the screen.

[Carach]

lol, an epic game would be greeeat...

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah fine sure as long as i dont see a army and a titan marching to my base ala command and conquer where u get ur mamoth or whatever depending on game and need like 50 tanks to kill the one mamoth which kills tanks like nothing. true titans are not used for killing armies cause that would be like saying lets use a nuke to kill this small detachment of enemies... lol C&C again where u could also use the nukes to blow bases up without brakeing a sweat. if it was a epic game id agree. no WoMD like nukes etc.

[DarthFelth]

your daemon Hunter army sounds abit boring, but you know you walls against daemons, how well do they work against Khorne Berzker Termies with Furious Charge ;) or a termie lord wit that ;)

[dArKB*****d]

I've got to mention a novel called space marine.

A small squad of SM's, practically green recruits manage to capture an emperor titan just in time to save half there chapter from being wiped out by 3 titans, plus the emperor titan that would have been sent against them to boot.

You could include titans in single player campaigns but they shouldn’t be the focus of your army.

Plus titans are cumbersome slow moving beasts, a well trained group of marines should be able to avoid detection by the crew, enough to be able to plant some thermite charges to the servitor motors connected to the foot :bandit:

[Captain Zog]

Ok, a few points, the current orbital bombardment rules for 40k are thus, select a terrain feature in secret before the battle, each turn roll for reserves, once you succeed, you can start the orbital strike, or hold it for a few turns. Once you start it, place it so at least half is in the terrain and roll for scatter (the shot always scatters, to represent the slight inaccuracy of a battleship several miles up). Then place one ordnance template and see the effects, lance strikes are S10 AP1, nasty but not too unbalancing.


As to WMD, i also say no to anything above artillery and air strikes, simply because dark age of technology weapons are a last resort, only used in the most dire circumstances (for example, the age of aposty (sp) when the assasin temples entered a civil war that threatened to destroy the Imperium from within, ancient death weapons were used then.
Then there was the Tyrant of Badab who built a large cannon on his planet, for firing cyclonic warheads at planets, but that was destroyed.

Titans would be cool, just perhaps for a skirmish mission, 'you have a small force of marines who have got inside the chaos war machine, plant charges in its reactor room, so its machine spirit can be put to rest).

[Arnach]

As I see it, the game doesnt need more WMD then the armies themselfes... just imagine a battery of basilisk's fireing... Or a legion of genestealers ripping everything to shreds... Not much left after they are done.

[Carach]

lol tiberian sun max ;) send a mammoth (in TS it was a massive walker) ad a few titans(normal walkers) and u beat everything..

what i was so annoyed about in that game was thast a titan with its artillary kinda gun, could be brought down by a 2 normal infantry.

[Tribunal]

Yeah, that was really annoying. I always had to have wolverines accompany everything, and even then they were just shredded by just about everything else.

I know they were trying to balance units and everything, but it just wasn't FUN.

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, how about we just not include WoMD and let the ppl who want them make mods or play the C&C generals 40k mod.

[DemonTalons]

I agree

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by DarthFelth
your daemon Hunter army sounds abit boring, but you know you walls against daemons, how well do they work against Khorne Berzker Termies with Furious Charge ;) or a termie lord wit that ;)

Quicky Edit: Termie Lords and Khorne berzerkers - Considered truly daemonic, Their Furious charge goes to waste, they cant pass through or enter the "Sanctuary".
Noone goes Hand To Hand with the Daemon Hunters and survives, hell, theyve got units that could take on Abbadon. To me he is nothing on the battlefield, just send in a good old Inquisitor Lord and boom, hes down, if all else fails, use assasins that can easily take him down or some GK Termies, they have seals and extras on them made to turn Chaos Units Hand to hand attacks to next to nothing :). Beutiful, just Beutiful. They do a pretty number on the other races too, Hell look at their stats in the codexes, each GK might as well be a special character. Sum it up for you:
Grey Knight Space Marine = Normal Terminator
Grey Knight Terminator = Groups of Special Characters
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord and Retinue = HA! Good Luck there Buddy, you might as well call Dr. Kevorkian.

They work beutifully thank you :twisted:

Heh, Ive got a Dark Angels Army and a Daemon Hunters Army.

Heres some pics of the Dark Angels as well as the Grey knight Models, boring my ass :D

Daemon Hunters. Uber. Just. Uber.
http://ca.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/daemonhunters/gallery/default.htm

Dark Angels. Brutal. They goto Extremes to kill all things daemonic as well.
http://ca.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/spacemarines/astartes/darkangels/default.htm

http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.cn?do=List_Models&code=300883&orignav=10


Heh, he says boring. By the way, so far im just over 7000 points total army.

[Carach]

there is a 40k mod for generals?? gimme gimme gimme!

i loved the wolverines, i had them escort the titans all the time..and that radar tank thingy, they were so cool :P

cos titans could be mashed up by all the infantry units, and ai often used mostly infantry

[SoheilsX]

Are you talking about TA? Cuz if you are talking about WH40k you are out of your mind, how the hell are infantry, even with extremely heavy weapons, supposed to take down things that would wipe them out with its left foot alone.

[Magus]

Think hes talking about Tiberian Sun, Titans were huge anti-vehicle mechs, and Wolveines were light powered armor used for anti-personnel

[Carach]

yes i was talking about TS.

but the fact that u have big gun on that thing..things like that take down infantry and tanks a like..it was pathetic that a couple of soldiers could bring 1 down.

there is a WH40K mod for TA (well there was, but when i looked for it, it was gone :( )


i was talking about what max said earlier, wondering whether there was a WH40K mod for generals

[blood_angel]

http://www.planetcnc.com/onlywar/

FOund it via google. Dunno if its been mentioned before.

[Carach]

cool, ty

[DarthFelth]

hmm, why do people think weapons of fun will inprove the game

[Carach]

u wot?

mass destruction is what WH40k is a bout...a few nukes here and there would b great! but there MUST be things that can take them out if they r to be in the game.

In TA they had a lot of lvl settings etc..so nukes didnt come till relativley far thru a skirmish

[SoheilsX]

Wow, you know NOTHING about WH40k then if you think its all about nukes and things of that sort.
First of all, THERE ARE NO NUKES, they are from the "dark age" of technology and therefore not accepted or used. And why would they be? Theres much better out there.

[Tribunal]

Nukes late in the game?!?! Not that long if you go defensive and just build build build :bandit:

As far as WOMD, ummm, please no.

Yes, 40k has big battles, but it's all about the troops, not orbital bombardments and "a few nukes here and there." If I wanted to play that, I'd play CnC.

Yes, TA had nukes and handled it well enough, but that was TA, not 40k. If there was going to be nukery, then the orbiting vessels would have just bombarded the planet (err, cleansed it with fire et al), and left. Maybe an installation or two before deploying troops, but remember -- most of the races would want facilities to be intact so they could use them for their side... No point in destroying your potential facilities and possible 'recruiting' grounds with WOMD then, now would there?

[DR_RANSOM]

First of all, THERE ARE NO NUKES, they are from the "dark age" of technology and therefore not accepted or used. And why would they be? Theres much better out there.

They use orbital strikes and virus bombs take out a whole planet in a few days :devil:

[Maximus Decimus]

yes, but do they use them while there is a company of marines on the planet? no they do not preform exterminatus on a planet they wish to reclaim or conquer. WoMD are not warhammer 40k and anyone who knows anything of 40k fluff would know that such weapons are only used to preform exterminatus or brake the void shields of a base.

[Carach]

i ment mass killing etc, there r such things as what ransom says. WH40K is about mass killing etc. would be stupid not to put some kind of big weapon in

[Tribunal]

Read DR_RANSOM's and Maximus Decimus' posts again there... They use WOMDs to take out WHOLE planets... Not just for 'surgical strikes.' IF they were going to use them, they would use a strike or two first, then they would send in the marines. Nukes would go against all of the fluff, and be againt the the spirit of 40k, the way it was meant to be played (if it was going to be nuke wars, it may as well have been just called Tiberium Sun).

[Maximus Decimus]

very well said very well indeed, bravo. the thing is u know cityfight? obviously they want that piece of land right? or they would just send a nuke down and they only reserve them for exterminatus as iv said, its stupid to waste such resources on something considered a skirmish in the big picture. have u ever read "while the marines were battleing, 3 nukes came down upon them!" no i believe u have not. its unfluffy and there is something called power armored hulks in close combat to give u a massacre. u want a game with uber cheesy weapons? go back to almost any C&C game, wonder how u enjoy blowing up someones base with a nuke....all it proves is who can click the mouse faster and handle the menu screens faster.

[deggy]

I don't see what the big deal is about a nuke in the base? So what if they nuke your base! In just about every instance I've seen, Generals included, the nuke's lacked the power to actually destroy your base completely. Damage it, yes, but unless you are ignoring your base's condition, just start repairing it and everything will be fine. In most cases your infantry is devastated, but in most games, when the nukes come out, you've moved past infantry into higher order vehicles and tech. So again, big deal.

If a player is playing the nuke game, it means one of two things 1) they are spending resources on nukes instead of troops so you should be on the upper hand there, (and proper use of troops will always destroy a base more effectively than nukes will), or 2) they are using troops and nukes and just schooling you all around so you should shut up and try to learn something to improve your game. :)

Nukes and other long range, mass damage, fire and forget weapons are all psychological weapons. The panic they cause is often much more effective at disrupting the opponent's game than the damage they do. If you stay focused and respond well you will always overcome someone who relies on these sort of tactics... well almost always :)

[Maximus Decimus]

have u played red alert 2? or anything following? u should note that a nuke on base will pretty much kill all buildings in radius..well fine leave them to like 20hp, repair costs money and WoMD are generated by a building so u dont need to waste resources on building individual nukes like starcraft but u pay a not too high cost for building and kabam there u have a uber weapon that generates itself without funds after initial cost which isnt extremely high as it should be. it is literally a race to who can get those weapons first because they will destroy ur defences and almost destroy ur buildings which is togethered by a army coming at u and becomes very cheesy. did i mention that u get no warning of a nuke attack like u do in starcraft so it pops up out of nowhere and the army u r harbouring goes poof in the strike. play a few bouts of multiplayer with C&C and u will find to disprove urself. in theory sure ur correct but theory is not always true and in this case it is not.

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by DR_RANSOM


They use orbital strikes and virus bombs take out a whole planet in a few days :devil:

Indeed, but i was referring to our present day nuclear weapons.
Also, although virus bombs and orbital strikes are strong, they are not used mainly for the entire destruction of a planet.
Okay heres how it is:
Cyclonic missiles launched by an Inquisitor Lord upon declaration of Exterminus upon a planet. These are made to not only destroy the stuff on the surface of the planet, but to also break up the planet itself and wipe it out completely.

Virus bombs:
From what i understand these are the futuristic version of a Neutron bomb, used to kill out the population and leave the defenses on the planet in weak condition, ripe for a take over.

Orbital strikes:
Although they are very powerful, only an enormous amount of ships firing together to actually wipe out a planet. These are the real "surgical strike" weapons often used to take out heavy planetary defense platforms as well as key enemy installation.


One last thing about the Inquisition:
All MEN (imperial gaurd, so on) called to assist an Inquisitor lord MUST BE KILLED after they have done their duty, that is if they have seen or come into contact with chaos.
All Space Marines called to assist must have their minds wiped clean and be taken in for the rebuilding of various body parts. This means that even the most experienced leader can become a lowly "private" again. This is unless the space marines mind is powerful enough to withstand chaos (like most special characters).

[Noir]

Or if they're Gray Knights :)

[Anthonace]

i am very sure that even single space marines are to precious to even mind wipe (if they can do that) the inqusition deals with them if/when they are noticabley corrupt or insanne
Inquisitorial storm troopers have their lives spared
the rest don't

[Noir]

Originally posted by Anthonace
i am very sure that even single space marines are to precious to even mind wipe


Wanna bet?

[DemonTalons]

Thats old fluff. Nowadays fluff they get to live. ( Ever read the Gaunts Ghost novels theyre still alive and they fight chaos alot)

ANd no WMD's. The thing with them is that you cant stop them except to get more of them and faster than your opponent. For instance maybe your opponent has awasted all his money and time to get a nuke but in CnC that one nuke can take out your whole army and forces you to repair whatever buildings were damaged.

In the meantime he is probably building another nuke plus some other units so that when his next nuke comes he will wipe out your own units and then just sends in his own units to mop up whatever is left.

[DarthFelth]

and what about generals, you didnt havr to pay after they were built, you could just sit and wait with your fortified base and build more and hit with like 4 at a time ;)

[Maximus Decimus]

exactly, u dont pay for individual nukes/strikes like in starcraft but sit there and let it regenerate. plain and simple if U HAVE EVER played the games and a descent iq then ud know they r gay.

someone mentions they r used to take out key fortifications? in most cases wrong, key fortifications have something called viod shields and only after months and months of bombing can they be taken down(some void shields will go on forever ala The Fang). the marines are brought in to take key buildings that have void shields. nukes and any other WoMD are unfluffy and the only time inquisitors usually use they bombardment is when they are facing thousands of daemons.

another thing inquisitors CANNOT wipe out theyr forces if they consist of marines especially. that would be considered an act of war between the chapter and inquisition especially if they r first founders who dont take crap from inquisitors.

[DarthFelth]

now thats something i would love to see :D the only chaptors they would get away with such things on are one likes the Flesh tearers who keep a tower full of insane marines in ;)

[DR_RANSOM]

Another point about WMDs. In todays world the us does not use nukes as battle feild weapons. They would use them to blow up troop concertrations, bridge heads, and lines but not during a tank battle. In Warhammer 40k they use orbital strikes in massive battles. So in DOW I hope that that WMDs are used only in a battle, no base assault. And they are accurately represented. THey actually do some damage (a.k.a. a s**t load), they are impossible to get, they can be stopped, and they can be turned off in multiplayer.

[DarthFelth]

in todays world they dont tend to use nukes fullstop ;) let alone if they had troop near by, they shouldnt be included in a useable fasion, only as a objective or something in singleplayer and a effect on the story, not on the gameplay

[Anthonace]

i'd like to see a mission where you have to fight while your positions are being shelled by eneny atillery that could take out the unlucky squad

[Vulkan]

THE HOLY WARRIORS OF THE MIGTHY MAN EMPORER HAVE NO NEED TO FIGHT WITH WEAPONS FROM AFAR WE ARE THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES OUR VERY BODYS ARE WEAPONS AND OUR FAITH IS OUR SHEILD

Purge The Mutant
Burn the Heretic
Kill the Alien

[Vulkan]

Orbital Bomabardments are used for precise hits on enemy at key locations, it is different to an exterminatus burn the planet clean it is activated by a space marine of rank or an inquisitor of lord status. A bombardment is used precisly on desegnated targets and can be very inaccurate from orbit.
In the games i played with demonhunters i have lost 2 squads of grey knights immolated, 3 Stormtroopers squads and 2 land raiders to my own Orbital Bomabardments.

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by Vulkan
Orbital Bomabardments are used for precise hits on enemy at key locations, it is different to an exterminatus burn the planet clean it is activated by a space marine of rank or an inquisitor of lord status. A bombardment is used precisly on desegnated targets and can be very inaccurate from orbit.
In the games i played with demonhunters i have lost 2 squads of grey knights immolated, 3 Stormtroopers squads and 2 land raiders to my own Orbital Bomabardments.

I think you just repeated what i just said, no biggie though.


Just went back and read some of the newer posts, okay first of all. Maximus, wanna bet? Seriously, the inquisitor lords can KILL anyone and i mean ANYONE except for high ranking officers with ease. Hell, even in the codex it has a bit of fluff where an inquisitor states "all your forces shall join me on the field of battle or it will not be Daemons blood that stains my weapon today" Or something VERY CLOSE to that.

Also, the only time a nation uses Nuclear and Thermonuclear weapons allout is in the case of :

M.A.D

Mutually Assured Destruction.

Basically a war scenario where they hit you, you hit them harder, then it goes back and forth until we are all cinged to a crisp.


Yet another Edit:

Okay, if you read the fluff on Coteaz he actually destroys a demonic artifact on sight and declares that another inquisitor lord is Daemonic. He promised that before his sand ran out in his hourglass justice would be served. It was, the inquisitor was destroyed, and now Coteaz is considered a figure of fear and his name alone has been known to end a daemonic threat.

HUZZAH BIOOOOOTCH!

[No Surrender]

Actually, Inquisitors can kill ANYONE. Even the high lords of terra. But they have to have a reason.

[Maximus Decimus]

But they have to have a reason

that is exactly what i was getting at because what the other person was getting at was the inquisitors could "u saw these daemons and now must die" to anyone which is not true because they cant do that to saaayyy chapter masters of 1st founding chapters(note: in case of no just cause). Hey u do know that the inquisition is not stupid because if they went about their business like that then they would have civil war. they do what is best in their own interests and killing logan grimnar because he utilizes a daemon weapon wont cut it. The inqs have been known to "tolerate" curtain chapters and figures because of fear of civil war. would u not think that theyd go kill the chapter master for using daemon weapons? yes they would like the relictors but there are exceptions and while they can kill anyone they wont because there will be conciquences. they also "tolerate" alot of the 1st founders. they "tolerate" logan grimnar and he even said f*ck off to the inquisition, think if a regular chap master said that they would live? no.

oh SoheilsX from ur very last statement "hazahh bioootch" i must ask how old are u? ur imaturety has no bounds.

[Vulkan]

An inquisitor cannot "kill" a high lord as that is who the inquistion answers to its the eseliarchy. Oh and a exterminatus could be used in a scenario like a take and hold for 15mins and the world dies
I am more worried about psykers ingame
they could really do some damage!!!

[Anthonace]

So could a lance strike smashig your land raider open :steam:

[Carach]

hmm seems i have not been around lately and this thread has got quite busy :P

[SoheilsX]

If this game does not have physkers im gonna be pissed.
Physkers are one of the BIGGEST parts of warhammer 40k.

[Captain Zog]

Psykers would be fine, just as long as they don't get Vortex, they can have powers as starcraft like unit upgrades (that use a power bar which recharges)

Inquisitors wouldn't kill marines for coming into contact with chaos (well, none except the most extreme ones) as space marines go through preparation to fight chaos, Grey Knights even more so, as it is their only duty.
Regular marines can fight corruption themselves, the wouldn't need killed, unless a taint could be found.

[The Collector]

So they will kill everyone from all the SM regiments despatched to fight Chaos? (13th Black Crusade)

At least it doesn't apply to imperial navy...

[Carach]

bah humans r weak minded...they turn easy.

[Maximus Decimus]

lol should i remind u that u r a human? are u saying u r weak minded? i curtainly like to think myself strong minded lol.

[Shim]

Originally posted by Carach
bah humans r weak minded...they turn easy.

Grey Knights :P

[deggy]

Shim,

Grey Knights, in fact, none of the Space Marines are "human"... Guardsmen are Human, Sisters of Battle are Human, the Imperial Navy are human... Space Marines are not.

So keep your tongue in your mouth please, its not polite to stick it out :)

[Shim]

Yeah but their strong wills aren't the result of any genetic engineering or altering of their bodies...It's the training they go through and their faith.

But I don't wanna get into a discussion with you Deggy, you seem too have much uber powerful fluff knowledge...haha :D

[deggy]

I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't, eh?

[Shim]

Hehe, true.

If you don't mind I have a question for you, what is the rate of fire of bolt weapons? I believe in the Inquisitor rule book is says they are semi-auto, but in all artwork they are usually spewing shots everywhere. And since your working on a 40k game with marines I figured you would know..... :)

[deggy]

I actually do not know the answer to this question, but I do have a hunch. The artwork developed by the artists is definitely of the inspirational vein, that is to say, they are not trying so much to 'accurately' represent the universe as they are trying to capture the emotional impact of it.

A couple really good examples are in the Chaos Codex. In the back Chaos Cult sections, the introduction to the Deathguard section (pg.50 my personal fav) has a b/w image of a Plague Marine firing a heavy bolter. As we all know, Deathguard are not allowed heavy bolters. But the image looks "freaking awesome" so you know what? It's ok. And on pg 65 there's a shot of a Daemon Prince who looks like he's 10m tall. Is he to scale, who knows? But the image is undoubtedly stunning.

While you're at it, you might as well question why the guns are giving off casings at all. After all, bolter ammunition is described in some locations as a solid, rocket propelled slug. In the end, it doesn't really matter... if the picture looks cool and gets your imagination going, it's done its job, and if the tabletop game is well balanced and provides for fun gaming experiences, it's done its job as well.

So there you go, my best guess is, "In illustrations, the bolters spew out gobs of casings because it looks more visceral and dynamic in a still image. It captures a certain continuation of action that a single shell might not."

If you want the definitive answer, you'll have to get through to GW :)

[Shim]

Those are good points and I agree with all of them

"If you want the definitive answer, you'll have to get through to GW"

Heh, not much chance of that, that's why I asked you :)

[Maximus Decimus]

wait! i have an answer!


Bolters are normally set for rapid fire, each pull of the trigger firing burst of three or four bolts in quick succession

- 3rd edition rulebook p60

make what u will of that

note: rapid fire weapons represent assault rifles/sub machine guns that can lay down withering hails of fire.

reference - 3rd edition rulebook p57

hope i was of assistance

[Shim]

Thanks max. I don't know how they manage to have enough ammo for them though, as each bolt is .75 cal and the clips look like they can only hold about ten of them :)

[deggy]

Ah, the division between reality and fantasy! Ain't fantasy grand!

How else could Clint Eastwood or Chow Yun-Fat survive without the neverending supply of bullets in their guns?

For anyone interested, here's an example at Adrian Smith's homepage (he's one of the GW artists) [http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/]
here's some bullets [http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/gallery/large/c_as_1028.html]
and here's the Plague Marine with the heavy bolter
[http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/gallery/large/c_as_1016.html#2]

[Shim]

Adrian Smith does some great art, he's probably my favorite GW artist, along with Paul Dainton.

The reason I was wondering about the technical aspects of a bolter is because I'm working on a certain project. I guess if there's no single official word on them I'll just make how I think they should be :)

[Shadione]

Shim said:
But I don't wanna get into a discussion with you Deggy, you seem too have much uber powerful fluff knowledge...haha
Deggy said:
I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't, eh?

Bah, all your fluff knowledge you got from me, Deggy! You're still a punk!

Thought I wouldn't bring the abuse to the forums, did you? YOU THOUGHT WRONG!!! :luff:

[deggy]

This is true, and i will admit it freely... Jay has forgotten more than I'll ever know...

And dammit, I wish he'd remember, cause he keeps buggin me with his questions all the f*cking time :)

[Soulblighter]

am i going to have to separate you two?

[Carach]

lol

[Anthonace]

anyway.....

I would like to see 3 wihlwinds raining death on groups of orks

[Carach]

hmm...poor orks..lol *imagines hundreds of orks flying up in the air loosing their limbs as massive explosions annihilate them all*

[DarthFelth]

i would like to see Bloodletter cuttin marine heros into little tinny pieces ;)

[Maximus Decimus]

itd be awesume watching a hero with lightning claws rip through a mass of blood letters hehe

[DarthFelth]

i would be awsmone to see, but it wouldnt happen :p daemons rule :flamer:

[Maximus Decimus]

lol uv got a big ego but truth is it happens alot these days especially with awesume wolf lords such as mine whos even slain a greater daemon once(blood thirster) lol that was a glorious day worthy of a song.

[Anthonace]

or mabie even a saga

'I shall smite thee foul daemon' spake the wolf lord
' commend thy soul to Chaos' it replied foully.....

and so on

[DarthFelth]

yeah i played enough games against certain people which have increased my hatred for dark angels.

[Carach]

lol