for god and country?

[hellion]

reki:


problem is, i think chris, that panthers jessica thread was kinda funny and also a proven fact of the biological universe.

hmm.. this aint been a good week for topics, has it?

never thought id say it, but maybe someone should start a politix or evolution vs creation thread or something.


lets see if i can accomidate, with a bit of sarcasm or satire

as a social institution of eduction, elementrary and middle schools specifically. young people are forced, everyday, either commit blasphemy to their religion, or to say something they truely do not believe in, when saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

its been a very long time since grade school, but i can still remember this one chinese girl who simply cried every day at 9:15 sharp, 5 mins before the daily scheduled group chanting session. and i honestly believe that this girl was scared for life because she was forced to admit to something her religion would not firmly confirm, nor deny. now i don't know what it is like in other parts of America, but should young people with very little sense of self, beforce to pledge their alligance? do we purposly brain wash children at a young age into patriotism? and as far as seperation of church and state, is their legal right to say god in public schools?

(post ment with all humorus intent, but plz feel free to make good points and use better judgement whilst answering)

[Rent-a-Zilla]

I think the Pledge of Allegiance is a form of brainwashing, but my thoughts on patriotism are a little more complicated (I think it is a bad thing, but its not easy to explain why without offending people).

More to follow...

Zilla out.

[Vaarok]

Mormons think God inspired the constitution.

[IgnusDei]

freedom this, freedom that....

freedom is actually a very funny word. in speeches and songs, people just include that one word and crowds start standing up and cheer. I usually sit down when that happens.

Why? because we don't live in a society that is "free" if we were free, we wouldn't have to pledge allegiance to a country. we could live outside th system of work for money, money for food. We could live outside any system Try doing any of that: the LAW and its enforcers will force you back into it.

So it's no surprise to me when a pledge of alegiance seems to limit one's own freedom. We don't live in a society that allows such a thing. It merely makes us think we do.

[danger]

I didnt bother reading this thread at all, beyond the title. I can some it all up even without reading it. crap. crap.. more crap, piled upon more crap, mixed in with a little y'know what? yes. crap. without further ado I leave you with my words of wisdom for the day, and what has brought me to this thread...God Save the queen, she's ugly. Go USA!

http://members.aol.com/Holimuser/Flag50star.gif

g'day.

[mulletberg]

hey sup the stars on row 5 SUCKASS

[Vaarok]

True freedom lies in being unfettered in your actions so long as those actions do not interfere with the freedoms of others.

We're lawmongers, cause stupid people need structure.

[TheBob]

I honestly think the US is a peice of crap and I couldn't care less wrather god exists or not. I just say it anyway and try not to make waves.

[Maverick_3058]

On the radio last week, the morning show in question I was listening too had a debate over whether one should recite the pledge of allegiance while alone, at home, watching a sporting event. I'm for some degree of patriotism, but not the amount of jingoistic bullshit nearly sickens me. In my opinion, Americans are taking things far too seriously with their nationalism, to the point where any change, or any initiative to change the current system is percieved to be a mortal threat. Fascism seems to be a knockin', hot damn!

I respect my country enough that I'll stand up for the national anthem at, say, sporting events, but I will not put my hand over my heart or badly lip-synch along like the conventional blind moron(pity I don't have a cap to doff), because I frankly disapprove of its message.

Canadians have a better souding anthem anyways because they are not dolts who attempt to make a song out of a poem. gj USA

[Langy]

TheBob is right. The US is crap. Then again, Humanity is a giant ugly pile of the stuff, with the US being the best crap of the bunch. Now, if I ruled the world, the crap would be better. It would be polished. It would be perfumed. It would be good crap. But, of course, I don't. Which sux.

Anyways, nobody in my school actually recites the pledge. They, instead, flick off the flag and sit down. Same thing with god.

[Maverick_3058]

You must not be familiar with Henry David Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience", and the basic democratic principles that your own country was founded on...
...but then again, basic grammar is beyond your reach.

[zenogias]

I almost wish I was back in public school against so I can stand up in class every day and loudly proclaim my pledge of allegiance:

I pledge allegience
To the flag,
Of the United States of America,
And to the republic,
For which it stands:
One nation,
Under the Christian deity
(the previous line added in the 1950s to appease the prayet-in-school faction)
Easily divisible,
With liberty and justice
For the rich.

Oh, and Danger, StarHawk, the founding father didn't like living in the British American colonies so you know what they did? Certainly not "GET THE HELL OUT" (as StarHawk so eloquently put it).

Nope, they, like the women, African-Americans, migrant farm workers, oppressed factory workers, and those lovable hippies after them decided inside of shutting up or getting out to get off their asses and CHANGE THINGS!!!!

Therefore, by telling those of us who have a problem with the U.S. to get out, you are showing yourself as a traitor to your country by betraying the very ideals it was founded on.

So get the hell out of our country, you filthy traitors.

[IgnusDei]

honestly, the US scares me. too much diversity, too many rival ethnics, too many cultures that clash all in a well militarized package. Lots of strange paradoxes too: you can buy a shotgun at wal-mart, but try to find a single of prodigy's "smack my bitch up" and they're gonna ask you to leave. the US also houses several Neo-fascists...i find it Ironic, considering the events of 1939-45...

Yes...scary as hell.

[El Russo]

patriotism is implied by being a law-abiding member of a country. it does not need to be said or drilled into a person as in said chant. patriotism is ultimately a bad thing; it encourages xenophobia (he is afghanistani and thus must be evil) and ignorance of other cultures (they r not christian and they do not follow capitalism thus they must be stupid).

for example; country A is attacked by country B -> clamour for revenge (because of anger and hate) and demonistation of all who oppose it including law-abiding members of that country who do not think the best way of dealing with violence is to propogate it -> country B attacks country A -> same thing happens there. doesn't matter who started it as both are as bad as each other. remind anyone of anything. yes, palestine and israel.

what is all this US bashing? ok, they seem like war-mongering OTT nationalistic racists but there is an element of this in every society. the majority of americans r decent people who live in a country with (what used to be) great ideals. they have strayed from the path of freedom they have walked (before anyone else) because capitalism and patriotism has induced a core of greedy self-righteous patriots to come to the fore amid the current world terrorism crisis.

[StarHawk]

Uh first off I am not xenophobic or racist I have had many black friends in my life [sadly some of them moved and I moved so we parted ways :-(] I have a spanish american uncle and two cousins not to mention their LARGE family so Patriotism does NOT inspire racism or hatred it inspires loyalty which must be beyond you.

I love how people constantly bash the U.S. but still dont mind taking money from us, or from using American soldiers to defend their interests and their people its just friggin stupid.

And yes if you hate this country soo damn much that you whine about everything it does but your to stupid/unimportant/lazy to do anything to try and change it GET OUT OF THE DAMN COUNTRY! and wait until someone with the Balls to actually do something comes in and replaces your petty bitching.

You are supposed to repsect your country you people seem to wish you ruled the world and every country followed your own foolish ideals and beleifs. If the United States is so damn bad why do so many people every year try and come into this country? You people seem to hate this country yet do you go around trying to change things for the better NO you moan and cry and act like a bunch of spoiled children who should have been bitch slapped into Cuba then see how much they'd like the US.

As I said I do not agree with everything the United States does or has done [I.E. Helping every third world nation that asks considering most of them tend to turn into anti american scum that kill the US soldiers that once fed them cloathed them and protected them. Somolia, anyone Afghanistan, many others.]
I dont agree with the Vietnam war if you ask me it was stupid and served no purpose beyond killing 63,250 american boys.
I dont agree with many policies but I dont go bashing the whole damn country over a few errors. Everything has problems but the U.S. as a Nation [not as a group of people] is one of the most selfless nations out there. YOu dont see Britain or China or Russia or any other major powers doing anything for their neighbors all they seem to know how to do is bash the United States Government and its citizens. Its foolishness.

Oh and on the topic of things I dont like the US government pulling are That SSSC act that would forbid us from building our own comps and many other things that we consider freedomes. As I said if the government dares to start dictating crap like this AND WORSE! if it were to go to the point of where they make it LAW that you have to get that new ID chip that tracks your every movement when stuck into you via a needle that can hide in any flue shot or Hep vaccine shot. I would be more then willing to help in getting rid of THAT GOVERNMENT not the whole country I mean in all Honesty I like this country even if its government pisses me off or scares the hell out of me sometimes.

[EchoEffect]

[I.E. Helping every third world nation that asks considering most of them tend to turn into anti american scum that kill the US soldiers that once fed them cloathed them and protected them. Somolia, anyone Afghanistan, many others.]

The US went into Somalia to protect its oil industry, not to help the people.

The USA went into Afghanistan the first time to fight the USSR, not to help the people. It has gone in again to protect its own interests (howver justified they may be) NOT to help the afghan people. Frankly, before September 11th, i doubt many Americans knew where Afghanistan was.



I dont agree with the Vietnam war if you ask me it was stupid and served no purpose beyond killing 63,250 american boys.

Along with thousands upon thousands of vietnamise, but who cares about them.



Everything has problems but the U.S. as a Nation [not as a group of people] is one of the most selfless nations out there

:lol:



You dont see Britain or China or Russia or any other major powers doing anything for their neighbors

Yes you do, and Britain is hardly a major power.

StarHawk, you personify everything that people hate about America.

[StarHawk]

Name one thing Britain has done for the World that does not involve trying to forge an empire? [laugh]

As for the selfless part it is true the USA helps alot of nations in the world many of those nations then turn around and bite us in the ass.

The somolia thing LOL I think you have that confused with Kuwaite somolia has NO OIL! the United States went in there to actually help the people of that country and to attempt to make the country a better place [I.E. not having dozens of clans that like to blow the shit out of one another] :smash:

As for Vietnam Let me think about this It killed Americans for a useless cause vs it bascially fragged most of Vietnams male population. Gee now do you honestly think I dont care about the Vietnamese I just find it stupid that half the country asked for help then turned around and ran away everytime the met the enemy. And the poor average person DID NOT WANT US THERE which is fully understandable I mean they have a saying "What good is it to stop a robber if you destroy your own home." and that fits very well to what actually happened in Vietnam it was a useless war fought for no real or defined goals.

And as for Britain not being a major power YES THEY SURE AS HELL ARE they have one of the strongest economic systems in the world [that is one of the reasons their Pound is worth two US Dollars.] Also they have the worlds largest navy [which is not exactly small pitens considering if you have a battlefleet you have a true world power [unless your fleet is like fifty or sixty years out of date]] They certainly could provide aid to third world nations or poor nations in Europe at the very least THEY DONT unless its to try and bring them into the Eruopean Union [which is really creepy if you ask me but thats a totally differant discussion].

And China :flame: they are to damn buisy slaughtering their unborn children and any people who refuse to follow the Communist edict to help any other nation.

As for Russia you'd be right about them not being a major power I mean they are to busy blowing the crap out of old republics and trying to keep together a military thats in shambles to help themselves muchless another country.

I dont hate other countries or other races [I dont like some but its not because of the color of their skin its more or less because of their traditions] Like Spain and their killing bulls for fun in my oppinion that is rather nasty but lets not get into that.

The United States HAS MAJOR ERRORS!!! As does every nation on Earth.

LOL and as for me personifying everything people hate about us Americans. Lets see hows that because I state the fact that Europeans are to buisy making fun of us to help anyone. Or the fact that Russia doesnt do anything either?
I am proud of my Country but I readily admit it has major flaws but it also does more good for other countries then any other country out there and you must admit that.
I mean I am all the way admiting there are errors in the United States so how then am I personifying everything people hate about Americans?

[ceejayoz]

Name one thing Britain has done for the World that does not involve trying to forge an empire? [laugh]
The exact same could be said for the US. The US just makes a commercial empire.

The somolia thing LOL I think you have that confused with Kuwaite somolia has NO OIL!
Somalia had an oil industry before the civil war and the subsequent US intervention. It's still a strategic area, since instability there threatens US oil supplies.

And as for Britain not being a major power YES THEY SURE AS HELL ARE they have one of the strongest economic systems in the world [that is one of the reasons their Pound is worth two US Dollars.]
Their economy is much smaller than that of the US. The US economy is larger than the entire European economies combined. The pound is worth 1.3 dollars or so, and that's because that's how the exchange rate was set, dolt. Not because it's a bigger economy. There's over 100 yen to the dollar - yet Japan is one of the top 7 economies in the world. Exchange rate has nothing to do with economic power.

Also they have the worlds largest navy [which is not exactly small pitens considering if you have a battlefleet you have a true world power [unless your fleet is like fifty or sixty years out of date]]
Heh, not true. China has the larget navy in size, whereas the US has the largest navy power-wise. The British navy may have been the largest navy during the beginning of World War II, but not since then.

p.s. navy != world power - look at countries like Germany and Japan, who have massive economies but no/almost no navy.

They certainly could provide aid to third world nations or poor nations in Europe at the very least THEY DONT unless its to try and bring them into the Eruopean Union [which is really creepy if you ask me but thats a totally differant discussion].
Er... where the heck are you pulling this from? Oh, yeah, your ass. Like the other stuff. Forgot. England has no interest in bringing poor countries into the EU - the EU only wants the strong economies, duh.

I dont hate other countries or other races [I dont like some but its not because of the color of their skin its more or less because of their traditions] Like Spain and their killing bulls for fun in my oppinion that is rather nasty but lets not get into that.
I'm sure the Spanish aren't too fond of our tradition of driving huge SUVs and polluting the world.

[Langy]

Starhawk - Research your stuff first. The US is one greedy mofo. We went into Vietnam not to help the Vietnamese or anything like that but to stop the communists. The people of the time hated commies. They hated them like we hate the Taliban and terrorists now, maybe moreso. We attacked North Vietnam because they were communist and the people thought that if communism could get a hold on some areas around the world it would spread. Of course, they were wrong.

And the US sucks. Britain sucks. Germany sucks. Humanity, on a whole, sucks.

I thought up a quote yesterday. It fits this discussion well. Here it is:

Humanity is colored in shades of black.
-Langy, the Mutant Dwarf

[EchoEffect]

Smeg, spent ages writing a reply, and it fecked up and i lost it.

StarHawk: What Ceejay and Langy said.

Britain started the Boy Scouts movement, and that wasn't an attempt at world dommination....wait.....hmm...
:err:

I like the way you managed to be so smug, yet so wrong at the same time.

[Walker]

There were several millions of Vietnamese killed, not thousands. And that's the official numbers, so most of the civilian genocide committed by the heroic American boys will never be included.

EDIT: Are you a joke, starfury?

[StarHawk]

Well Langy that is a dim point of veiw at the least.

And Ceejay you seem to miss something I FREAKING WELL SAID THE ONLY COUNTRIES THEY HELP THEY ARE TRYING TO BRING INTO THE EU!!!! AS IN THAT COUNTRY HAS A RESOURCE THEY WOULD LIKE SO THEY "Help" IT until they preasure it to join the EU. If you look at Europe as it is going it is quite creepy [at least to me but you guys would not really care why I thought it creepy.]

I dont think China has the largest navy in the world or at least not a surface fleet. I still think its Britain because the Navy is in their blood and is still their lifes blood of defense. You may be right or not I'm not shure but I really think Britain has the largest navy ship wise [maybe not powerwise but ship wise].

Britain and Europe are just creepy to me at the moment for what they are doing I dont really want to get into that to much because it would cause a worse arguement then what is already going on.

Somolia is not that strategic or we never would have left I mean the UN had a considerable force there if it was really that strategic we would have stayed [oh wait wasn't Clinton in charge then that wussy little basterd never stood his ground in a fight that draft dodging scum ball mother fuc.... [trails off in various anti clinton slurs] Anyway if it is so valuable other countries would have stayed. You're right about the oil part [looked that hole thing up on the internet] but I dont think its that strategic anymore. If you have further info on how strategic it is now adays please send I would love to read it. Same thing if you have sizes and comparison of China/Britain/US navy. I mean I know that today the United States navy only has roughly 350 warships in service including I think with the Truman about 8 carriers, and only 4,000 fighters in use. Which aint as much as the government was hoping for. In the seventies I think it was the government was shooting for a navy of around 600 surface combat ships including 16 carriers and 10,000 fighters and other aircraft but do to budget cuts and the like we have a force just over half that in the ships department and just under half in the planes department.

Oh and big whoop dee do Britain started the boy scouts Germany took it up as did many other countries [no I dont meant the Hitler Youth] but yeah it probobly was an attempt at world domination[wheres my damn laughing face???" anyway [Laughing weirdly]

Anyway Sorry for defending my country's honor [all beit I may have been misinformed about the exchange rate vs streangth/weakness of that nations economy. But I really dont think I'm wrong about fleet streangths]

And Langy no matter what oppinion people have on what started Vietnam it was a big ass mistake for the US to get involved in those poor people's national affairs unless they were being tortured or something. And there were plenty of genocides on both sides so STFU about the Heroric American Boys shit they pulled plenty of bad stuff yes but so did the Vietnamise BOTH SIDES WERE THE BAD GUYS is the way I look at Nam.

[StarHawk]

Oh and CeeJay I dont like that crappy SUV driving bunch of jerks either. I mean the only good reason to OWN an SUV is if you go OFFROAD which most of the things cant do anyway so its just a matter of "Look at Me I have money YEAH!!" and crap like that.

[TheBob]

All this along with that new computer law is ticking me off. A propose that we all pitch in $1,000 US and buy a small island somewere nice, and all it "Isla Reliquia".

[EchoEffect]

I FREAKING WELL SAID THE ONLY COUNTRIES THEY HELP THEY ARE TRYING TO BRING INTO THE EU!!!!

the EU is not interested in bringing poor countries into the EU, to join the EU a country has to be able to contribute to the union.....and one assumes, be in Europe.


I still think its Britain because the Navy is in their blood and is still their lifes blood of defense

He's right there, often i find my self fighting the urge to jump into a rowing boat and paddle around the local lake, shouting "Ahoi there matey!" at passers by; as well as attempting to sink swans with rocket propelled acorns.


I really think Britain has the largest navy ship wise

Unfortunatly you blew it with that, because thats just wrong.


The point about Veitnam is that yes both sides commited terrible crimes. But if the USA is such a force for good as you say, it shouldn't have. Just because "they" did it, doesn't mean its ok for you to.

I would like you to tell us what your resevations about the EU & the UK are actually.

[StarHawk]

You people dont seem to get it I am all the way saying the USA has made some big ass mistakes it certainly is not the mega uber godlike kingdome kind of thing it is a Human controled country and we humans screw things up.

As for my reservations about the EU I really dont think you would like to hear them being they have something to do with what you guys would consider BS mytholodgy so if you press further I will tell you but it would almost definatly start a nasty argeument.

Uh what is that guy talking about with Star Fairy?

Oh and I hope your not being sarcastic about the Navy thing because Britain is a big ocean loving country they were one of the first nations to get the Ship of the Line and other cool nautical instruments. Inluding a time peace that could work on a wooden warship.

[EchoEffect]

No, I am deadly serious, I have racks of acorns in my bedroom, and swans are -ing scared of me.

Nono, I want to hear, sounds interesting.

[Langy]

SH - Britain is an island. OF COURSE THEY GOT NAVAL STUFF FIRST!

However, they also are a SMALL COUNTRY. Well, compared to the US and Russia and the like. They have a small navy when compared with either Russia's (old) navy or China's (rusty) navy. China has one HELL of a lot of ships. China's population is something around 2 billion, so of course they have population control there. It's required. You'd want it, too, if there were so many people in your country.

Also, you just basically contradicted yourself completely with the 'US made lots of mistakes' thing. Sure, you said it made lots of mistakes but you were also saying that the US helps people. It doesn't. It helps itself and that is it. The US is founded in greed, which is why it is capitalistic and has such a big military. Militaries are needed to control your investments, and that is all that the US has ever done. They never go out to help people. They go out to help themselves.

And, yes, my quote is rather dark. That is the point of it. And it is completely true.

[StarHawk]

Well the USA has done good I mean no matter what ills you may say about it it HAS done considerable good in its time.

And the reason I think the EU is a little creepy is that it does kind of fit what loads of people are saying about the book of Revelations. In that book it kind of makes it sound alot like the European Union is one of the big signs of the well the end of the world. If you want to know how go read the book yourselves I'm not saying read the whole bible [for those of you whom I know for shure would not.] But it does kind of fit you know I mean there are 10 major powers in the EU and the Book of Revelations mentions something about ten crowns. Well as I said it's just really creepy how it fits so well for all I know the bible was talking about something like ten solar systems or ten galaxies far in our future I'm just saying its kind of creepy in my oppinion the way it fits so dang well. And how according to many people the Anti-Christ will be from Italy [I heard why somewhere but I forgot sorry why many think he will come from Italy sorry].

Well now another reason I find the EU creepy is it seems a little bit like Europe is heading torwards one big continental alliance and no offense but those tend to end badly for all parties involved.

Now PLEASE PLEASE dont start a flame war about what I said about the EU its just personal oppinion and you must admit that if you've read Revelations its kind of creepy how well it fits. And I mean Continental empires/alliances tend to end badly they either become power hungry maniacs or they run out of money and collapse into decadence and decay.

[Langy]

Have you ever heard of NATO, Starhawk? It's the North American Trade Organization or something along those lines. Basically, it means that all of the countries in North America are allied. So far, has this been a bad thing? No. The EU is like a more powerful NATO. And, I must say, one damned good idea.

In case you didn't know, '10 crowns' could refer to ANYTHING. That's how 'prophets' get to be 'prophets'. They make wild predictions that make no sense but could be interpreted to make them make sense in many different ways. Don't bother reading the bible for your forcasts. Horoscopes are exactly the same way. They simply are not real or could be interpreted in so many ways they don't have even the slightest possibility of being accurate for what you want it to say.


And the USA has not really done much good at all for other countries. Sure, we're currently fixing up Afganistan, but that is just a political situation that is bridled by our want for revenge. It has nothing to do with actually helping them.

[IgnusDei]

Gee starhawk you're more redundant than i am :lol:

Can i ask you something? Just what did the US do that's so righteous and selfless, in an international point of view? Let's have it.

And i swear, if it's one of those propaganda posters....

[StarHawk]

Well like I said helping just about every third world nation that comes along begging for food and money we support. So thats from the international point of veiw.

LOL North Atlantic Trade orginization LOL Its North Atlantic Treaty Orginization. Ever hear of SATO Its the South Atlantic Treaty Orginization. And the differance between them and the EU is that htey are not forming into one government using one currency the EU is.

And none of those only had ten major powers LANGY! Like I said the EU fits better then any other National or International power yet so :p and quit arguing against everything in the bible Langy people are allowed to have their own oppinions without the need to have you or anyone else constantly bitching about how fake the bible is I beleive it is true many things fit very well to things that have happened or many things that WILL mark my words WILL happen. If you dont like my religion fine just quit being so damned annoying about it thank you.:flame: I mean I put up with anti Christain sentiments every day I dont need it from someone who I dont even know in real life okay.

P.S. And before you say something like "WE could get along without you preaching to us." I am not preaching he asked why I thought it was creepy I told him why I thought it was creepy and why I think it is rather doomed to fail. Eventually Nato, Sato, and the UN will also fail the UN is going down already.

[Maverick_3058]

Originally posted by StarHawk
Well like I said helping just about every third world nation that comes along begging for food and money we support. So thats from the international point of veiw.
Bullshit!
Explain the thousands of underaged workers in sewatshops across the globe doing the 10-cents-a-day boogie while their American employers are pulling exponentially larger amounts by the second. We also manage to irrationally loathe communism while allowing the capitalist excesses that brought it to the forefront.
Some say America's a progressive nation, but it's still almost the exact same picture as a century ago, except worldwide.

p.s. Don't want to take shit about your religion? Don't press it upon others, particularly since you don't even know them in real life.

[StarHawk]

Sweatshops are shut down as quickly as possible when found. We do help most third world nations that ask for help for many reasons 1. It looks good on your resume, 2 We are supposed to be good guys. OR so Im told.
Its buisnesses that use sweatshops and thats why many of those are shut down.


P.S. mav you Jackass if you bothered listening first off I did not push my religion on him I simply stated that the EU fit very well into what the book of Revelations said. He asked why I thought the EU was creepy I told him now STFU and dont blab about something like that when it is not even related to ANYTHING I said about Revelations. I am not blabing to you about "Your going to hell you bunch of heathen scum." or anything like that THAT would be pushing my religion on you I simply stated what MY beleifs were You know freedome of religion is something this nation is supposed to have and it was once founded on Christian beleifs like it or not MAV and it was much better when it was because parents actually taught their children values and morals.

[IgnusDei]

"oh...we help 3rd world nations and shit..."

That answer ain't specific, please elaborate. give me a more precise situation.

And i'm not 100 percent sure of this, but isn't america maintaining the third world debt?

[Langy]

As far as I know, America's maintaining it's own 2 trillion dollar debt rather well, and so doesn't need the help of other nations to pile their debts on them. So, no, I don't think we are helping all 3rd world nations.

SH - Sweatshops are shut down IN THE US. NOT in Taiwan and the like. Why do you think just about everything is made in China/Taiwan?

And I DID say 'or something like that' about what NATO stood for. The hell if I can remember what it is.

I was NOT talking about your bible stuff when I was talking about NATO. I was talking about how NATO has not and probably won't ruin every nation that belongs to it.

I also never asked you to tell me why you think the EU is creepy. Don't say I did.

And for the love of your own god, please stop flaming everyone that contradicts you while remaining civil! I haven't bashed you OR your religion yet in this thread, and neither has Mav. When I was saying that you shouldn't trust in what the Bible predicted I specifically said that it was written in such a way that you can interpret it to mean just about anything. Sure, it might have been written with the correct stuff in mind, but the way it is now you can say the ten crowns referred to Hitler's ten top SS guys or something. It doesn't help when your things are that vauge, as then they have a 100% possibility of happening. Sure, they might not all be EXACTLY how they are said in the bible, but they might be. It COULD be the end of the world. Personally, I don't care. I've had a good life so far, and the end of the world won't really effect it that much.

[Tronno]

SH, you are preaching. You're also making various random unsupported statements based on your political opinions and your limited contact with the rest of the world. Let me elaborate:

I think the EU is a little creepy ... it was creepy and why I think it is rather doomed to fail
And how according to many people the Anti-Christ will be from Italy [I heard why somewhere but I forgot sorry why many think he will come from Italy sorry]
I still think its Britain because the Navy is in their blood and is still their lifes blood of defense
I just think the US has some of the more acceptable flaws then others

Do some research. Come up with valid claims and the arguments to support them. Then you can come back and we can have a nice, friendly discussion.

P.S. Not everyone here is Christian, dude. Like I said, try basing your arguments on fact, not belief/religion.

[sajuukar]

Wow, this is contravertial (if that's how it's spelled...) allright!

IMHO, as long as you are free to do w/e you want, itz all good. If you aren't, then it's time to start complaining, starting revolutions, and such. I'm pretty sure everyone here lives in some sort of republic/democracy, right?

If no, complain away... :D

:angel:

[Maverick_3058]

Originally posted by StarHawk
Sweatshops are shut down as quickly as possible when found. We do help most third world nations that ask for help for many reasons 1. It looks good on your resume, 2 We are supposed to be good guys. OR so Im told.
As usual, your argument fails. You been told a real load, no? American based companies like Nike have their hands in Uncle Sam's pants as well as dozens of sweatshops in countries like China. The sage and beneficial United States has also done so much good for our Latin American cousins thanks to our tendency to depose democratically-elected leaders who do not like our wonderous economic subversion policy and replace them with jackbooted thugs and murderers who do!


Originally posted by StarHawk
P.S. mav you Jackass if you bothered listening first off I did not push my religion on him I simply stated that the EU fit very well into what the book of Revelations said. He asked why I thought the EU was creepy I told him now STFU and dont blab about something like that when it is not even related to ANYTHING I said about Revelations. I am not blabing to you about "Your going to hell you bunch of heathen scum." or anything like that THAT would be pushing my religion on you I simply stated what MY beleifs were You know freedome of religion is something this nation is supposed to have and it was once founded on Christian beleifs like it or not MAV and it was much better when it was because parents actually taught their children values and morals.
If you don't want people to contradict what you believe in("onos other opinions my head hurts111"), don't bring it up as an argument; You invited it upon yourself, so don't bitch about it. Just because they have a differing opinion, one that they can actually rationalize in an argument, doesn't mean they should bend over for you; If you're going to throw a punch to start a fight, you should at least bother to connect and follow up, fs. Nor should you attempt to use something strictly subjective in arguments that use actual reason.
gl bringing that knife to the gunfight.

The Founding Fathers were deists, numbnuts. They were blasphemous in the eyes of the church, and the mention of this "God" fellow is notably absent from some of their great works, such as the Constitution. Like it or not, the blind, reactionary philosophy you espouse is folly, and will certifiably destroy either this nation, or indeed the world. The concept that America is "a Christian nation" is not only a lie, but the very principle is distinctly...un-American.
Schooling you further, here's the First Amendment, by the way:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
As flattered as I am by the insinuation, I'm not your government.

[Shin]

"Christian" means many different things to many different people.

While some definitions are good...
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9709/mother.teresa/

Some are just loopy.
http://www.balaams-ass.com/

The idea of patriotism has been perverted though the ages. It is now most often used to manipulate people into willingly serving the interests of the powerful.

I leave you with quotes:

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
--Samuel Adams

"The rescue of drowning men is ... a duty worth dying for, but not worth living for. It seems to me that all political duties (among which I include military duties) are of this kind. A man may have to die for our country: but no man must, in any exclusive sense, live for his country. He who surrenders himself without reservation to the temporal claims of a nation, or a party, or a class is rendering to Caesar that which, of all things, most emphatically belongs to God: himself."
--C.S. Lewis

"Every nation ridicules other nations -- and all are right."
--Arthur Schopenhauer

[mecha]

sorry to bring such diabolical things into your happy little world of xenophobia and country name chanting but...

The european union started with 6 members and had 10 members between 1981 and 1986, it now has 15 and is considering the addition of numerous eastern and south eastern european countries. I imagine many alliances go through a period of having 10 members, I'm sure your united states had 10 members once, if only for the time it took the 11th state to sign up!

you're gonna say that there may be 15 but there are 10 major powers aren't you? so predictable :( There are probably 3 major powers in the union, germany, france and the uk. gg though

[Dukath]

USA is christian? hmm weird, every time someone in the US uses his religion to justify one or anotehr action or a reason no to act its always a quote from the OLD testament. Never the new testament. While christianity is actually different from the old testament. OT = venguefull god, NT = loving, forgiving god. OT = eye for an eye, NT = turn the other cheek (spelling). The USA (government and thus all who support it) worships the dollar as a god, not god him/herself.

The real problem people have with the USA is not its ideals. Its the double standards. Iraq is not allowed to have weapons and needs to accept international observers to see how many they have. But don't even think about asking the same from the usa. Its national security! Usa is angry at china cause they export weapons to "rogue" states, but at the same time usa keeps selling high tech weapons to that rogue chinese province. The taleban get punished for supporting a terrorist organisation, but at this moment the usa still supports several rebel/terrorist groups around the world and is actively trying to overthrow a couple of governments. USA is pressing all around the world for FREE TRADE. But at the same time they impose heavy import taxes on foreign steel to protect their own steel industry.

And then you wonder why every action by the US is considered suspicious all around the world.

PS: i know thta is most of the USA interventions there was some moral reason to intervene. But that only seems to fool the american public itself, it doesnt fool the rest of the world. america needs an external enemy or it will collapse on itself. And in that matter 11-09-01 was a dream scenario for Bush, while a nightmare for all people involved.

[ceejayoz]

Alright, lets get rid of this notion of the US being a "Christian" nation once and for all.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
James Madison - 1785

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
John Adams, writing to Thomas Jefferson

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
Thomas Jefferson - 1813

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
Benjamin Franklin (ono, blasphemy!)

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The Treaty of Tripoli, signed 1796 and approved by the Senate in 1797... John Adams ratified it that year


Okay, how about we stop saying bullshit about the founding fathers wanting this to be some Christian fundamentalist state now, eh? :p

[Rent-a-Zilla]

Screw the Founding Fathers anyway; they are not the disciples of some bizarre "Americanity".

Americans should be able to decide their own destiny.

[Harmanoff]

This thread needeth a random post to twarth the coming of the Pointless Discussion(tm)!

http://www.halo-zone.com/images/heart.gif

I lurve you all, i really do. :square:

Now let's instead discuss where the image of the heart originates from. I think it has something to do with buttocks..

[StarHawk]

Actually no I was not going to say IT ONLY HAS TEN MAJOR POWERS but it still fits rather well and all :-) I just said thats why I thought it creepy.
And actually Numbnuts it started with thirteen colonial states in the Confederation there were never only ten to my knowledge.

And I am not afraid of Europe ever "Standing up to the USA" IMHO it will eventually happen no nation ever lasts forever and no world power ever will last forever. Why you may ask heres why we humans have this bad tendency to enjoy the destruction of really really big things people sort of like watching something big fall apart. AKA Roman Empire, British Empire, French Empire [if you could ever really call it that] Are all really big parts of history not only for their lives but for their deaths. And if you ask me the USA on its current road is going the way of Rome because in recent years its on a moral decline just like Rome before it fell. And no I AM NOT SAYING the only reason Rome fell was because of immoral behavior. Rome fell for many reasons that we all know.
But when a moral state of a nation starts to decline the people grow decadent and self absorbed and eventually they just dont care if their country falls. Do I think the EU will destroy the USA some day maybe but if it happens the EU would be almost certain to die sortly after because a war would cost them ALOT of men and ALOT of money and then vultures would start circleing and BOOM! bye bye EU. But if it is not the EU that destroys the USA and the USA lasts for milennia then I wont really care cause I will be long dead. I mean who's to say what the future holds for the nations we currently know today for all we know the EU and USA will join in some odd kind of mega super power [the USA was is not allowed in the EU cause of our death penalties if that goes away we may join the EU if its allowed] I mean come on guys dont make it sound like I am a racist xenophobic maniac cause I find something creepy.


And JSYK I was not thinking about the "Founding Fathers" at all I was thinking about the Pilgrims who in most respects are our real "Founding Fathers" and they were Puritain [sp?} Although I personally think Puritainism is a little overboard it is an older denomination of Christianity. And yes many of the Founding Fathers were Christian not all but many.

[Mac_Bug]

Okay so what?

Did those who found the US of A believe in God or not?

See up till now I thought you go to hell if you don't believe in God, so would that in fact make it 'you can believe in any damn religion you like on our lands, but you are going to hell if its not our god'?

ANd whats with this oaths in court, swearing on the bible, mention of God on money and the pledge of allegiance ? (which I had to recite for a year, except I've never actually figured out what all the words were so I just murmurered).

Has there ever been a president who didn't go to church? Will there ever be a president who believes in Allah?

[Walker]

Topic = God and Country

It's a funny thing that:

While the USA, officially, is against dogmatising it's youth, population or otherwise supporting religion, it wholeheartedly does...

...Britain, which is constitutionally (as much as we have one) bound to teach its youth Christianity and support that religion, doesn't.

EDIT: No stardork, America can't join the EU...because it's not in Europe... did you know that? Do you know there's a large place called Canada on your northern border? Do you know why the EU is, at all? Or is it an Apocalyptic military alliance that plans to take over the world?

One thing that strikes me from reading your posts is the wonderfully naive, black n white way you view things. Talking about "losing men" and "nations falling" and "moral corruption". Did you learn about the world from a book called "Global Relations 101", or are you just, say, 13?

[eadipus]

the US is a christian state in the same way that the rest of the western world is. its laws are based on the bible.

right now though, i would be deeply ashamed to be american. the steel thing. after kyoto you thought they would have learnt, but this time people are getting serious. the EU is going for a "whatever you do to us, we'll do to you" approach so perhaps your pretty little government will learn that they can't just do what they want.

also, patriotism is a flawed ideal. you harp on about your wonderous freedom and how the US is so rich and powerful yet, i'm guessing, most people here have done nothing towards this. you are taking pride in what other people have achieved.

[EchoEffect]

the USA can't join the EU right now because it is not in Europe, amoung other things.

However I can see a point where being in Europe is not needed to join the EU. The name "EU" might become a bit redundent, but it would be the same orginization.

That main reason why the USA couldn't be int he EU, is probably becuase the EU wouldnt WANT it to be. If it were, it would be hte domminant power in the alliance, and would end up controling most of its affaires. At least at the moment there is not one domminatiing power (although the big three countries do exert a large influence, they are rarely on the same side in arguments)

[ceejayoz]

Well now another reason I find the EU creepy is it seems a little bit like Europe is heading torwards one big continental alliance
Oh no, we can't have that. That's really creepy. Wait, that's exactly what the United States is...

[ceejayoz]

Did those who found the US of A believe in God or not?
They (for the most part) believed in a higher power, but despised organized religion.

[mecha]

Actually no I was not going to say IT ONLY HAS TEN MAJOR POWERS but it still fits rather well and all :-) I just said thats why I thought it creepy.
No, no it doesn't fit well at all, did you actually read what i said?

And actually Numbnuts it started with thirteen colonial states in the Confederation there were never only ten to my knowledge.
Ah no, you didn't, i said it probably only had 10 in the few seconds between the 10th and 11th signing, read what you are responding to next time.

So basically nothing you have said so far has any basis in reality, it's people like you that give a country a reputation for ignorance about outside affairs. You complain about people criticising some of the actions of your country yet you go further and label entire regions as the work of the devil based on your ignorance of basic facts.

As for the patriotism issue I think Hermann Goering had a good insight into the true purpose of patriotism:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

[StarHawk]

Uh I never said the EU would be the intrstrument of Satan now did I I said some people say the simple fact that it is there fits kind of well into one of the SIGNS of the end not the INSTRUMENT of said ends.

And if whoever said that thing about Gee stardork did you forget the USA wasnt in Europe. I have this to say. Gee idiot did you not realize I said they would try to allow us to join it in an Alliance not necessarily as PART OF the EU? And they probobly would like the US economic power to bulst their economic alliance right I mean they may very well turn the EU into the IU [Internation Union] Or [Intercontinental Union].

I also never blamed any country for being the Instrument of SATAN cause it is not the country that would do it necessarily it is the leadership of that government voluntary or not that would play a role in the END TIMES according to most Christian churches. That does not mean the EU will turn evil and try to conquer the world it means it may play a role for good or ill no one knows thats still to come.


And the United States is not an "alliance" per se. The European Union is a true blood alliance for now but it may become a "European United States" for the lack of a better term. That would not in and of its self be bad unless they tried to force the smaller nations of Europe to join the EU. Right now its just a little creepy about the fact that, that appears to be quite possible if you get just one kooky leader.

THe United States cant really form an EMPIRE because we cant really force Canada into any sort of Imperialistic sort of thing we dont have the political power. So that really cant be compared to an overall continent forming one big giant country/state.

Like I said guys and like you seem to keep missing. It is not the EU its self thats creepy its the way it COULD EASILY CHANGE AND THEN FIT into that part of the "End Times" that is creepy. I have no problem with Europe its a lovely place for the most part and its got good governments for the most part but we shall see what the future brings.
Just as we shall see what the Future brings the United States either way what will happen will happen so I'm just going to sit back [so to speak] and watch events play out thats about all you can do right.

AND FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME I AM NOT XENOPHOBIC OR I WOULD BE SPOUTING STUFF LIKE "We should destroy the EU while we still can." and "Lets kick those damned imigrants out of our country." and "Well I dont trust asia because uhh gee just because." I just find the WAY the EU COULD FIT creepy not the EU its SELF.

And consider it this way when I said its doomed to eventually fail I said the same thing about the United States and every other country on Earth Eventually they will all fail all nations have and all nations will. No country ever stays what it is forever right and you guys seem to be jumping down my throat for that.

[dmille]

This post is to disprove some of what StarHawk, our resident religious right wing supporter has said.

For StarHawk: I am quite possibly the most pro-United States person in the HW community. Speak to IRC if you have any questions on that. I would appreciate it however, if you would refrain from posting at all... you have this habit of making the United States look like more of a collection of dimwits than it already does.

Thanks.

Now on to the fun stuff:



And JSYK I was not thinking about the "Founding Fathers" at all I was thinking about the Pilgrims who in most respects are our real "Founding Fathers" and they were Puritain [sp?} Although I personally think Puritainism is a little overboard it is an older denomination of Christianity. And yes many of the Founding Fathers were Christian not all but many.


Our founding fathers were not really Puritians. The second wave of English immigration to New England removed much of the control the Puritans had over their towns, which became far more secular. Benjamin Franklin was a Puritan, but disliked organized religion.

Furthermore, the U.S. is founded on a base of religious diversity with the colonists who landed in Virginia members of the Church of England, Catholics in Baltimore (the location of a colony subsidized by, oddly enough, Lord Baltimore).

While these are all branches of Christianity, they were fleeing England where the government and religion were closley intertwined (the king was the head of the Church of England).

Thus, as the founding fathers were, as with most men of their day, religious in the personal sense, they were of different branches of faith, and well aware of the dangers of too strong a religious influance, and founded the country's legal system on religious eithics - but NOT religion itself. The United States of America is not based on any one religion, though it must of course be conceeded that it is based on Juedeo-Christian ethics.



And if you ask me the USA on its current road is going the way of Rome because in recent years its on a moral decline just like Rome before it fell.
But when a moral state of a nation starts to decline the people grow decadent and self absorbed and eventually they just dont care if their country falls.


Let me stop laughing before I really start typing... there. I'm a fairly conservative person and thus am not terribly fond of some of the things you would describe as "moral decay." However, your viewpoint is that of a conservative longing for an idealized version of the past. Social and scienctific advances are often described as "moral decay" by those unwilling to acknowledge or afraid of change. The civil rights movement, and women's sufferage were described in similar ways by people equally afraid of advance.

The Roman Empire was politically and economically unstable. The United States of America is not.

There will not be a war between the European Union and the United States of America. There are too many economic and social ties for it to be acceptable on either side, and both would risk massive destruction.


Uh I never said the EU would be the intrstrument of Satan now did I I said some people say the simple fact that it is there fits kind of well into one of the SIGNS of the end not the INSTRUMENT of said ends.

This is laughable. I'm sorry to offend you, but the Bible is mythology. Its not terribly good reading, and is, in my opinion, far inferior to Greek-Roman and Norse Mythology.

The European Union is primarily an economic alliance, as there are, at least at this stage, too many cultural and language barriers to a full union. Did you forget, StarHawk, that the United States began in a similar way, under the Articles of Confederation.


I also never blamed any country for being the Instrument of SATAN cause it is not the country that would do it necessarily it is the leadership of that government voluntary or not that would play a role in the END TIMES according to most Christian churches. That does not mean the EU will turn evil and try to conquer the world it means it may play a role for good or ill no one knows thats still to come.


And the United States is not an "alliance" per se. The European Union is a true blood alliance for now but it may become a "European United States" for the lack of a better term. That would not in and of its self be bad unless they tried to force the smaller nations of Europe to join the EU. Right now its just a little creepy about the fact that, that appears to be quite possible if you get just one kooky leader.
[quote]
THe United States cant really form an EMPIRE because we cant really force Canada into any sort of Imperialistic sort of thing we dont have the political power. So that really cant be compared to an overall continent forming one big giant country/state.


Somewhat correct. I am somewhat of an imperialist, but more in the economic sense than the military-political one. Empires do not have to be, and seldom are, tangent to your country's borders. It would be rather nice, in my opinion, if we formed stronger political ties with Canada (giving both nations equal political input, I don't want to annex Canada, of course), but you're right in that we don't really have the ability to do so.


Like I said guys and like you seem to keep missing. It is not the EU its self thats creepy its the way it COULD EASILY CHANGE AND THEN FIT into that part of the "End Times" that is creepy. I have no problem with Europe its a lovely place for the most part and its got good governments for the most part but we shall see what the future brings.
Bad mythology again...


AND FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME I AM NOT XENOPHOBIC
No, probably not... you're merely a fool.



And consider it this way when I said its doomed to eventually fail I said the same thing about the United States and every other country on Earth Eventually they will all fail all nations have and all nations will. No country ever stays what it is forever right and you guys seem to be jumping down my throat for that.


The general idea is quite correct. Similar to entropy actually. Disorder will increase, and buracratic burdens, in addition to social movements and stresses which cannot be handled by a government guided by the Constitution will end the United States. That won't be for a very long time however.

[StarHawk]

Dmille I have no problem with you considering the Bible Mytholodgy its not my place to judge you or any other person. I have a problem with people who jump down your throat about how nobody should read the bible and act like its poision like Langy is doing. If you dont want to read the bible fine but dont DISCOURAGE people in the way he did that and only that is where I had problems with him in the way of religion.

And as for the EU becoming a full Union it may happen language can be taught you know :-).


And yes America is based on Religious diversity but mainly Christian denominations and Catholics most weastern nations main religions are Christian or Catholic suprisingly few countries are fully calling themselves atheistic states.

I am not a fool some things I say come out wrong I have a problem with that as I state alot around here sometimes what I mean is lost with what the words say its a crappy problem but I dont usually have that problem in the "real world" so most people find debating with me interesting if they could talk to me in person :-).

[Maverick_3058]

Well, dmille said what I would've done, at least in some capacities, otherwise.
Bollocks.;)

[dmille]

I can't say I'm terribly fond of fire and brimstone "be Christian and accept Christ or roast in hell for eternity" speeches like those you give.

As to the EU, language can be tought, but people are extremly reluctant to give up their cultural identity.

I'm not criticizing how you say what you have to say... I'm criticizing the content (unlike many others who should reconsider).

[Langy]

Starhawk - How am I acting like the Bible is poison? I don't care what you do with your time, just don't take everything in the Bible as if it is the truth. Humans wrote it, not god. Remember that.

[zenogias]

Ever notice how schizophrenic the U.S. government is? On one hand, we give out massive amounts of foreign aid and on the other we support the institutions that require us to give out massive amounts of foreign aid.

Take the African AIDS crisis, for instance. Our government will be giving out millions of dollars to help, but we also fight to prevent the generic-ization of the drugs needed to treat AIDS on the grounds that doint so will prevent scientific development by making it impossible to make money from the sell of these drugs (money required to fund R&D, by the way).

Problem is, there's something in the international patent laws that says a nation can get away with breaking patent rights in the case of a national emergency. One of the South American nations -- Brazil, I think -- has already done this, and the African nations are wanting to do the same, though we're fighting them tooth and nail.

Wanna know why?

Politics. It's not a deep, dark conspiracy, just politics. Politicians do what will earn them the most browny points, getting them reelected. They want to seem supportative of popular causes with acting, because acting will piss someone else off, losing money/votes. It'd all abig power game to them.

Meanwhile, one-fourth of South Africa's population will die of AIDS in the next few years :(

[Mac_Bug]

I'm quite amazed at the fact that frstkor hasn't jumped in yet, maybe he's been struck with the flu like me...

But here's something to think about, you guys can call each other morons and idiots all you want, I don't very much care, but take it too far and there may be unwanted consequences...


its been a very long time since grade school, but i can still remember this one chinese girl who simply cried every day at 9:15 sharp, 5 mins before the daily scheduled group chanting session. and i honestly believe that this girl was scared for life because she was forced to admit to something her religion would not firmly confirm, nor deny.

What the hell? I think your chinese girl have issues.


now i don't know what it is like in other parts of America, but should young people with very little sense of self, beforce to pledge their alligance? do we purposly brain wash children at a young age into patriotism? and as far as seperation of church and state, is their legal right to say god in public schools?


Does the love of country supercede the love of self? I don't think I'd quite call it brain washing, hell, we brain wash our kid not to drink smoke or drive or do drugs.

I'm not sure whether I'm actually comfortable in a place where the majority hates the US of A, being so used to be the minority in an argument.


Its the double standards. Iraq is not allowed to have weapons and needs to accept international observers to see how many they have. But don't even think about asking the same from the usa.

That's certainly true. Russia has always been this great evil since the cold war, but the US of A to certain nations are far more dangerous, yet they've never had the chance to demand US of A be regulated. America spends more money on its military than the next ten world powers combined, and even though China has the largest Navy as some here suggest, it won't last two days (at least, according to Tom Clancy) against US cruise missiles and aircraft carriers.


Its national security! Usa is angry at china cause they export weapons to "rogue" states, but at the same time usa keeps selling high tech weapons to that rogue chinese province.

Only if you want to fight the semantics though. To be fair, Iraq certainly isn't high on my list as 'the country that need nukes'. As a Chinese, I could careless whether Taiwan goes independent. America already treats it as if it is.


The taleban get punished for supporting a terrorist organisation, but at this moment the usa still supports several rebel/terrorist groups around the world and is actively trying to overthrow a couple of governments.

Speaking of legit governments and the Taliban. they were slammed for being 'not officially recognized' yada yada, and now latest is they are being labeled the 'rebel faction', the north alliance no longer in existence. What about Taiwan? it has never declared independence, it has no presence in the United Nations, and frankly their big pink flower flags suck :)


USA is pressing all around the world for FREE TRADE. But at the same time they impose heavy import taxes on foreign steel to protect their own steel industry.

Canada is exempt because of the free trade agreement to this issue. However the soft wood lumber talks have gotten us no where in months, and looks like the imposed tarif will be back because Canadians 'subsidize' their lumber industry. I wonder where is the free trade in that, and as some Canadians cry out, this is what US of A do for its neighbor? (nevermind how bush left out canada in his speeches)

38% of Kuwaites believe 911 was morally justified. (ABC news) Surprised?

50% ( or somewhere along that line) of Somalis depend upon family working over seas to survive, Americans froze these bank accounts and stopped the money transfers citing fundings to terrorist groups.

Betcha you never heard of that out of American media.

And then you wonder whether people really should love America, while StarHawk does argue that 'you should all love us!', so does the Somalis say the same thing to America. Evidently none is morally superior to the other, and thats how the game is played.

America is better off not selling their sugar coated pills and start playing the real game of trading punches. You hit me, I hit you back. Like it or not, it is a dog eat dog world.

[StarHawk]

It is rather odd that most opf the people here are Anti USA isnt it.

And Dmille I dont do the fire and brimstone stuff because I have no rite to judge otehr people. I mean there is this theory many theologans have that I rather agree with. It states that If someone has never heard of Jesus and has no chance to ever hear of him God will still allow them in heaven because they did not know about Jesus and thus had no choice in that department. I agree with this strongly because God would hardly condemn someone to hell over the fact they were born in the wrong country or wrong part of the world to get the chance to choose one way or the other.
Now there is this other theory I am neither here nor there on it states that. Hell is a place of TORMENT not TORTURE so those that chose atheism over God get to DO THEIR OWN THING for eternity in a world where they still have to suffer illness and pain like this earth and that is their torment for eternity. Some add ons to that theory are that they get to live like that till the end of the world where God will give them the chance to repent and if they dont they will be caste into the lake of fire. Like I said I am neither here nor there on that theory because I have never been to hell and dont plan on it anytime soon:D so I'll never know what hell is like.

And you know I've just come up with a new theory about the EU. In a galaxy far far away there was once a government exactly like the EU you know it started inocent enough "Just an Economic alliance" they said but then after it took power BAM Imperial Stormtroopers were let loose on the Galaxy and the Imperial Navy bombed some world with a race named after squids on it. Yes yes they said their boy scouts were just boy scouts but when they took over worlds now then people stopped laughing. DONT TRUST THE EU THEY WILL TURN INTO GE [General Electric?"] and they "Boy Scouts" will start taking over the world and the REAL EU navy which is up there "Points torwards the roof" will start bombing our Squid people and will take over the world DONT TRUST THE EU AND ESPECIALLY NOT THE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!! AHHHHAHAHAHA

Seriously though I dont know what the EU will become in the next few decades or centuries to come for all I know it will turn into an evil dictatorship for all I know it will bring peace to the middle east [I doubt it :D ] I am not going to say anything further on that subject. Just this watch out for the boy scouts.

[dmille]

But here's something to think about, you guys can call each other morons and idiots all you want, I don't very much care, but take it too far and there may be unwanted consequences...

Thanks Mac, I fell so righteous now.....


Does the love of country supercede the love of self?

It should... thats what makes human society work.

China's navy isn't the largest I believe. They currently lack the capacity to mount an invasion of Taiwan, meaning they are seriously lacking in the area of troop transfers.




Only if you want to fight the semantics though. To be fair, Iraq certainly isn't high on my list as 'the country that need nukes'. As a Chinese, I could careless whether Taiwan goes independent. America already treats it as if it is.


When was the last time Taiwan used a weapon of mass destruction on its own civilians? Iraq has. United States nuclear policy concerning Taiwan strictly forbids the DoD from transfering nuclear weapon technology to them, and they have stated that they have no desire to obtain nuclear weapons. This puts them in a slightly different catagory than Iraq...



Speaking of legit governments and the Taliban. they were slammed for being 'not officially recognized' yada yada, and now latest is they are being labeled the 'rebel faction', the north alliance no longer in existence. What about Taiwan? it has never declared independence, it has no presence in the United Nations, and frankly their big pink flower flags suck :)

The United Nations is a joke (*Enter Shin*). Taiwan is a member of the WTO, which has far more actual influence. Furthermore, Taliban fighters are being recognized as fighting on behalf of a government, at least by the international community. My understanding is that the interem government in Afghanistan has not granted the Taliban such status.



Canada is exempt because of the free trade agreement to this issue. However the soft wood lumber talks have gotten us no where in months, and looks like the imposed tarif will be back because Canadians 'subsidize' their lumber industry. I wonder where is the free trade in that, and as some Canadians cry out, this is what US of A do for its neighbor? (nevermind how bush left out canada in his speeches)

While I personally believe that the U.S. should be much more supportive of Canada, "free trade" has to go both ways or it won't fly. The United States cannot put itself in a position where, because it has no tarrifs and a foreign nation does, United States interests are destroyed. If other nations were to apply free trade policies at the same time, tarrifs wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Its comforting to think that you want the U.S. to apply policies that would put it at a disadvantage. For "free trade" to be applied, it must truly be free, and not free on the U.S. side and restricted on the other end.



Saw both in U.S. media actually.

[quote]America is better off not selling their sugar coated pills and start playing the real game of trading punches. You hit me, I hit you back. Like it or not, it is a dog eat dog world.

If we played by similar rules, it would be possible to argue the following: bin Laden et co. are waging an all out war against the United States of America and civilian targets, so the U.S. can do the same. Enter General Sherman.

[Maverick_3058]

Originally posted by StarHawk
It is rather odd that most opf the people here are Anti USA isnt it.
The internet cares not for geographic boundaries. More than 200 million out of 6 billion isn't that large, either.



Now there is this other theory I am neither here nor there on it states that. Hell is a place of TORMENT not TORTURE so those that chose atheism over God get to DO THEIR OWN THING for eternity in a world where they still have to suffer illness and pain like this earth and that is their torment for eternity.

In the improbable event that is so, well, c'est la après-vie.



Seriously though I dont know what the EU will become in the next few decades or centuries to come for all I know it will turn into an evil dictatorship for all I know it will bring peace to the middle east [I doubt it :D ] I am not going to say anything further on that subject. Just this watch out for the boy scouts.
I don't see how a dictatorship could possibly come out of a loose confederation.

[ceejayoz]

China's navy isn't the largest I believe. They currently lack the capacity to mount an invasion of Taiwan, meaning they are seriously lacking in the area of troop transfers.
They have the largest navy in manpower and actual number of ships. Mostly outdated ships, but still the largest navy. :)

[Uzod I]

You ppl are fun to read :D

[ceejayoz]

p.s. more proof that the US wasn't founded to be a "Christian" nation (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html)

[Shin]

Dmille, you think the UN is a joke because it does not always bow to the wishes of the US - which is - as you yourself say, your foremost priority over and above anything else. How can I argue with that?

You are a patriot. And in your case this term exactly means that which serves it's own interests, views others with cynicism, patronizes the unfortunate. This brand of patriotism approaches fanaticism, and it is just as disruptive as the zealous fundamentalist religions that you as well as I dislike.

Patriotism is said to love one's country above one's self. This is noble. However when this turns into contempt for the world "patriotism" turns from being a principle curing us from a petty selfishness that can harm a few people... into a venom that arms us for larger-scale selfishness that can harm an entire world.


What worries me deeply, and I have seen it exemplified in this case, is that we in America are in great danger of slowly eroding into a proto-fascist state. It will be a different kind of fascist state from the one the Germans evolved; theirs grew out of depression and promised bread and work, while ours, curiously enough, seems to be emerging from prosperity. But in the final analysis, it's based on power and on the inability to put human goals and human conscience above the dictates of the State. Its origins can be traced in the tremendous war machine we've built since 1945, the "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower vainly warned us about, which now dominates every aspect of our life.
...
Huey Long once said, "Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism." I'm afraid, based on my own long experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security.

--Jim Garrison (http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id1767/pg4/)

This was written in 1967 an since then not only have things not changed, the have become worse with technology, with the unabashed relationships between government and the major commercial enterprises (Enron), with the growing commercialization of the media and with the passing of the Patriot bill in record time before many were even aware of what it really meant.

Most grievious of all is that many young Americans now have willingly subscribed to this proto-fascism clouded behind the veneer of patriotism.

I do find hope, however, because there are still young Americans that resist the social pressures of conforming to regionalism and try their best to maintain their individuality as citizens of not one country, but of one world.

[EchoEffect]

There is always the chance that the EU could turn into a dictatorship. However I am hoping that it wont. Europe has done dictatorship before, Kings and Dictators are hopefully a thing of the past. (Kings in the sence of them ruling a country). I am hoping the EU can be something new, and something better.

I'm hoping.

[ÜberJumper]

I didn't see if someone posted this a couple days ago, but I fid it strangely appropriate for this thread.


http://www.dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=369

[ceejayoz]

also appropriate: http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/tmate020305.gif

(p.s. why's [img] turned off? :()

[StarHawk]

Well my response to that would have been this.
"Well who cares what the European countries think?" I mean yeah Europeans are real nice countries everyone loves right HA!

And I hope the EU does not become a dictatorship either may it become one OF COURSE just like every country/alliance can become a dictatorship if the circumstances are right.

OH AND LANGY population wise.
China 1.2 billion [should learn how to use condems, and the pill]
India. 1 billion [cant use condems or the pill cause they cant afford to produce em as a country :-)]
USA 350 million

So there you go. :-)

This is not meant to sound racist or anything but anyone notice how most Asian countries are overpopulated? How do you figure that I mean it is odd.
And I mean what I said China should bother teaching people to use the damn condems and "The Pill" instead of suddenly coming into a forced abortion programe where they hunt down people who run and either A. Uh teach them a lession in comunist loyalties [I.E. they disapear] or B. they force them to get an abortion anyway. I mean a condem is far cheaper then an abortion so you cant even say its because of funding issues. And so is any morning after pill.

[ionfish]

StarHawk: your country hasn't taught you to spell and it hasn't taught you to use grammar properly. Yet you still believe it's the best in the world.

Why is this?

[Dukath]

There chance that EU will become a dictatorship is a lot smaller than the US becoming one. Just think about it.
German people will never allow a french dictator to rule, nor will french allow a german one. Italy will protest if its a spanish one etc. Europe is kinda safe from things like that because of the way its build. Europe is a group of nations who come closqer to each other and start working together. They will never be one country.
While the EURO has a lot of political implications too, and while i don't think europe becoming even more federalised is a bad thing i don't think it will happen in the next few years. Lets see how the euro does first and then we can think about more.

As for "who cares what europe thinks?" Well USA should cause Europe is the main trade partner of the usa. Things could turn out nasty if this steel issue doesnt get resolved.

As for chinas "one child policy". I think they have a lot of courage to try and enforce something like that, although the way they do it is not good. The world is overpopulated, while we can produce enough food and get enough resources for even more people than today, we cannot do that with the living standards of the western worlds. So if we want to keep our living standards like they are now the population will have to decrease a lot.

You say they should use condoms. Well fine, lets make a few billion rubber condoms every yearfor china alone. I wonder how much pollution that will give, not to mention the fact that rubber prices will go up a lot. :)

[matt_tone9]

heh, thanks for giving me a good laff this is the bloody funniest thread I've seen in a while :D

There's so little chance of the EU becoming a dictatorship, StarHawk do you think we learnt NOTHING from WW2? who would take control? Germany? France? Britain? I don't think so.

going back a bit, what makes you think we are obsessed with the sea? You seem to be sourcing your research from the time we were an empire and actually needed a navy...

[StarHawk]

First of all my grammar is no worse then what I see a bunch of you guys doing and at least I usually get my THE to look like THE and not HTE, or TEH, or HET so go screw yourself. And I already said typing is not something I am really good at, or do you not read things that you can go taunting people about ION FISH??? And my spelling is fine.

As for the EU becoming a dictatorship I said it COULD happen I mean pigs growing wings and starting to sing Oh Danny Boy could happen too someday :-) so I dont really care about the EU as long as it does not do anything totally evil ;-).

The thing about birth control that I mentioned you missed is about "The Pill", that seems to work for many countries all over the world. Its not the Chinese people I dont like there are many many smart Chinese people and nice people. its the government I dont like and for many reasons not just Birth Control issues its that simple really.

And you guys seem to still be missing the fact that I have NO PROBLEM WITH THE EU I just think its a wee creepy for my own reasons and those are not even that really prominant in my mind it's not like I sit around and go. "The EU's gonna get me the EU's gonna get me :-)". so what's the big deal about that?

And the Navy is in Britain's blood even now, just look at it, the British navy is stil their main military force. And they were one of the most succesfull seafaring powers for centuries until the USA came along, and thats only because the USA got some of their seafaring skill from the Brits :-).

Oh and the thing about "So who cares what Europe thinks." I mean come on who cares how much they bitch about our Scandals, they are not about to stop trade relations with us. because they need the USA as much as the USA needs them.

I just think its funny that they spend so much time making fun of the US government, and citizenry even though they are not exactly the best countries on earth either. And they have plenty of their own scandal to look at yet they still constantly go off about ours its just funny thats all.
And dont even get me started on what I think of France and its comments about the USA you'd have to read for hours and hours :-)

[bluevorlon]

The thought of the EU - a body so bureaucratically complex, and with a democratic process of mind-numbing tedium, length and ineffectiveness - actually getting it's ass together in anything as coherent as a military alliance, let alone a dictatorship, is so laughable it doesn't even bear entertaining.

Seriously, we have problems getting everyone to use the same coins, let alone mutually invade smaller nation states as some kind of european hegemonising swarm,

:)

please note, in principle I am an ardent fan of the EU, it's just it seems a rather ineffcient and inelegant body to me in it's present system.

[TheBob]

Why did huge nations form in the first place? I think the old tribal system of 50 or so people governed by a chief worked the best, IMHO.

[EchoEffect]

You keep saying you don't hate countries or have anyhting against them. Then destory it by saying things like.


And dont even get me started on what I think of France and its comments about the USA

By that I assume you mean that they dont support the USA whatever they do.

[matt_tone9]

Originally posted by StarHawk
And the Navy is in Britain's blood even now

Do you live in the UK? I'm wondering cos WE ARE NOT OBSESSED WITH THE SEA! ;)

[mecha]

And the Navy is in Britain's blood even now, just look at it, the British navy is stil their main military force.
I just did look at it (http://www.mod.uk/aboutus/factfiles/numbers.htm). StarHawk, everything you've said about the navy has been wrong so far, give it up, the uk navy is not the largest in the world by a long way. And as for it being the most important in the uk, the uk army is over twice the size of the navy and I think you'll find that the most important force in the defence of the uk is nato, gg though.

[StarHawk]

By that I assume you mean that they dont support the USA whatever they do.

Yup thats exactly what I mean they always complain about US policies even when they seem to be good. Although from what I hear the French people overall are not to bad its the Parisians that are the assholes to americans. And the French government is rather rude to the USA aswell. go figure :-)


I mean why did huge nations form in the first place? I think the old tribal system of 50 or so people governed by a cheif worked best IMHO

Well its quite simple really many tribes came together for military defense from other tribes that were smart enough to do that first Tribes started becoming city states, city states became nations, nations became empires, and so on and so forth.
Most HUGE nations are a lot better off then small nations and thus tribes would not last, because you'd always have tribes forming together to form military powers to crush their not so smart neighbores who stayed with the Tribal system.

Oh not to mention look at Africa and old America [as in the entire continent not just the native Americans] the tribal system lead to wars and nasty things going on all ove rthe place it was chaos so finally governments took over or wiped them out. [cept in africa where they still have tribal wars which claim thousands of lives each year over sad reasons.]

And armies are always larger then navies :-) and I no longer said it was the worlds largest that was a mistake I corrected it.
And NATO is not really a military force as in a branch of the military so that doesnt count :-p

[matt_tone9]

I pledge allegiance to the United States and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I find it seriously, SERIOUSLY creepy that children in the US are made to recite this, to me it has shadows of the pledges made by German schoolchildren in Nazi Germany, that by stating your alliance to your state you must do what it says... just my humble opinion...

[ceejayoz]

And NATO is not really a military force as in a branch of the military so that doesnt count :-p
*watches thread reach new levels of "pulled out of butt"*

StarHawk, please shut up until you know what you're talking about. NATO is a military alliance, not a branch of the military.

Yup thats exactly what I mean they always complain about US policies even when they seem to be good. Although from what I hear the French people overall are not to bad its the Parisians that are the assholes to americans. And the French government is rather rude to the USA aswell. go figure :-)
What's good for the United States may not be good for France. btw... you'd be an asshole to Americans too if you had to put up with loud obnoxious ignorant tourists. Ever been to Paris, StarHawk? I have. 3 times last year. Everyone's really nice if you don't act like the typical American tourist (who thinks if you talk LOUD and sloooow they'll understand you better)

[StarHawk]

Uh Lets see Ceejay perhaps if I type real big you might understand what IS NOT A BRANCH OF THE MILITARY means I said that and you even quoted it you big dummy. I said NATO IS NOT A MILITARY FORCE AS IN A BRANCH OF THE MILITARY SO IT DOES NOT REALLY COUNT :-p Notice there I said NOT A BRANCH OF THE MILITARY not IS A BRANCH OF THE MILITARY maybe you should read further into what I say before you make dumbass comments.

And according to a friend of mine and many other people Parisians are rude to just about every foreigner. And no I dont like those stupid tourists that think if you talk real sllooooooooww and real loud they will understand english. But thats not just american tourists either you know.

[dmille]

Dmille, you think the UN is a joke because it does not always bow to the wishes of the US - which is - as you yourself say, your foremost priority over and above anything else. How can I argue with that?

No, Shin, that isn't really why I dislike the United Nations. I diagree with U.S. policy in many areas, and am supportive of the UN in several roles. However, the current structure and application of the United Nations is highly flawed.

The United Nations is, with its current strategies failing in its mission to secure world peace and prosperity, and changes must be made.

I am not fond of the manner in which the United States is treated by the United Nations, and the fact that the United Nations is used by despotic third-world dictatorships (or any other country for that matter) to attack United States interests under the guise of world peace and prosperity.

I would certainly not be so adverse to the UN if it was not blatantly hypocritical and little more than a mouthpiece for repressive regimes.



You are a patriot. And in your case this term exactly means that which serves it's own interests, views others with cynicism, patronizes the unfortunate. This brand of patriotism approaches fanaticism, and it is just as disruptive as the zealous fundamentalist religions that you as well as I dislike.


Shin, I am a skeptic of all things. Describe it as cynicism if you will, as it sometimes approaches that. I apply the same attitude to many of the actions taken by my own government and its leaders. You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive. It makes for a rather poor debate overall.

I disapprove of many United States policies, and respect numerous other countries and international organizations, so my patriotism does not approach fanaticism, except perhaps in comparison to some on IRC.

I freely admit that I strongly dislike, if not despise, many foreign governments. I do not despise the people they rule, as I am neither ethnocentric nor racist. I have made it clear that I strongly dislike the government of France - I do not strongly dislike French people. I dislike the government of the "People's Republic of China," I do not dislike Chinese people. I despised the Taliban long before most Americans knew it existed - I do not despise Afghani people.



Patriotism is said to love one's country above one's self. This is noble. However when this turns into contempt for the world "patriotism" turns from being a principle curing us from a petty selfishness that can harm a few people... into a venom that arms us for larger-scale selfishness that can harm an entire world.


Shin, I support medical efforts in underdeveloped countries, I strongly oppose sweatshops, child labor, and numerous other scourages and have taken action against them. I think the principle that angers you most is my strong belief that the U.S. government's primary responsibility is the interests and saftey of United States citizens, and only after that are they responsible to the remainder of the world.

While it is the duty of each United States citizen to remember that he or she is a member of the "world community" and thus be compelled to act for the good of humanity, U.S. citizens must also remember which flag to salute.


And NATO is not really a military force as in a branch of the military so that doesnt count :-p
I ask you again to stop posting as you make Americans look like fools: NATO is the primary military defense of much of Europe, it is a composite of several brances of many militaries.

IonFish, I'm sure there are people in every country who are somewhat challenged in those areas. Don't be cruel and rude, thanks.

[Weavern]

As an on looker to this thread I must read the replies and laugh about the coments by various people. NATO correct me is a treaty between all the member countries there is no military assigned to nato like the UN it is just an agreement that if you attack me we all attack you. Created to combat the Russians during the cold war, they also formed a similar alliance but the name plagues me now.

About the EU, I think it is the best thing for that entire area. They are so intertwined and do so much trading there that it makes sense to have one currency for them all so that my 1 coin doesent = 40 of yours. I recall hearing that most merchants and buisness people in the EU were able to speak at least half of the languages. What would it mean if it became one country ? Not much, and it would not happen. But they are getting close, they have a joint space program, now currency, and more than enough defense treaties between them all. It makes sense for Europe to grow closer togeather due to the hardships they have faced in the past, several wars including world wars in your back yard tends to have nations join togeather. The EU could be a great thing if they went further. But the sentiments of say the french or the polish towards say the germans may inhibit that for a few decades.

Ceejayoz I agree with your tourist comment I find it funny when I go across into french speaking areas and see people doing just that. Helps to have a idea of the language and try to speak a bit of their language instead of speaking loud and slow. If you can get some of the words down then they might get what you say.

[Maverick_3058]

Originally posted by dmille

You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive. It makes for a rather poor debate overall.

If you want a good, rational debate, as you claim, then do not goad others in the expectation for it.



The United Nations is a joke (*Enter Shin*).


The Second World equivalent to NATO was the Warsaw Pact, by the way.

[dmille]

If you want a good, rational debate, as you claim, then do not goad others in the expectation for it.

Lacking knowledge of the subject, I suggest that you refrain from commenting in the future

I said "United Nations"... what does your reply have to do with that exactly?


As an on looker to this thread I must read the replies and laugh about the coments by various people. NATO correct me is a treaty between all the member countries there is no military assigned to nato like the UN it is just an agreement that if you attack me we all attack you. Created to combat the Russians during the cold war, they also formed a similar alliance but the name plagues me now.
NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization supports and enforces the treaty from which it draws its name. NATO is far more than a treaty, as it has a command structure drawn from the militaries of its member nations, and conducts peacekeeping and combat operations under that structure. It is an American-European military force now expanding to global duty. During the Cold War, it provided a unified defensive front against the Soviet threat.

[StarHawk]

THANK YOU!
NATO IS NOT A MILITARY AT ALL! It is an alliance of nations that will PROVIDE military aid to their allies NOT a military. It is not a BRANCH of any military and it HAS NO MILITARY you dont here of THE UNITED NATIONS ARMY OR MARINE CORPS now do you!?

For someone talking about how I should learn what I am talking about you should also learn what you are talking about.
I also said NATO does not COUNT AS A BRANCH OF ANY MILITARY SO IT DOES NOT COUNT AS THE PRIMARY MILITAR POWER OF EUROPE! Dmille so I dont even get where your getting an attitude telling me not to post any further on it I am right it IS NOT A MILITARY OR BRANCH OF MILITARY.

And SATO is the exact same thing it is an alliance of nations that will provide economic and military aid to any ally in time of war. It is ALSO NOT A MILITARY POWER OR BRANCH OF ANY NATIONS MILITARY.

And the Warsaw pact is not even close to the same thing as NATO,SATO,EU, or the United Nations.

And Like I said if the European Union can do their part of the world better More Power to them.

[mecha]

I recall hearing that most merchants and buisness people in the EU were able to speak at least half of the languages.
That's quite a lot of languages for everyone to be speaking, you are wrong.

But the sentiments of say the french or the polish towards say the germans may inhibit that for a few decades
France and Germany are the major forces behind greater european integration and Poland isn't a member of the european union, again you are wrong.

[Maverick_3058]

You were criticizing Shin's character(and making things rather uncivil, in respect to the thread) on the basis of prercieved irrationality, which you prompted with your second comment.
I will comment when I feel that I should do so, Dan. Just because I have not yet expressed an interest in your part of the thread does not indicate either knowledge or ignorance, nor does it disenfranchise me from joining in when or if I decide to do so.

[dmille]

I think Shin is quite capable of responding to my "criticism" himself.

[Weavern]

mecha it was just an example of how all the european countries would not submit or agree to another country whom they may still harbour resentment towards. And I said I recall hearing that, not suprizing for a buisness man to be able to speak the language of his trading partners. Do not the european neighbouring try to learn in the school system how to speak the language of their neighbours ?

[Shin]

I shall ignore dmille's criticism as it has no merit. Interestingly, he provided me with an appropriate response:

"You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive. It makes for a rather poor debate overall."

The real point of my post is that which he completely ignored: fascism.

And concerning the UN: "The United Nations is, with its current strategies failing in its mission to secure world peace and prosperity, and changes must be made. "

Naturally it fails. Its most powerful members follow their own agendas.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
-Samuel Johnson

[dmille]

"You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive. It makes for a rather poor debate overall."

Then we're both guilty, Shin.

Not only the most powerful members of the United Nations follow their own agendas, all members do. You just prefer to blame the larger ones (specifically the United States of America) for all of the UN's failures.

I'll get to the facism issue, I just need time to type out a lengthy response.

[Ben Tusi]

StarHawk, here's a little theme I've noticed in your posts:


I state the fact that Europeans are to buisy making fun of us to help anyone.

Yup, StarHawk seems to always be where the information is! In 1995, the British Government offically established the Ministry of Making Fun of Americans, which got more funding from British Parlament than The Department of National Defence, and The Ministry of Health combined. 99.99993% of tax dollars went strieght into the Ministry of Making Fun of Americans, and not a penny went into the Ministry of Helping Anyone. People were too busy throwing money at the Ministry of Making Fun of Americans that "carities" and other such services ceised to ever exist, due to a Ministry of Making Fun of Americans coverup, so that more money, time and resources could go into the task of making fun of the good ol' Star Spangled Banner, and all those who saluted underneath it. Lord British makes sure that the Ministry is running at 568% capacity at all times, and successfuly did so to this day.

In 1996, the Frech jumped on the bandwagon, and initiated the Service fédéral de faire l'amusement des Américains, and channeled an ungodly number of Tax dollars into that service. The Service fédéral de faire l'amusement des Américains, like it's British counterpart, ordered a Military/Police coilition to crack down on all charities, to make sure more money gets invested in making fun of the Americans, instead of helping anyone.

Spain also caught onto the trend, with their "Departamento nacional de reírse de americanos."

Germany (Bundesministerium des Lustig machens von über Amerikanern), Italy (Servizio governativo di fare divertimento degli Americani ) and Portugal (Eu gosto de cabras e de leite) joined in a massive "European Colitilion for the Making Fun of Americans."

This massive, powerful, unstoppible coilition had three goals:


Make fun of Americans.
Cease the existance of Charities
Be evil



Alright, so I went a little overboard, but the fault remains, nontheless. The Europeans don't focus all their attention on making fun of Americans that all their charities and such cease existing, they have better things to do. And, yes, all countries have charities, except for the countries like Nigeria, Afganistan, Egypt, Peru, Congo, Naboola, and Jipakisoramicabulimisticakaniania.

[reki]

rofl.. ben tusi wins this thread. gold medal for you sir.

[EchoEffect]

NATO IS NOT A MILITARY AT ALL!

NATO is a military alliance. It does not have its "own" military, but by the terms of the treaty, the armies of the member countries count as its military.

NATO is nothing BUT a military orginzation. It is not a alliance which hsa economic and social wings as well....it is a military alliance.

NATO was set up as a military alliance to stop any invasion by the USSR into Europe. To stop it in a military way.

NATO is military, in fact, it is nothing but military

[StarHawk]

NATO is a defense treaty that does not make it only a military power it is NOT a military or branch of any national militaries it does not have its OWN ARMY it is an alliance where the other nations are willing to defend one another.
My complaint was with those people bitching at me when I said it does not count as part of the European militaries so it does not count as their primary military force. By military force it is obvious I mean armed forces like army navy air force. ANd the stuff like that.

[ceejayoz]

StarHawk, calm down a little and you might start making sense. I really can't understand what the last post meant, it's too jumbled.

[StarHawk]

Oh sorry Ceejay :boohoo: well what I am trying to say is this.
NATO is a defense treaty its purpose is not to be a military power it is an alliance of nations that agree to defend one another with THEIR OWN military forces NATO its self is NOT a military force. That is all I meant.
I have a problem with the guys bitching at me and calling me ignorant since I said that NATO DOES NOT COUNT as part of Europes military forces.
Is that more clear?
And no I am not being a sarcastic jackass I am sincere I appreciate you letting me know I was a little jumbled there ceejay especially since you did not do it rudely.

[TheBob]

Are we even on the subject any more?

[Uzod I]

Of course not, Bob. What's your point? :crazy:

Now, I'd hate to jump on the bandwagon and turn against you StarHawk, so I will attempt to make this inquery as unoffensive as possible.

You seem to have an oddly Black and White view of the world. Surely you must realize that there is no Good and Evil, only opinions...

[Liberator]

Sorry for sticking my nose in, I'll try to be brief.

1. Will someone show me, chapter and verse, where in the Constitution it specifically states that religion will stay separate from government?

2. The UN is a joke that takes itself way too seriously, and the US should seriously look into ANY dealings with the corrupt and despotic people within.

3. National Pride is not something to be afraid of, in fact it should be encouraged. It goes without saying that WE(all people) should be more tolerant and understanding of people trying to make their lives better. However, understanding should not mean doing for them, else they would not appreciate what they have and allow someone to control them.

4. Everyone assumes that we(Americans) are pompous and arrogant. Its been my experience we are not, at least not any more than any other country.

Quote: Surely you must realize that there is no Good and Evil, only opinions...

Then you have not seen true evil. You have not seen those that kill for nothing other than their own sadistic pleasure. You have not seen the slaughtering of millions of people simply because they happen to be of a different religious faith. You have not felt that cold blackness engulf your heart as you go someplace you know you shouldn't be. We live in a society that has forgotten the face of evil as well as good. Is there abosolute right and absolute wrong, the answer is an unqualified YES!
I'll shut up now.

Shields up, Inerial Dampers to Full! Prepare for flame attack!

[Rent-a-Zilla]

From the American Political Dictionary - Plano/Greenberg:


A basic principle of American government that prohibits the mingling of church and state. The principle rests on the First Amendment clause forbidding the passage of any law "respecting an establishment of religion."


The principle of the separation of church and state is most controversial when applied to the role of religion in public schools and to the use of public funds for parochial schools. In most cases (emphasis mine), the Supreme Court has supported Thomas Jefferson's idea that the establishment clause was intended to erect "a wall of seperation between church and state" toward the end that official governmental support not be placed behind the tenets of any religious orthodoxy and that public institutions not become embroiled in sectarian controversy.

There's more, but I can't be bothered to type it...

[matt_tone9]

Originally posted by Liberator
Quote: Surely you must realize that there is no Good and Evil, only opinions...

Then you have not seen true evil. You have not seen those that kill for nothing other than their own sadistic pleasure. You have not seen the slaughtering of millions of people simply because they happen to be of a different religious faith. You have not felt that cold blackness engulf your heart as you go someplace you know you shouldn't be. We live in a society that has forgotten the face of evil as well as good. Is there abosolute right and absolute wrong, the answer is an unqualified YES!

I think the point being made was that yes, there is great evil and also good in the world, but not everyone falls into being evil or a saint, there's somthing in between.

[Walker]

Point, 'Zilla; saved me the effort

[Liberator]

My apologies. That is a good point.

[StarHawk]

Originally posted by Uzod I
Of course not, Bob. What's your point? :crazy:

Now, I'd hate to jump on the bandwagon and turn against you StarHawk, so I will attempt to make this inquery as unoffensive as possible.

You seem to have an oddly Black and White view of the world. Surely you must realize that there is no Good and Evil, only opinions...

Thanks... No I dont have a black and white sense of the world there is good and evil in all countries I am just sick of people saying we [Americans] are all arrogant assholes that could care for nothing but our own money and greed. Its wrong I stated that and since I did so ALMOST EVERYONE has been turning against EVERYTHING I said.

America HAS FLAWS I stated that several times yet some of the people here still insist that I am making it out to be some mega godlike country that never makes errors or does something wrong,
But America helps more countries than any other nation on Earth [uh do you know how to say foreign aid programs] I said I think that is also a plus for America that most countries dont have. and I said it bluntly because its true and when I said the USA helps countries other then out of its own greed and the like people went berserk on me and when I stated the part about Britain not helping anyone else they kept telling me I was wrong and to stop posting.

And gee God forbid I actually say I respect my country and would die if it called me to a just war. I mean good greif some of the people here seem to prefer anyone but the USA. I mean at least in the 20th century the US Federal government hasn't killed millions of its own people based on religion, race or sexual preferance.

And yes the UN is a joke that seems to think it can boss around the United States so I dont like the UN and AGAIN people tell me to shut up and stop posting.

[EchoEffect]

The USA is a member of the UN, it joined the orginzation, the HQ is in New York, the USA sits on the security council.....the least that the UN can ask is that the USA pays its membership fee.

It increasingly seems that the USA only listens to the UN when i suits them. They consider themselves above the United Nations, and get frustrated when it refuses to at as an extention of the US government.


And yes the UN is a joke that seems to think it can boss around the United States

By that statement it could be argued that the USA is a joke that seems to think it can boss around everyone else. I don't think this is true, and it is true that the USA does do good in the world. However no where near what it could, should do. You have the ability to solve so many problems, but wont.

The UN does an awful lot of good in the world. Feeding people in poor countries for one. The UN is by far the nearest there is to a "force for good" in this world. Dont knock it.

[dough]

Originally posted by StarHawk

Thanks... No I dont have a black and white sense of the world there is good and evil in all countries

Funny guy.

[zenogias]

I find it funny that people hate the U.N., when it's the only open international forum in the world (open meaning that it isn't dedicated to some specific cause) and does, in fact, do a lot of good in the world. U.N. agencies coordinate relief efforts, provide channels for international aid, conduct studies and issue recommendations about national and international crises, and even provide military force -- many peacekeeping operations have been successes, but only the dismal failures get any press here in America, and then only until some newer and more sensational news story comes along.

Thing is, the U.N. members are going to be bastards U.N. or no. At least with the U.N. we have an easy way of dealing with them and establishing some method of stopping their excesses. The problem with the U.N. is that it has no enforcement power and it's most powerful member *cough*America*cough* refuses to play nice because, half the time, U.N. resolutions will affect us in negative ways.

Did you know, for instance, that any form of polution control resolutions inevitably concentrate on the military, one of the biggest polluting organizations in the world? And who has a big-ass military that consumes massive amounts of resources?

That's right: the U.S.

Military defense aside, we pull out because they often specifically target us (not that the same pollution controls won't affect every other military). What's worse: we don't even admit that that's the truth, we cover it up with some sort of excuse (the latest being that the accords concentrate more on industrialized nations than third world nations).

[dmille]

Originally posted by EchoEffect
[B]The USA is a member of the UN, it joined the orginzation, the HQ is in New York, the USA sits on the security council.....the least that the UN can ask is that the USA pays its membership fee.


And the least the UN can do is acknowledge the fact that the U.S. provides much of their political/military clout, and a majority of their economic support in other ways. Who is constantly forgiving loans that third world nations can't repay? oh, the US.



It increasingly seems that the USA only listens to the UN when i suits them. They consider themselves above the United Nations, and get frustrated when it refuses to at as an extention of the US government.

It would be nice if they actually appreciated the work the US does for them, instead of using US resources to attack US interests (this happens because of other member nations, not the UN structure).

The UN itself is a money vaccume, and the US insisted on reforms before it payed (though it has now paid anyway). The UN has more red tape than the US government. That says something, and its not good.



By that statement it could be argued that the USA is a joke that seems to think it can boss around everyone else. I don't think this is true, and it is true that the USA does do good in the world. However no where near what it could, should do. You have the ability to solve so many problems, but wont.

UN peacekeeping efforts rely on US military strength and transport capabilities, US intervention and US economic aid. But the US shouldn't have a say of course.



The UN does an awful lot of good in the world. Feeding people in poor countries for one. The UN is by far the nearest there is to a "force for good" in this world. Dont knock it.

Which country/organization suplied the most aid to Afghanistan before September 11th? the UN? nope. The United States of America.

But of course, in the eyes of US-bashers, we in the US really use our economic aid to try to take over the world. we don't care about the starving people themselves...


And gee God forbid I actually say I respect my country and would die if it called me to a just war.

Technically, you don't have the right to decide which wars you serve in. Thats why you vote for the canidates you believe will make the best choices, but being a fair-weather citizen is dangerous. I'm not saying there are wars I don't/wouldn't support, but technically, its not up to you at all.
dmille, a proud American.

[EchoEffect]

The US can afford to pay the most, not all countries have the money and resorces of the USA. They simply can't give as much as the USA does.


UN peacekeeping efforts rely on US military strength and transport capabilities, US intervention and US economic aid

Yes, it does. It also relies on military strength, transport capabilities, intervention and economic aid from all its other member countries. The USA contributes more....why? because they have more to give. Iceland couldn't give a peace keeping operation 2 aircraft carriers, thousands of troops, transport planes and ships however much they wanted to.


But the US shouldn't have a say of course.

It does have a say, its called the UN Security Council.


Which country/organization suplied the most aid to Afghanistan before September 11th? the UN? nope. The United States of America

Yes, US policy towards Afghanistan over the past 30 years has been nothing but concern for the Afghan people :wtf:

Ironic that isnt it, because they probably also supplied the most weapons as well.


we don't care about the starving people themselves

I am sure that the vast majority of the US public care about starving people, and do want to do something to help them. However the US government does not do as much as it could, and it does use its economic power to influence countries for their own gain.

[StarHawk]

Oh yeah I guess your right there Dmille: I should clarify what I meant that does sound a bit vague now that I reread it.

If the United States tried to draft me to fight in a war against say some country that is just living in peace all by its self not doing any harm to anyone and all. Well if the US told me to go kill them for no reason I would move to Canada :-).
But your right it relies on the people of this country to vote for a political body that they beleive would not make such decisions. And being disloyal to the US just because they did not pass a bill you wanted passed now that is a bad thing.

And I couldnt agree more with you Dmille. The United Nations makes the United States do everything for it they just take the credit for the good things that happen.
The United Nations peacekeeping is a sham too the United States provides most of the military Umph behind their politcal speach yet the United Nations is hardly recognized and while people are going "Oh thank you United Nations you saved our country" they are going "Go to hell united states we hate you motherfu%kers" I mean give me a break people.

Oh and on the subject of Somalia I looked up a little bit more on the subject. and guess what that was a United Nations baby not a United States project we just went there with the UN peacekeeping forces and we pulled out for several reasons.
1. The UN provided no aid to the US ground forces in fact when Task Force Ranger was attacked by thousands of Somali[sp?] gunman the United Nations would not realease the UNITED STATES armored vehichles from their patrols for almost a full day, and by time the armored column arrived what would have been a low scale fight to get in retreave the rangers and get out turned into a massive battle where dozens of US soldiers were wounded and 18 were killed. ANd who knows how many Somalis [sp?] could have been "saved" if the UN had just released those vehichles when the US first called for aid. Then the jerkoffs made it sound like THEY rescued the US forces from a US mistake.

2. The United Nations was pulling out but basically giving out orders for US forces to stay around and act like roadbumps while they left and kept face while the US ended up looking bad because of many nasty firefights with Idids gunmen.
And it was not just the US that suffered because of UN red tape 24 soldiers from Pakistan were killed by Mohamad Idids militia but the UN DID NOTHING! and that is why Pakistan pulled out [dont blame em one bit.] The UN would not let them do anything and would tied the hands of the forces in Somalia.

3. If the United Nations had allowed the Marine Corps to stay in the country instead of pulling them out and replacing them with lightly armed peacekeepers the situation would NOT have escalated to the shitstorm it later became because the marines would have capture Idid and not have had to wait for UN permission.

If you guys have never heard of Task Force Ranger I suggest you look it up its an interesting and sad story. Hundreds of Somali people died but I hold no simpathy for them heres why:
CHILDREN WERE SHOOTING AT US TROOPERS, ASWELL AS WOMEN, AND MEN!! And women would use act as shields so the men could get a clear shot at the US troops. So no I dont hold simpathy for them. I hold simpathy torwards the families of those 18 US soldiers that died trying to free the same idiots that were shooting at them from that basterd Idid. Alright I also hold slight simpathy torwards the younger children that were shooting at the US troops because they were basically forced into it by their stupid parents. you can call me whatever you want for saying that but its just how I feel.

And Somalia is not the only place where the UN tied the hands of US and other forces Bosnia was another case where they tied the hands of the United States forces and bitched anythime the US accidentally killed a civilian in a firefight with the Bosnian bad guys [cant remeber quite whom they were though?].

[Edit] And I just love how some of those countries WE WERE FEEDING turn around and start killing us off like Somalia Bosnia and others!.

Also the United States is shoved around by the UN I mean losing your seat on the Human Rights part is ridiculious especailly when you lose it to the countries Dmille listed.

[EchoEffect]

The US does get recognition.


and which other countries have suplied aircraft carriers exactly?

Not many countires have aircraft carriers.


We've certainly helped feed people (or at least more than the rest of the world did) and we helped them defend themselves (sadly, in retrospect) from an immensly unpopular Soviet invasion.

The US did that to stop the spread of communism and to further its realm of influence over the countries in that area. Yes it did help to stop a invasion by the USSR. But not to protect the people of Afghanistan. Don't even bother to pretend it was a humanitarian mission.



Yup. We suplied the Taliban with the Soviet tanks they were using, the AK's, and the aircraft they never had a chance to use (Migs). or perhaps the Soviets left it behind.

I was talking about the weapons used during the afore mentiond war.


Its primary responsibility is the welfare of the American people however.

And thats how it should be. Doesn't mean the US has to be quite so arrogant and assured of its own complete amazingness.

[StarHawk]

Not many countires have aircraft carriers.
Great Britain, United States, Russia, China I think has a few old types, and a few others. The United States doesn't just provide Aircraft carriers it provides air support ground troops and supplies for most UN operations.



The US did that to stop the spread of communism and to further its realm of influence over the countries in that area. Yes it did help to stop a invasion by the USSR. But not to protect the people of Afghanistan. Don't even bother to pretend it was a humanitarian mission.

Oh please see these people is what I called the damned annoying people that claim the United States only does good for its own interests. First of all yes it was to prevent the spread of the Russian Empire gee now why would we want to do that lets see:
1. Tortured any who dont agree with Communism
2. Invaded a country that did not want anything to do with their government.
3. Uh complete loss of all human freedomes and rights.
Nope I don't see a reason we should have stopped the spread of Communism do you guys?
But we helped them with food supplies long after the war ended we even supplied food during the Taliban regime so YES IT WAS PARTLY A HUMANITARIAN MISSION!



I was talking about the weapons used during the afore mentiond war.

Gee now why would we want to supply some undertech nation who for the most part used swords and even muskets with modern weapons to withstand the invasion from a nation that at the time had one of the largest and best equiped military powers in the world?




And thats how it should be. Doesn't mean the US has to be quite so arrogant and assured of its own complete amazingness.
We are not so damned assured of our own amazingness I mean we are the first to admit our nation has flaws well the first aside from European countries who OH WAIT are more self assured and arrogant then the US is because they poke fun at the US and its scandals when they have had plenty of their own. OH WOW YOU MEAN OTHER COUNTRIES ARE SELF ASSURED OH THE HORROR.

Yup thats right Echo Erupeans and others are self assured too

[EchoEffect]

I was using air craft carriers as an example.

I wasnt defending communism. I was saying that the US stepped in in afghanistan to stop Communism, not to help the people there.


Gee now why would we want to supply some undertech nation who for the most part used swords and even muskets with modern weapons to withstand the invasion from a nation that at the time had one of the largest and best equiped military powers in the world?

To stop another power from gaining the advantage in a world wide cold war. Not to help the people of Afghanistan.


who OH WAIT are more self assured and arrogant then the US is because they poke fun at the US

*says Starhawk poking fun at the European countries*

The US is far more assured of its self and more fanaticaly patrotic than any european country i can think of.

[matt_tone9]

Originally posted by dmille
Which country/organization suplied the most aid to Afghanistan before September 11th? the UN? nope. The United States of America.

of course that wasn't the only thing the U.S dropped on Afghanistan, does the word "grasscutter" mean anything to you? You can't possibly think those things were humane... oh hang on *thinks of Vietnam, napalm bombs*

btw, has anyone heard the next line off attack the good old caring U.S of A is thinking of using? Small scale nuclear bombs, for "surpising situations"

but you're right, the U.S has done a lot for the rest of the world.

[Mac_Bug]

Who is constantly forgiving loans that third world nations can't repay? oh, the US.


Dmille you must've been practicing this sort of thing in school, I think 'can't repay' sayz it all.


It would be nice if they actually appreciated the work the US does for them, instead of using US resources to attack US interests (this happens because of other member nations, not the UN structure).

Since you did all these work for us, we'll just overlook your faults!

At least you aren't going to make stupid comments like some of your fellow countrymen else where who claim the world should worship America cause if if it weren't for you, we'd all be space dust.


UN peacekeeping efforts rely on US military strength and transport capabilities, US intervention and US economic aid. But the US shouldn't have a say of course.


Get over it Dmille, there are what, 200 nations in the UN? I thought you loved the way your representatives are setup, how come I don't hear complaints from Texas about Rhode Island being a 'state'?


Which country/organization suplied the most aid to Afghanistan before September 11th? the UN? nope. The United States of America.


omfg you were feeding the taliban and al quaeda forces!


So because the US is wealthy, it should have to dish out more without any recogniton for doing so?

Oh wow Dmille, the rest of the world are soooo selfish! wahhh! Well look at you!


Its just rather nice when its appreciated.


Such as always begin thanking the US before a bashing session so one may never find fault in the US of A because we eat out of your bowl?


Yeah. Its always fun getting thrown off the Human Rights Comittee by the likes of Syria and Sudan.


democracy!


The United Nations peacekeeping is a sham too the United States provides most of the military Umph behind their politcal speach yet the United Nations is hardly recognized and while people are going "Oh thank you United Nations you saved our country" they are going "Go to hell united states we hate you motherfu%kers" I mean give me a break people.


I wonder how they greet American troops under UN flag


The UN provided no aid to the US ground forces in fact when Task Force Ranger was attacked by thousands of Somali[sp?] gunman the United Nations would not realease the UNITED STATES armored vehichles from their patrols for almost a full day, and by time the armored column arrived what would have been a low scale fight to get in retreave the rangers and get out turned into a massive battle where dozens of US soldiers were wounded and 18 were killed. ANd who knows how many Somalis [sp?] could have been "saved" if the UN had just released those vehichles when the US first called for aid. Then the jerkoffs made it sound like THEY rescued the US forces from a US mistake.


Uh, yeah, assuming Black Hawk Down is remotely close to the truth, I think you need to check on your version

yada yada gotta go to work

[Shin]

Observation:
<Shin> should the government serve the people or should the people serve the government?
<dmille> it's more of the latter
<dmille> serving the government is the surest way of serving the people

Analysis:
1:
Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. (Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936)
2:
Liberty has never come from government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance.
--Woodrow Wilson

Observation:
dmille (to EchoEffect): But of course, in the eyes of US-bashers, we in the US really use our economic aid to try to take over the world.
dmille (to StarHawk): I am somewhat of an imperialist, but more in the economic sense than the military-political one.

Analysis:
Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
--Benito Mussolini

Observation:
1:
dmille (to Shin): You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive
2:
dmille (to Shin): I despised the Taliban long before most Americans knew it existed
3:
dmille (to StarHawk): No, probably not... you're merely a fool.

Analysis:
This is the epitaph I want on my tomb: "Here lies one of the most intelligent animals who ever appeared on the face of the earth."
--Benito Mussolini

Observation:
1:
dmille (to Shin): I think the principle that angers you most is my strong belief that the U.S. government's primary responsibility is the interests and saftey of United States citizens, and only after that are they responsible to the remainder of the world. While it is the duty of each United States citizen to remember that he or she is a member of the "world community" and thus be compelled to act for the good of humanity, U.S. citizens must also remember which flag to salute.
2:
dmille (to EchoEffect): The US government cares a lot too. Its primary responsibility is the welfare of the American people however.

Analysis:
All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.
--Benito Mussolini[SIZE]

Observation: [SIZE=1]
<dmille> the US will never become fascist as there are checks and balances in this thing we call the constitution


Analysis:
One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils of this world are to be cured by legislation.
--Thomas Reed

DISCLAIMER:
Although the impression may be that I despise dmille, this is far from the truth. I have, to the shock of many people, repeatedly insisted that dmille is a good kid.

*hugglez milly

[dmille]

1. [20:32] <Shin|tweaking> i have paraphrased (ps, this is real, not a shin quote)
2. All quotes are taken totally out of context.

Thus, shin facist-slander attack fails miserably. I shall refute later, though now I must go laugh at Shin for trying to convince people that he actually had logs of the conversation.

[Shin]

Paraphrasing is valid. When dmille manages to give me a log of the actual conversation this will show that my paraphrase is actually kind to him.

For reference:
http://www.guidestone.com/files/temp/suppression_of_evidence.txt

<dmille> shin, I'm removing all comments I made about other people first

Nice tactic though. Ignore the rest of the post and try to discredit the author.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by EchoEffect
However the US government does not do as much as it could...

Give me a fish and you feed me for a day, teach me to fish and you feed me for a lifetime.

[Shin]

How convenient.

[StarHawk]

Uh, yeah, assuming Black Hawk Down is remotely close to the truth, I think you need to check on your version

Uh Excuse me I dont know what the movie says Oh gee have you bothered going to look up the REAL STORY I mean that is a MOVIE and they do take something called DRAMATIC LISENCE. You are an idiot if you take everything the movies say for truth. They were interveiwing several people from the REAL event including the Commander of Task Force Ranger. The United Nations WOULD NOT PROVED AIR SUPPORT or release the armoured column to aid the Ranger/Delta Force strike team. The US forces were left abandoned by the United Nations for almost a full day. And I find it conveniant how you ignore the thing about Pakistani forces being told not to fight back after their men were killed. Or how you ignore the fact that IF THE UN PROVIDED THE ARMOURED COLOUMN THE US REQUESTED IN THE FIRST PLACE the situation would have ended with far less dead.


Task Force Ranger had some Humvees but no APCs, Fighting Vehichles, or Tanks. They also had no Gunship or fighter air cover to aid their defense and retreat out of the city.


AND NO YOU IDIOT we did not give food to the taliban or al queda we gave it to Afghanistan hoping it would get to the people it obviously did not all get to the people.

And they greet them well as long as they act as the UNs little puppy dogs but the second the UN is out of the uniforms the US troops are shot at and killed. Bosnia Samolia anyone.

And Uh No I am not making fun of Europeans I am pointing out the fact that they seem to find themselves superior to everyone I mean they poke fun at US politics scandals and the like, You dont see in US news papers about who the queen is screwing this week now do you?
You also dont see in US news papers studies that call Europeans arrogant, easy to enrage, and various other things now do you.
So ask yourself now whom is the more arrogant?

Oh and if we were so easy to enrage our country would have splattered several countries by now so dont even get me started on that thing.

[Uzod I]

While your aid is not unappreciated, Matt, I am taking a much more contraversial view than that ;)

Originally posted by Liberator:
Then you have not seen true evil. You have not seen those that kill for nothing other than their own sadistic pleasure. You have not seen the slaughtering of millions of people simply because they happen to be of a different religious faith. You have not felt that cold blackness engulf your heart as you go someplace you know you shouldn't be. We live in a society that has forgotten the face of evil as well as good. Is there abosolute right and absolute wrong, the answer is an unqualified YES!
You apperently do not see the full depth to which I am going with that statement.
A person who kills for sadistic pleasure is clearly insane in the values of the current society, thus his opinions clearly do not mesh with our own. In his opinion, he is not evil. In his opinion, he is doing good for the only person who he feels that he has a need to serve, himself. Does this make him evil? By our opinion, he is. but in his opinion? Perhaps not.
The same goes for those who kill for their religious beliefs. In their opinion, killing those of a different belief is not evil, it is necessary, perhaps it is even good, because their god or whatnot says it is.

There is no good or evil, only opinions.

[Shin]

Considering I was in IRC and waiting for the logs before my last post on 2:59...

Last edited by dmille on 03-10-2002 at 03:02 AM

dmille, you said you were going offline? Surely 3 lines of text won't take 3 minutes to send.

And no wonder you think paraphrasing twists words:

"If you want to quote people, lets quote eTombotron calling Americans Nazis (he's an American btw). Much better reading... "

Your method of paraphrasing says that eT called himself a Nazi.:argh:

[StarHawk]

Well people that murder for "religious" reasons are fools I mean the first thing God says in most religions is "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" I mean people who use that excuse are obviously not true to beleif in God or they would not kill someone for no reason other then their religion.
I mean I get a real kick out of those idiot Far Right "Christians' [and I use the term loosely] That claim they are bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors and preagnent women because God said they could. I mean GOD DOES NOT WANT YOU KILLING ANYONE FOR THAT REASON! I mean good greif dont those retards realize by killing the preagnent women they are also killing the baby they were killing the mother to save?
I don't exactly like abortions but I am not going to kill the doctors or the women. anyways end of rant :)


And Shin no offense but your post just confused me so I aint even going to try to respond one way or another
:ninja:

[dmille]

Give me a fish and you feed me for a day, teach me to fish and you feed me for a lifetime.

The US has a history of helping farmers in poor countries, providing them with seeds, and even buying the food they produce if it can not be sold locally. It is meant to help their economies thrive and keep them from growing drugs. Criticize the policy if you will...


Dmille you must've been practicing this sort of thing in school, I think 'can't repay' sayz it all.
Funny... they're unable to reply loans but they (or at least some) still find money to finance their paramilitary forces. Facinating, isn't it. I don't want them to pay it back if they can't, I support forgivinig loans if forcing them to pay it back would destroy their economy. Thats foreign aid, and it can be a good thing. It would be nice if people remembered that when they accuse the US of doing nothing to help the rest of the world however...



Since you did all these work for us, we'll just overlook your faults!

Did I ever ask that the US's faults be overlooked? No. What I'm asking for is recognition of the good the US does, and the countries it has saved (Europe after WWII for instance). Criticism is fine. Omitting the fact that the US is the world's most generous nation while criticizing the US is one sided, stupid, and unacceptable.



At least you aren't going to make stupid comments like some of your fellow countrymen else where who claim the world should worship America cause if if it weren't for you, we'd all be space dust.
Of course not. Civilization thrived without the United States once and will do so again one day. However, the US is a major force for "good" in today's world. Fair evaluation is all I ask. Many here just harp on the US's faults and assert that it does not help the rest of the world. This is blatantly incorrect.


Get over it Dmille, there are what, 200 nations in the UN? I thought you loved the way your representatives are setup, how come I don't hear complaints from Texas about Rhode Island being a 'state'?

Texas doesn't take risks no one appreciates to save Rhode Island's ass. And if it does, it gets something more out of it than its own young men and women returning home in body bags. I support peacekeeping and infastructure building, but at least recognize it and get off the damned "the US is evil and does no good" platform. I'm expecting "Great Satan" comments next from some of you.


omfg you were feeding the taliban and al quaeda forces!

Well, the food had to be distributed through the Taliban. Should we have sent in troops to distribute it? Then you would have complained that we were invading the country and hurting people. Helping the rest of the world is a lose-lose situaton with you around...



Oh wow Dmille, the rest of the world are soooo selfish! wahhh! Well look at you!

I think the US has a responsibility to contribute more than poor nations, of course, because we are wealthier. However, we certainly don't deserve to have our embassies and ships abroad bombed and our citizens terrorized for doing so. As I've said, I fully support helping "third world" nations in any way possible. It would be nice however, if much of the rest of the world stopped looking for excuses to criticize the US and evaluated it fairly, as they certainly aren't doing so now.




democracy!

Revenge. And a "democracy" in which a bunch of autocratic dictatorships who shoot anyone who says "democracy" at home is ironic at best. There are countries you should be criticizing before you criticize the US, but its ok to be a despotic third-world dictator as long as you're not flying the flag of the United States.

http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/UNST001.GIF

[Shin]

Still waiting for the log.

Or have we resorted to Plan B so soon?

Plan A: Discredit poster for lack of verbatim logs. Insinuate that true logs will exonerate self. Delay in providing said logs.

Plan B: Ignore anything ever happened. Make long post listing virtues of forgiveness, generosity and patriotism in an attempt to divert attention.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
--Samuel Johnson

[StarHawk]

Thank you Dmille. I said many of the things your saying now and got slammed so good luck in not getting slammed in the process of defending your nations honor.

The United States will last a long time most likely unless something drastic happens, and it will most likely play a large role in the future of this world. Basically We're here to stay for along time because the United States has brought stability and control to many countries across the world.

And if you ask me Europe should be a little more appreciative considering the United States saved their asses in WWII and they still owe us a whole lot of money. And I love it we constantly have to pay down our debts do to whining from nations that should be paying us a LOT more then our debts are to them.

And I already made the point about UN peacekeeping crap if you guys bothered to pay attention to what I said. The UN abandoned our forces in Somalia and many of our citizens died defending some nation they were trying to free and stabilize. The UN has tied down the forces of the United states in many of the ops the US has taken part in.
And as I said the UN bitched about how the Task Force Ranger inflicted high civilian losses to the Samolies civilian population. And then as I said they pulled out making it look as if the evil United States had gotten its pound of flesh in lives and now decided they were done bullying around the "poor people".

I'm sorry but I don't see why United States citizens should have to be dragged through the streets in their underwear after being brutally mutilated and tortured because the thrice damned UN would not let US forces bomb the hell out of those damned Idid gunmen until they were well entrenched and more US troops had to die to dig out some of his forces while the UN again denied the united states forces the aid they needed.

If you ask me the United States should pull out of the UN and see how well they get along without us overly agressive, rude, and greedy Americans. Same thing goes with Kuwaite that wouldn't help the US when we needed airstrips to get into Afghanistan. And we saved their asses from the Iraqi army or did they forget?

[Mac_Bug]

You are an idiot if you take everything the movies say for truth.

AND NO YOU IDIOT we did not give food to the taliban or al queda we gave it to Afghanistan hoping it would get to the people it obviously did not all get to the people.

Congratulations you just gave me compelling reason to finish my rant of the day (tm), you were lucky the first time cause I had to go to work :)


The United Nations WOULD NOT PROVED AIR SUPPORT or release the armoured column to aid the Ranger/Delta Force strike team.

Yes, considering the fact that your own government disaproved of gunship support, and surely the base the team launched in had far more resourses at hand than a mere ranger/delta force strike team? What else, oh yeah, this was an strict US operation... i mean, the US basicly makes up UN might anyway.... so I mean....

UN>Secretary's office
US>Hi uh we screwed up and need your help
UN>Oh okay no problem we'll just call up our support

*puts US on hold*

*Clicks Call Savior button*

UN>Hello?
US>Hi? Well?
UN>Uh some American troops are stuck, we need you to save them for us!
US>....
US>I was just asking you!
UN>Oh shit



The US forces were left abandoned by the United Nations for almost a full day.

'abandoned'

how convinient.


And I find it conveniant how you ignore the thing about Pakistani forces being told not to fight back after their men were killed.

All UN forces are to return fire if fired upon. If you mean not to go and break peacekeeper role and start playing the justice league, bleh.


Or how you ignore the fact that IF THE UN PROVIDED THE ARMOURED COLOUMN THE US REQUESTED IN THE FIRST PLACE the situation would have ended with far less dead.

Or maybe if the Americans didn't go in the first place. Welcome to the game.


Task Force Ranger had some Humvees but no APCs, Fighting Vehichles, or Tanks. They also had no Gunship or fighter air cover to aid their defense and retreat out of the city.

That's funny it looked to me like they had at least half a dozen black hawks plus some helis packing some awsome firepower covering them while going in, and airstrikes whole night long to keep the somalis off american backs sure wasn't lacking


AND NO YOU IDIOT we did not give food to the taliban or al queda we gave it to Afghanistan hoping it would get to the people it obviously did not all get to the people.


I suppose Bin Laden should hijack a Fed Ex plane and then start dropping food packages to 911 victims houses in time for 6 months annual.


You also dont see in US news papers studies that call Europeans arrogant, easy to enrage, and various other things now do you.
So ask yourself now whom is the more arrogant?

uh, personally, I thought you fit that bill pretty good


Oh and if we were so easy to enrage our country would have splattered several countries by now so dont even get me started on that thing.

My point exactly.

Now Dmille :)


The US has a history of helping farmers in poor countries, providing them with seeds, and even buying the food they produce if it can not be sold locally. It is meant to help their economies thrive and keep them from growing drugs. Criticize the policy if you will...



Criticism is fine. Omitting the fact that the US is the world's most generous nation while criticizing the US is one sided, stupid, and unacceptable.


Oh I'm sorry, not that we should overlook them, you are faultless



I'm expecting "Great Satan" comments next from some of you.


Actually Bush was the one using 'axis of evil' and 'crusade' and 'war' and oh yes, our favorite, 'brightest beacon in the free world'. Everyone thinks Bin Laden will go to hell already, so why mention it?


Well, the food had to be distributed through the Taliban. Should we have sent in troops to distribute it? Then you would have complained that we were invading the country and hurting people. Helping the rest of the world is a lose-lose situaton with you around...


Taliban? Why? They aren't a recognized government, they are now a group of 'rebels', and apparently, they always were a group illegally in power.

Oh yeah, you are ALREADY in that country and hurting people.

Hows about you give civilian weapons so they can fight their regime themselves, of course, distribute it through the corrupt regime.


There are countries you should be criticizing before you criticize the US, but its ok to be a despotic third-world dictator as long as you're not flying the flag of the United States.


Our criticism on say, Zimbobwe doesn't really do a thing.

On US of A I'd say sure is making some dent :)

[Mac_Bug]

And I love it we constantly have to pay down our debts do to whining from nations that should be paying us a LOT more then our debts are to them

Try harder. You have just admitted debt and fault.

Learn from Dmille, just deny them all.


The UN abandoned our forces in Somalia and many of our citizens died defending some nation they were trying to free and stabilize.

I suppose you felt it such a waste to try to free and stabilize certain nations. FYI, UN consists of, uh, everybody, even you. So when 'they' were trying to free and stabilize something, it means you.


The UN has tied down the forces of the United states in many of the ops the US has taken part in.

Join the party, its an UN operation.


And as I said the UN bitched about how the Task Force Ranger inflicted high civilian losses to the Samolies civilian population.

Yeah well... I donno, 18 to 1000?


And then as I said they pulled out making it look as if the evil United States had gotten its pound of flesh in lives and now decided they were done bullying around the "poor people".


Actually I thought Bush was heading back in, scheduled next week in case Enron case start pulling down White House's pants.


I'm sorry but I don't see why United States citizens should have to be dragged through the streets in their underwear after being brutally mutilated and tortured because the thrice damned UN would not let US forces bomb the hell out of those damned Idid gunmen until they were well entrenched and more US troops had to die to dig out some of his forces while the UN again denied the united states forces the aid they needed.


I don't know, why were you in there in the first place? I'm sorry but I don't see why United States citizen should have to go in and fight those Idid gunmen when they can sit on their ass and read playboy.

When did the US of A need to listen to the UN for what to do? Suppose the Pakistani general agreed to go in immediately, what will you do tomorrow, make Pakistan a new state because now you are in some serious debt?

How dare the UN not go in immediately?!

Yeah, and what do you say when others say you are not doing enough? Course you are.

Maybe the UN thought they were pretty quick on it, after all they probably called a full assembly dragged all the ambassadors out of their beds and had a debate then voted. Just feel lucky some politician didn't try to table it till next saturday.

Okay, enough silliness.

Blame the UN. Wee, are you getting the hang of the fun those of us have blaming the US?


If you ask me the United States should pull out of the UN and see how well they get along without us overly agressive, rude, and greedy Americans

Dmille have been saying as much for the past 10 years.


Same thing goes with Kuwaite that wouldn't help the US when we needed airstrips to get into Afghanistan.

36% Kuwaites love you real good.


And we saved their asses from the Iraqi army or did they forget?

Hey, I got an idea! If it weren't for the Europeans, there wouldn't be a United States of America! Shouldn't the British generals be American heroes for losing wars? Shouldn't the religious prosecutions be applauded? After all, they were all instrumental to the creation of US of A! You americans should sit there and take EU criticism like a man, because without us, there is no you!

Hell let's thank the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor! How else was America going to save the world's ass!

Beer Shortage.

[Ben Tusi]

Well if the US told me to go kill them for no reason I would move to Canada :-).
But your right it relies on the people of this country to vote for a political body that they beleive would not make such decisions. And being disloyal to the US just because they did not pass a bill you wanted passed now that is a bad thing.

What the hell are you saying? Be a good little boy, but do whatever the Government says, no matter how twisted and apeshit insane it is? Stand up for your rights, and obey the government at the same time?

So are you going to be a freedom fighter, standing up against the iron clad fist of the US Government, but hang on to every word that the authorities say and follow it like the children followed the Pied Piper at the same bloody time?

Can anyone use this word in a sentance: Paradox.


You dont see in US news papers about who the queen is screwing this week now do you?

Maybe it's because, I don't know, she doesn't screw anyone? Am I getting warm, here?


I am not making fun of Europeans I am pointing out the fact that they seem to find themselves superior to everyone

Is this man a saint, or am I wrong? Look at him, the total rational anaylisis of Europeans, without resorting to Mawkish hate or steriotypes. No, just pure science was involved here. Notice that he is not being the least bit Pompous, and did not generalize one bit. Every single European is evil and hates America, according to this guy. What is the most logical thing to do? Be as rational as this guy and hate them right back.

All he is saying is "I don't hate them, I just think they suck."

And on a final note...

http://www.gamespy.com/interviews/may01/british/2.jpg

ONO! It's Lord British! Run for the hills, StarHawk, before he starts making fun of Americans and be arrogent, like all of his European chummies.

[Uzod I]

Actually Bush was the one using 'axis of evil' and 'crusade' and 'war' and oh yes, our favorite, 'brightest beacon in the free world'. Everyone thinks Bin Laden will go to hell already, so why mention it?
Please avoid using our own worst mistake against us.

-Uzod I, waiting for all those right-wing nutcase Bush supporters to come out of the woodwork :crazy:

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Uzod I

-Uzod I, waiting for all those right-wing nutcase Bush supporters to come out of the woodwork :crazy:

Well here I am!:cylon:

I suppose you'd rather Slick Willy or The Tree who walks like a man, Al Gore were running the country? :argh:

Seriously, GW Bush is the right man for the job or else he wouldn't be there. Let's not have this "Hanging Chad" garbage.

[Uzod I]

Grabs fishing rod and starts reeling
"We've got a big one here!" :crazy:

Seroiusly, tho, I don't think either Bush or Gore would be wonderful in the Oval Office. It's not surprising that when having to choose between Gore :cylon: and Bush :dunce: the competition was very tight.

I, personally, would have voted for McCain, but I'm a dedicated Democrat, and couldn't vote for him during the primarys (plus, I think I was still underage then.)

[StarHawk]

Yea they had littlebird helos which are not dedicated gunships they are reconisance craft.

The UN would not let the United States own damned forces go in there and get our own men out.

And actually it was somewhere along the lines of 18 to 800 but
I have no simpathy for those Samolies that died I stated why already so go look it up in my past posts.

And Its the European Governments that criticize everything the United States does I think its stupid cause they act as if they have no problems that they should worry about unless its our problems.

I think you should be loyal and respect your country as long as it is a government governed by the people not by some dictator.

The United States did not need the UN to save them in that sense they wanted additional US forces to be deployed to aid them the United Nations twiddled their thumbs and then let the US forces get out of their bases and go do something for their comrades almost a full day after the original request was made.

Their were no fighters covering the retreat they had Littlebird helocopters that had a machine gun and some rockets no where near the firepower a gunship would have had. The pilots of these helos even resorted to useing their MP5s to cover the guys on the ground.

Uh no we should not be playing lap dog to the United Nations we're not its pet bitch the United States army should be allowed to act as the United States army and not be forced to act as the United Nations peacekeeping corps considering they dont seem to keep much peace to me. At least allowing an army to fight back and hunt down and destroy the guys shooting at them would make sense.

The Pakistani troops were FORBIDDEN TO RETURN FIRE For risk of hitting civilians. And finally when the US got in there they fought back and were made to look evil because of it all they would show is how many people the US soldiers killed they made it look like we were the bad guys just grinding our teeth on the bodies of those gunmen.
Somali women were using themselves and their babies as shields during many firefights because they KNEW the UN would not allow counter fire under such circumstances. God forbid those Army Rangers returned fire and hit some of those women the horror I have no sympathy for those women what so ever. I have sympathy for their babies who had no choice but to act as little bullet proof shields.

Uh heres the thing even if there were a scandal in the British goverment you'd never know about it because its kept hush hush you know they forget that freedom of the Press thing when it comes to royalty :-).

I mean sure we have had bad polititians Slick Willy anyone? How about Nixon "I am not a crook" LOL we have had our humdingers before but we admit it and thus get criticized for it.

And the Purpose of Task Force Ranger was to secure the Adid head militiamen and eliminate their clan so that the other clans could finally unite and stop the damned wars. We did not get adid what happened Uh Somalia is currently a nation in name only you have loads of clans that were talking about peace with one another either at war or destroyed by Idid and one another.

And yea we owe our existance to Europe but we were also smart enough to cut our nationial unity with England LOL :-) see that can be turned around to if you take it out of context and you know darn well alot of the stuff you said was out of context.

And what the hell are you saying about the food thing with Osoma Bin Laden highjacking a fed ex plane?

[Dragon Lord]

About us (europeans) bashing only the USA: it is not like you are the only ones we bash, most european countries bash about al their neighbouring countries, you could say it's part of our culture.
An example: if you ask a person in my tiny country (the Netherlands) what they think about the belgians: they'r morons which aren't able tho speak normally, the french: they are the biggest complainers in the world and can't speak a single foreign language. The germans: can't drive (allways speeding, extremely rude), they only drink beer and eat sausages and they have the habit of digging holes in our beaches turning it into a crater landscape. Etc. It's not that we don't like those countries, it's just normal to bash them a little for fun.

And a little yoke I just found on another forum:

Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for six days. Eventually, Michael the archangel
found him, resting on the seventh day. He inquired of God, "Where have you been?"

God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds, "Look Michael,look what I've made." Archangel Michael looked puzzled and said, "What is it?"
"It's a planet," replied God, "and I've put LIFE on it. I'm going to call it Earth and it's going to be a great place of balance."

"Balance?" inquired Michael, still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of Earth, "For example, Northern Europe
will be a place of great opportunity and wealth while Southern Europe is going to be poor; the Middle East over there will be a hot spot. Over there I've placed a continent of white people and over there is a continent of black people,"

God continued, pointing to different countries. "This one will be extremely hot and arid while this one will be very cold and covered in ice."

The Archangel, impressed by Gods work, then pointed to a large landmass in the top corner and asked, "What's that one?"

"Ah," said God. "That's Canada, the most glorious place on Earth. There are beautiful mountains, lakes, rivers, streams and an exquisite coastline. The people from Canada are going to be modest,intelligent and humorous and they're going to be found traveling the world. They'll be extremely sociable, hardworking and high achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats and carriers of peace. I'm also going to give them super-human, undefeatable ice hockey players who will be admired and feared by all who come across them."

Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then proclaimed; "What about balance, God? You said there would be BALANCE!"

God replied wisely. "Wait until you see the loud-mouth bastards I'm putting next to them...."

(And it is a JOKE don't flame me for it, it is just for fun!)

[EchoEffect]

Damn time differences, go to bed and the whole topic moves on a couple of pages.



Uh heres the thing even if there were a scandal in the British goverment you'd never know about it because its kept hush hush you

You right, that when there is a scandal in the British government that the world does not tend to hear about it. This is usualy becuase the types of scandal are extremely boring compared to ones in the US government. They are usualy thing like "Ono! an MP lent another one some money and didnt tell anyone". (actual scandal, the MP who was lent the money was forced to quit, not becuause he took the money, but becuase he didnt say he had been given it). Compared to The whole monica incident, thats pretty dull. Also scandals in the UK governmenr are less likely to affect the world than those within the US government.


you know they forget that freedom of the Press thing when it comes to royalty

Nearly every day the tabloids have some scandal related to the royal family. Papers like the Sun and the Daily Star live off Royal Scandal. ;)

[dmille]

You right, that when there is a scandal in the British government that the world does not tend to hear about it. This is usualy becuase the types of scandal are extremely boring compared to ones in the US government. They are usualy thing like "Ono! an MP lent another one some money and didnt tell anyone". (actual scandal, the MP who was lent the money was forced to quit, not becuause he took the money, but becuase he didnt say he had been given it). Compared to The whole monica incident, thats pretty dull. Also scandals in the UK governmenr are less likely to affect the world than those within the US government.


Or certain people taking drugs. The United States press is far more free than the British one, which can be legally prevented from publishing stories in the name of national security. The US press spouts all the information it recieves, even if, and especially if, it endangers national security.


About us (europeans) bashing only the USA: it is not like you are the only ones we bash, most european countries bash about al their neighbouring countries, you could say it's part of our culture.

Funny. I don't see the French getting pissed every time the British run a military exercise. DeGaul should have been killed at a young age...


As I was saying, the operation was US only. Any troop stationed there for the purpose of peacekeeping falls under the UN and if you really, really wanted to? You'd tell UN go to hell and pack your bags and go rescue your own guys.

UN mandate, US troops in the area weren't released. Furthermore, if we had launched airstrikes to provide cover, we would have been bitched at the next day for hitting civilians. I'm opposed to killing civilians of course, but if US troops are in danger, I'm for going in and saving them, whatever the cost.


-Uzod I, waiting for all those right-wing nutcase Bush supporters to come out of the woodwork

I'm more of a McCain supporter, though I think they would have made a good President/VP pair.

Mac: Paying farmers not to grow drugs is acceptable. Perhaps we should just go in and kill them, you're right. Or we should let them grow drugs and sell them to people who'd let our citizens have them. brilliance...




Taliban? Why? They aren't a recognized government, they are now a group of 'rebels', and apparently, they always were a group illegally in power.

Oh yeah, you are ALREADY in that country and hurting people.

Hows about you give civilian weapons so they can fight their regime themselves, of course, distribute it through the corrupt regime.

If we had armed them, they'd have killed people, and we'd be getting complaints about the US interfering with other nations, and building up their own power, etc. Lose-lose.

Mac, you're incorrect. I support threatening to leave (and if needed, leaving) the UN unless reforms are made. I still support peacekeeping, but would much rather it be under NATO auspices where military officers, as opposed to red tape loving idiots are in charge of operations.




Hey, I got an idea! If it weren't for the Europeans, there wouldn't be a United States of America! Shouldn't the British generals be American heroes for losing wars? Shouldn't the religious prosecutions be applauded? After all, they were all instrumental to the creation of US of A! You americans should sit there and take EU criticism like a man, because without us, there is no you!


If it wasn't for the Romans, you wouldn't have British civilization either. You should have surrendered to the Italians in WWII, because you owe them, don't you? Also, we should then have let you take care of yourselves and not helped save you guys from the Germans.

Foolishness :/

[TheBob]

All nation in the world=crap. The US just happens to be one of the least crappiest.

[Ben Tusi]

And Its the European Governments that criticize everything the United States does I think its stupid cause they act as if they have no problems that they should worry about unless its our problems.

There, there, boy, shut up (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=31312#post31312).

[EchoEffect]

Funny. I don't see the French getting pissed every time the British run a military exercise

There are enough jokes in Europe about other European nations to fill a very big hole. There is more anti-European thoughts in Britain than there are anti-American.

The fact is that most British people make a lot of jokes about the US, and have a lot of problems with it. However that is nothing compared to most people's distrust of Europe.

So yes, Europe pokes fun at the US, we also poke a lot more fun at each other. We poke more fun at more people (including ourselves) than you can poke a stick at.

[StarHawk]

LOL that joke was funny :) I mean I have to admit it it was just too funny :) I am going to copy that down thanks.

And Ben Tusi why don't you shut up I told you already I dont mean all of Europe that is why I said "THE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS THAT CONSTANTLY INSULT US" not "ALL OF EUROPE IS AGAINST US!" And if you must know I was thinking far more about Franch government officials then Britain when I made that comment.

Thanks Dmille it seems people don't beleive that the UN pulled the asshole maneuver in Somalia unless they are getting told by more then one person.

And the Pakistani army took only a small part in the Armored column from what I recall and that was of their own accord not UN orders. I think it was primarily a brigade of the United States army. Yes we did move to a Pakistani controlled stadium why. Lets see when its the only safe place YOU GO THERE! you don't sit back and go Gee well the Pakistani forces are offering us help let's just uh not do it. The Pakistani troops also were not acting under UN permission really they were acting on their own when they offered the US help. And the Pakistani soldiers lost 24 of their friends and comrades not long before so is that any suprise they chose to help out. Uh NO!

Air strikes! do you not realize that if the United States had launched devoted airstrikes that city would no longer be here and you would have had tens of thousands of dead?
Yes 18 soldiers killed 1,000 or more Somali is that so much of a suprise to you? US troopers are much better marksmen, the Little Bird pilots had mega balls when they came to aid their ground based comrades. And many of the dead also came from the Armored column's advance into the city then its exit from the city. And I already said lets see NO SIMPATHY FOR THE SOMALI's that died except for the babies that had no options whatever.

And the Pakistani forces were not to happy about being told not to shoot back at the guys that were killing them and nothing "Came of that" because the Pakistani were not about to turn aginst the UN.

Like I said we should leave the UN because it is holding the United States back by third world or terrorist nations which is ridiculious. I mean the United States taking orders from Zimbobwe just seems so wrong. Just like I dont think Great Britain would like taking orders from Uzbekistan. I mean Great Britain is a proud nation and a strong nation that should not take orders from some punky little third world country. Neither should the United States.

The United Nation infringes on the Soverignty of each nation within it everytime it suits their purposes. THEY boss around forces belonging to a soverign power. THEY give out orders that are bullshit [I.E. gee boys don't shoot back you might hit the women that are using themselves as shields]. I dont like civvies dying either but if you have a gun and you are shooting at a soldier in the United States armed forces YOUR NOT A CIVVIE ANYMORE you [i]are a combatant plain and simple.

[EchoEffect]

I mean the United States taking orders from Zimbobwe just seems so wrong

True, but so is Zimbobwe taking orders from the United States.

[StarHawk]

Exactly ECHO THANK YOU! that is exactly what I meant it is wrong that any soverign nation should be bossed around by any other nation especially one that is on the global chart inferior. That is why I said the United Nations infringes on soverign nation's rights as soverign nations everytime it suits them. I mean its rather embarrasing getting shoved around by a country a tenth of your size you know :D

[Ben Tusi]

THEY give out orders that are bullshit [I.E. gee boys don't shoot back you might hit the women that are using themselves as shields]. I dont like civvies dying either but if you have a gun and you are shooting at a soldier in the United States armed forces YOUR NOT A CIVVIE ANYMORE you are a combatant plain and simple.

Arn't we missing someone here? The question we have to ask ourselves here is: is an innocent life a reasonble price for retaliation? Sure, the guy who is using the woman as a sheild is shooting at americans, and is considered a combatant, but there is this really "stupid, bullshit" thing called "Colateral Damage" which means damage done to the non-combatants, and there are extremely irrational and dumbass rules put out by the UN that try to reduce the loss of life. How stupid is that OMFG GG UN is trying to save innocent lives that just happened to get in the crossfire! HOW STUPID! But, I guess human life isn't really a big deal if they are not Americans. You be the judge.

[EchoEffect]

If a country is bossed about by the UN then it is being asked to do things by the rest of the world. Not by one individual country.

The UN wants weapons inspectors in Iraq, Iraq is being bossed around by the world. Is this fair?

[dmille]

Alright, Shin, you wanted a response?

Lets start with facism. The American Heritage Dictionary (of course, it must be wrong because it starts with "American," but we'll let that go for now) defines it as:
fas·cism (f²sh“¹z”…m) n. 1. Often Fascism.a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Lets take that apart piece by piece, shall we?

a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator
The United States of America's chief executive is elected in a republican (see note at the bottom) manner, his power balanced by the existance of two other political branches. He is subject to impeachment (as evidenced by President Clinton's impeachment trial) and removal (which has yet to happen to a president). His appointments to major posts are approved by Congress (the branch directly representative of the people). In summary, he is not a dictator, but a head of state whose power is severly limited. Thats not facist, so lets move on to the next part, shall we?


stringent socioeconomic controls
That contrasts of course with "free trade" and the capitalist American economy, which is, of course, as in any modern society subject to regulation. The government does not directly control the economy, unlike facist (and communist/socialist) nations.

As to the social part, the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States, look it up some time), and the legal system (tasked with making sure those rights are not violated), and the ability of any citizen to sue to have legislation declared unconstitutional, provides ample protection against overt government control. Special interest groups on both the left and right sides, so called "government watchdog" groups, provide oversight. They are, of course, unhappy with some of what occurs, but it is impossible to please everyone, and their interperation of legislation/the Constitution is not agreed with by all.

So, what we have so far is a country that does not have a dictator, and lacks "stringent socioeconomic controls." Doesn't sound facist to me... but I must be missing something.


, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship/quote]

While there has been occasional censorship in the United States, some unfortunate and some totally necessary, it pales in contrast with the UK, which has the legal right to quell stories for national security reasons, or Zimbabwe, which whimsically shoots people. If you want to complain about facism Shin, there are many fitting targets in far more dangerous situations than the United States. You however, enjoy joining (if not leading) the pack of wolves hounding the United States because its not a purly foreign-aid oriented organization.

If the United States was a facist nation, VP Gore could have used the military to keep George Bush from coming to power (or could have influanced the recount in any number of ways). The fact that the court system ruled against him is evidence that the Executive Branch does not have the dictatorial powers needed to constitute a 'facist' dictatorship. Sorry.

[quote]typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

While I'm sure you believe there is belligerent nationalism, I'm not going to argue that point. I won't change your opinion, and I have better things to do with my time. While racism was once rampant in the United States, major strides towards equality are now common. I believe even you will have to admit that racism is not the characteristic of a government with massive "affirmative action" and minority quota policies.

So, the United States fits none of the major characteristics of a facist nation, but is still, amazingly enough, facist. I'm amazed.
republic:

Repub. 1.a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. b. A nation that has such a political order. 2.a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

Not a pure democracy (as shown by the recent election, but a modified form of one which equalizes power between the states somewhat), but the people do have very important input (unlike facist nations, how amazing).

While I'm tempted not to waste my time responding to Shin's accusations regarding my personal beliefs, there are some things to clear up.


Observation:
1:
dmille (to Shin): I think the principle that angers you most is my strong belief that the U.S. government's primary responsibility is the interests and saftey of United States citizens, and only after that are they responsible to the remainder of the world. While it is the duty of each United States citizen to remember that he or she is a member of the "world community" and thus be compelled to act for the good of humanity, U.S. citizens must also remember which flag to salute.
2:
dmille (to EchoEffect): The US government cares a lot too. Its primary responsibility is the welfare of the American people however.

Analysis:
All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.
--Benito Mussolini[

From "[the American government's] primary responsibility is the welfare of the American people" he gets a facist statement. Shin's magic continues to impress me.


Observation:
1:
dmille (to Shin): You don't see my thinking process, and seldom wait for rationalization before you go on the offensive
2:
dmille (to Shin): I despised the Taliban long before most Americans knew it existed
3:
dmille (to StarHawk): No, probably not... you're merely a fool.

Analysis:
This is the epitaph I want on my tomb: "Here lies one of the most intelligent animals who ever appeared on the face of the earth."
--Benito Mussolini

While this doesn't really deserve a response, the point I was making with #2 was that I'm not a fad following American who became interested in national security after the attacks of September 11th.

I don't see how my stating that you open fire before I finish speaking in any way relates to the quote at the end, but once again, its Shinlogic (tm).

Everyone else was insulting him, and I disagreed with what he said, how he said it, and how it reflected on my country and its citizens. I have no problem with him personally, I just often diagree with him.



dmille (to EchoEffect): But of course, in the eyes of US-bashers, we in the US really use our economic aid to try to take over the world.
dmille (to StarHawk): I am somewhat of an imperialist, but more in the economic sense than the military-political one.


Apparently sarcasam isn't one of the things you picked up on in #1. For the second, in context (an important word there), I was stating that I support the expansion of the US economic sphere of influance as opposed to the political-military one (taking over countries and/or setting up puppet regimes. I feel that the second has a place, but the first is far less likely to result in dead civilians, so I favor it. Criticize it if you wish...


Here is the real log of the private message conversation, as opposed to Shin's recounting of events:

Session Start: Thu Mar 07 21:37:16 2002
Session Ident: Shin|work
Session Ident: Shin|work (~Mike@170.252.155.guidestone-41576)
<Shin|work> har
<Shin|work> it should be proto-fascist
<Shin|work> btw
<Shin|work> read the article i linked
<Shin|work> i dedicated it to eT
<Shin|work> but it is a good read otherwise
<Shin|work> or regardless
<dmille> I'm actually not a supporter of facism, sorry. Little things called the "Constitution of the United States of America" and seperation of powers..., and the fact that I think a republic is the best form of government
<Shin|work> ah, but you should read it
<Shin|work> jim garrison said
<Shin|work> "fascism shal come to america in the name of national security"
<Shin|work> the patriot bill validates his 35 year old prediction
<dmille> no, it doesn't. the governmental process is working as it should (reasonably).
<dmille> do you know which president suspended habeas corpus and used military tribunals (and martial law)?
<Shin|work> gotta go to a meeting
<dmille> uh huh....
<Shin|work> do you know which government conducted LSD and syphilis tests on it's own people?
<dmille> you still haven't answered my question, but yes. not alone though
<Shin|meeting> and no
<dmille> furthermore, do you know Congress is allowed to pass Unconstitutional legislation, technically?
<dmille> President Lincoln
<dmille> in a situation far more unstable
<dmille> legislation can only be declared unConstitutional when someone sues and takes the case to a Federal court, tehnnically. thus, currently, everything in the Patriot act is technically legal r Constitutional until challenged.
<dmille> have you read the Federalist Papers?
<FOOD> no
<dmille> you probably should. they, of course, provide excellent insight into the Constitution (that'd be the nonfacist document)
<FOOD> is this the constitution from the people or from the document?
<dmille|collegestuff> ?
<dmille|collegestuff> there's only one Constitution of the United States of America. Hamilton, Madison, and Jay wrote the Federalist Papers as "publius" (the people) in support of it.
<FOOD> yes, but apparently some edicts, while constitutional and in strict adherence to the constitution, apparently fly in the face of what the constitutions was intended for
<dmille|collegestuff> yes, though that is why the court system exists and has authority. it is their job to interpert the Constitution and apply it to issues, both literally and in spirit
<FOOD> there also seems to be a growing call nowadays for the american people to serve and support the government when it should be the reverse
<dmille|collegestuff> no, it doesn't have to be the reverse. american individuals have a responsibility to serve the United States (specifically its citizens) as a whole. one of the best ways to do that is government service. I'm not a minimalist in government areas. I would have been a Federalist, I suppose.
<FOOD> that's where the difference lies
<dmille|collegestuff> between...? serving the American people and the government? serving the government (as the representaton of the people) is often the most effective way of serving the people
<dmille|collegestuff> or one of the most effective
<dmille|collegestuff> I'm not saying the government shouldn't serve the people, thats its job, thats why it exists; just that in serving the government, individuals can serve "the people"
<dmille|collegestuff> #hw isn't the judge of ideas discussed here, sorry. keep pm in pm
<FOOD> hey, we're all about discussing the will of the people
<dmille|collegestuff> #hw is hardly "the people"
<dmille|colegestuff> *LINE EDITED*
Session Close: Fri Mar 08 00:03:17 2002


The line removed was a comment about someone... no need for it to be here.

One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils of this world are to be cured by legislation.
--Thomas Reed

While this is an excellent quote, it is extremly foolish for Shin to use it. I am a strong supporter of the use of force when I feel it can resolve the situation. In the United States however, legislation is, (next to peaceful protest, but we wouldn't allow that if we were facist) the only alternative to force. But according to Shin, we must use force, the alternative to legislation. I'll raise an army, go to D.C. appoint myself dictator (thus making the country facist) and tell the government to stop being facist. Anyone else see a problem? The use of force, or any non-legislative attempt to solve this non-existant problem will inherently make the situation worse.

http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/UNST001.GIF

I'll post this again, just for Shin.

[StarHawk]

Ben Tusi are you blind aswell as stupid?
Alright let me say this in big clear letters....and...very...slowely.... maybe that will help you some, and read very slowely now so you can't get confused or ignore what is being said. Alright ready?...And away we go!

The women were voluntarily using themselves as human shields because they thought they knew that the united nations would give exact orders they gave so these women got in the way on purpose bec ause they would not get shot at by united nations peacekeepers this allowed the guys behind them to get a clear shot at un and us forces they are just as guilty as the guys behind them, do you understand now?

And ECHO the UN is not "bossing" Iraq around they are making sure they don't build weapons of mass destruction considering they used bio weapons on their own people. and considering the threats of a nuke in the hands of Iraq would just be horrendious. So Yes it is quite fair that Iraq be "bossed around" by the UN.

The UN should not have right however to withhold military forces THAT BELONG TO THE COUNTRY REQUESTING THEIR RELEASE. Its just foolishness. and the UN should be disbanned because they seem to be giving too much power to a group of countries that is not very friendly to anyone. I mean the UN should not allow these terrorist supporting countries that it does allow. And then the US getting bossed around by terrorists that is not at all right.

IMHO its not right for any nation to be ordered around by any other nation as long as it is not a global or terrorist threat.

- I put that rant in bold because the bizarre formatting SH was using was causing thrice accursed horizontal scrolling - blu

[Ben Tusi]

Numbero Uno:

There is this thing called "Rules of Engaugement," and "The Geneva Convention." These things are there to limit the loss of life. So what if the women voulenteered? The message the US would be sending out shooting at human shields would definatly convince the enemy that America is the land of the free and the brave.

I'm sure an orginisation, such as the military, would have the resources and training to find a way around such a thing, seeing as it's their job, and all.

Numbero Dose:


the UN is not "bossing" Iraq around they are making sure they don't build weapons of mass destruction


the UN should be disbanned because they seem to be giving too much power to a group of countries that is not very friendly

Seeing the same person say those two things is just mindblowing. You want them to try and eliminate threats to the entire world, but not exist at all? One or the other, there is no both.

Numbero Tres:


I said "THE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS THAT CONSTANTLY INSULT US"

Yes, the job of the European Governments is to constantly insult the US of A, and not run a country. They like doing that because they are evil and European.

[bluevorlon]

I just wanted to add that although I wouldn't want to see Iraq have nuclear weapons, isn't it the height of hypocrisy for a nation with one of (if not the) biggest nuclear arsenals in the world to deem who should and who shouldn't have nuclear weapons?

[dmille]

Well, we invented them...
The Russians stole them.
We distributed them to some of our allies.
Then treaties were signed. Its not just the US not wanting the Iraqis to have nukes, its the British, French, Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Indians, and all of Iraq's neighbors.

[EchoEffect]

Actualy half the people who invented them were German....but thats irrelevent.

So if all other countries want another one to do something, then they should? So if all America's neighbors wanted the US to destroy its nuclear weapons.....would it? slightly hypocritical.

I don't think Iraq should have the weapons, I would like to see UN inspectors make sure they don't. I would like UN inspectors in all countries, making sure that all countries dont have weapons of mass destruction. Not going to happen though is it. Can you imagine the US letting in Arms inspectors?

[bluevorlon]

No dmille your right, it's not a US only issue, I agree with you there.
The policies of most nations who have weapons of mass destruction regarding those who don't is incredibly hypocritical,

blu|food> On July 4, 1934 Leo Szilard filed a patent application for the atomic bomb In his application, Szilard described not only the basic concept of using neutron induced chain reactions to create explosions, but also the key concept of the critical mass. The patent was awarded to him - making Leo Szilard the legally recognized inventor of the atomic bomb.
[16:03] <blu|food> and he was british
[16:04] <dmille|homework> yup, blu. and feynman holds the rights for the H-bomb
[16:04] <dmille|homework> Szilard was Hungarian
[16:04] <dmille|homework> became a molecular biologist afterwards
[16:04] <dmille|homework> he got around
[16:04] <blu|food> well, he applied to the british war office with the patent anywya
[16:04] <blu|food> anyway thats not the point
[16:05] <blu|food> so is it ok to for saddam to have A-Bombs, because the US didn't invent those?

[dmille]

Echoeffect, Germans working for the United States military. Feynman (patent holder on the H-bomb) was American.

Those were the terms of surrender Iraq accepted after Desert Storm. We've signed no such agreements. We don't use chemical weapons on our own civilians and those of our neighbors, and we don't fire bio/chem scuds at nearby nations as Iraq did. It accepted the terms of surrender, it should live with them. Or we'll come in and look around.

[StarHawk]

UH Ben Tusi again you prove how stupid you are.
You know I'll do the same thing I did last time maybe that will help you understand.


Starhawk, Stop posting things with huge long sentences without any spacing that screw up the page size! - blu


And about the Geneva convention that has nothing refering to eliminating volunteer human shields whatsoever. Those women were volunteers that basically automatically makes them combatants or aiding an enemy of the United States, thus they are fair game. If they were hostages that is what is covered not volunteers and hostages would not be shot at.

AND NO how would your most wiseness suggest you don't shoot the person acting as shield while the guy behind her is killing your friends and trying to kill you? I mean what should our soldiers have just used really harsh language and hope that finishes the bad guys?

And I said it rather plainly they UN is not bossing them around they are inspecting them and thats not just the UN its the entire coalition that took part in the Desert Storm operation. ANd notice that was not the UN it was the COALITION [it was a NATO op I beleive] basically it was a good way to make sure the UN did NOT stick their noses in a war they had no buisness in. The UN is not supposed to be in open warfare its a "peacekeeper" and not a very good one at that.

And the United Nations was never meant to go to war it was not MEANT to have a peacekeeper corps it was meant to bring peace via trade. They were not meant to be foreign aid workers or an army of peacekeeping soldiers.

I mean the very name PEACEKEEPER is an oxymoron considering wherever the UN butts in it seems there is a nasty war that follows. [Bosnia,Somalia,Hati,others] I mean have you ever heard of a UN op that has not gone to hell and then having the UN use the United States as their primary fighting force? IF so please tell me I think it would be rather funny.

If you ask me NATO/SATO should stay UN should go at least NATO does not do the BS the United Nations does.

And alot of people say the United States is heading torward the pulling out of the UN direction especially because we lost our seats on the Human Rights branch of the UN and on the other branch that Dmille listed. And because US soldiers tend not to like the UN commanders because of the Red tape issues.

[Ben Tusi]

Those women were volunteers that basically automatically makes them combatants or aiding an enemy of the United States, thus they are fair game. If they were hostages that is what is covered not volunteers and hostages would not be shot at.

If you manipulate politics enough, technically, that would be true.

[qoute]AND NO how would your most wiseness suggest you don't shoot the person acting as shield while the guy behind her is killing your friends and trying to kill you? I mean what should our soldiers have just used really harsh language and hope that finishes the bad guys?[/quote]

The military should be able to figure out and coordinate tactics to figure a way around that. After all, the Armmed Forces of the United States of America is the most powerful National Defence force in the entire Universe.


not MEANT to have a peacekeeper corps

It doesn't. Soldiers are moulded into a coilition from participating countries. The soldiers still hold their oaths from their initiation into the military, they just wear blue hats and get a blue badge on their coats, and follow orders from a bunch of politicians*.


And because US soldiers tend not to like the UN commanders because of the Red tape issues.

It's called proceedure, and if you mix with the fact that your trying to painstakingly balance the use of lethal force with the fact that colateral casualties have to stay to the maximum of 0, you get one hell of a high-wire act, with no net on the bottom.

If you want to reform this, type out a formal motion, take this to a senitor, and watch him shred it and laugh at you.

Politics is like Medicine, it is only sped up in an emergency, and even than, it may not be fast enough. Many factors have to be accounted for, and issues will wait until they are brought up in a formal fashion. It's a fact of humanity.


*I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

[EchoEffect]

Germans working for the United States military. Feynman (patent holder on the H-bomb) was American.

Yeah, they were still German though. If I move to France, I dont become French.



We don't use chemical weapons on our own civilians and those of our neighbors, and we don't fire bio/chem scuds at nearby nations as Iraq did

No, you dont, you fire weapons at countries far away nations ;).

I did say i support the UN inspecting Iraq. I was pointing out that it is an example of the UN imposing its will ona country, and that it is not simply an orginization set up to piss off the USA.


I mean the very name PEACEKEEPER is an oxymoron considering wherever the UN butts in it seems there is a nasty war that follows.

Er....the war in Bosnia wasnt caused by the UN peacekeepers.

[StarHawk]

Uh Ben Tusi there is no possible tactic to get around those women being volunteers they were combatants that is why the US soldiers that fired into them and the guys behind them were not shunned by the US or by most other nations.

And Echo true Bosnia was not caused by the UN but the UN certainly got waist deep in the shit that followed. The UN its self may not cause the wars but they tend to get deeply involved and they tend to use up US and British forces more then anyone else its as if they consider us expendable. Mainly US but Britain plays the second greatest role in UN operations from what I recall.

May have my countries confused about Britain not sure about that part but I think its right. With so much Britain talk flaoting around this friggin discussion my head is popping full of Britain this and Britain that.

[EchoEffect]

Its all part of our plan to take over the world.

this is the first stage.

[Mac_Bug]

If it wasn't for the Romans, you wouldn't have British civilization either. You should have surrendered to the Italians in WWII, because you owe them, don't you? Also, we should then have let you take care of yourselves and not helped save you guys from the Germans.

Foolishness :/

But it's not foolishness when we are required to worship US of A for its role in WW2 before we criticize them

[Shin]

<FOOD> there also seems to be a growing call nowadays for the american people to serve and support the government when it should be the reverse
<dmille|collegestuff> no, it doesn't have to be the reverse. american individuals have a responsibility to serve the United States (specifically its citizens) as a whole. one of the best ways to do that is government service. I'm not a minimalist in government areas. I would have been a Federalist, I suppose.

<dmille|collegestuff> between...? serving the American people and the government? serving the government (as the representaton of the people) is often the most effective way of serving the people

<dmille|collegestuff> I'm not saying the government shouldn't serve the people, thats its job, thats why it exists; just that in serving the government, individuals can serve "the people"

Now if you could only provide what you said at that time in #hw about serving the government being what makes us civilised.

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. (Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936)

You only fool yourself. You are also using the American flag as a security blanket.

[dmille]

Now if you could only provide what you said at that time in #hw about serving the government being what makes us civilised.


It would be wonderful if you would stop misportraying what I say. But thats your only offense, so its not going to happen.

Stop quoting at me and make up some arguements.

[StarHawk]

Originally posted by Mac_Bug


But it's not foolishness when we are required to worship US of A for its role in WW2 before we criticize them
We dont want worship we would like to be appreciated at least I mean the USA saved Europes ass in WWII so it would be nice to be recognized without it being you people making rude comments about us. [and by you people I dont mean all Europeans or all British so dont even go there you know damn well I mean YOU and only YOU.]

[Shin]

I'm not the one who still hasn't responded to the earlier fascist comments.

I'm also not the one who is focusing on the first part of my 5-part post of dmille-quotes on fascism where - incidentally - most of the quotes are taken from this thread.

You aren't fooling anyone by posting incomplete replies that don't address the real issues.

[dmille]

How much time am I supposed to waste responding to repetative foolishness exactly?

and most of it has been responded to. Look at other posts. I'm doing some reading looking for quotes, expect a counteroffensive by Tuesday.

[Shin]

"How much time am I supposed to waste responding to repetative foolishness exactly?"

This is the epitaph I want on my tomb: "Here lies one of the most intelligent animals who ever appeared on the face of the earth."
--Benito Mussolini

il duce!

[dmille]

As honored as I'd be, quoting from a facist's book at me doesn't make me a facist.

I just refuse to waste time right now playing with Shin, mr "I'm always right, and if you oppose me you're stupid."

I think it would be easier to make a case for Shin being a facist than it would be to prove that I'm a facist.

Facists generally aren't willing to die for the REPUBLIC they live in, and they certainly wouldn't support a republican form of government as strongly as I do.

[Dukath]

Lets get rid of this USA gives the most foreign aid in the world thingy.

Even in absolmute number its not even the USA, let alone in per capita income. It is ... tada ... Japan. In 1999 Japan had almost twice the total amount of foreign aid than USA had, and if we talk about % of GDP USA is at a lowly 0.1 while most other countries are way above that. (Some european countries go to 1%)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A46707-2001Jan25
Is a nice link on how most foreign aid is spent. Now this is not only a problem in USA but unfortunately its a bigger problem there.

Here is a nice quote of that article:
"Also keeping the money in American hands are laws that oblige both USAID and Chemonics to use American companies and American subcontractors wherever possible, even if the cost is significantly higher than using foreign ones. Chemonics personnel in Poland, as in other parts of the world, are required to fly on American airlines, drive American automobiles and type their reports on American computers."


Thats it for now, i'll be looking for more facts if there are more insistent wrong statements. :)-

[frstkor13]

It pains me that as a moderator I am forced to actually read some of this filth. Filth including dmille and shin, both of whom are never wrong, having a difference of opinions. Then there is the constant downing of the US which I have just gotten better at ignoring.

As long as the US is the brightest beacon of freedom in the world, there will be two kinds of people that feel the need to attack it. People like osama, and the people who are pissed that they are not living in the country which is the brightest beacon of freedom.

dmille, my advice to you would be to just ignore shin. i've watched him egg you on for a while now and it will go on forever.

[Dukath]

PS: i'm happy enough to live in europe with our dim but very comfortable ligth. Unfortunatly there is this large beacon across the ocean with its foul but very bright light that keeps interfereing with our own light.

Just to say that bright doesnt mean much if the quality isn't what it should be. :)

[frstkor13]

that, as the majority of this thread, is your opinion.

[zenogias]

As long as the US is the brightest beacon of freedom in the world, there will be two kinds of people that feel the need to attack it. People like osama, and the people who are pissed that they are not living in the country which is the brightest beacon of freedom.
And then there are people like me living in the brightest beacon of freedom in the world and realising it's not, and never was, all that bright.

[matt_tone9]

Originally posted by frstkor13
the US is the brightest beacon of freedom in the world

how can you say that with Mumia Abu Jamal and many others like him locked up?
http://www.freemumia.org/

[Maverick_3058]

Please, don't throw Mumia into this.

[Shin]

"As long as the US is the brightest beacon of freedom in the world, there will be two kinds of people that feel the need to attack it. People like osama, and the people who are pissed that they are not living in the country which is the brightest beacon of freedom."

This is so comedic it's actually sad.

Shall we have another kneejerk reaction now that reinforces the perception of denseness?

The fact that people from the UK, Belgium, Australia, and other places besides - yes even the US - would have laughter as an initial reaction to that is not because of some global conspiracy. It's not because of some pathological malady based on envy. It's just common sense.

[frstkor13]

What the hell does laughter have to do with anything? The truth is reason to laugh much of the time.

You're close minded and blind, and I think thats funny even though it's sad too.

You probably think many things about me, including blind, I think thats funny too.

And as always, this thread is almost entirely opinion.

[Shin]

"Shall we have another kneejerk reaction now that reinforces the perception of denseness?"

Check.

"Then there is the constant downing of the US which I have just gotten better at ignoring."

I guess at this point we are about to witness an example of this which is, in essential terms, a more developed skill of ignorance.

You are better than this.

[frstkor13]

Yes shin, I wouldn't want to go up against the lovable panda which is you who says no wrong and is always right in every instance in which his mouth opens or his hands type.

I posted here to state my opinion, knowing that the regular US bashing dolts like you would smell some blood when it was urine. As if I care what you think of my opinions.

It is you who is ignorant, each time you try to argue the same crap every time a thread like this creeps up. You who is ignorant thinking that your thought should be universal. You who is ignorant egging dmille on all the time and trying to carry a do no wrong persona.

You and this arguement are old. My opinion stands, call me ignorant for having one all you want, I'll try and give a shit.

p.s. If I'm better than 'this' then I'm better than you.

[Shin]

"I guess at this point we are about to witness an example of this which is, in essential terms, a more developed skill of ignorance."

"As if I care what you think of my opinions."
"I'll try and give a shit."

How predictable can you be?

[frstkor13]

"How predictable can you be?"

No more predictable than you.

[ionfish]

Enough.

- ion -