A Cool Idea for Space Marines...

[Propbuddha]

Relic did this with Homeworld and I think it would be pretty cool in Dawn of War...

Allow players to customize their Space Marines colors (or other factions) and apply insignias to the shoulder pads.

Want Ultramarines? Got em. Blood Angels? No problem....

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah that would be good, wev discussed this in the wishlist thread i believe. yeah at least u could get the marines to resemble ur fav chapter even though ur missing the special units, assets on a marine, etc. yeah it would be good and i think there could be a chance they do it but how would they apply the colors to tanks?.

[badass]

also if you choose a chapter like space wolfs, have there special units like long fangs

[Captain Stern]

And if you choose Dark Angels you have the Deathwing, if you choose Black Templars you have the Chamion if you choose Ultramarines you have tyranid hunters...
Don't overstretch it. There can be no special unit for every special chapter.

[No Surrender]

Look, if the SM get chapter specific stuff, I want the Imperial Guard to get Special units for every regiment there is. I also want the Eldar to have units unique to every CraftWorld. See what I'm getting at? Either just have generic Chapters or don't have SMs at all.

[Maximus Decimus]

well to tell ya space marines are gonna be in there and they are games workshops goldmine after all. i highly doubt that there will be any chapter specific stuff becuase then ud have to do what u suggest to every other race featured and its too much work for a game with a development cap of 2 yrs. so u probebly wont see that dark angle, space wolf, blood angle stuff. the original idea was to have customizable colors for all races like in homeworld which would be great but may cause problems translating to tanks and dreads.

[DarthFelth]

No surrender, you just dont like marines, just deal with it ;)

[Van]

Originally posted by badass
also if you choose a chapter like space wolfs, have there special units like long fangs


Thats probably asking for a bit too much. Lets at least hope for a skinning tool where were can dress our marines in our fav chapter colors. They may all be the same power wise but at least they will look like Space Wolves, Ultras, Dark Angels ,etc.

[Maximus Decimus]

yes that is true and i tried to pt out that its unreasonable to include such things at initial release in my other posts.

[DarthFelth]

i was more hoping on modders, i hope its like in hw2 were you can add new races, then atleast you can still use the default one :D

[No Surrender]

Darth, I do not hate the Space Marines. I hate Space Marine players who think "The Space Marines are so great because they're genetically engineered and superior to normal humans, Relic should spend time creating SM chapters rather than working on other races"

[Maximus Decimus]

i definetly said that was totally unreasonable(SWs for me) but fluffwise space marines are awesume u gotta give us that at least, fun stories to read, not that im saying that other races arnt cool too...except mybe those orks lol jk. now lets get back to topic and stop stereo typing everybody cause if we did that we can say eldar players complain cause of tau, tau complain they need snipers even though its not even fluffy(they cannot focus well), blah blah blah etc etc etc so stop stereo typing ppl.

[Tribunal]

Well, in Relic's defense, it would be easier to alter the standard marine model than, say, create a tyranid army. If you have a great story that fits, a publisher that has a set deadline for you and limited creative flexibility due to contractual agreements, then you go with what will work, get as much content in that you can, then hope it sells well so you can have add-ons at a future point in time.

(And yes, Space Marines are great story wise and play wise, though not in my top 3 armies of choice)

Edit:
And that's ASSUMING that they are doing SMs, CSMs, Orks and Eldar. Who knows what armies are going to be in? Certainly not us.

[Maximus Decimus]

well i think marines and orks are garanteed cause they wouldnt be featured in the screens if they werent. as for chaos and eldar no one knows and the concept art doesnt qualify as its concept art and the idea may have been dropped, as far as we know it could be necrons and tau in their place.

[Tribunal]

There is a great connection with the humans/eldar/chaos forces, and could lead to some really epic stories. As far as the orcs, well, they could either be tools being used by chaos forces, or maybe the chaos forces would be acting after the scattered ocs were united under one banner and running amuck through the imperium.

[DarthFelth]

No Surrender, i think what i think of marines cos
1) i actualy look at the stats
2) how they perform
3) perherps i read some of the fluff

Marines are the elite fighting force of the Imperium, that is fluff, they are stronger, faster and tougher than a normal man, even the stats show this, perhaps everything that GW has written has presented this way because, dum dum dum, they are the best of the best, the fact is they were altered for fighting, and if they wernt, what then, Guard have not been, so that perhaps gives them a damn large advantage....

[No Surrender]

So they're genetically engineered. The IG have the best tanks...

[DarthFelth]

actualy no they dont, marines have the land raider, that is said to be the best tank, i mean it can transport 10 marines, 5 termies and can deal with most tanks and can handel troops, and what anout the land raider Crusder, that can handel tanks and troops and transport even more troops, both having armour 14 all around along with the machine spirit rule, allowing to move and still fire 2 weapons (Crusader firing all it weapons cos of teh machine spirit rule and its bolters)

What about thunder hawks, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, land speeders, these are all very good units, so no imperial guard dont have the best tanks/vehicles by far my friend ;)

[No Surrender]

Yes they do. Have you ever heard of a Baneblade? Or a Shadow Sword? The IG have access to super heavy tanks designed to hunt titans. The Land Raider doesn't stand a chance.

[Maximus Decimus]

actually FLUFF wise the land raider is the deadliest tank of the imperium here ill quote a couple of things ,


its size makes it less unwieldy in battle than the super heavy baneblades, stormhammers, and shadowswords used by the imperial guard, without and significant reduction in protection


...including medical facilities, life support, and a shrine to keep spiritual purity....adapted to use almost any fuel type, including gasses, fossil fuel, liquids, and vegetative matter.


....provide excellent command and control facilities, allowing the land raider to be a base of operations....


its thick armor able to withstand all but the most destructive land based weaponary in the GALAXY. several land raiders can form a defensive line against counterattack or create a near impenetrable enclave inside enemy held territory. its twin linked lascannons(godhammer pattern) are the best tank-busting armament found on a vechile of its size...

- Index Astartes: space marine land raider.
- Games Workshop

the super heavys are vulnerable to lascannon fire as anything else and they do not provide all the facilities as the land raider or can do battle in all the environments as the land raider, it is the most versitile tank in the imperium and can deal with any situation as the super heavys are large target specially designed to take titans but will fair the same in battle against armored companies of land raiders as guard regular tanks, the immense size of super heavys is also their disadvantage. A small group of land raiders can take on cities full of enemies and large amount of defences while superheavys are large targets and clumbersome. it is favoured by the imperium to send land raiders in big armored battles rather then super heavys. a lascannon will pierce a superheavy and take it out anyway. read quotes carefully as they do prove my pt that the land raider is the most versitile tank in the imperium.

[Tribunal]

I guess it depends on what sort of opponents you are going to face. As far as titan removal, take a super-heavy any given day. If it is an anti-tank operation, then a land raider would do the trick.

How about anti-personnel? What would be the tank of choice?

[ankara halla]

Land Raider Crusader

[Maximus Decimus]

I guess it depends on what sort of opponents you are going to face. As far as titan removal, take a super-heavy any given day. If it is an anti-tank operation, then a land raider would do the trick.

i agree one hundred percent and yeah a land raider crusader is ur best option for anti-personel.

[Tribunal]

Now, is that for all the races, or just the tanks in the arsenal of humanity? (sm and ig)

[Maximus Decimus]

Just the Imperium because obviouslly there may be a better xenos tank for such and such a task. this is not open for debate cause it will most likely lead to a horrible argument(no concrete proof saying this tank is better then that tank).

[DarthFelth]

i cant even think of any marine super heavies that i know exsist anymore :( i dont think they super heavies count as how many 40k super heavies do you own :p

[Maximus Decimus]

what r u talking about bud? space marines dont have super heavys and they r not suited for armored conflicts between lots of tanks.

[DarthFelth]

they did in epic, they had one thankyou very much, im sure it was a squat think as well...

[No Surrender]

The best anti personel tank would be the Leman Russ Exterminator. With a Twin Mounted AC, 3 Hvy bolters and a pintle mounted heavy stubber, the Exterminator can pour out 14 shots a turn. The best tank in a tank to tank conflict would be the Leman Russ Vanquisher. It's cannon can fire devastating AT shells that in game terms is like a range 72" melta gun capable of blowing apart a land raider before it even got a chance to fire it's las cannons.


...including medical facilities, life support, and a shrine to keep spiritual purity....adapted to use almost any fuel type, including gasses, fossil fuel, liquids, and vegetative matter.
The Guard don't need medical facilities. If the tank is part of an armourd company then most casualties would burn to death inside their tanks. If it was part of an infantry regiment then the Infantry are expendable anyway...


....provide excellent command and control facilities, allowing the land raider to be a base of operations....
The Imperial Guard have the Improved coms upgrade which in fluff turns a tank into a command tank. It also has things like command Chimeras and Salamander command vehicles.


its size makes it less unwieldy in battle than the super heavy baneblades, stormhammers, and shadowswords used by the imperial guard, without and significant reduction in protection
Who needs to move to capture objectives when you can sit there and blow the living daylights out of anything and everything. LRs don't have as many or as powerful weapons as a super heavy.

Also, super heavies rarly do anything alone, the nature of the IG is to swamp the enemy with as many infantry and tanks as possible. So in a siege, the IG would not send in Bane Blades or Shadow Swords as support. More likely they would use Demolishers, Thunderers and Medusas.

[ankara halla]

While in no way disrespecting the fomidable Leman Russ and it´s variants... I still must say that the Crusaders max of 18 shots a round (...15 of them twin-linked with a BS of 4...) combined with it´s formidable armour (much better than Russ´ against assault squads as the Crusader doesn´t have a weak angle) would make the Crusader the more formidable tank (not to mention the more expensive one! :D ) against infantry. :)

As to the general differences between the Russ and the Raider, I´d say that since the two tanks are of such a different variety (for example one of them is used with the support of the rest of the army while the other is a highly specialzed(sp?) unit) I´d say a direct comparison is impossible.

The Land Raider is, wihtout a doubt, the best tank for the kind of specialized(sp?) stuff it´s meant to do (both fluff wise and rules wise) while the Leman Russ is without a doubt the best all-around tank available to the Imperium (both fluff wise and rules wise).

[Maximus Decimus]

sadly some of that may be logical but ur mistaken, fluff wise the land raider is the tank killer of its class and has the best armor for its class, a exterminator for regiment battles? wtf r u smoking a crusader is far more effiecent and better then the exterminator. for big tank battles the FLUFF SAYS LAND RAIDER IS THE BEST and can out beat any other tank of its class which is top class. hmm vanquisher gets cought on its side armor oh its gone, land raider does crew goes "wha what was that meh" the fluff clearly states the land raider is the tank for tank battles and such. it also has a much higher survivability rating and can survive in harsher conditions.


it was one of the few vechiles that could hold off and even destroy the massice titans...


its ability to fight in almost any imaginable warzone, including seabeds and in highly corrosive atmospheres, meant that it saw more service than any other machine in war.

u will see that in the battle of thranx that the tanks u mention would have been crushed uterly. funny how u only respond to the qoutes that u can best defend and not all of them hmm.

lol forgot to comment on this one bud


its thick armor able to withstand all but the most destructive land based weaponary in the GALAXY. several land raiders can form a defensive line against counterattack or create a near impenetrable enclave inside enemy held territory. its twin linked lascannons(godhammer pattern) are the best tank-busting armament found on a vechile of its size...

show me somewhere where it says that a small group of leman russ whatever mark can perform like so. if there is a tank battle it will be x land raiders = y number of leman russ mark whatever therefore they are at a 2:1 disadvantage or worse.

[No Surrender]

Yes, Leman Russes are more versitile than LRs but LRs excell at what they are designed for.

[ankara halla]

@everybody and nobody in general (and all IMHO of course :) )

Again, I don´t think a direct comparison between the tanks is possible as a Russ would never work alone against a lone Raider (neither fluff- nor rules wise) and despite the advantages of both tanks they both still are quite vunerable and far from invincible.

Gamewise, to be honest, I´d rather have an option for a Russ than any other tank in my HS slot since with a tactical squad to back one up I´d be invincible! Yes... INVINCIBLE!!! ...and am thus quite jealous of Space Wolfs for their HS slots (not to even mention the Long Fangs... grrrr....)

And having said that, I don´t think there can be any doubt that given a situation where a single Raider faced a single Russ (in any enviroment conciveable) the Raider would very likely rumble out as the victor.
It´s a whole different discussion if that alone makes the Raider the better tank though.

[Maximus Decimus]

if they cannot do what a tank is normally required to do eg storm into heavyly armed area better then another then its not better. the land raider is stated to be the most feared tank in all the imperium. if a land raider can survive in harsher atmospheres and withstand almost any shot from a ground based structure then its better then a leman russ. a couple of land raiders can defend themselves from a entire assault and a near inpenetrable blockade/enclave while a leman russ cant then how can a leman russ be a better tank? note that the original argument was that imperial guard tanks are better then land raiders meaning OVERALL. jesus.


the land raiders of the adeptus astartes are among the most awe-inspiring sights on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. they are mighty behemoths that crush all before them under adamantium tracks, and their godhammer pattern lascannons are the bane of the enemy vechiles and bunkers. if the imperium's land raiders are objects of such dread then those employed by chaos...blah blah blah

the leman russ's cannot withstand the punishment of land raiders and cannot out preform the land raiders in a battle. has it ever stated that leman russes can do whats been stated above and in my other quotes or that leman russes can take on titans? stop saying that leman russes are better tank and provide me with some proof dammit ala quotes and their source, etc.

- Index Astartes: Chaos Space Marine tanks/Beasts of Steel.

[ankara halla]

Chill out dude :)

First of all, I think I should make it clear that I´m talking about the whole tank issue from three different prespectives ( 1) fluff wise, 2) current rules wise and 3) real-life-armoured-combat-translated-to-a-fantasy-sci-fi-world wise) so let´s take it from there.

1) I haven´t for once disputed the fact that the Land Raider is the armoured combat unit of the 41st century. This is obvious (and has been obvious since the days of Rogue Trader) and is hardly even a topic worthy of discussion.
Having said that, rather than faceless members from a message board providing quotes without sources you should look into the fuff written about the Leman Russ yourself as there is plenty of it available.

2) Rules wise, take a Land Rider and give it a few upgrades and you´ll end up spending close to 300 points.
Give me <300 points of troops slots from any army and I´ll take that Land Rider down. Give me <300 from the HS slots of any army and I´ll take that Raider down with no sweat.
However... give an IG player 300 points to choose as he pleases with the excetion that he must take a Leman Russ (or it´s variant) and take troops/vehicles incuding a Land Raider from any other army (those being quite limited :p ) for 300 points and you´ll be sweating to take that tank out while preserving yours, if you can even do it.

3) In real life combat, a tank (or even a squad or a battalion of them) never goes out to try to accomplish anything alone as that would be suicide. The way a real army works is by every unit backing up the other units.

Even fluff wise a Leman Russ squadron would never try to accomplish what a squadron of Land Raiders would be set out to do and thus a dicert comparions as to the battle prowness between the two tanks is quite impossible.




And for the record, I´ve never said the Leman Russ is the better tank. Just that it´s impossible, in games or fulff terms to directly compare the two beasts.

[Van]

Jesus Max, lay off the Mt Dew. The ins and outs of the various armies and their elements can debated without popping a blood vessel.

Thats what these forums are for after all to talk about and debate the game(s).

Just as you see the Space Wolves as the greatest and best marine chapter, there are going to be players of W40K who see some elements of their particular army as superior to elements of other armies. They very well could be correct as well.

[DarthFelth]

but if you took 300 points of guard with lemon Russ then the russ wouldnt be out performing at as it isnt on its own :p

You can take 300 points from any army and design it to do one thing, course then it crap at doing most other things, and in a marine army, whats that, 20 models before weapons, so nearer 15 with upgrades, 15 models ant that hard to kill you know (just as a example)

[ankara halla]

@DarthFelt
Exactly my point concerning the "value/battle prowness/I´m-better-than-you" evaluation of the tanks :)

You can indeed take 300 points from any army to do just one thing but as it is the Raider is by far more limited in what it can do than the Russ and do note that to make the comparison a bit even I did point out that the other player had to take a tank (Raider/Russ) too. :)

[DarthFelth]

erm dude, it was tank on tank, a certain person was saying the lemon russ was better, it isnt, simple as, as i said, youcould design 300 points do pretty much what you, it isnt a fair way of doing it. You will say hows this. how many squads in a rmy would you face that were designed just to kill say a land raider, and if that unit came up to same points and wasnt that great at doing anything else, lets face it, its a waste of points. I could spend 300pts on dreadnoughts and they would rip a Land raider apart then get stuck in combat with a large unit and well, be a waste of points.

i thought this was about who had the best tanks, not who could do the best with 250pts to kill one thing. anyways superheavies ant at the same level :p

[ankara halla]

*sigh* ..this is getting a bit redundant (wouldn´t you agree :) ) so as to this topic this will be my final post.

Sure, as I myself said before a Land Raider would most likely take out a Leman russ were they dueling it out. However, such a comparison is worthless and useless. An equally silly comparison would be to pitch a Firewarrior against an Assault Terminator to see who would slug it out... all the Termie would need to do is give the poor Tau a mean look for the little bugger to keel over and play dead but does that automatically make the Terminator the "better" unit? Of course not!

The point is, once again and for the last time, that direct comparisons between two units which are not meant for the same thing is quite impossible, or if done anyway it doesn´t tell squat about one unit or another.

[DarthFelth]

i think that was actualy the point, that it was a better tank, with more options..... how many lemon russ's can blow up tanks and then out pop a squad of marines, none

[Van]

Opinion offered as fact doesnt make it so.

[Maximus Decimus]

alright at the beginning of this argument we were discussing some aspects of marines in the fluff and then someone poped up and said well at least the imperial guard have the best tanks which i took fluff wise as the discussion before that was on fluff not on game rules or anything. i tried to prove a pt to that man that fluff wise russes arnt what he portraid them to be.

gamewise i believe the land raider to be overpriced and since the SM codex is the oldest out there that may be the reason. it also cant out preform some of the guard varients in the game cause of range. i never once argued that it was better in the game, all i argued was fluff and that is what the argument was based on originally.

the quotes i provided that were not marked of source were repling to another man who was argueing the quotes with me. they come from 2nd edition fluff, index astartes space marine land raider, and index astartes chaos land raider.

"Just as you see the Space Wolves as the greatest and best marine chapter"

lol well i dont because they are all equal in their own right and SW are just the chapter that has the fluff that i like and is just simply the chapter that i like.

anyway happy gaming.

[Van]

That was my point Max. They are your fav so you see their strengths and abilities as better than another chapter. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Maximus Decimus]

alright but i didnt offer any facts that were opinion related, all my quotes were my supporting arguments and iv listed where they came from.

hey lets drop this and mybe get back on topic about what a cool idea would be for SM. iv stated mine i believe idea other ideas?

[DarthFelth]

i really lost track of this thing.....hmm, one thing id love to see marines do is to allow them to be kept back and deploy in drop pods in game, Termies to be teleported, stuff like that, just so long as this game isnt like C&C generals thens its all cool

[z-beam]

darth feth. lemon russ? leman russ... nice pun (if it was intentional).

[DarthFelth]

lol, its 5am, bite me :p

[z-beam]

do you think morale will be included? if so a squad that had almost been wiped out running back to the lz (landing zone), fire base or comand bunker would be fun to see.

not to mention realistic. space marines are fearless tho so we wont be seeing that particular race sh!t emselves and run...

[DarthFelth]

they ant fearless, they have shaken instead :p but i would hope so, they would be great to see, i would love to see the commisar rule include for if they did run, that would be even more fun to see, but i dunni how ork mob rules would work, that could create some problems.

[No Surrender]

Space Marines are not Fearless. They will, on occasion, conduct tactical retreats or a "Controled advance towards the rear"

[DarthFelth]

what did i just say!!!!

[No Surrender]

you said "they have shaken instead" That does not imply a retreat.

[DarthFelth]

well assume people know the rules, g what a idiot i am for thinking might actualy know the rules of shaken

[No Surrender]

The only shaken I know of is when a vehicle is glanced and the crew is stunned.

[Captain Zog]

Hiya, just thought i'd join the forum as i am pretty excited about this game.

Guess i must be unlucky but the first convo i entered has this big flame war happening about which army has the best tanks, just my luck.

But anyway, i would love to see deepstriking units in the game, and the ability to skin your own units, to personalise your chapter (make beards for space wolves for eg)

EDIT If anyone is wanting a discussion about 2nd Ed fluff, i wouyld be most happy to oblige with info as i have both the original box set and the dark millenium update which, incidently, contains the original Brother Captain Stern story which was republished in codex deamonhunters

[DarthFelth]

Surrender - ok fine, i was thinking of 2nd ed, oh who cares, ok, they shall know no fear rule, what does it matter, not alot really, you sad little child, deal with it, you know what i meant unless your some child that never played 2nd ed or think that the current version is something like 2nd or 1st ed

Zog - yeah that would be great

[Captain Zog]

I hope the forthcoming 4th ed is more of a mix of 2nd and 3rd, looking at the new trial vehicle rules, it certainly seems to be shaping up nicely

[DarthFelth]

yeah same here, i like the limitations on units, but i mean the way weapons work dont seem that great compared as the way they did in 2nd ed, same as with close combat really

[No Surrender]

Feth-Despite the weak insult directed at me in your last post to me I am going to break off this discussion.

I would also like to see DSing in DoW and not just for the Space Marines. The Eldar have swooping hawks, the Marines have drop pods and the Guard have Grav Shutes.

About 4th edition. I hope that it is less assault orientated than 3rd edition. Right now most (not all) assaulty armies can charge towards the opponent at full speed and hack their way to victory while it requires a large amount of skill at fire control and a bit of luck to defeat one of these armies by shooting.

[DarthFelth]

that ant true at all, you should try playing some of the armies i have, it requires luck to even get to them to hack them apart, alot of the shooting armies require no tactics at all

[No Surrender]

alot of shooting armies require no tactics at all
Even the most basic stand and shoot army requires good fire diciplin to win. You can't just stand there and pick random targets.

[Captain Zog]

I've been playing with a guard Infantry army recently (in preparation for the Conflict Edinburgh competition) and found the use of tactics to be a necessity for this stand and shoot force, as an army such as speed freaks can quickly get the advantage (usually by the second turn) and be in combat and then its pretty much over.

An entirely infantry army can really throw your opponents sometimes, especially if they have a zap gun or a predator annihilator.

[Tribunal]

A shooting army can be taken out VERY quickly by a relatively small hand to hand force. Also, lining up your squads of shooters in one big clump or one behind the other is just you asking to be killed off -- all you need is one good jumper and that whole squad is fubar'd. That was one good thing about swooping hawks -- turn one have them take off, have the rest of your forces take defensive positions, then turn two have the hawks descend on enemy shooter units, leaving the rest of your units free to approach and engage at will. It worked very well against artillery, in particular, and the swooping hawks also had a hth bonus due to that tactic as well.

[DarthFelth]

pick targets to use big guns on dosnt require that much brain power nor a large amount of tactics, that being why i dont tend to use shooting armies

[No Surrender]

pick targets to use big guns on dosnt require that much brain power nor a large amount of tactics
Neither does charging at the nearest enemy unit and then sweeping advance to the next...

[Captain Zog]

Guard really get minced by a good hand to hand force, but then the hand to hand force get shot to pieces by the guard (especially terminators and daemon princes when i am firing lasguns :p )


Hand to hand versus shooty gives some of the best games i've ever played, the tides of battle shift quickly to either side and you really need your head screwed on right to ensure you prioritise correctly (which, if everything is going tits up, can be quite a challenge).
New assault rules with the above situation are about the only way to get decent tactics going anymore.

[DarthFelth]

take alot more when you are trying to get there, instead of, oh, point bang shot, oh look i have battle cannons, lala, i 'll just kill these units, and not really used much tactics then moan that my stuffs crap in combat and that it takes so many tactics and brain cells to use a shooty army, so much moving and all......

[No Surrender]

Playing Guard is alot more complicated than choosing where to put the Battle Cannon's ordinance template. A guard army is not always just a stand and shoot army. Talk to a player that plays a drop troop army, or mechanised infantry. While it is true that some people just stand and shoot for the whole game and hope to god that the opposing army is destroyed before it can get to them I use strategies that require alot of planning and co-ordination to pull off. For example, once, my enemy was hell bent on charging my Russ so he could slap melta bombs on it. I manuvoured an Armoured Fist squad behind him, used the 3 Hvy Bolters on the Russ to inflict a 25% Casualty check which he failed and promptly got crossfired.

Just because shooty armies don't move it doesn't mean it's cheesy or requires not tactics. It is not about how many guns you have or how powerful they are, but what you choose to shoot at with those guns. I have seen people wasting a Krak Missile on the rear armour of a Rhino when they had a Multi Laser that could have done the job just as easily.

I could also argue that assaulty armies require no skill. It is all a matter of:
1) Move Forward
2) Hide behind rock/forest/hill
3) Wait for next movement phase
4) Move again.

[Captain Zog]

I don't have battle cannons, its an infantry company, i need to manage my stromtrooper deepstrike and my advancing flamer units correctly to break the brunt of the guys assault, its not a stand and shoot army, just a shooty army

[dArKB*****d]

I remember my tactics... attaaaaccckkkkk :num: Wade in and hope that they don't cut you down... advance that's what I did, I wasn't really a close combat army either I guess I felt as if my heros were invinciable.. well chaos lords in terminator almost are ;) as well as the other 15 terminators in my contingent .
:dyn:

[Tribunal]

I remember being at Gencon when they released the IG codex for 2nd ed... The rep there was mainly talking about artillery and blasting the opposition away from the other side of the map, and how that was their greatest advantage (shrugs). He did say though that one leader of an army, a Tyranid one, happened to have regeneration on all of the models that he could afford, and that even though they had been blasted one turn and "dead," they were up and running again the next, and that the IG army was wiped out. I guess that IG player was just relying on the big guns and thinking that was all the strategy that was needed.

[Captain Zog]

Lol yeah, the old IG artillery bombardment at the start of the battle, one battlecannon shot for every ordinance tank in your army at the start then generally 1 more shot per turn as the commlink was quite different then

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by Propbuddha
Want Ultramarines? Got em. Blood Angels? No problem....


Is it strange that when people talk like that i get pissed off beyond belief? No disrespect to you though propbuddha.


NEways, colours = HUGE PART OF WH40k, theres no way they should be left out.

[Tribunal]

Well, if they are not in the campaign mode, then there will probably be a color selector and badge selection ability, ala HW2, so it should not be overly hard to recreate your fave chapter (I know I know I know, Space Wolves have fur on them etc, but if nothing else at least the colors would match).

[DarthFelth]

actually i used to use a shooty army, i found them boring to use, however you are saying that same thing about close combat armies, that require very little tactics, i could go though 100 examples of how to use a close combat army, but, i cant be bothered, this something, that no matter what you say, i wont agree with, they dont require much in the form of tactics, just some common sense, choosing a target isnt tactics, its common sense, big difference. And yes some guard armies might be trooped base, however i cant remeber the last time i played a troop based guard army, thats the sorry truth, alot of people dont use troop based armies.

On the note of grey space marines in multiplayer, that wouldnt be anything like space wolves, you could get away with it for every other chaptor, but space wolves are to different just to get a tactical squad, paint erm grey and say "heres me space wolves"

[No Surrender]

Which shooty army? A Space Marine shooty army needs little skill but IG need it. Mainly because the IG are not BS 4 and don't have Str 4 Bolters.

[DarthFelth]

your point, how many more guns do yay get, how many more shots, it works out even, Guard shooty armies dont require skill to use, and i cant see how anyone has a rewarding victory.

[Captain Zog]

I have explained this before, my main opponent plays speed freaks, and i get extremely rewarding battles, we both use a variety of tactics each game and the battles are always very close.



It looks like we'll just agree to differ on the issue anyway, as we obviously have had different experiences

[nicholas9898989]

Easy: to give tanks a colour scheme - paint the chassis the chapter colour. It would be good if they had an editor where you could click on parts of the tank to change colour, chapter marks, etc. (like Paint in 3D)javascript:smilie(':idea:')

[nicholas9898989]

The Tau have the best tanks....lol

[negolith]

You guys keep saying that the landraider is this great tank. It's not. For 225 points (150 but it might take a little longer) you can destroy it before i could ever get into range. I'm talking about three tau broadside battlesuits. Each one armed with a twin-linked railgun. Those railguns a have 10 ap. They are also extremely long ranged. And they are +2 to hit. Kind of makes the crusader a lot weaker. Or for a few more points, upgrade to a team leader and two shield drones. Those gives you +2 invulnerable saves. Plus the fact that they have a normal +2 save and 2 wounds. Which means that your handy dandy crusader would most likely be blown up before it could ever return fire. And thats the simple version.

Disclaimer: points might be off as i am very far away from my codex. I don't think they are that far off.

edit: for grammer and whatnot

[Maximus Decimus]

negolith u must be the most ignorant man i have EVER met. first u bothered not to even read all the posts relating to that have u? tsk tsk tsk.

we were talking STRICTLY FLUFF do u understand? oh and FLUFF means story incase u were wondering whytf i am saying fluff for.

lol gamewise the landraider is overpriced and underpowered, should have special armor rules like the monolith.

god dammit read all the posts regarded to the subject matter before u go on about the land raider. tau have better tanks? lol fluffwise they have no tanks but 2 and those are easily shot down by a land speeder which costs about 1/4 of the production cost on a hammerhead, then we mention they are skimmers and r destroyed on a immoblise... all u need to do is aim ur pretty rocket launcher or lascannon at one of those engines sticking out of the side and the tank is done. tau tanks also cannot take as much of a beating. now this discussion was resolved a long time ago and there has no use to keep alive a dead discussion of this.

[deggy]

Hey Max, the Tau skimmers have the landing gear. which lets them avoid the death on immobilization like other skimmers if the player remembers to use them.

I think another issue is using the Broadside vs. Landraider debate.. Nego is talking about a counter vs its target. Sure 3 broadsides could take down a Landraider, that's what they are designed to do! But as an infantry unit with the armor save, they suffer from all the same issues of being able to fall to smaller arms fire in a way that vehicles can't.

That and it sounded like Nego is confusing the Landraider with the Landraider Crusader. Two entirely different vehicles, function wise.

[The Collector]

Fluffwise the IG have the vehicles out of Imperial Armor: this includes BaneBlade and the Tank Destroyer. Someone already mentioned a Leman Russ Vanquisher.

The IG's setup looks more standoff where the SM is closer-in. Space Marines are built around maneuver (their armor is distributed all around), IG is stand-off (armor distributed mostly to front). IG's tanks have the most firepower: but they do not have the sophisticated machine spirit stuff. They do not need all the extra frills the SM have.

[DarthFelth]

i dunno, a predator ant that bad with twin lascanons, armour 13 front and better trained troops, (i make a point of the armour as marine tanks dont have even armour around at all, the only things that do are skimmers or landraiders, which has max all round ;))

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah, lol these last 2 posts could possible start another war with imp guard players and marine players over my tank is better then ur tank which HAS been resolved in another thread being either "cool idea for marines" or "why always ultras"

a note i wanted to add is that do tau ever deploy theyr landing gear fluffwise? i dont think so especially cause they r very vulnerable when up close. anyway fluffwise the tau tank engines are easy to pick out and a missing engine spells disaster for tau tanks.

deggy ur right that u cant compare 3 broadsides with a landraider why? cause thats like comparing 4 plasma cannon devs/4 lascannon devs against a broadside/broadside team. must say u ppl gotta think before saying oh yeah my broads can kill ur tank gamewise easy well same goes for u if i use their anti.

[DarthFelth]

hehe, well you know im right, marine tanks arnt all even armour round ;) Anyways whats wrong with a flame war, its keeps me laughing for ages :D

[Maximus Decimus]

lol, well their stupid and childish, they also show how dumb and ignorant some ppl can be which probebly results in some laughs. anyway i dont like em cause it requires me or someone else to prove those 1st or 2nd yr dudes wrong and show them the real facts.

[DarthFelth]

no it dosnt :p i have my rougue trader round here somewhere, i can do that if i feel the desire to do so :p