Post-CR Vanilla Campaign changes?

[konfeta]

I am noticing a few oddities replaying the original campaign I have not seen before. Not talking just about changed skills.

1. Banner heals a ton less.

2. Invulnerability effects are more unstable, I occasionally have Sergeants die during effects of Rosarius, I Shall Not Fall, and other similar abilities.

3. Certain enemies' damage has been toned down - namely Seer Council and Venom Cannons. I explicitly tested a few months ago that with 99% damage reduction those did around 200 damage, but now they do significantly less.

4. Demolition Pack no longer one shots Carnifexes even if they are right on top of it when it explodes.

5. Some items changed statistics - Terminator suits now have significantly more armor. Dorn's Retribution (a Thunderhammer) lost the self-damage per hit thing.

6. Shields via Iron Halo no longer regenerate energy while on.

7. Drop rates went significantly up. Downright absurdly up. I have successfully collected about 90% of all items that can be dropped. (Too bad still missed a few mid level goodies like the +armor aura Seal and Gabriel's pistol of moar +armor).

[Gorb]

I haven't labbed it, but with regards to Banners - that was a CR change that obviously propagated over to the vanilla Campaign as they share the same base code (Banner heal effect doesn't instaheal for 10 seconds or however long it was before - before it effectively healed all your squads to full health, fast). Same goes for Terminator Armour (maximum armour/damage mitigation was increased; Termie Armour was virtually useless pre-CR because of this limitation)

I'm guessing Demo Pack damage was lowered against anything that isn't buildings, or maybe just reduced damage against vehicles to stop Cyrus taking on a map by himself.

Haven't tested any of this or noticed the other changes, however drop rates used to be a bit hit and miss; you either got loads of wargear or you got virtually none. There was also a lot less in the way of random drops in the vanilla Campaign - the named drops all dropped in a certain order up to a certain point.

[konfeta]

True, but before, in order to get to the point where I stopped getting named Wargear drops it took about 120-140 drops overall. Now it took me 400. There honestly needs to be a balance here - similar green rates and way less grey.

Though the grey spam would totally be fine if we could equip squadmates.

[alucard81]

odd, I am playing through vanilla in Captain diff and people drop like flies while in combat.

BS warriors/VC warriors all pack a punch that meant I need to fall back a little or I will get my squads eaten for breakfast and then some.

[boredsurfin06]

The mines now have a much more potent use against Carnifexes. Sure, they don't outright one-shot them now, but they take a good 80-90% chunk off their health. In fact, during the First Defence of Angel Gate, I placed the mines on 2 of the 3 carnifex spawns, and it made that part of the onslaught waaaaay easier.

I do certainly agree upon some of the enemy units getting damage nerfs, most notably against the Eldar. Whenever an Eldar Defence mission would pop up, I would have a terrible terrible time against them; now, I can wipe the floor with them, albeit barely. Then again, their melee was directed to a Melee Tactician tarkus in termie armour with taunt, so that *may* have worked in my favour.

The Signum and the remote det pack used to be rather lacklustre, and then they got super-buffed. They're actually useful now, and I often swap the remote det pack out with the det charge pack - it's that more potent

Banner heal is pretty fail, and as a result, I haven't found a banner whose stat effects are beneficial enough to warrant the use over the other commander accessories.

Drop rates are WIN, and I'm actually getting gear far more often than before, even if it's bull-yam.

I'm certainly more interested in Dorn's Retribution now that it lost it's self-damage-per-hit trait :D

I did a little bit of amateur math, and I reckon at 67+ armour rating, you see better progression in your damage mitigation Post-CR changes than compared to pre-CR AR-to-damage-mitigation settings. This is assuming of course that the lines of the graphs are point-to-point

I've otherwise not seen any other changes.


In response to alucard81, I'm playing on the Captain level, and although people drop like flies, in most cases I've thankfully avoided most of those situations. I'm assuming you've played the Vanilla campaign at least once before, so I'll avoid a repetition of basic strategies.
However, one thing I have recently learned to do is spamming "To Victory" after getting the "Relentless" trait = Invincibility for a little while after using "To Victory".

[alucard81]

problem is you cannot repeat that with anything that has a proper melee attack.

the FC's invincibility last for like 5 secs before the AGwarriors wake up and eat your face.

worse, trying that stunt with a TBcarnifex is just just.. asking for punishment.

[konfeta]

True, enemy melee damage did seem to go up. Prior to CR, my FC could effortlessly deal with enemy Carnifexes once hitting 99% melee reduction. It no longer seems to be the case, either their damage flat out went up or their damage type was changed so that 99% melee damage reduction isn't actually reducing that much.

Remote Detpacks were fucking amazing before. Did they get buffed to CR's even more absurd levels then? That's like twice the AoE and damage!

[boredsurfin06]

Konfeta: They might have been great before as well, but I feel they could not really compare to the versatility of det charge pack (one-shotting carnifexes, respectable blast radius, etc). Now remote det packs are the number 1 replenishable explosive-type equipment.

Alucard81 (and to a lesser extent konfeta): true, carnifexes are fatal in melee, and to a lesser extent warriors too. The Relentless strategy was only something I realised recently, and it's saved my bacon a couple of times.
With those behemoths, as I had mentioned in my previous post, mines are your friend here. They deal the largest amount of cost-effective damage to the carnifex, in that they are quick and easy to deploy, without resorting to det charge packs and remote det packs.
If you don't use Cyrus, then Avitus would be your next best friend, if you wield a plasma cannon, or better yet a rocket launcher.
I suppose in lieu of the above 2, a combo of Tarkus and Thaddeus would work as well, drawing the ire of the carnifex using Tarkus and Taunt, and whittling away with ol' Thadders
[Edit]...But IIRC, Thule does amazing damage to an approaching carnifex if you spec in Ranged combat to the Hail of Fury trait and Assault Barrage the bastard into the warp. It took out a Boss Carnifex (a la "Monster of Meridian") when it was at least at 50% health...might have done more, I'm not sure (it just emerged from the fog of war, it had no quick reference health bar, and I had orbital bombarded the area it was in)


Also, another change I have at the least realised is that most of the warriors have started roaming around in pairs, instead of individuals. This does impact Cyrus and the Super Sniper Shot strategy a lot, seeing as before it eliminated that Synapse creature utterly; now there is a remnant. This does mean that the Super Sniper shot should be used more wisely, saved ideally for Zoanthropes and their resulting super-backlash.
However, if you equipped a shotgun instead, a Super Shotgun Blast will take out the pairs of Warriors; you could otherwise opt to use a well-placed mine.
Still, backlash is backlash in your favour

[alucard81]

The problem I face with the CR vanilla campaign is that the gear has been weakened by too much almost.

Take the old strat of Thunderhammer n Iron Halo combo. You cannot use that to tank anything even in Sgt. One melee special wipes you clean of energy and the shield.

Banners used to be useful now they are plain useless.

FC in power armor is reduced to using teleport pack or jump pack. Those actually give you a nice stat boost and has proper uses in combat. Port behind the blob, charge em down, Tark lob grenade, blob dead.

There are however a bunch of enemies the campaign loves to throw at you that seem to have received a major buff.

VCwarrior broods. 4 shots is all it takes to kill a max level FC. 6 for Tarkus in termi armor (thats yellow cover reduction lol). Thule eats 6-7 hits. Teddy 3-4, Avitus 3. Safest way to get rid of them was to use Cyrus' blind n bomb combo.

Seer Councils. I find myself cursing them outright at any point when I see them. it is always this squad that out right kills your squads. Fast, spams a knockback and is a melee facemelter. Plus they come in two flavours, jedi swords and spears...

BSwar (lone in campaign) coupled with ravener (devourer) brood. Worse if a VCwar brood trots along. You would want teddy here but teddy is squishy. So squishy, hormagaunts can eat his face. nom nom nom....

Orks are no better. Lootas come in beamy deff gun and normal gun flavour. Hurts a ton and like stay far far away. Tankbustas rockkits... nuff said. It wun be so bad if there were no squad(s) of Nobs with big hammers wanting to chop ur FC.

And I am not even talking abt vehicles, walkers and platforms.

[gimrah]

Can't say I noticed any new problems with any of those squads in primarch. They were always tough. And a straight fight is not usually the way to go.

[boredsurfin06]

Hmm...I used to curse the Eldar (let alone defence missions) BEFORE the CR update; now they are comparatively easier.

Gimrah is right: straight up fights are perilous in the least. In my case, after Tarkus, Cyrus is my next choice in most deployments, and I use him to covertly soften up the enemy...big time.
I can't say I've been having the same problems as you alucard81, but I do admit that, in a straight up fight, things have gotten hairy, especially in the case of enemy melee. I used to run-and-gun most engagements, but on Captain mode it didn't work as well for me. Playing like a sneaky git seems to work well at this level lol
The Iron halo seems to do a lot of nice for me, if not for the energy shield, then (usually) the boosted armour stats / damage-type mitigation it gives. Although I'm saying this because I haven't as yet found anything else worth equipping (I've got 2 term teleporters, but planning on putting term armour for the other guys) :P

I'll have to see if the BS warriors are 'lone wolves' in this case...perhaps there's still enough utility for sniper Cyrus vs. Tyranids :P

[konfeta]

Cyrus will forever be a Flamethrower Marine. I wonder if they nerfed it in CR...

[Gorb]

No idea, I've only recently changed from Sniper Rifles to Shotguns (zomg Shotgun Blast zomg AWESUM).

That said, I tend to keep one of each weapon type on the Bridge.

[Tranc]

I do admit that, in a straight up fight, things have gotten hairy, especially in the case of enemy melee. I used to run-and-gun most engagements, but on Captain mode it didn't work as well for me. Playing like a sneaky git seems to work well at this level lol

I still try to do a straight-up-fight on Captain difficulty, mostly because it seems like I get better drops that way. It took 3 replays, but I think I can manage it most of the time now (exceptions being when the enemy has overwhelming numbers or a carnifex in reserve).

Generally, the key to winning a straightup fight on Captain is to make sure you midigate their damage. This means (for large mobs) that a stun grenade initiates battle so your Force Commander doesn't get shot up while closing. Make sure Avitus is in range and in cover to support. Then if he or the Commander takes too much damage, have Tarkus ready with Tactical Advance and Taunt to draw fire.

If enemy Eldar have heavy weapon platforms, I try to make sure I can take each one out in the first few moments of battle. This means Commander with Thunderhammer/fist rushes one, Thadeus assault jumps in before it can fire, and melta-bombs a second platform, while Cyrus snipers/shotguns a third. If they have more than 3 heavy weapon teams I don't feel bad softening them up with Cyrus pre-battle ;-P

[gimrah]

I don't think fighting style makes any difference to drops. I got 3 drops from one well-placed remote det before. Also from stealth-immolation of nid swarms.

[Skyline Pete]

I've found tarkus and cyrus to both be near totally useless in my Captain campaign.

Melee/tele FC + Avitus is all I ever need. Then putting Avitus into termie armour with an assault cannon and a power fist and things just get easier.

[Tranc]

I've found tarkus and cyrus to both be near totally useless in my Captain campaign.

How do you deal with Carnifexes Skyline Pete?

On Captain difficulty, they usually they kill my Force Commander before my team has done enough damage to bring them down unless

1. I have Cyrus plant a remote detonator along its path of approach so it has less health when it arrives and I can kill it quickly.

2. I have Tarkus kite it using Taunt so everyone else can get free shots at it, thereby weakening it before it turns its attention on my Force Commander.

I would love to find another method; apparently this is what the game is about :)

[konfeta]

Methods I tried:

1. Assault Cannons (both variants), Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons
2. Grenades (they don't do a lot of damage, but work in a pinch)
3. Power Weapons with invulnerability, Termie melee seems to work best overall because squadmates actually contribute decent AV.
4. Normal Detpacks. You *don't have* to put them on Cyrus. I had Teddy rock Detpacks/Blind Grenades until I got him some decent gear.

[Tranc]

Ah, I see, I've never used a missile launcher on them because I can't give up Avitus' heavy bolter in Tyranid missions. I love its suppression!

I have used Terminators in melee (Tarkus) against Carnifexes before, usually in conjunction with the two methods I posted above. I've also used normal demolition packs, as Carnifexes are one of the few creatures too dumb to scatter away from a demolition pack :P

[boredsurfin06]

To the above 2 posters: mines work quite well against carnifexes - they are almost equal to remote bombs against carnifexes

EDIT: I am Mr Mines, aren't I? :slow:

[Nihilm]

In the last few weeks, i finished the vanilla campaign again on primarch difficulty and i got to say i love the new drop-rates they are great, it was so fun collecting the best of all wargear, that i did over 100k campaign score and got that legend achievement(yes i know it's 90k).

The game was only really difficult around the fire prism assault mission and a few missions after, when venom cannon warriors started showing up and seer coucils.
I went for a ranged FC with full will for inspiring shout, A melee tarkus, whom which i maxed out stamina before anything else(except close combat aptitude ofc) to get the i shall not fall, got terminator honours on avitus ASAP cause he owns everything with his assault cannon, also maxed his will for focus mastery and i used thaddeus whom i just used the standard full strength/stamina and rest into will, i decided not to use cyrus, since the game seemed too easy with him and no damian, just cause i don't like him all that much even when he actually seems to be more useful now, as in he doesnt get killed by small arms fire.

Main stratey was to tank everything with tarkus with advance on, and give him energy boosts with inspiring shout, while instagibbing with a HB using FC(yay for not getting to use pointless commadner items) Thaddeus was only there for area of effect(jump, merciless strike) I gave him a termi armor later on cause I am cool like that. Game got ridiculuosly easy later on where i just breezed through missions in like 5-7 minutes.

I actually played it in a way that i only donated wargear that had white text the entire game, so in the end i had like over a 100 weapons/armours etc and there were no more quest awards. It was fun, seemed easier than before, which is suprising, cause the last time i qent through campaign, i soloed through most of the game with cyrus.

[gimrah]

Against carnifexes:
- Termie tarkus. 4 power gloves work well, esp with melee tactician.
- FC with hammer or hammer/shield. Though there is a risk of sync-kill.
- Explosives. Blind grenades.
- Avitus with ML (though only if you know mission will be fex-intensive). Plasma cannon doesn't do much.

Thule can help a bit but he won't last long if he's range-specced (which he always is for me).

[Tranc]

Blind Grenades work on Carnifexes?? That's news to me.

I guess my question of how do you deal with Carnifexes (which was in response to the claim that Tarkus & Cyrus were useless) should have read "how do you deal with Carnifexes and not get anyone killed" ;-) Yes, Tarkus w/ Terminator Power Fists and FC with a Thunderhammer work, but you need Taunt to make sure the Carni focuses on Tarkus and not the FC or Thule. So I see these as all being part of 1 solution. I guess I've made good use of the Rosarius lately (instead of forgetting about it like I would sometimes do before).

I tried out Avitus with a missile launcher recently and was very underwhelmed. Yes, he can kill Carnifexes but is now not nearly as useful against most everything else.

[konfeta]

They work against boss Carnifexes.

[boredsurfin06]

Blind Grenades, eh? Nice nice.

Yeh I'm on my last round of optional missions atm. I've cycled them so much that I'm not even getting anything as a Mission Reward (Was trying to get the Sermon of Steel - the +30 Armour to allies in 17 radius...but it's a level 15 accessory from a Boss drop).
The Mission Rewards are in the +/-2 of current level, so I've got all the top-tier loot, but missing the odd little thing in the not-so-top tiers :stupido:

On to Termie Armours :reporter:

[gimrah]

@Tranc

Yeah, ML is only good against vehicles and fexes. There are one or two missions that make it worthwhile when the briefing says to expect loads of fexes/vehicles (or the boss is a fex/vehicle) but otherwise I wouldn't bother. Becomes more useful in CR with frag missile though.

Otherwise you're right really: it's a case of pile in with everyone with power weapons. Rosarius is helpful if available.

I found particularly in the defence missions, the will be a vehicle in the middle of the penultimate wave: that's the most dangerous moment because the vehicle can disrupt Avitus holding the blob back with NHoD. I use the Rosarius then to melee the vehicle (fex) quickly while under heavy ranged fire. The boss vehicle in the final wave comes right at the back of the wave, essentially unsupported, and is usually not hard therefore.

[konfeta]

Defense vehicles are hilariously easy because you get 4 point and click mine drops. Takes 2 to snipe a vehicle.

[Tranc]

The Mission Rewards are in the +/-2 of current level, so I've got all the top-tier loot, but missing the odd little thing in the not-so-top tiers

I find I get better mid-tier mission rewards by NOT getting extra deployments (unless I need them because I have a backlog of missions which are timing out). This way more optional missions spawn while I'm lower level. If I get too many extra deployments, I end up beating the story missions too fast, and increasing my level before new optional missions become available.

[konfeta]

That bit is completely random it seems. Some games I get a ton of early random missions, others not so much.

[Tranc]

konfeta,

I'm saying optional missions can't spawn in the middle of your extra deployments. E.g., if you gain 1 level per mission and do 3 missions per day, you're only going to have a chance of getting new optional missions every 3 levels. You might get those missions later, but by that time you're level 20 and will miss out on the mid-level wargear.

[konfeta]

I know, but specifically avoiding extra deployments will probably not add up to getting up more gear than not. The RNG is a cruel mistress.

[Tranc]

Well, then I guess we have to agree to disagree :-)

I know for a fact that if I get 3 deployments ever day, I always run out of optional missions and have to progress the story line.

I’d rather do optional missions because they give me mission-reward only wargear (and in some cases boss-drop only wargear) that I would not otherwise get. In comparison, the story missions always occur, always give the same mission reward and they never expire. Doing more story missions only serves to increase my level before I get a chance to milk the optional missions for low level mission rewards.

I agree that I won’t end up with more chaff-dropped wargear.

[konfeta]

The best way to get Wargear I find is simply not trash any and cycle squads to slow down leveling. The drop rate s good enough to basically find 95% of the named Wargear.