A question of Competative Balance

[nareik123]

It was a Monday evening, and I'm round my local gaming club, about to play the first 40K game with my Tau for several months. I'm all hyped up and everything, my list was built with mech Tau in mind and I have experience. Competitive wise, my list could not have been more optimal.

Then, I find out I'm playing against those damned Puppies. Worse, it wasn't a true competitive list other wise Jaws of the "I'm a super cheap psychic power that causes all necron and Tau armies to cry" would have been taken. It was full of marines in razorbacks with lone wolves and other scary stuff. Both of our lists were mechanized and both were good.

However, I have a big issue. I glanced at my list, and looked at his, and I was pretty much insulted by the lack of balance in this game. My Fire Warrior squads are so much weaker than the basic Grey Hunter. The points gap is, what? 5-6 points between a Grey hunter and a Fire warrior. The Grey Hunter is better in every single statistic bar attacks, has ridiculous basic equipment while fire warriors still have to buy completely useless grenades and are stuck with the useless carbine as the only other weapon choice.
I'm trying to avoid a rant thread about this. I can not think of another faction in this game that is so restricted in their army book. Tyranids and orks, for example, can build shooty lists. Eldar have the best of every aspect of this game in their lists. I don't even want to go into Chaos and Space Marines. Even Necrons have some viable close combat options, like the lords and the basic warrior.

The Tau, however, are stuck with absolutely no decent combat troops at all. Kroot are so laughably bad in close combat that if I bought any, I'd just leave them in rapid fire range. The entire book has no "ignore Armour Saves in close combat" weapons, Farsight being the only exception to the rule but his special rules are like a punch to the face.

So, I ask this question. Is this game balanced? Are the 5th Edition Codecies so blatantly overpowered with the 4th edition books in perspective (Eldar are probably the best of the older codecies in competative play). Can I walk into an organized tournament with my Tau list and expect to get anywhere? Or is the Tau book so broken that winning against someone with the same skill and a 5th edition book no longer possible. Being unable to do anything but die in the close combat phase is a totally unfair when every other army has at least one option to fight back in combat.

[LordAba]

Tau need to take advantage of the tools they get. Nope: they cannot jump in front of marines and survive. But they have the best basic gun in the game.
Kroot bad? I personally think they are great: cheap infiltrators with boltguns. Add in hounds and throw them in cover and they will rarely let you down unless faced with a million flamers.
You also have the best anti-tank gun in the game.

Yup, if every race was balanced we'd all be playing marines, and that would be boring. Every race has a weakness... the game isn't about covering them up, but emphasizing your strengths.

[MooFreaky]

Tau lost a lot with 5th edition IMO. The inability of their suits to actually jump behind cover and be able to stay out of LoS was so vital to them, that many of their suits are now point sinks. It is hard for them to earn their place in a list when they are reliant on survivability gained through a tactic that is no longer possible.

Problem is that they need those suits to cover some important roles in the team (such as anti heavy infantry and anti light vehicles). So you need them, but they can't really achieve what you need them for.

They have some good units, true. Firewarriors and Kroot are fantastic basic troops; however, the Tau don't come together as an army currently.

[nareik123]

LordAba:

It's hard to justify the firearms if the users are overpointed and cover is super abundant in this game. 5th Edition has really punished ranged firepower, and Tau are suffering from that. Cover saves are everywhere in this game and Tau have no reliable form of close combat. Also, since pretty much every vehicle can easily gain a cheap 50% increase in survivability by shoving a bunch of dudes in front of the railguns, punishing single shot anti tank weapons. You need more Railguns to make the shots count now, or gear up some suits to deep strike and fusion blaster.

[MechaEmperor700]

Tau themselves have always been the gimmick shooty army. You just really have to abuse the range on your weapons. The Necrons (being one of the oldest armies in terms of updates) still stand a pretty good chance against most of the others, especially that annoying C'Tan can wipe the floor with just about everything.

For Tau, you really have to abuse the enhanced Strength and Range on your basic weapons, I always take a bunch of tau and line them up against enemies, especially marines. If they want to close the distance, they will have to step into my Rapid fire range, in which case all three squads of Tau unlease holy hell on them (I've completely decimated a squad of 10 tactical marines and their rhino with this method in one turn of shooting from 3 squads of Tau). I know 36 Tau (which translates to a massive 72 shots at rapid fire range) isnt worth 10 marine and their rhino in game points, but you have to concentrate fire on enemies. Supported by two Hammerheads, I managed to destroy most of his army from range and, when he finally had a squad survive long enough to charge me, there was only one Marine left. Kroot should not be used as shock troops, they cannot survive like that. They should be used as outflankers or "problem solvers', charging in after your squad of fire warriros get charged. Battlesuits can still take advantage of their jetpacks by shooting and moving. They have relentless and can move a total of 12 inches each turn, meaning that most armies will not be able to keep up.

[nareik123]

With the utmost respect there Mecha, I am well aware how you play a dedicated ranged army like Tau. The problem I face is when various armies liked marines outnumber you because of superior codecies and lists. 6 Fire Warrior squads in 1.5k with fishes will never happen, factoring the need of suits, anti tank units, pathfinders and other units. Another problem with Tau lists is that a large portion of units in the list (Kroot, Vespids, Sniper Teams, Gun Drone Squadrons, Skyrays and Stealth Suits) are usually very weak in a general list, or completely useless, or in a spot on the FOC where you can't actually take them. Since pretty much the Anti Tank is relegated to the Heavy Support of the Tau book (Being one of the few armies who can't field cost effective anti tank potential on basic Troop Squads) and wanting to take advantage of the pure awesome that is the Tau Railgun, you want to load up on Broadsides and Hammerheads.

Another problem is super inefficient wargear. Why would I ever take an Escape System? A failsafe detonator maybe great lols but your crisis suits are super important and shouldn't be in combat, no thanks. Iridium armour takes away the mobility which is the vital part of suits. The Special issue wargear is pathetic, aside from the only redeeming item, the Stim Injector.

Finally, there is no way you can defeat armies that can close the gap super quickly. Marine drop pod lists? Ork Nob Biker lists? Tyranids in the Dawn of War set up? Orks in the Dawn of War Set up? Daemons in general? These can all get close and the standard set up of 3 Fire Warrior squads in fishies at 1.5Kpts can't kill all the squads in time to stop them engaging in close combat.

[MechaEmperor700]

yeah some of the wargear in the Tau Codex is just pure facepalm material. Namely I never saw the use of an Ethereal. Sure it boosts the cc abilities of the tau, but you should never get that close to the enemy in the first place. Although I think this is just one Codex where the Developers *probably* had a few drinks before sitting down in front of the computer. Some Older dexes are still quite powerful.

Come to think of it, Necrons and Eldar are still quite powerful with their own rules, the two Inquisitor armies are meant to be used with Space Marines/Imperial guard. The only two remaining old Dexes are the Dark Eldar and Tau. It's probably just the Tau that got nerfed due to the new ways the rules work.

[Ten Tigers]

yeah some of the wargear in the Tau Codex is just pure facepalm material. Namely I never saw the use of an Ethereal. Sure it boosts the cc abilities of the tau, but you should never get that close to the enemy in the first place. Although I think this is just one Codex where the Developers *probably* had a few drinks before sitting down in front of the computer. Some Older dexes are still quite powerful.

Come to think of it, Necrons and Eldar are still quite powerful with their own rules, the two Inquisitor armies are meant to be used with Space Marines/Imperial guard. The only two remaining old Dexes are the Dark Eldar and Tau. It's probably just the Tau that got nerfed due to the new ways the rules work.

This makes me think no, they aren't balanced. But at the same time they never were. The Necrons and Eldar are still beefy because their codecies are beefy. The Tau USED to be beefy because their codex took advantage of the core rules. Now that the rules have changed, they suffer. So nariek, the true question is: as a Tau player, what do you intend to do about it?

[Kirby]

Tau are fine in 5th edition if you run them right. See a series of articles here (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/p/armies-in-5th-edition-articles.html).

In regards to balance, the newer books are very well balanced to each other and within themselves. Against older books they are going to have an advantage but older books such as Tau, Eldar, DE and Witchunters put out very good competitive lists, there is just little variety in them. With the newer books you can get 5-6 completely different competitive armies out of them at first glance and BA/IG/SW more than likely have more than this. This is the main problem with the older books, they are mono-builds if you going for a competitive and balanced army and GW has done a pretty admirable job in their latest 5 releases in giving the consumer flexibilty. Hopefully this continues.

[Kryndo]

I have to agree wth Kirby here, I play Tau in 5th.

My list has yet to lose a game in 5th (and I play every week!) and everyone except 1 guy at the local store tournaments is some form of marines (chaos, vanilla, wolves, BA, hell even a black templar guy) and I don't have trouble with any version of marine lists.

Sure playing Tau in 5th is different but they are far from being unable to be competative in tournaments. A few units are subpar when compared to other units in their same category but that's to be expected in each codex.

(Although there is a handful of wargear that is useless or just for lols but who really cares everything else is great, obscured vehicles anyone?)

[MechaEmperor700]

Lol, starting with the Eldar, they basically threw the old FOC chart out the window, since there is always some sort of Mono army you can take. When I got back into the game I was completely flabergasted by the amount of random things you can take for Troops, topped off by the DC dreadnought army.

[LordAba]

Also, since pretty much every vehicle can easily gain a cheap 50% increase in survivability by shoving a bunch of dudes in front of the railguns, punishing single shot anti tank weapons.
For the hammerhead, how does this work exactly? The gun is high up on a skimmer base...
Plus Tau can benefit from cover. Infiltrating kroot can easily sit in cover by an objective and gain a 2+ save by going to ground. Plus marklights. Why doesn't anyone think of the markerlights!

[BrianGeneral]

Don't start with me upon the issue of Balance. I don't have much time for 40K nowadays, but I'm still observing this mess.

First, about Aba's regards. Kroots, while are good assets of a Tau army, are still just speed bumps instead of a roadblock. Without Armour Save (or a pathetic one after an upgrade) and just decent CC ability, almost anyone who have good CC ability can wipe them off in one round, two at best. In the past they can be a potent force due to their Always strike First-sorta when being charged in Cover, but now alomst everyone have Offensive Grenades to offset that, in other words, they can even dive into a huge mob of Kroot directly. Oh, and their improved Cover only works in jungle terrains, unlike Eldar Pathfinders.
Markerlights. Sure they're useful, and probably one of the most crucial piece of wargear in their asrenal. But then, they're way too expensive for them now. The new Jet Pack rule does help them to deal with its Heavy characteristc, however it doesn't change the fact that they're expensive. 3 FWs for a Marker Drone? Jeez. Handheld ones do suffer from problem too: while FWs and Parthfinders can care less, Stealthsuits need at least 5-10pts more to keep them mobile AND able to use that thing effecively.

Currently at work, will finish when I go home. There's a long list for that......

[Aquila]

as a Tau player, what do you intend to do about it?
Play my mechanized IG army until the codex gets updated :D

In all seriousness, though, Tau are a lot of fun to play and I still love them, but there is not much they can do against some of the popular heavy-infantry heavy builds out there right now. Tau have always had a particular weakness against armies with lots of heavy infantry and few vehicles, and they just don't have the firepower to stop your standard Blood Angels army with 4-5 Assault Squads with Sanguinary priests providing Feel No Pain to everyone.

[nareik123]

Aquila's bang on about this. When your army is very inefficient to defeat an army that contributes 80% of GW total sales, then you are having balance problems. When Space Marine armies are outnumbering you and still win, you are having balance problems. Tau have no way to efficiently kill multiple MEQ squads through ranged firepower, there is not enough plasma in the Tau list to kill 5 squads of Marines in drop pods. And i don't even want to get into the headache that is killing assault terminators.

[MechaEmperor700]

I actually just took a look at the Witchhunter Codex. For a modest 1 point increase, the Sisters of battle have much more survivability than the baseline Fire Warrior, Close combat ability almost on par with Space Marines, and access to Faith Points. Their only detriment against Tau would be that their bolters is weaker in strength and range against the Pulse Rifle, but other than that they're a pretty solid Troop Choice. I think it may just be the Tau that got the short end of the stick this time.

[Commissar_Jalil]

" Even Necrons have some viable close combat options, like the lords and the basic warrior."

I lol'd and stopped reading.

Tau are more or less a mono build army. Commander with MP/Plas, 3x3 MP/Plas Crisis suits, min FW, 2 kroot mobs in every list, with either 2x2 piranha and 1x Pathfinder, or 2x Pathfinder and 1x2 Piranha in FA, and either 2 HH's and a broadside unit or 1 HH and 2 broadside units in HS.

[MechaEmperor700]

The Warrior is far from being Close Combat material, but a Lord with a warscythe is a demon to anything with less than I5. They do have Flayed ones and Pariahs tho, not to mention the freakish C'Tans.

[Brother Wolf]

5th Edition has really punished ranged firepowerThat has to be the funniest thing I've read in ages. In a game where some of the most powerful weaponry in the game ranges 48" or more, the incorporation of TLOS has to be the BEST thing that has ever happened to ranged firepower in the game. Combined with a vastly more survivable set of rules for vehicles, 5th edition has been a blessing for ranged firepower, not a punishment.

As for Tau, I'm sure BG and some of the other Tau faithful recall my many "Don't whine about the Tau" rant-responses. Tau got 2 codices in less than 4 years, (2001, 2005). And they were a brand new army, never before seen. They got to close out 3rd with a powerful army built to bend the rules and then they got to barrel into 4th ed with a new dex barely a year into the new edition. Orks? They launched 3rd in much the same way as Tau did 4th, yet they waited practically a decade for a new book. Dark Eldar? Still waiting, (albeit, the light would seem to be at the end of the tunnel). Sorry that the new SM, new IG and new edition have been unkind to the young, upstart Tau, but when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, (or better yet, limoncello!)

Yes, the Tau took a bit of a hit transitioning into 5th. Fish of Fury doesn't work the way it used to, Jet Packs don't benefit from terrain the way they used to. Both totally valid points. But let's consider again that there are still plenty of ways to take advantage of the Tau strengths. 30" range on a basic, S5 weapon? Pack them in a fish, scoot off to a corner and fire, fire, fire!!! Markerlights, find a way to pack those in and use them to negate cover to increase to hit where applicable. And while it's easy to fixate on the AP1 joy of a Railhead, don't neglect that pie plate. If the MEQ you are facing is simply going to take cover saves anyway, why not drop a S6 pie plate, (with BS4 scatter, btw). You should easily wound 4 out of every 5 hit, meaning you can probably kill 1-3 out of every 5. Those are better odds than the single shot at AP1.

Are FW worth 10pts? That depends on how you look at them. T3, WS2, Sv4+ seems pretty scrubby, esp compared to BS2, T4, Sv4+ for an 'Ard Boy or the 6pts for a Sv6+ boy. Ditto vs IG for the cost. Of course, factor in again the fact that IG/Orks don't have a S6 30" basic weapon nor a skimmer transport. Those things do count for something.

Until such time as Tau get a replacement, (and based on the rumour mill, we'll see DE, Necron and some inquisition before 2012, no sign of Tau), just try to look at your units again. What can they do, what could you as a player do different? 40k has never been and never will be a balanced game. I highly doubt it is intended to be. If that were true, there would be a simple formula to apply to stats, weapons and transports to get a basic point value. I have yet to see how that works after years of comparing codices and units.

[nareik123]

Brother Wolf, I must agree that TLOS is indeed a massive blessing on Tau shooting. However, there are other problems now. 5th Edition has turned 40K into a much more mobile game. Armies are becoming harder to completely wipe out with the new codecies allowing more units for those armies. Now you only have a minimum of 5 turns to grab objectives and hold them from enemies. I can somewhat deal with Kill Points (ignoring the fact that Gun drones which disembark from Devilfishies contribute stupidly easy KP tallies) but objective holding is a murder. We all know the Tau army can only displace enemies via ranged firepower. Problem is, is that the mobility (or forced mobility) means we are forced to throw our long ranged fire warriors into objectives that are usually closer to the enemy force we do not wish to get close to. Scooting off to grab objectives is great, or to sit in the corner and blaze away, but I have problems when Tau lack close range shock troops to displace enemies off objectives.

Cover saves are easily my biggest problem. The fact that if I shoot at my enemy, he's going to have 50% extra survivability because of pretty much anything in the way, really agitates me. Tau have a lot of AP2 weapons, true. But they do not have the very decent rate of fire. Giving Crisis suits flamers would drop them in places they really don't want to be, in rapid fire range of the enemy, and since everything and it's mother has a 3+ armour save or too many guys for the suits flamers to handle, it's a lot of points for one turn of flamer action. Every other race has some form of method of displacing enemies from cover. This is usually close combat troops, which can shift anything from cover. Since Kroot do not come with offensive grenades, or can not buy them, they can not perform this role as half of them will be dead trying to shift a squad out of cover, unless said squad is another Tau Fire Warrior squad.
In this era of 40K, I find being able to displace enemy units from cover is the most important thing when fielding a shooting army. Markerlights are the only cost effective way to do this, and even then a squad of 6 pathfinders hits around the 170-180 point mark with a Dfish.

@Commissar Jalil: Some of us don't have the ability to field power weapons in our armies, namely every Tau player in the entire 40K game. A T4 3+ save with we'll be back is a good combat troop compared to, say, Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot.

[Commissar_Jalil]

"A T4 3+ save with we'll be back is a good combat troop compared to, say, Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot."

And a kick in the teeth is better than watching your house burn down. Neither is good, any way you slice it.

"and even then a squad of 6 pathfinders hits around the 170-180 point mark with a Dfish."

So if you subtract the cost of a war fish from the pf, (you are usign a warfish, right? with sms for more cover ignoring shenanigans) and add it to the fw, what then? Then you get on average 3 ml hits per target, which happens to be enough to remove a 4+ save. TaaDAA.

You can't honestly compare tau to necrons, and come away with, "Tau suck".

[nareik123]

I have no idea where your getting your optimal fish configs and list recommendations since I don't think I've ever seen a single forum user ever recommend bumping up the points cost of a BS3 transport with giving it better guns, and 2 squads of Kroot is a great way to spend points on 20 guys who objective hump the whole game. Also, SMS don't ignore cover saves. It's nothing more than an improved Burst Cannon.

Look, If I want gunships, I'm sticking with Hammerheads. I take 2 upgrades on the fish, Dpods and Dlaunchers and I stop at there. I prefer to keep them cheap since my 1.5K list runs with 3.

[Commissar_Jalil]

What is a warfish?
http://tinyurl.com/2c4wehr
"Warfish math" Link #4

SMS ignores cover:
To summarize:
1- "Carried" Cover (ork bikes, DP, turboboosting, etc) : Always get save.
2 - Intervening Units : No, they count as being BEHIND terrain. Unless 50%+ are in B2B contact.
3 - Area terrain :
A - Inside: Yes.
B - Touching area terrain : Yes, if 50%+ are.
C - Behind area terrain : No.

Further still, sms can shoot around corners to knock out a hiding speeder/trukk/etc.

Now, to try and wrench this back on topic:
"Is this game balanced? Are the 5th Edition Codecies so blatantly overpowered with the 4th edition books in perspective (Eldar are probably the best of the older codecies in competative play). Can I walk into an organized tournament with my Tau list and expect to get anywhere?"

Yes. You just need to fully understand the mechanics of 5th edition and your codex; how your army can use it's inherent strengths to complete the missions ahead of it.

[Aquila]

TLOS rules aren't what hurt Tau. They never had any armor penetrating weapons to begin with, except for a few mounted on Crisis Suits which are manouverable enough to negate directional cover.

What actually killed the ultra-mobile Tau lists were:
-Removal of the 'Skimmers Moving Fast' rule that transformed penetrating hits into glancing hits, Disruption Pods bonus is a small positive tradeoff
-Defensive Weapons changing from Str. 5 to Str. 4, cutting firepower in half for Tau tanks moving fast
-Ind. Character rule that any character within 2" of a friendly infantry unit is considered part of that unit
-Space Wolves and Blood Angels
-Skimmers lost their melee combat defensive bonuses, and all vehicles are insanely vulnerable to melee combat

And most importantly:
-THE RUN RULE.

Heavy jump infantry scared the crap out of Tau before, but now they can move up to 50% faster, while all infantry and walkers can move as much as twice as fast to engage the Tau. Keeping enemies at arms length to whittle down melee units just isn't a viable option anymore. No matter how you cut it, melee based armies got a huge boost in the move to 5th edition.

Against balanced or shooty armies like Imperial Guard, Tau still perform admirably. Against heavy infantry-heavy armies or fast lists like Blood Angels or Tyranids, however, the Tau just don't have the firepower to hurt them enough before they get swamped with melee.

[BrianGeneral]

Jalil, you obviously have no idea about what rule SMS use. They ignore LOS only (other than Night Fights and others), check the Codex: Enemies can still claim any cover they enjoy; now a shot that pass through anything but a plain table surface will grant cover save to those being shot. Do the math.

I really want to reply to Armand's post but don't have much time, probably later.

[Commissar_Jalil]

"Jalil, you obviously have no idea about what rule SMS use."

On the contrary, I'm quite sure of my position in this matter, and insulting my intelligence isn't a great way to prove your point.

I dare you to use the rules to prove the points above wrong.

[Aquila]

Let's not worry about the SMS debate here, it's really not relevant to the discussion at hand. Good thread for the rules forum though, for sure. And he wasn't insulting your intelligence, merely your knowledge of that particular rule. No reason for this to get ugly.

[Brother Wolf]

I'm not trying to say that any Tau can walk into any tourney and walk away with it. I very much recognize many of the original Tau strengths don't pack the same punch currently. The same could be said for any army with an aging codex. Could IG have won a tourney in either their 3rd or 4th ed codex format between 2000-2007? A resounding 'hell no' comes to mind. 1999 Orks in 4th? Highly doubtful. Pure GK? I don't recall ever seeing such a list top the charts as a GT.

I'm sure we could break down codex by year and edition to cover all the negative elements. The main point should be do you like your army and why? Was it just a fun army to build and paint, (honestly, FW are a pain in the freakin' ass to assemble, second only to Necron Immortals)? Have you enjoyed playing the army to date? Are you only playing to win? These are important things to ask. Unlike the Magic $50k World Championship, however, if you are playing 40K for anything more than an enjoyable couple of hours, there's nothing gained from winning other than bragging rights. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to win, or even want to win. We all want to win our games. However, if winning is the only thing that matters, then one must switch armies repeatedly every time the game shifts.

40K is not balanced. It will always favor the newest books, esp those written to the current edition of the rules. Until you have the new hotness, you must be at peace with your old & busted. It's just a game, after all.

[Commissar_Jalil]

"40K is not balanced. It will always favor the newest books, esp those written to the current edition of the rules."

QFT
/thread

[Elarik]

@ Commisioner

No, not always Nids got a bit of a nerf with their 5'th Edition codex, but it was not 100% noticable.

ANY BOOKS WRITTEN BY MATT WARD ARE BALLS TO THE WALLS OVERPOWERED.
Matt Ward writes codex's based off of his daydreaming about the race. Blood Angels is written by him, so is the Nilla Space Marines Codex. Fantasy Daemons was written by him and when being asked "Why are daemons so overpowered?" His literal response was "It would be a shame if they were not."

The only book he didnt overpower, was Fantasy Orks... he made them the "comical relief army" of fantasy.

[Perriwinkléé]

To be fair I think you have a point Nareik, all the other lists can be moulded into both shooty or choppy roles but Tau can't really pull the choppy part off, at all. Not too long ago I was facing an all kroot 1000 point list and to be honest it wasn't that effective really.

[Kirby]

40K is not balanced. It will always favor the newest books, esp those written to the current edition of the rules.

It certainly favors new books but GW doesn't produce books like they used to. Previoulsy, GW made new books as basic "additions" to the previously released codex. I.e. Codex A comes out with unit set A. Codex B comes out with unit set B which is made up of A + the extra unit(s)/bits, etc. Codex C comes out which is made up of B + extras, etc. GW's latest 5 40k books have been completely different to each other (yes even the 3 SM books, they all have completely different make-ups even though people try to smack them into each other). This means the new books should have the benefit for being designed with the current ruleset but aren't superior to the books released before them (take a look at IG/SW, 2nd/3rd codex released in 5th and you'll find the majority of the internet forums believe them to be the most "OP/Cheesey/powerful" books out there).

THe issues the older books have is either poor codex design or mono-builds for competitive play. Eldar = some form of mechdar (seer councils used to be viable too but less so with the increase in psy defense). DE = mech/DL spam. Witchunters = Immo spam. Tau = Hybrid shooty death. etc.

Back to the whole Tau thing... the list posted above by myself is a very competitive list and can walk into a tournament with no comp and if run by a good general expect to walk away with it. THey are an excellent list which puts out a horrendous amount of firepower and delays the opponent so they can cotinue shooting. I've written an article which explains all of this in-depth here (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-to-hybrid-tau-applied.html) which I hope helps display why Tau properly built and played are a very effective force in 5th edition.

[Brother Wolf]

Previoulsy, GW made new books as basic "additions" to the previously released codex. I.e. Codex A comes out with unit set A. Codex B comes out with unit set B which is made up of A + the extra unit(s)/bits, etc. Codex C comes out which is made up of B + extras, etc.I was going to ask exactly how far back are you going with that? Certainly not 2nd ed as I don't recall it, (my 2nd ed. SW codex is bigger than most modern books). Then I sat & really thought about 40K from 1999-2004. It really has been 5-6 years since they 'published' a mini/add-on dex.

In 3rd we had the base codices for SM, CSM, Orks, IG and Eldar.
-SM got BA, DA, SW, Armageddon (BT, Sallies), Eye of Terror (SW 13th)
-CSM got Eye of Terror (LatD)
-IG got Catachans, Armageddon (Steel Legion), Eye of Terror (Cadian)
-Orks got Armageddon (Speed Freeks)
-Eldar got Craftworld Eldar, Eye of Terror (Ulthwe)

I'll point out that CSM got 3 books during 3rd. Dark Eldar got 2 and Dark Angels got 2, (albeit the latter two were minor updates, dubbed 2nd edition, unlike CSM). I'll also point out that Armageddon & Eye of Terror were mere pamphlets in length and contained 4 lists each. Woeful treatment for any army list. DE never got any bonus codex love, nor Tyrannids, Orks only ever got Speed Freeks, Tau & Necrons were new books entirely, (and Tau got a fresh rewrite to launch 4th).

Personally, I find the 100% standalone codex for ANY force to be a huge boon. I wish CSM would get heretic legion books. I wish Eldar would get craftworld books. I with Sob, GK, DW and Inquisition would all get their own books. I wish AdMech and Custodes would get their own books. Speed Freeks. We could keep at it all night, and in so doing unbalance 40K further and further without each write.

The simple truth is SM can be recrafted over & over again from the base models, meaning more opportunities to craft books to fit staunch codex and radical uncodex alike. SM sell and people like their 'unique' books, which means you'll see an SM book of some type each year alongside any other books. Between models in boxes waiting to be built and models built and ready to play, I have 5 distinct SM armies, more than any other force I own, (which includes everything EXCEPT DE, which I intend to rectify when the new book arrives). I'm happy with my new SW book, I look forward to the next BT book, (albeit it doesn't need to come any time soon). I'm also very happy with my new IG book, (my 4th, the first dating back to 1995, predating my start with 40K). I also look forward to the Necron & Tau revamps, SoB revamp and hopefully an Eldar revamp before too long.

Long live the standalone book and may we all have the patience to wait for ours.

[819244]

I actually just took a look at the Witchhunter Codex. For a modest 1 point increase, the Sisters of battle have much more survivability than the baseline Fire Warrior, Close combat ability almost on par with Space Marines, and access to Faith Points.Except the part where they have a lower WS, S, T & I than a MEQ (I believe it's the same S & T) as a Fire Warrior.

Almost on a par? You mean they both have 1 attack (just like a Fire Warrior)?

Much more survivability? You mean the one better armour save?

I'd take 10 Firewarriors over 9 Sisters any day of the week (Acts of Faith notwithstanding!).

If you're wondering why you're losing it's because you're playing a fully mechanised list without a fully mechanised codex. Fish of Fury don't work anymore. The reason SM and Guard play mechanised lists is because the cost of their transports was halved. Tau need Devil Fish for mobility, they do. And they need mobility to stay alive and claim objectives. But running a fully mounted list strikes me as being... suboptimal.

Tau deal with cover saves the same way as anyone else. You can't in one breath bemoan how you can't take special weapons in your basic squads and then in the next complain how cover is making your special weapons worthless. Every shooty army has to deal with the preponderance of cover saves. You know how we do it? By taking fewer low AP weapons and more high ROF weapons. If only the Tau had some kind of ridiculously high strength, long ranged basic weapon on all their troops that they could use to force more saving throws.

Yes, the newer books are "better". That's warhammer. So it is, so it always has been. But when the rules change, your list has to change to match. If you keep playing the same way then of course your win rate is going to suffer.

[nareik123]

If only the Tau had some kind of ridiculously high strength, long ranged basic weapon on all their troops that they could use to force more saving throws.

We all love the great BS of the Tau FW and the ability to soak up great amount of pain that the enemy returns, because we all know that the majority of the enemy can just take AS. But seriously though, I agree that Pulse Rifles are awesome but the Tau FW is ridiculously priced points wise. And whats the point of having a super awesome gun if the man (alien) using it is an average shot?

[Sun]

There is no such thing as balance playing 40k. You would be a fool to think so. Because all GW cares about is selling models, and paying their shareholders. They don't even play test the rules.

If you noticed vehicles with low point cost have some outragoures super ability to kill anything in its path which are their new models. For Example Valk is 130 points, and you can take 9 of them...Hello??!? Bottom line is for you to buy them.

Ever since they shafted Dark Angels, this game has no longer quality to it. All the armies are now generic, blah nothing really special or different about the armies. Lost faith in the game really, when GW mainly concerns is profits. Until maybe like jervus johnson is CEO I might get back into it.

[Kirby]

There is no such thing as balance playing 40k. You would be a fool to think so. Because all GW cares about is selling models, and paying their shareholders. They don't even play test the rules.

And yet the 5 books they have released for this edition and very well balanced. Coupled with the few books which have the joy of fitting well into the 5th edition ruleset (Tau, Witchunters, DE & Eldar) and you've got your most balanced edition of 40k ever. You can take good lists from any of the 5 new books or the 4 old books just mentioned and anyone of them can beat them other assuming even generalship/dice rolls. Whilst I believe IG and Tau top the list of competitive armies is pretty subjective. Here's an in-depth look at the top armies (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/06/bolss-army-rankings-rebuttal-40k-army.html). There is certainly a siginificant drop off to armies like Chaos, Orks, Daemons, Necrons, etc., but that is simply old books not fitting into the current edition and poor codex design of old. If GW continues in the vein they have with the last 5 books, 40k will have more than 12 armies all of which are competitive.


If you noticed vehicles with low point cost have some outragoures super ability to kill anything in its path which are their new models. For Example Valk is 130 points, and you can take 9 of them...Hello??!? Bottom line is for you to buy them.

Nothing wrong with this or encouraging 40k players to buy their product. Ignoring the price, GW has to sell models to stay in business and it's a lot easier to sell something to someone who's already in the game compared to attracting a new customer. If they don't release new models which are good in gaming terms, older players aren't inclined to buy more models. If this style of marketing was impacting upon the balance of the game, I'd agree but see above. You then have the completely contradictory evidence of no Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, Thunderwolf Calvary, Storm Ravens, etc. all of which are good units and GW are losing money over as people don't play those armies or get substitutes elsewhere.


Ever since they shafted Dark Angels, this game has no longer quality to it. All the armies are now generic, blah nothing really special or different about the armies. Lost faith in the game really, when GW mainly concerns is profits. Until maybe like jervus johnson is CEO I might get back into it.

If Jervis became the CEO there would be a mass exodus of balance and competitiveness and tournaments would be an even bigger joke. Did you see the latest release from him? le sigh. I fail to see how Vanilla Marines, SW, BA, Tyranids and IG are generic and blah. Each book has a lot of unique and individual lists which are competitive, examples @ 2k below:

Marines: Bikers, Mech (Dreads/Preds/Speeders), Biker & Mech, Biker & Termies, Dual Termies
IG: Air-Cav, Hybrid, Pure Mech w/multiple variants
SW: Foot w/Calvary, Calvary, Hybrid, Razorspam
Tyranids: Reserve based, Walky Shooty
BA: Jumper, MEQ-Eldar (6 pred), Dread Drop, Blood Rodeo (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/04/ba-fastnslow-2k-aka-blood-rodeo.html)

[MechaEmperor700]

@819244: That one point of Armor save makes alot of difference. alot of things can ignore a 4+ armor save. few can ignore a 3+. I'll admit tho, I overlooked the 3 WS and BS, but that's still better than what the Fire Warrior has. I3 means that they can at least react faster, or at least on par, with other things (namely, on par with Imp Guard, faster than Tau, on par with Plaguemarines, etc...) WS3 also means I dont have to roll 5's to hit something with moderately more combat skill. WS2 of Tau will mean you'll be facing alot more 5+'s than any other army. One Point in those stats can really make a difference (especially since a Squad of Sisters has a much better chance of surviving a Heavy Flamer blast than Tau Fire Warrior does, and most Tyranid heavy weapons). At least if a squad of Sisters are caught being charged, they can hold their own. They also have the same Leadership as Space Marines, which means they wont likely break and be caught in a sweep advance if they loose combat. The way I see it, you basically get +1 to four stats, for the cost of a single point (the Pulse Rifle being balanced out for Faith Points). And the SoB list is older than the current Tau List.

I do agree with your stance of fish of fury and cover saves tho, and I have beated a Vanilla marine mechanised list solely through sheer firepower of my Hammerheads and volume of shots from my Fire Warriors. Hilariously one of my friends actually opted to take the cover save instead of his armor save, then realising his armor was actually better than the cover. I let him redo the rolls, but it didnt turn out any better.

Back on topic: Actually some of the more "broken" units only look broken on paper. In actual playing they are much more tame. A Valk with twin rocket pods sounds pretty great, since it drops two large blast templates a turn. But with BS3, it's not likely those rocket pods are gonna land on target, worse yet it might come right back at you. If it does land, S4 AP6 is not gonna do much unless you're facing nids, in which case killing some gaunts is probably inconsequential. The main weapon also suffers from the BS3 problem of guard vehicles, especially the lascannon. On average you'll get 3 shots off per game. It's a faster, better armored Chimera, but for more than twice the points. The 9 Valk limit is likely for the flying treadheads (planeheads? lol think there's a term but I'm not quite sure) who just love seeing the sight of a fleet of aircrafts. And that, my friend, is anything but "vanilla".

[Time Lord]

Normally I stick with the video game threads, but someone showed me this, so...

Based on the OP, and pardon me if I read it wrong (entirely possible), but it looks as though the OP feels the game is not balanced because a Tau army made up of fire warriors, devilfish, hammerheads and kroot can't handle an army made up of grey hunters and essentially razorback spam.

Now, I'm no expert, but my response would be: what exactly would be balanced to you? Having Fire Warriors cost exactly the same and have the same stats as grey hunters? Making Necron warriors the same? Eldar Guardians?

Yeah, that's fun.

To me, "balance" is about COMPENSATING for the lack you mentioned. Yes, you're quite right. Fire warriors can't mass together to gun down grey hunters anymore, but anybody who fills his army with nothing but fire warriors, kroot and hammerheads deserves to lose. What ELSE is in your list? Where are your crisis suits? The jump-shoot-jump ability is godly when used properly. Angry at the abundance of cover saves in 5th edition? Where are your pathfinders? Your skyrays with markerlights? Three good hits on a single unit, and bam, no more cover save.

Tau DO have a bit of a disadvantage compared to the newer, more well-rounded codices, but they are still competitive, and comparing a few units to another few units is no way to judge an entire gaming system, I think.

[Nikephoros]

I was with you until you said,
my list was built with mech Tau in mind and I have experience. Competitive wise, my list could not have been more optimal.

Forgive me for being skeptical. I would bet my life that you could post your list and I could give you a half dozen things you could do to, ahem, optimize your "optimal" list. But hey, even with a perfect list you could play it poorly and still lose, so the list isn't everything.

[Kryndo]

But hey, even with a perfect list you could play it poorly and still lose, so the list isn't everything.

Something many players (atleast where I am) seem to "forget". Many people complain individual units and changes to weapons etc which is sometimes called for (DOOM!) but really it all comes down to how well you play your list. I play mech Tau btw and i've CRUSHED many kinds of lists with it because of my knowledge of the game and how to use each of my units effectively to win.

Sure an outdated codex can lessen the effectiveness of a unit but a good player will find a new way to use the unit or simply field something else...

Skill > Army List
(Luck helps too!)

[nareik123]

OK, fair enough that I may not have fully optimized the list. I did have the Shas'O which apparently is a big no no (to be fair on my end, I would have saved 25pts, which I really couldn't spend)

[Commissar_Jalil]

You should post your list in S&A for further review.

[nareik123]

I might as well, although I can't actually purchase anything to fix my list.

[Brother Wolf]

Perhaps then a greater discussion on how to use the list you have in different ways than you might have thought of already.

[BrianGeneral]

Finally got time to drop some more words.

Yesterday I played a game against Mech IG@1.5Kpts, normal deployment, 5 objectives.
I use my usual, hybrid army list since last 4th (I keep on using that army) against my friend's IG list------Command Squad/w Fleet on Chimera, 2 Veteran squad /w LC and +1 cover, 1 Veteran squad in Chimera, 1 on Vedentta, rest are Demolisher, Banewolf, Manticore and Colossus. I fought 7 turns (got my initiative stolen) and lost 0-1 since I got no Troops left.
Currently my record with Tau is 5/3/8 in 5th, 2/1/2 this year alone.

I got to write a new tactica about Tau in 5th later on, but since the discussion was running before this game, I also tried to observe and see if anything went wrong. And some are as follows:

1. Tau is SERIOUSLY overcosted than anyone else.
Some argue that FW and Kroot are some of the best cost-effective old troops. Probably, but try to obeserve everything else in the army. Now, some people say "units from new books are more expensive", but they're mostly SCs and overtooling units/vehicles for that, the rest? Not really. Other older armies don't have overspecialized, fragile units with a freaking high cost------not even Eldar. When we can only rely on Crisis suits for mid-Strength firepower, and which is the cost of a new Chimera......You get the point.

2. RoF?
Naturally speaking, the way to get a squad killed is to pump as many shots as possible (I'm disregarding the plain-stupid Wound Allocation already). It can be done by Tau for sure (remember the Pies?), but guess what, as Naerik also pointed, enemies now have more bodies than what I can kill. That will bring up the next point......

3. Cover is REALLY what hinders Tau's long-range firepower.
Someone above say 3+ is not really better than 4+. Seriously, a 16% difference can be a matter of life and death------and that's only theorical. In practice it's easier to roll a 3+ than 4+ or 5+. Bear in mind that 4th covers are mostly 5+, few terrains can reach 4+......Now 4+ cover is everywhere, and with many abilities to +1 for that, what? Once I fought a Marine army with Lysander and a Scout squad /w Camo Cloaks, and the result isn't pretty.

The really fun point? Tau's answer to cover is Markerlight, but due to point costs you can't have much of that------let alone a Pathfinder squad (which aren't Troops in the instance).
I must say, older codices may be disadvantaged in newer editions, but seriously it shouldn't be THAT much.