constructive criticism

[BirdyNumNum]

i've been a long time strategy gamer, i've played em all. while reading the faq there were a few things that cought my attention.

1. the entire idea of resource management, capturing strategic locations and no harvesters and what not, i thought was a really great idea, and represents warhammer well in these aspects.

2. base management on the other hand brought questions to my mind. i like the style you are going for, but this i feel could be problematic.
quote from the faq;
Bases in our game are not meant to represent cities or empires, but rather 'field bases'; the last refuge before the front line. They're locations for troops to rest, re-supply, and get back to the fight.
while this is a remarkable idea i feel it would be too micro intensive and grueling to have to take your troops back to your camp to re-stock in ammo. i feel strategy games have avoided this concept for a reason thus far, it takes away from the action. kind of funny how you are trying to avoid marcro resource management when this would clearly be more intensive. however, it also made me think of how you employ a nice close combat system, where when you troops run out of ammo they are simply put on a close combat setting. i've been thinking about this for some time, and i've even made a starcraft mod that employed actual ammunition for your troops, perhaps i didn't map it out as well as i could have, but i found trying to make things to realistic can sometimes take a lot out of the gameplay, and so i say proceed with caution into this area.

3. i'd just like to say i'm loving this :) awesome feature that will definetly help people get a more personal feel for the game.

"Players do have an option to create their own color scheme, badges, and war banners. It works similarly to Homeworld 2, where players choose a primary and secondary color, except we have four different colors you can change. Players can select badges (special iconography that appears on units) from those we have available, or they can create their own outside of the game and import them in. They can do the same with war banners, which are similar to badges but only appear on banners held by units and structures." -- Jay Wilson

4. as for playable races, space marines, orks, chaos space marines, they all seem kind of similar in a sense where there is going to be a lot of gun fire, and not too much of anything else. i feel a nice balance could be made by adding tyranids to the roster of playable races. they would bring diverse building schemes and a nearly totaly different style of play. who can resist a swarm of hormagaunts charging at you while you fire you gun madly in terror.

5. i've been a warcraft 3 tft player for some time, and have done well on the ladder. some people ask me why do i chose to play this game rather than other strategy games, and the answer is a simple one. the heroes. i've found the worst thing about strategy games is that in the first couple of minutes you have nothing to do but build your base and wait. heroes add a very nice touch to and RTS that keeps you on your toes. now i'm not saying warhammer 40k dawn of war needs a similar system, i'm sugesting a system where there could be a few key units that players could emphasize on, like single commanding units that give significant boosts to your army, that players could micro manage on their own.

6. as a sort of follow up to #5, i feel when your core units have skills, as well as your elite troops, it can add a lot of fun gameplay.
i feel that to win in most strategy games having a larger usually does the job no matter what units you may have. this i hope is not the case for warhammer 40k dawn of war. though the unit countering system in warcraft 3 is still flawed after many patches, i feel it is generaly a well balanced system that adds a lot more to the game, as agaisnt a good player, mass building a single unit will not work because each unit has a counter. in a lot of cases methods used to counter is a skill that the unit has.

as i look behind me at my shelf of strategy games, i see the old greats. 'Shadow of the Horned Rat,' 'Dark Omen,' Epic 40k Final Liberation,' and ,'Chaos Gate.' all in all, i cant wait to add this one to my collection.

[Soulblighter]

1. absolutely agree. this one solution finally puts the focus back on the battles instead of having a real time resource strategy game.

2. although i hear your concerns i think i am going to wait to hear more about this. the idea of healing troops is a good one. and the resupply aspect might work depending on what you are resupplying... i hope that the avg soldier does not need a new supply of ammo but they use it for tanks and such.. maybe they can only carry so many missiles or heavy weapon ammunition, but will have an unlimited supply of weaker ammo... not sure though.

3. once again we are on the same page. it was great in hw, and the addition of badges was a definite plus to hw2. going to be quite something in multiplayer to customize your own groups of space marines, orks, et al.

4. well they are still keeping a race secret for mp play, so just hope. i think the tyranids would be a nice addition to mp and sp play. my guess on the fifth race for sp (that is not playable in mp) is the imperial guard, not sure why just a hunch i have.

5. well the sp follows the story of a hero.. not sure if they will incorporate him and others into mp. considering how many heroes there are in the universe of wh40k i can see it happening though.

on a side note welcome to the forums and great post overall:).

[Tacit]

"They're locations for troops to rest, re-supply, and get back to the fight. "

I think you're reading this a bit too literally.

[BirdyNumNum]

yeah i guess i did misinterpret that a little bit, my bad. :)

[Lupovski]

great post birdy ...

re heroes ... in the case of the wh40k there are already units that can give a considerable boost to fighting troops which i'm sure will be included in the game. For example, psykers(librarians), standard bearers (like brother betor of the dark angels) and chaplains.

i agree with you re the tyranids. That would include a race in the game that has close combat as a storng point instead of long range shooting. despite all this i still wish eldar could be there ;)

shadow of the horned rat and dark omen were excellent games with some really hard levels. Massive fun

welcome to the forums

cheers
Kurt

:ninja:

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Lupovski
re heroes ... in the case of the wh40k there are already units that can give a considerable boost to fighting troops which i'm sure will be included in the game. For example, psykers(librarians), standard bearers (like brother betor of the dark angels) and chaplains.

We have units in the game called 'Commanders' that are like heroes. They're unique, really powerful, and enhance troops around them in various ways. I thought I mentioned this in the IGN interview, but maybe not.



i agree with you re the tyranids. That would include a race in the game that has close combat as a storng point instead of long range shooting.

Uh, Orks are kinda close combat oriented. Wait a moment! They're REALLY close combat oriented!!!!

[DARKMASTER]

well...not to be whiny but orcs doesnt eat their opponents.....shouldn't the tyranids score on that??

What i mean is that the tyranids are more biological than any of the races. As far as i know they got no hig-tech weaponry and stuff. Similare to ZERG in SC. It would be fun to have them however they will probably be the hardest army to create due to graphics and animations etc. Im perfectly happy with another army (in the expansion however....:) )

[Davion]

Im not so sure that putting in the nids is a great idea. that gives us 3 close combat armys. And you just know your going to hear the endless unfounded claims DoW is "ripping off starcraft".:screwy:

[TS_ahriman]

First off, I'd like to give kudos to Birdy for a well written post.

As for a dev unofficially putting down Tyranids as 'not happening', I'll just shake my head and hope we don't have Tau or Sisters in this game...

[Davion]

Originally posted by TS_ahriman
First off, I'd like to give kudos to Birdy for a well written post.

As for a dev unofficially putting down Tyranids as 'not happening', I'll just shake my head and hope we don't have Tau or Sisters in this game...

Dear God!, anything put the Tau........:bow:

[ionfish]

Thanks for the lowdown Shad. Added to FAQ.

[BirdyNumNum]

yes orks may be close comabt oriented, but you dont get the same effect. the whole idea of swarms of hormagaunts coming at you was the point i was trying to get across. i mean a charging ork is almost laughable, as they are so cute :) tyranids could also have various differences in game play, for instance being able to climb up the walls of buildings or burrowing.... cool stuff like that. also tyranids would have a lot of cool and different units to complement the 'hero, or commander' portion of the game.


We have units in the game called 'Commanders' that are like heroes. They're unique, really powerful, and enhance troops around them in various ways. I thought I mentioned this in the IGN interview, but maybe not.
i'm sorry i haven't yet read the ign interview.

[Tribunal]

First of all, there's nothing wrong with the Tau. The Chiggs have their place in the 40k universe, just like the smurfs, space puppies and chaos yuppies -- on the dinner plate of my Tyranid hordes!!! (insert insane cackling laughter here) But seriously, they have their own special flavor to add to the menu -- err game.

Quick question, do you mind us posting story ideas/thoughts here, or would you prefer us to not do that? I like coming up with different scenerios, but don't want to put one out there if the overall storyarc that might be similar to your own, especially if it did strike too close to home or you were just plain opposed to it.

[Shadione]

Originally posted by TS_ahriman
As for a dev unofficially putting down Tyranids as 'not happening', I'll just shake my head and hope we don't have Tau or Sisters in this game...

I didn't officially or unofficially do anything. It's just that I've got over 5000 points of Orks and I take issue with them being overlooked as a close combat army. :)

[Xenocide]

Wow Shadione, thats a pretty impressive WAAGH!/ Chunk of cash.

And remember da red wunz go fasta.

[Soulblighter]

any chance of taking a few pictures shadi and throwing them up on the net?

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Xenocide
Wow Shadione, thats a pretty impressive WAAGH!/ Chunk of cash.

And remember da red wunz go fasta.

What can I say, I love the little buggers.

[Xenocide]

Yeah I second that soulblighter, in fact maybe all you dev boys could send some pics of your armies. Unless of course your game making skills far outshine your painting skills. :3d:

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Xenocide
Yeah I second that soulblighter, in fact maybe all you dev boys could send some pics of your armies. Unless of course your game making skills far outshine your painting skills. :3d:

We've been working on 'getting permission' to do just that. I believe we'll be able to do so soon. However, I do have a few up on Blackorc:

http://www.blackorc.com/forum/BlackOrc/Gallery_Detail.cfm?id=15415&bographics=1

http://www.blackorc.com/forum/BlackOrc/Gallery_Detail.cfm?id=15446&bographics=1

And my first Iron Warrior, which I'm not completely happy with (I've got better at them since). It wasn't finished (didn't base it or drill out the gun barrel):

http://www.blackorc.com/forum/BlackOrc/Gallery_Detail.cfm?id=15463&bographics=1

[BirdyNumNum]

wow Shadione those miniatures score a 5 out of 5 on the phat scale, well painted! as for my petite sized ork amry, well compared to 5000 POINTS!!!:jaw:, i prefer the fast and darngerous roads of the speed freakz, awwwww yeeaah. i'll try to get a picture up. WAAGH!

[Soulblighter]

holy hell those are badass.

[Richtofen]

Iron warriors? You are going the way of the beard:nana:

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Richtofen
Iron warriors? You are going the way of the beard:nana:

Would you believe I like the fluff? I really liked Graham McNeill's Storm of Iron? Painting metal appealed to me?

Then again, 4 ordnance templates don't suck either. After running at my enemies with axes for years now it was time for me to trade in the jogging shoes for some heavy weaponry. ;)

[Richtofen]

4 basilisks!?!?:naughty:

I played a game against my friends iron warriors, he had a basilisk, a defiler, a daemon prince, 2 dreadnaughts 2 obliterators and 2 squads of 5 marines. I was all O_O

[BirdyNumNum]

sounds like you need a new pair of jogging shoes.

[Richtofen]

Nah, my friend, while bearding the hell out of his iron warriors, I own his arse at warhammer where skill prevails over luck!

If you want something really beard, play daemon hunters, get a culexus assassin and stick him with ur inquisitor and his retinue of 5 psykers. They wont have to take the psychic abomination test because they are unbreakable and the culexus gets a healthy 6 extra shots from the psykers nearby. Thats 8 S5 AP4 shots hitting on 2s.

[BirdyNumNum]

he could be going for style over victory, thats what i did when i made my entirely kroot army. i've won a total of 13 games out of 30 :) i've a bunch of really cool conversions which i'll again try to get a picture of posted.

[Shadione]

Originally posted by Richtofen
4 basilisks!?!?:naughty:

I played a game against my friends iron warriors, he had a basilisk, a defiler, a daemon prince, 2 dreadnaughts 2 obliterators and 2 squads of 5 marines. I was all O_O

That sounds like an easy army to beat. 17 models total, and you can ignore 10 of them. Beardy isn't always best.

And you can't take 4 bassies with an Iron Warrior army, only 1. You can, however, take 1 Bassie, 1 Vindicator, and 2 Defilers, if you're vindictive. I've only played a couple of games, and while I do go heavy on the heavy support, I don't play all ordnance. It may be intimidating, but I find lack of versatility doesn't win you games. I also tend to take an assault element, as I find armies that don't tend to be balanced towards being able to dabble at least a little in both areas tend to be weaker, especially against a variety of opponents.

[Richtofen]

It was 1000pts, I had tau and was my first proper 40k game in like a year and I did have fairly poor rolling. But yeah, I particulary don't like the rules for 40k but love the fluff/history/stories and the models look nice. Just the rules don't seem logical or to make sense to me. I'm a WFB man myself!:p :nod:

Cant get 4 bassies hmm? God damn the world is lucky

[No Surrender]

In my experiance, no army can outnumber the Guard in terms of hvy weapons.

[DemonTalons]

Britney Spears can

[deggy]

Out number Guard? No. Out shoot the Guard? Hell yes! :)

[Richtofen]

The lasguns!

My eyes!

The goggles, they do nothing!

[MetalMilitia]

4 ordenance templates is nothing compared to what you get with armoured company...

[H.B.M.C.]

Originally posted by Richtofen
4 basilisks!?!?:naughty:

I played a game against my friends iron warriors, he had a basilisk, a defiler, a daemon prince, 2 dreadnaughts 2 obliterators and 2 squads of 5 marines. I was all O_O

You're lucky then. Chaos Dreads, when effective, are usually very expensive and it's hard to make their points back.

Personally I like my Iron Warrior army - no Basilisks or Statured Daemon Princes to be seen! :flamer:

And deggy, nothing can outshoot the Guard. Iron Warriors can out-ordnance standard Guard armies (4 Defilers vs 3 Basilisks), but they can't outshoot the Guard.

BYE

[deggy]

Just cause you shoot, doesn't mean you hit! And just cause you hit, doesn't mean you wound, and just cause you wound doesn't mean that the enemy won't make the save.

So because it's fun, let's look at the math, shall we?
Basic Guard vs Basic Marines
25 guardsmen in a platoon for 155pts
- 100 for 620pts (easier math:))
- shoots 100 lasgun shots at 24"
- BS 3, hits half, 50 hits
- St 3 v T4, wounds 1/3, 26 wounds
- AP- v S3+, 2/3 saves, 7 dead (17% of 40)

10 marines in a squad for 150pts
- 40 for 600pts (easier math:))
- shoots 40 bolter shots at 24"
- BS 4, hits 66%, 26 hits
- St 4 v T3, wounds 2/3, 17 wounds
- AP5 v S5+, 0 saves, 17 dead (17% of 100)

Obviously, this is not taking the evil die into account or strategies or cover saves, etc... And yes this is with default weapons, but this kind of idea ripples through all of the options. (GW have made a very balanced game system!!)

So, the Guard don't really outshoot other races. Their power is in their numbers and the diminishing return of the smaller superior forces they face. But with the size come other problems... but that's another story :)

[BirdyNumNum]

:offtopic:

[ionfish]

deggy: while that might give you a very rough idea of possible outcomes, when I used to play 40K I found that just taking an individual dice roll (BS3 meaning half of all shots will hit, for example) to stand for the whole unit can occasionally be misleading.

A proper probabilistic analysis yields quantatively better results; when it came to studying statistics, it clicked immediately, and I got 95% or better in all my statistics modules...

That was my experience: when you play too much 40K, you get really really good at maths.

:bunny:

[deggy]

Yehaw! I dropped my stat's class in favour of pottery back in college :)

[Vijil]

Shadione, I re read the rules for IW (I play a 3500 point army), and you can take either a bassie or a vindie.

Nontheless, I regularly show up with a HB/AutoC Pred, Defiler, Bassie and a 4xlascannon havoc squad. And they shoot at strength ten against vehicles. Normally they are a bit useless after the first two turns, cos the other guy has no vehicles left.

They last though cos I have a 20 marine meat shield out in front.

And you're right on ionfish. Either that or you end up superstitious.

[H.B.M.C.]

Originally posted by deggy
Just cause you shoot, doesn't mean you hit! And just cause you hit, doesn't mean you wound, and just cause you wound doesn't mean that the enemy won't make the save.

They can get more heavy weapons than any other army. Trust me, Guard can outshoot anyone except other Guard armies. Using basic weapons as an example doesn't work that well, nor does switching the Toughness and save of the target around.

Most statistical looks I've seen always use Marines as the base target, as the majority of players play Marines.

And GW haven't created a balanced game. The Tau, Iron Warriors and a few other things here and there (Siren minor power) are proof positive of that.

BYE

[Defunk203]

The lasguns!

My eyes!

The goggles, they do nothing!

LOL

[Soulblighter]

do not bump threads unless you have something of value to add.