How do wounds work?

[Shakrith]

How do they work? Are they like in 40K, with a few wounds before death, or like in other RTS games with a large amount of hit points?

[Falcrum]

As far as I know, that information hasn't been released as of yet, but a cross between the two systems seems a good guess.

[The Collector]

Probably HP-based.

[M37]

Yah most likely HP-based but it would be nice if thier is a chance of inflicting a critical hit. a critical hit, would do anyware from 2-4 times the normal damage. so if we asueme each person has 50hp and part way throgh a battle they get hit by a weapon with a 5hp . if the other side scores a critical hit the damage would be incressed to 10hp.

[Thandrim]

Well that would be a rather bad blow to the hopefulness of this game. Tossing out the very game mechanics of 40K and replacing it with a standard(ish) RTS featuring 40K mods and themes isn't exactly tickling my fancy.

[Civik]

40k board game and an RTS are two wholly seperate things. It's not going to kill the game if it's HP based.

If they can get a wound based system to work, great, but I'm not certain that the system could be applied to an RTS simply because dice are harder to come by. ;)

[DarthFelth]

well i think they can, i mean they must have for games like dark omen, i mean with teh tolls so you just added in the stats you wanted..

[The Collector]

lol. You play DOW and see a blur of a little dice rolling in the corner for armor saves as every bullet from a automatic bolter is rolled so fast it looks like HP.

You could just have a HP value equal to the "wounds" value, and then it drops or something with a probability element based on the unit's Armor/Toughness value.

[Thandrim]

Originally posted by Civik
40k board game and an RTS are two wholly seperate things. It's not going to kill the game if it's HP based.

No, it certainly won't kill the game. But it won't help either. Instead of looking a broadening of the 40K hobby it will just be another RTS with 40K mods and themes.


Originally posted by Civik
If they can get a wound based system to work, great, but I'm not certain that the system could be applied to an RTS simply because dice are harder to come by. ;)

Oh I don't know, the Total War series of games seemed to manage a much better system for their battle engine without trouble. You know, troops there once hit and wounded. . .die. That is the key difference between HP and Wound systems is that most things in the 40K universe/game die the first time they suffer damage. Thusly it's their armor and cover that give them survivability. Most RTS systems instead focus on the buzzsaw grind of hitpoints.

Gameplay wise it makes the difference between knowing for certain that when your squad fires that they WILL do damage to the enemy forces for roughly the same effect every time vs. knowing when your squad fires that they might get really lucky, or screw things up and not kill/harm anything, or land somewhere in between.

Significant difference in how the game feels and plays overall.

[Vijil]

probability is definitely good. Hit points are fine, so long as there is a genuinely random probability based system for determining hits and damage. Otherwise it gets kinda boring. Having "wounds" as such wouldn't make any difference to the actual gameplay, there are other ways to have the same effect.

[No Surrender]

I would hate to lose in an RTS game because of bad luck.

[Tribunal]

Yes, too many times the dice decided to hate me, and on a whim to smite my all powerful hordes....

Since there will be life bars on each character, it would be safe to assme that there will be a certain amount of HP per character.

An interesting not is how there will be the morale style bar under the HP bar, and how, when depleted, the units may panic etc. It would be neat to see a unit get low in life, be far away from your commanding officer, and running away in panic because he didn't want to die.

[Elof]

I think missing would add to the game , no certianties just like on the table top and rl , you never know when that little bullet will find the incrdibly vunrable armour point on a space marine and kill instantly

of the gretchin kills the marine in hand to had with crit and good rolls

[RogueFox]

When playing Space Crusade, i used to hate it when my Marines lost in Hand to Hand combat to a Gretchin because i rolled 0 on 2d6.

Those white dice sucked in Space Crusade, they were six sided.......4 sides had a score of 0, the other 2 sides had a score of 1 and 2.

[Civik]

I don't usually consider that thing a health bar, it's more like a luck bar. When your luck runs out, you're screwed. ;) Or cored... or little bitty bits on the battle field.

So a marine will have a better chance against a lasgun (which would do fairly little damage to marine armor unless it found a really good chink in it) as opposed to an Earthshaker cannon round, which he has little to no hope of surviving.

[DARKMASTER]

yeah. Critical hit would ruin the game! Me thinks this should be different for each unit. A dreadnaught should be able to crush the smaller units in a blow (wich is likely cause of the screenshot) or the way units get flinged away when hit by an explosion. Either they will get up with a loss of HP or they will die instant.

As in war3 the damage is based upon the ARMOR type and it seems like this will be something of the same. Different weapons will do different damage on different armors.

[gozo]

I really really hope they will make armor values count. What I hate the most in many RTSs - C&C for example - is that you can destroy a tank with rifle if you keep shooting long enough. Lasgun mustn't have any effect on Land Raider and Terminator armor should in my opinion be impenetrable for the weakest weapons.

However, I don't have any problems with critical hits as long as they occur rarely enough.

[Tribunal]

From the posts from the Relic crew, over time a lasgun crew could do it... If you had an hour of free time on your hands and the Land Raider didn't shoot back!!!! :bandit:

I wouldn't worry about it, they're fans of the game, they won't botch it up.

[corkill]

What the hell are you guys talking about? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Health Point and damage systems already used in RTS games, and i'd bet my 40k collection that the same kind of system will be used in DoW.


Tossing out the very game mechanics of 40K and replacing it with a standard(ish) RTS featuring 40K mods and themes isn't exactly tickling my fancy.

Lucking you don't make games then. Have you ever played a game of 40k in real time, no gee thats strange because its turn based. How exactly do you propose that a REAL TIME STRATEGY game uses the mechanics of a TURN BASED game? Do you want your guys to move 6' every time you move them then stop???

As for laguns shooting up Land Raiders (we don't even know if IG are in the game, and if they are you proably can't fight them), Relic has already said they will be able too. But it will take a long time and the Raider will proably waste you. This is exactly how it should be, I mean say you have 100 of your IG buddies surrounding a Land Raider (all jokes aside about the lasgun being a flashlight) firing into it for a few minutes, its not going to come out unscathed no matter how many AP 14 sides it has.

[Thandrim]

Originally posted by corkill
What the hell are you guys talking about? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Health Point and damage systems already used in RTS games, and i'd bet my 40k collection that the same kind of system will be used in DoW.

Oh nobody is saying there is anything wrong with the old, predictable, and boring HP systems of previous RTS games. Except perhaps for that fact that they are old, predictable, and boring.


Lucking you don't make games then. Have you ever played a game of 40k in real time, no gee thats strange because its turn based. How exactly do you propose that a REAL TIME STRATEGY game uses the mechanics of a TURN BASED game? Do you want your guys to move 6' every time you move them then stop???

I'm actually suprised you are even slightly confused as to how to translate the board game to a computer game. Afterall for the issue of damage you are simply replacing auto-hit and static damage with variable odds to hit and possible damage determined by armor and hopefully cover. Do you honestly hold the opinion that the folks at Relic are too stupid to figure out how to do that? Personally I'm rather confident in their coding skills.



As for laguns shooting up Land Raiders (we don't even know if IG are in the game, and if they are you proably can't fight them), Relic has already said they will be able too. But it will take a long time and the Raider will proably waste you. This is exactly how it should be, I mean say you have 100 of your IG buddies surrounding a Land Raider (all jokes aside about the lasgun being a flashlight) firing into it for a few minutes, its not going to come out unscathed no matter how many AP 14 sides it has.

Of course it will get scratched, but the problem you don't seem to be getting is that scratched is all it would be. Period, end of statement. I've not seen where Relic has said that you'll be able to kill a Land Raider by stabbing it with a knife long enough, (possibly just blinding myself to it) but if true my cautious optimism for this game just became resignation to watch yet another low-brow Games Workshop based computer game roll out for poor sales and even poorer reviews. And I do pray that is not the case. GW has seen enough horrid translations in the past, neither it, nor we need another.

[Elof]

were talking about the fact that in that scenario theres a chance of a las gun hitting the ammo and blowing the whole thing , while yes most would bounce off in a tabletop game , thats what were talking about converting the feel , not the mechanics

if i open up with a bunch of orks on the tabletop im not likely to cause much damage unless there armed with heavy or custom weapons , games like cc taking out a tank with machine gun fire just makes a tank usless , it should have stratigic value , ie you move your tank or heavy weapons to stop it and not rely on your weak infantry to wear it down

[DR_RANSOM]

The problem with the HP system is that it ignores all aspects of warfare. With an HP based system in a game massed infantry can take out armor. Meanwhile in real life that would be a joke. I would prefer a system where the gun has 1 or 2 wounds. this would represent that each a IG couldn't take 4 hits from a bolter. The low wounds would be off set by a massive amount of varibles that would be factored in the shot before it causes a would.

About tanks: tanks do not die slowly, nor from small arms fire. A T-72 could take a massive amount of AK-47 fire and still not die. A Land-Raider in 40K should theoretically be able to take lasgun fire for years and not die. The only problem is that people are used to having mass infantry take out tanks. but is doesn't work that way. I hope Relic realizes that tanks do not die to small arms fire like in other rts games but only die to Anti tank weapons

[Shadione]

The average 2000 point game of Warhammer 40,000 is supposed to represent roughly 12-24 seconds of combat, and at the end of that usually both sides are decimated. Controlling the actions and reactions of 100+ guys in true real-time in a meaningful way when every shot that hits is lethal is beyond 99% of the people on this Earth, which is why RTS games use HP systems.

Even games like the Total War series use some kind of 'extended combat' system like HP. They may not call it HP, or visualize it in that manner, and they may add things like accuracy and random damage, but they use it. All you have to do to know this is watch 1000 arrows reign down on a squad and kill 2 people to know that either their is HP at work, or you've been equipped with the least accurate archers that have ever existed in the history of mankind.

The reason RTS's use these systems is to: 1) Give players time to react to combat. 2) Make combat easy to understand by making results predictable. In turn-based games you have as long as your opponent will put up with you to react, and combat is easier to understand because you have stats laid out before you to tell you what your units are good at, and you can see the dice roll results (so you understand when bad or good luck strikes). None of these things are conveyed in a real-time game, so the player has no opportunity to learn if an RTS uses statistical systems like those used in tabletop 40k.

We do have accuracy in the game, and variable damage, all to add a bit of randomness. But no, we don't use a wounds system. As I've mentioned elsewhere, our goal is to make a great RTS game set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, not a direct translation of the tabletop game. We're attempting to translate some 40k systems that we think will be good for RTS's, and re-invent a few others, but a direct tabletop translation to an RTS game really sells both games short.

If you like the Warhammer 40,000 universe hopefully you'll like our game, but if you're more attached to the tabletop game ruleset, well, we may not be for you.

[Shadione]

Originally posted by DR_RANSOM
The only problem is that people are used to having mass infantry take out tanks. but is doesn't work that way. I hope Relic realizes that tanks do not die to small arms fire like in other rts games but only die to Anti tank weapons

We do. :)

[corkill]

Gee what a surprise Thandrim. I hope this clears your head of all your wonderful innovations for the future of RTS games.

Here's a few helpfull links you don't seem to of found

Relic's forum FAQ (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23776)

Dawn of War Interview with Jay Wilson (http://pc.ign.com/articles/498/498701p1.html)

Also a nice read is PC Gamers latest issue. You can find it on the net if you can't afford it.

And all you guys interested in weaker weapons attacking armour check out the third post on this page please. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24894&pagenumber=3)

[gozo]

Originally posted by Shadione


We do. :)

:thumb: :yippee: :banana: :clap: :agree: :bow2:

[Richtofen]

Okay, heres a question then.

Will units work up to their peek performance until they die or will their combat effectiveness degrade as they lose health? Will tanks have something like this? Can I blow off one of the sponsons of a land raider?

[Szedrencs]

I think most people's - so also mine - problems with the HP system are the following:

- You have units with 1 HP running around, with a combat effectiveness which is the same of the 100HP units of the same type. This is poop. Are there any plans from sides of Relict to introduce levels of damage to infantry units? (So maybe I could shoot the bolter out of the hands - maybe with the hands included :) - of that Ultramarine guy by chance? (Like it was eg. in Soldier of Furtune II ? Yeah, I know it's not an RTS, but I'm talking about the damage model.) Ok, SM are tough guys, so maybe they can fight effectively with 1 severed arm, and 1 HP, but in case of the Orks this is not the same case.

I would like to see a damage model like it was in the APRM Mod of Sudden Strike I, or like it is used in the Combat Mission series of Battlefront (sure thing, CM is TBS, but I guess it could be 'converted' somehow.)

[corkill]

Hey Szedrencs, yeah I understand your point. I think the problem is though the more you try to implement these "real" factors into what is essentially a game you lose the fun of it. Although it seems stupid a guy on 1 HP is just as effective it really is a tried and tested formula and its fun to play and doesn't over complicate things, IMHO.

BTW you underestimate ork toughness, to quote some GW fluff "They feel very little pain and can keep fighting even if they lose a limb or sustain a major body wound".

It's often said orks cry when they get their gun arm blown off not because of the pain but because they can't shoot beakies anymore.

[Diackon]

i must agree with Thandrim. Worse u can do now in RTS is to make HP based sysytem. LOL such system like u said was in KKND guys could mis etc.
Again in MTW there r no HP u can see/edit all units char in a text file, what counts is attack value defense vaule and armour, nothing more for killing of caurse.
And pls dont make another arcade game like Warcraft series, there is no strategy there (only to make right units and right buildings in best time).
Wound system is very easy to made, those variables are one of easiest sorry its like random from 1-6 with 6 giving a wound for example. Caurse there should be more than one variable.
If u all want to know whats a real strategy read Sun-Tzu ...
Hehe most of that rules are applied in MTW so dont tell me it cant be done.
i've seen lots of morale rules and for my opinion there r only 2 realistic ones MTW and American Conquest, cause units dont panic only if they get shooted whole units can rout before fightihns starts. For morale there shoudl be lots lots lots of variables.
Hope there'll be in DoW.
Hope DoW wont be just another RTS theoritically with new ideas in fact v. boring like lots of games lastly realesed.

:sniper:

[Anthonace]

how will the accuracy system work?

will the units have a percentage of hit chance
eg Space Marine 60%, ork 25%

or will it be that space marines shoot straighter than orks
space marine fireing spread ll ork firing spread \/

did you get what i mean

[Richtofen]

hehe american conquest is awesome. I had some aztec allies peasants panic and flee from my frigate when it was just off shore and opened fire on a horde of like 500 warriors with macans heading to my base.

[DARKMASTER]

well, we all agree in that RTS need a evolution. And units responding when they get hit etc is a good start, and it also seems like relic is to an excent using this system.

[Thandrim]

Originally posted by Shadione


We do. :)

Definetly some hope there, and good to see.
It is true that you can say that all games with a battle system (Total War series included) do use hitpoints in a fashion. Difference then being that games such as TW give most/all of their units 1 hit point, and rely upon accuracy and armor factors to determine life or death. I would take issue with the idea that one game of the 40K tabletop game represents less than 30 seconds of real time. Afterall, even a modern Abrams would be pressed to fire 5-6 shots in 30 seconds. Not that the represented battle time is really long though. Perhaps 10 minutes maximum. Ultimately a moot point of course, we'll just have to see how the game comes together.
:moo:

[DR_RANSOM]

Thandrim, I agree with you on the HP system. But I hope in this game armor value actually dose something. I hope the a space marine can take a hit from a shoota (for example) and not lose any HP.
I hope that you can dig troops in (read trenches) and increase their life span.

We do.
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Thandrim]

That's just the kind of thing I'm hoping to see. A game in which the Space Marine survives a shoota shot not because he's got more hitpoints, but because. . . <gasp> the shot bounced off his armor!
:sniper:

[Diackon]

And thats the point. I wouldnt like to be able to count how many shoots i need to kill one marine (like in starcraft) Give grunts a chance to have their 5 min. With HP all is so predictable. There is no fun when u have everything counted before battle :P :vikingb:

[FluxX]

The HW2 chance to hit helps a little...

IE, a cap ship gun, thats rather large, but slow and inacurate, can, out of "chance" hit a fighter.

This means, that to your surprise, a large capship killing ship, takes out your fighter squadron.

So, in Warhammer language, your bullets from a weak gun could bounce of his armour... and from a large gun, or armour peircing, could hit 100% :) .

[Marucs]

I feel like I'm stating the obvious when I say that this is stuff that Relic is going to work out in detail by testing various builds of the game. There's really no other way to see what damage implementation will end up being for fun in this game.

Warhammer rules are fine and all for table-top playing, but it may not be as fun in DoW. All we can hope for is that Relic will try stuff out and pick their choice.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if DoW turns into something with no WH rules and is more like a new TA with Warhammer units, story, and style. Remember that the WH rules were initially created to simulate reality. Why emulate the simulation if you can go back to the source and simulate reality all over again?

[Shakrith]

I think a great bit of chace should be introduced so that an ork actually can beat a marine, or that cultists could take down termies (if there are any...), but not so much chance that your nice new devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters and 6 bolter guys firing at point blank range wouldn't wipe out pretty much any infantry they came into contact with.

[Diackon]

Marucs HP are not simulating reality. When u have 1% of health u should be dying not fully operational. In wounds system casaulities dont take 100% they can take 75% but after that they r not operational any more to badly wounded to fight on. And thats reality. HP wont be real. Even in real it spossible that v. heavily armoured knight can be killed with an arrow realesed bu conscript. So dont say thats impossible for a term. to be killed by grot. I bet they dont see much in that term armours :) and grots are tiny nasty creatures who can sneak around and place some nasty demo pack on term back :P

You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended

You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.

Sun-Tzu The Art of War

Learn from him :)

[Maximus Decimus]

your statements r true but what if the term armor has auto targetting sensors in the guys helm so he knows where his enemy is(which in all probebility he does). the point is that it would be unrealistic and most unlikely that a grot would say take down a wolf lord in runic armor with lightning claws because he is swift, deadly, and heavily armored.

i think wounds should work like this for heroes:

1) the enemy below x type of weapon has a 35% chance not scoring a damaging hit on the hero

2) x amount of life bars where when they are depleted the character dies.

or

1) same

2) hero has a value that subtracts off the damage taken example defence value 10 - damage 25 = 15 damage taken.

anything along those lines id like.

[Diackon]

Ok I was unable to kill that lord even with Lemun Russ so I know that grot wont kill him but regural term is not a God so can be wiped by a horde of little green creatures (yeah probably just cause he dont have any ammo left) :fencing: In reality fighting with more then one oponent is really very hard and fighting with 10-15 Yeah go ahead for a football match. Even great hero can be laid down by a strike of a dagger ( in Hp system it would look like this dagger has 5 dam hero has 300hp so the dagger needs 60 attacks to kill that hero, more sophisticated way dagger has 5 damage and 40% chance of inflicting criticial dam. [which is usualy 2-3 times standard damage] so i need a machine for stabbing and a real stupid hero who will wait till i finish...) In wound sysytem it looks like that 60% chance to hit then armour save abd result die or live. Its like in real life u have luck and bullet misses u or u dont have it and it hits u. U dont have HP imagine U.S. Marine in Iraq saying "those damn terrorists cant hurt me I got vest which reduces theyr dam by 5 and still i have 74% of HP" Anyway its good at all that there will be RTS in WH40K world :3dcool:

[Marucs]

Diackon, with the phrase "simulate reality" I did not mean an accurate simulation of the real world. Rather, I meant that it's the universe of WH that's inspiring the game, not the rule set. The health-bar is, in fact, a simulation of wounding and health, just not a very accurate one. The wounds system is nice and all, but perhaps the reason you haven't seen it in an RTS is because it doesn't work in an RTS. I wager neither you or I knows for sure whether or not it does.
I leave it up to Relic to decide.

I do hope that Relic devs have read Sun Tzu. It'd be neat if they consciously incorporate the principles found in The Art of War in DoW. Now THAT would allow for real strategy. :)

[FluxX]

Lol...

Marcus, perhaps, you should wonder if Relic want to simulate reality at all?

They already said on this thread (go back a page or 2)... that reality is boring!

In reality, you go to war, get shot, die....

Or, go to war, shoot poeple, they die, you come back...

A totally real simulation, would be too fast, too complicated or too difficult to be a good game.

Thats why chess is soo simple and yet so popular :) .

[Civik]

You'd also think that a shield drone couldn't take out a Wolf Priest... but I watched my roommate's Crisis squad Shield drones do it twice.

A grot could hurt a terminator, it's just been designed to be highly unlikely.

[Marucs]

Myeh, either you misunderstand, or I miscommunicate. Let's try again. (but why? To postpone some boring programming I have to do is why)

Almost every game out there simulates reality in some way or other. Hit point bars simulate reality in that if you get shot bunch, you die. Wounds simulate reality a bit more accurately in that if you get shot in the head, you die faster than if you get shot in your toe.

"Reality is boring" is exactly why the wounds system might not work. On the other hand, maybe the wounds system will work better than hitpoints.

Take a step back, and think of a game where there are no hitpoints or wounds. This is even less close to reality than anything used in RTS before. Say a unit gets slowed down instead of destroyed, and the objective of the game is not the destruction of the enemy, but the attainment of some objective. Could this game not be more fun than a game where units are destroyed?

Um, have I made clear the way I see damage systems in games now? Rats, then I must work instead. :[

[Diackon]

lol lol lol lol lol lol
and again lol :) chess do have wounds system one hit one dead :) :beer: :beer:

[Maximus Decimus]

well we all know from the interview that there will be realism here and there in this game. this includes whats been stated about it not being smart to charge a squad or 2 of marines at a tank, relic basically stated if you want to take out a tank you better bring anti tank weapons. this has been a much argued debate in the past on this forum and i like that its been incorporated(i win :banana: lol) as i wouldnt want to see a landraider get shot up by a squad and blow up like in starcaft. knowing this they will probebly do the same thing where its rlly hard to kill a character in h2h or shooting unless you have a heavy weapon or plasma/melta gun.

[MVB]

sorry if it's been said already, didn't necessarily read every post, but if they want a real time game, you inherently can't do wounds ... damage is consistently applied and received by units in a realtime situation, and so hp has to be used to understand the graduation of health. Wounds themselves ARE only hit points, after all, but they're inherently lower because of the slower pace and single-fire-at-a-time nature of turn based tabletop gaming.

In fact, there really is no difference whatsoever between hit points and wounds.

Imagine, that in the realm of it all, Armor = Toughness, HP = Wounds; they both affect the game in the exact same fashion. Merely, Wounds uses a higher number for ease of understanding ... they could just as easily use ... say, 3 hp/wounds, and have the weapon take decimal points off as it fires into the unit, or they could just extend the digits and make it 3000, so now the weapon makes an impact that most people can more easily recognize.

Imagine that a turn encompasses a real life time of, oh, say a minute. X weapon does "1" wound in "1" minute. In the game, you're seeing the real time illustration of this -- namely, that 1 wound is caused over the course of an actual minute ... and that wound is translated into more readily understandable terms in the form of hiptpoints using an enlarged number. 1000 hp = 1 wound.

Make sense? It's not that there's any difference at all between wounds and hp ... it's just silly rhetoric.

[Diackon]

The difrence is that EVERY shoot makes damage so in most games it looks like that 100 infs in two series can take out one heavy tank just beacuose every one of them scored 1hp on it. The reason why aply wounds system is that u can take several shoots and they can bounce off the armour or take one directly in to the head and game is over. Its not just a diffrence between 1hp and 1000 hp cause u have to aply difrent mechanisms of hiting wounding etc.

And I always thought that one turn is a couple of seconds..........Its not WFB its 40K everything goes faster..... :)

Wow and how about combining two systems wounds/hp ???
Lest say that we have armour which can just bounce off the bullets and when finaly a hit is scored let the bullet take 30-50% of HP (adding or substracting difrent variables like cover distance from explosions etc.)

I think that main diffrence betweeen wound system and hp is armour. Cause in HP units ALWAYS DO some damage and in wounds system they CAN DO damage but dont have to (thnx to armour).

So my stand is: Ok let it be HP system but pls include armour not as substract from damage done by enemy but as ability to bounce enemy bullets and for me its ok.

[MVB]

If I read correctly in another post, it looks like they WILL have armor be a deciding factor in some ways; i.e., what was said was basically that

if say a TON of guys with bolters were to fire on a tank for a LONG ASS time, they might kill it, but the tank had better not be firing or moving, and there'd better not be any other units around.

so it sounds like yes, that'll be the case

[corkill]

Hey MVB nice explaining, surely even the most foolish of the pro Wounds argument people will understand it now.

[Diackon]

No that dont explain it. Just i dont want to argue more at think that is obvoius. Wounds are real and Hp not end of statement.

[MVB]

They're the same thing

As far as damage distribution based on location of hit, you can still determine that by having different locations suffer more hp damage, just as they'd suffer more or total wound damage.

[The Collector]

Wounds are hit points. You run out of them and die. They're just "harder to lose" in warhammer through armor saves and such, and appropriately units have less of them.

Whereas in RTS' you can accurately model sustained damage over a period of time so prolonged amounts of HP are possible.

[mr_mich]

If you're going to throw in the realism argument, I'm sure that the oh-so-realistic genetically-engineered super-soldiers of the year 40,000 would have some kind of self-healing capability or equipment to allow them to fight through most wounds.

I don't see a terminator getting shot by a Shoota and then saying "I cannot Brother Captain, my arm hurts and I need a band-aid."

HP is just a numerical reflection of wounds, they could both be implemented if Relic wanted to by remembering each unit's wound locations and inhibiting performance accordingly. Of course, that wouldn't be too efficient and I don't think it's realistic that a game set so far in the future would have such complicating algorithms.

:P

[corkill]

Wounds are real and Hp not end of statement.

How many wounds do I have?? I was attacked by an ant yesterday and my armour didn't save me, so I lost a wound (I'm a standard Imperial citizen EG 1 wound). Yet I'm not dead so I guess I have more than one wound. Doesn't it seem a bit more realistic that I lost some hit points and if I lose a lot more I will die or have you played 40k so much that you think the wound system applies to real life???


Whereas in RTS' you can accurately model sustained damage over a period of time so prolonged amounts of HP are possible.

Exactly right. Some nerds I think would actually like a dice in the game that you get to roll. This isn't the table-top version that they worship so much (so do I for that matter), find some friends to play 40k with if you want to play with wounds.

[deggy]

As jay (Shadione) has said, we are not recreating the tabletop game. We are making an RTS in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

We're using the tabletop systems for inspiration, but not as the rule. Our goal is to make a game that is fun and accessible to fans of both genres - RTS's and Warhammer 40K - and that's what you'll find when you play DoW! (he says with absolute certainty ;) )

cheers!
-chris

ps. don't smack-talk nerds! we have rights too :)

[The Collector]

Wounds were created since you can't model every second of the game: ie Space Marine has 40 HP and loses 4 per second to the attacking Dark Eldar or whatever. So to save everyone time they minimize the calculations involved by having "wounds" (which are like super-HP) and are harder to lose via armor and invulnerable saves.

As a analogy for why "wounds" is simpler then HP to model if you don't have a computer, consider the two card games Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh! MtG you have 20 HP, stuff attacks for about 1, 2, 3, 4, and such.

In Yu-Gi-Oh you have...I forget. 5k, 8k hp or something like that, and units attack for 500, 750 etc.

MtG has a wounds style system where the numbers are smaller and each loss counts for more. Yu-Gi-Oh has larger values to play with, and is like HP. For the most part, it's easy for computers to play with large numbers then it is for humans. I cannot imagine having to keep track of the HP of every person in the tactical squads, assault squads, devastator squads, then the HP of each particular tank, the HP of each "subsystem" (sponson mounts, turrets, treads)...

So yes. Wounds were created as a convienence for the end-user when modelling damage. HP is just bigger numbers, which is less simple, but both are basically the same deal. Number goes down, then you die.

[Thandrim]

Quite true Deggy. My concern here spawns from the dangerously high likelyhood that watching a Marine's "lifebar" slowly drain as he takes fire will not enable the 40K fan to feel as though he really is playing a 40K inspired game. That element of gameplay will be lost with a classic damage system. If armor takes on it's usual RTS role, this won't help as it means that a Marine would take less damage from a given weapon than say an Ork. Thusly earning a ho-hum response. Now of course if armor plays an actual 'stopping' role in damage, that will help.

[Dimension]

mmh. i wonder if it would be to CPU heavy to define 2-3 hit areas. such as legs/torso or legs/torso/arms. each area has comparatively low HP, meaning one or two hits will render the area defunct. a hit to the leg will make a unit limp, a hit to the arm will decrease accuracy and RoF, 2-3 hits to the torso will kill the unit.

but i guess we can file that idea under "aint gonna happen".

[corkill]

My concern here spawns from the dangerously high likelyhood that watching a Marine's "lifebar" slowly drain as he takes fire will not enable the 40K fan to feel as though he really is playing a 40K inspired game.

Yeah I proably won't even be enabled into knowing I'm really playing a Warhammer 40,000 inspired game, you need to make it more obvious than having orks running around shooting up space marines, dreadnoughts ripping apart opponents in close combat, chaos space marines being torn apart by demonic possession. How can that be 40k inspired RTS without a boring stupid wound system???

[Azmodai]

But a Lascannon on the other hand.......

[Barkarot]

Hmm well i wonder will Walkers with Dn ccw instant kill normal troop? I mean that picture where Orc is in Dreadnought ccw hand its crushed and i think his hand is off. Will there then be str too? Its just not good if i can just get 5orc and destroy dd before it kills my orcs just example. It reminds me zero hour or what ever c&c game where i buy much rangers to destroy tanks. I hope they do something else like they write that melee will be very good. Who needs Land raider if you can destroy it with bolt pistol or shoota or something like that. I think that they wont do melee just like in normal rts game.

Like i said in one other message wh40k is not very compatible with rts. It should just like Combat mission`s with melee of cource. It reminds me so much of wh40k.

[Shadione]

Its just not good if i can just get 5orc and destroy dd before it kills my orcs just example. It reminds me zero hour or what ever c&c game where i buy much rangers to destroy tanks. I hope they do something else like they write that melee will be very good. Who needs Land raider if you can destroy it with bolt pistol or shoota or something like that. I think that they wont do melee just like in normal rts game.

We've already stated that pistols, shootas, axes, and other small arms will not affect most vehicles (some very light vehicles can be affected by low-end weapons, but not tanks or dreadnoughts). Those Orks can hit that Dreadnought with axes all day if they like, but it won't do them any good, he'll just keep on squishing them happily.

You'll notice that in every shot of standard Orks fighting a dreadnought in CC the Orks are losing, badly.

[Azmodai]

LOL cus orks are da sux0rz

[Barkarot]

Im sorry that i forgot to edit my message. I first send then read all others(bad move)

How i can use my own avatar not standard? Stupid guestion maybe but i see now place to write url of avatar. Off-topic but pretty harmless i guess.

[Dimension]

wait till a tankbusta tapes a bomb on your ass :D

[Triceron]

The only way I see the wound system working in an RT situation is if units have high damage but only hit based on accuracy. Now this means that means in most battles, your units would be firing nonstop and battles would either end real quickly, since shots are hitting; or be fought perpetually, because neither side is getting shots. It might work if it could be controlled, like with that whole morale system that's being implemented, maybe have units be able to fight their best when morale is high and start missing a lot when their morale is low, and the key to winning is keeping your own morale high and lowering the enemy's.

Hit/miss is usually seen as more of an uncontrolled factor, it's all luck. But I think if it CAN be controlled in a large scale, like with morale, then maybe it would make the game more akin to the tabletop game.