Please tell me that I'm wrong...

[H.B.M.C.]

Hey, this is my first post!

Uhh... ok. There's something about Dawn of War that I want more than anything to be wrong about.

I've been looking over the few screenshots we've seen and have noticed a trend:

Basic Ork/Basic Marine
Ork Rokkit Boy/Marine Missile Launcher
Ork Burner Boy/Marine Flamer
Ork Nob/Ork Sergeant
Ork Dread-Killer Kan/Marine Dread

I'm going to take an educated guess and say that there are Stormboyz to go alongside the Marine Jump Packers.

From the looks of things, both side's units are completely identicle. Both sides have a flamer, a basic grunt, a rocket launcher, a fast assaulter, a walking tin-can, a leader-type etc.

Aside from a few subtle differences (Orks - better in HTH, less armour; Marines - better shots, more armour), are we about to get a game (like the original Homeworld, or games like Age of Empires, Total Annhilation, or, yes, even Ground Control) where there's virtually nothing separating the races other than some graphics?

Are we going to see a Chaos unit listing that goes:

Berzerker
Chaos Marine Flamer
Chaos Marine Missile Launcher
Aspiring Champion
Chaos Dread
Raptor

To match the other two races?

Is every side in this game going to be different only by name, graphics and a few tiny differences (and maybe a unique unit or two). I trust Relic as much as I do Valve or Raven, but so far what I've seen, whilst graphically impressive, leads me to believe that playing this game is going to be pretty similar with any given race.

I desperately want to be wrong here, so please, someone, anyone, tell me that I can bring a Marine with a Lascannon, or have Ork Boyz with 'Eavy Shooters, and that there isn't a generic "Grunt" troop, generic "Rocket Launcher" troop, just with different graphics?

BYE

[Zigguratei]

H.B.M.C..

While I would like to agree with you on seeing a larger differnce in races, I think I would rather have a well balanced game. Unfortunatly the best way to do that is to only tweak the smaller parts of what makes the races differnt. While I am sure that relic will have differnces in the races, most likely in resource accumiliation, I don't think if that if they are small differnce that it will be a reason to cry foul. After all this IS an RTS and you just named a huge range of games that have had some great balancing done. Read up on the "Innovation left in RTS post" by Fuzzysomthing.. (no offense Fuzzy...something)

Also remember that 40K itself needs to be balanced. How many times do we hear the cry of the word.. "cheese" on the portent, dakkadakka, yahoo forums? Heck I just finished reading a post about the new witch hunters being referred to as vanilla space marines with specials, and boobs. heheh.

So I would say it's safe to assume that you'll see a bunch o generics with differnt graphics, and small differnces BUT still differnces. And if you did find a lascannon in there, I'd bet that you'd find it with an orky equivilent too. Otherwise you'll end up with one race being played in multiplayer all the time and THAT is not a game I want to play. Albiet WarCraft II, eveyone plays Orcs because of BloodLust. Or if you will, the popularity of Blood Angles, Space Wolves, and Khorne.. and the cries of cheesiness. It isn't easy to do! Trust me.. I've been there.

[H.B.M.C.]

What makes it so hard?

As much as I don't like the game (I'll take TA or Homeworld any day), Starcraft managed to have three completely different forces, all perfectly balanced (or, as close to as you can get) against each other. Each side plays differently, each side has different units.

I don't want this to be Homeworld 1 on the ground, where the difference between my forces is the graphics they use to represent "Generic Rocket Launcher Unit". That's fine for normal RTSs, but 40K doesn't fit the normal RTS mold.

Thankfully, Relic has atleast seen part of this, as we won't be mining "warp-ore" or some other nonsense and then "building" Marines.

The next step from that is to realise that armies in 40K are not just cookie-cutter forces with different models and pain-schemes. There is variation between forces, and within armies.

BYE

[JayR]

Well I saw marines with heavy bolters in the screenshots that were in the german magazine. Also there have been talks about different upgrades for the troops. And one thing tkat will make the races definetly different are the techtrees and the way they gather requisition points (if I haven´t completely misunderstood what has been said). I wouldn´t be so worried about this issue as I trust Relic to do justice to the WH40k universe. Of course the game still needs to be balanced as Zigguratei already mentioned.

[H.B.M.C.]

Originally posted by JayR
Well I saw marines with heavy bolters in the screenshots that were in the german magazine.

Good. That's the kind've thing I want to hear - me being wrong! ;) I've love to able to "buy" a Marine squad, 10 men, and give them a heavy weapon of choice (maybe between HBs, Launchers & Lascannons), a special weapon (flamer or melta perhaps) and have a Sergaent with a nice power weapon or some kind.


Originally posted by JayR
I trust Relic to do justice to the WH40k universe.

So do I, but the screenshots just show pretty eye-candy and (possibly) repetative game-play.

BYE

[DarthFelth]

well i hope that the races arnt to the same and that my marines still are the emperors finest :D

[DarthFelth]

how can yay say its seems fine from a screenshot :rage: i mean you ant even played it yet :fight:

[JayR]

DarthFelth: A picture tells more than a thousand words. :)

[ÜberJumper]

Now I've not seen the game yet, so this is total speculation on my part, but here goes.

Dawn of War is based off the IC engine. In IC, you customized your armies by designing each unit type you'd like to have. You then picked which army you'd want to use before going into battle.

It's possible that what we'll see is a way to design your army/chapter whatever before going into a game. Then those units that you've designed will be available to you once you get into a game lobby.

The way upgrades worked in IC was that you'd then build structures and required items to be able to upgrade your units. The same type of thing may happen in DoW, where once you are on the field, you can start building structures which allow you to bring down and field your pre-designed heavy/more advanced units.

Anyway, I'm hoping to be at E3 again this year, make sure we find out the answers to these questions.

[Dimension]

as far as i understood the german PC gamer article, you don't actually build anything other than some building that provides you with energy. the article said something about you having to find/hold specific buildings/items to unlock certain unit types. if those are special units, or advanced units i don't recall.

also HBMC, what exactly are you complaining about? sure, most units have a similar counterpart for the other race, but thats the way it is at the tabletop as well. you have HTH units/weaponry, shooting units/weaps, heavy weaponry, fire-support, heavy units and fast-attack units for each and every army out there. be it orks, marines, tyranids, tau or eldar, every army has at least one unit that fills out one of the above-mentioned roles, except i can't come up with heavy weaponry for tau and nids(in case you're wondering, i mean things such as melta bombs and rocket launchers, heavy weapons handled by light units in other words).

[Carach]

tau have pathfinders with railrifles...

[deggy]

Heh, heh :)

Ok, answer me this... In the tabletop, do the Orks and Marines have all those weapons that you've pointed out?

And in the tabletop, do those weapons play exactly the same?

That's all I can say...

[Maximus Decimus]

yeah in 40k each unit has its counterpart but what makes it different is that u have to use them differently and thats probebly what will happen here too. everyone to my knowledge from PCGAMER North America can aquire requisition pts at least one way the same and thats by controlling key areas around the map. there r 12 buildings for each race to make upgrades available and mercenaries available for requisition. each race also has a different "tech tree" for example they provided the orks and the more orks there r the more u can summon and better units/buildings will become available which besides making them unique also makes u value ur troops. oh one final thing about the orks is that they can put guns on all their buildings lol.

[Shadione]

H.B.M.C., you're wrong. :)

The units in these first shots are similarly armed, but:

1) As deggy said, these counterparts exist in the 40k game, but work very differently. Same goes for our game. Orks can't hit the broad side of a barn, but are very shooty and mobile. Marines are more static, but very shooty, and very accurate. Orks are awesome at close combat, and thats where their power lies.

2) The lower end units tend to have more counterparts, but when you get further up the unit power chart the units differ much more radically. Even so, there are some broad differences in even the early units between some races.

Hope that answers your question, and puts to rest your fears.

FYI, multiple unique races is difficult to do because of game balance issues. Of course, that didn't stop us from doing Impossible Creatures. :)

[Noir]

Well there are always patches if any serious balance issues come up to a degree,here's to hoping that THQ will be more cooperative with Relic on support issues unlike sierra,though the very timely release of information that has happened,I think they will be :)

Btw,hi Mr Spacebattles person ;)

[DarthFelth]

well marines are still good in combat ;)

[Russian Ninja]

Even the Emperor's Finest Tin Cans and the Chosen Tin Cans of Chaos would have differences. The Imperial Space Marines fight more like an army, with precision and dicipline. Their units may all have a specific tactical purpose that works in conjunction with that of other units. On the other hand the Chaos Space Marines are like a warband, they're cobbled together around a particularly strong lord and generally fight individually. Their Daemons vs the improved Technology of the Imperials is another difference.

Well that's the way I see it anyway.

[DarthFelth]

when yay think about it, a chaos marine has had the same training as a marine, but a chaos marine has been around alot longer and to be fair would know everything a marine know and has more than likley used it which i doubt a marine has. Also some are enhanced by their time in the eye of terror (depending on how yay look at it). you can be so general with chaos as what may able to one group may not anouther. Like Thousands son wouldnt fight in the same way a Berzeker army :rant:

Now im getting bored of typing and i need some food and drink :banana:

[H.B.M.C.]

Originally posted by Shadione
H.B.M.C., you're wrong. :)

That's a good start. ;)


Originally posted by Shadione
1) As deggy said, these counterparts exist in the 40k game, but work very differently. Same goes for our game. Orks can't hit the broad side of a barn, but are very shooty and mobile. Marines are more static, but very shooty, and very accurate. Orks are awesome at close combat, and thats where their power lies.

Ah yes, but an Ork Burner is different to a Tactical Marine with a Flamer.

There is no "Ork Tactical Squad" in the same way that there is no Marine "Slugga Marine Mob". There are counterparts are far as weapons and roles go, but not between indevidual units.

The only armies that have near identicle troops choices are Marines and Chaos, and that's only in their most basic squad, with Devastators/Havocs and with some of their vehicles - and even then upgrades make them play compeltely differently to each other.

Guard and Marines may both have Lascannons, and Lascannons do the same thing the world over, but they are used differently in both these armies. Using Dawn of War for example, if Guard and Marines were both in it, having a Guardsmen with Lascannon and a Marine with Lascannon and calling it a day would not be a good design decision.

The basic Ork and the basic Marine are very different creatures. They are most certainly not "counter-parts". They are entirley different units that fulfil entirley different roles within their respective armies.

See, as much as I love the first Homeworld, there was nothing to differenciate (SP??) the two sides. Be it Kushan or Taiidan, my heavy cruiser was the same as your heavy cruiser even if they looked different. Sure one side had Cloaked Fighters and the other side had something which I don't think I ever used, but when it came to playing I chose Taiidan because I liked their graphics more, not because they had an advantages or disadvantages over the Kushan.

GDI & NOD from the original C&C had completely different units. I think, maybe, the Harvester and the basic Mini-gunner were the only units that were exactly the same (ignoring mundane buildings like power generators and whatnot). Their units weren't just different in their graphical representation, they were actually different units.

The original Dark Reign had the same.

Starcraft, as much as I dislike the game, has the same idea (although admittiedly it took them a while to find the balance).

Total Annihilation, alongside Homeworld, is probably one the few games to have opposing forces that are virtually identicle and still work properly. TA had a few more differences and unique units than HW did, but at the heart of it of both sides had a Missile K-Bot, an AA K-Bot, an Artillery K-Bot, a basic ship, a bigger ship, a battleship, a missile frigate, a bomer, an advanced bomber etc.

One thing I don't want Dawn of War to turn out like is something like Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3. That game had a number of sides that were completely identicle except that each side had one special unit that no one else could get. That game was... ick... just saying the name is blasphemy IMO.

You've said I'm wrong in this regard - good. I want to be wrong here. The screenshots just don't fill me with any confidence.


Originally posted by Shadione
2) The lower end units tend to have more counterparts, but when you get further up the unit power chart the units differ much more radically. Even so, there are some broad differences in even the early units between some races.

Well good. I just have this fear of my blessed :smurf: Assault Troops being no different to ork Stormboyz except in graphics and few smaller things (armour/morale), or my Rokkit Launcher being the same as a Marine Missile Launcher.

Anyway, you've said I'm wrong. I'll accept that, and await some screenshots that better put me at ease. :)


Originally posted by Shadione
FYI, multiple unique races is difficult to do because of game balance issues. Of course, that didn't stop us from doing Impossible Creatures. :)

Then it's not impossible is it? AHAHAHAHAHA! ;)

BYE

[H.B.M.C.]

Originally posted by Unknown<ID>
Btw,hi Mr Spacebattles person ;)

Hmm... someone recognises me. Who may you be, Mr. Unknown. ;)

BYE

[Noir]

Entropy :D

[Maximus Decimus]

i still think that the armies and units are used and played different ways. the diff between a guard lascannon guy and a marine one is that the marine one has armor, moral, combat skill, ballistic skill, etc and u could even go have him beat up a ork or 2 with the but of his lascannon. the ork army is a horde army and will be used diff. if ur making a 40k game what do u want?? do u want them to make up units? give us some suggestions please because it sounds to me like u want them to make up a entirely new base of infantry.

now to chaos u must remember that the warp is strange and what a week in there is may be 1-100-1000-10000 yrs in the real world. one of the stories in the newer WD of fantasy explains this well where the chieftan went into the warp(tzneetch) and what were hours there were weeks in the real world. hey besides the chaos marines have old school doctrine and training and on the warp may make them extremely retarded in cases as side effects may occur.

[DarthFelth]

well i did say depending on how yay look at it :p but i doubt it would make them retarded unless they turned into a chaos spawn as all the gift in the codex dont seem that bad to me :p