Imperial Guard [Archive] - Relicnews Forums

H.B.M.C.

19th Mar 04, 10:39 PM

The only probable races that I can think of being in DoW are:

Necrons, Eldar and Guard.

Necrons - Most likely the "single player cameo" race, as one of the terrain sets is ancient ruins, and 'Crons tend to show up around those things. Could be the kind've badguy you fight during the "training missions".

Eldar - Also just as likely to show up around old ruins, but more likely to be a fully playable race.

Guard - Can fit into either. Guard are always there when Marines are, but I just don't see them being a playable race.

Everyone else (Sisters, GKs, 'Nids, Tau) just don't seem to go with the game. And I really hope it's not Tau...

BYE

MetalMilitia

19th Mar 04, 11:12 PM

Well Necrons arent training mission badguys at all, It would usually end up that there are enough to take over the entire planet and if they are wakened it could lead to very serious and seemingly hopeless situation (that im sure the marines could straighten out with a few loses). Eldar seem like a likely choice as they hate chaos and chaos is in this. As far as guard go I would love to play as them, because a tank heavy army would be just awesome and it would be pretty different. I could easily see them as a single player race though just backing up the marines and/or just getting killed.

Shakrith

20th Mar 04, 2:10 PM

Nononononono not the guard! They are horribly unimaginative, they wouldn't work in an RTS where the unit max stops their mass formations, and in a sci-fi RTS, people want cool things, whereas many tabletop fans are modern wargame enthusiasts, so while it appeals to this market in 40k, it doesn't appeal to much of the RTS market. And also I hate how the guard get so many tanks in 40k, why can't my space marines get armoured companies?

ObsceneName

20th Mar 04, 2:12 PM

Because a normal sqaud of space marines is a armored company?

Uzgah

20th Mar 04, 4:16 PM

I'd say a SMurf companies were more like mechanised companies, not armoured...

No Surrender

20th Mar 04, 6:04 PM

Because the SMurfs think that infantry are better than tanks.

I too am a Guard player and would like to see the Guard in the game.

Xenocide

20th Mar 04, 6:28 PM

Infantry are the queen of the battlefield.

And when those Infantry are heavily armoured and armed genetically enhanced super-soldiers.. well tanks become less important.

The Collector

20th Mar 04, 6:35 PM

Can't go very far in that power armor if you don't have vehicles to ride. SMurfs still need the Rhinos and Land Raiders for that purpose.
SM "tanks" (Land Raider) still important, for the purpose of delivering Terminators to the enemy. Other vehicles which are tank-ish include the Rhino and its variants that carry people or kill things in a specialized way.

Even though most of the fluff is about SM's killing things in vast battlefields, one cannot ignore the necessities of mechanized units. They don't have wings like Sanguinus, and only some of them have jetpacks. Can't walk on foot all the time...

eadipus

20th Mar 04, 6:51 PM

Other vehicles which are tank-ish include the Rhino and its variants that carry people or kill things in a specialized way.

lol, the rhino is an APC and only just (personally think minivan is more accurate)

the guard really should be in it, they are involved in almost every conflict in the 40k universe and are very fun and varied to play with/against

at the very least i hope they exist in a support role, calling in a basilisk bombardment would be very cool, or perhaps using your marines to defend the artillary emplacement

Xenocide

20th Mar 04, 7:02 PM

at the very least i hope they exist in a support role, calling in a basilisk bombardment would be very cool, or perhaps using your marines to defend the artillary emplacement

Bah! The emperor would not want his sons wasted on mere guard duty.

Fable

20th Mar 04, 7:50 PM

Remember, Space Marines are the hammer. They come in and do the initial (devastating) damage to enemy forces and then let the guard finish off the remnants with a prolonged war of attrition which is something they excell at.

Shakrith

20th Mar 04, 10:20 PM

I think Necrons should be a single-player race, due to the problem of their balancing, buildings etc. like the naga from W3 are, and that the Eldar would give a nice unique side for multiplayer. Maybe some guard could be used but not even as full as the necrons, just some platoons of guys who are defending a base and space marines have to come to the rescue.

H.B.M.C.

21st Mar 04, 7:22 AM

Originally posted by Shakrith
And also I hate how the guard get so many tanks in 40k, why can't my space marines get armoured companies?

The Guard can get three "tanks" in any game of 40K. Lots of light tanks (Chimeras), but only 3 actual tanks.

And Marines don't have Armoured Companies because Marines are not a conventional fighting force. They are shock troops. Most of the time they come in via drop-pod or Thunderhawk (or teleportation in the case of Termies). Only once they're into a campaign and can't constantly be redeploying into space do they use massive Thunderhawk Carry-Alls to bring their Rhinos/Preds/Other Vehicles to the planet's surface, and they are used to ferry them around.

Marines don't have mass tank formations because Marines simply don't have the crew for it. Marine Chapters are 1000 Fighting Marines + Extras (HQ, vehicle crews, other odds and ends), and just can't afford to train and stick everyone in a tank.

Besides, as far as 40K goes, Marines don't need any more handouts. They already have more lists than everyone else combined...

BYE

Rabiddog

21st Mar 04, 8:37 AM

Okay I'm sick of hearing people say you should play as the marines coming to the rescue of the Guard all the time, Need I remind you people that the guard does most of the real fighting and has fought entire wars without the aid of the vaunted SMurfs.

And besides that whoever said the marines wouldn't need rescuing by the guard, they are not allpowerful either and they are mainly offensive fighters, when they need a good defense they rely on the guard to help them out.

And Another thing! The guard is like THE ARMY they are the ones who actually sit there and fight the war, Mostly marines just get in kill crush destroy and leave the war to the guard unless they are absolutely required on station to help guard regiments. If the guard were in play they'd probobly just get a modded unit cap that also allows for more tanks so LET THEM IN :).

The Collector

21st Mar 04, 8:42 AM

IG and SM are both totally self-sufficient fighting forces, or complementary, except SM cannot occupy a planet without IG numbers. They can destroy a planet with cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombs and other things, which the IG do not have, lacking the naval units to do so. That being said, the SM is a totally self-sufficient force where the IG is also self-sufficient, but has more pieces that have to come together for it to work. IG forces can do without the SM. They have drop regiments, tank regiments etc.

DarthFelth

21st Mar 04, 9:26 AM

they can do with out each other, and yay know, marines do also come to aid of guard, and its more often this way round than the other, its more likly that anouther chaptor would come to help marines than guard :p

Rykor

21st Mar 04, 9:40 AM

Originally posted by DarthFelth
they can do with out each other, and yay know, marines do also come to aid of guard, and its more often this way round than the other, its more likly that anouther chaptor would come to help marines than guard :p

Marines can't fight a war on their own, they don't have the numbers or the resources :notadd:

Edit: I think of it in terms of the british army. At the top you have the special forces, the SAS, right. Could they, a couple of hundred, fight a war without the hundreds of thousands of "grunts"? Even though they're the best of the best, they still couldn't fight a full scale war on their own. Of course the grunts need their support, but it's more for precision than neccessity.

Maximus Decimus

21st Mar 04, 11:28 AM

i think both of you are right because marines can use their ships in orbit to supress a planet or destroy it like they have done before but usually marines are backed up by the cannon fodder..guard.

Mr Carrot

21st Mar 04, 11:53 AM

Marines can fight a biggish war on their own but it takes a large deployment of several companies which is unlikely (half the time the marines just send a couple of squads, which fluff wise are enough to tip the tide of a battle).

The whole point of drawing up the Codex was to inhibit the marines ability to wage war without the support mechanisms the rest of humanity offered, to prevent another Heresey or at least limit the effects of a mass rebellion.

Diackon

21st Mar 04, 12:05 PM

Marines always help IG just cause IG is first to fight aliens and mostly the only.
Still I wouldnt advise any marine to step in to catachan jungle.. hehe :monkey:

Uzgah

21st Mar 04, 1:08 PM

I wouldn't say Marines always help IG at all. If the IG can handle the situation then, the Administorum declares that no SMurfs are to take part in the cnflict.
However, if the IG are having trouble, ie whole regiments being desimated by the foe. The Supreme Commander has the right to call for reinforcements. This will either be further regiments of Guard ferried by the Imperial Navy (remember no Guard regiments has access to their own ships, again because of the Horus Heresy) and/or Space Marine Chapters are ordered to the conflict to help. Most likely a single company is sent.. 100 Marines plus core personel.

So Marines aren't sent in each and everytime to all conflicts... Hell 1000+ marines in a 1000+ Chapters doesn't really amount to a strike force that can be everywhere in the Galaxy at one time... They would be too far spread out. Hence the IG, stationed across the Imperium, millions upon millons of soldiers that can be everywhere at once.

Only when the IG are getting a severe beating to they typically call for help. If they don't the Commisar's kill the Supreme Commander, promote a new one and lean on him until he does call for help.

The Collector

21st Mar 04, 8:57 PM

The 1,000 limit in a Chapter is one thousand Marines in power armor and dreadnoughts? Does this limit apply to their thralls/servitors/ship crews/vehicle crews/logistics personnel/support staff? I'm guessing no, otherwise the "Ten Companies, Ten Squads of Ten" wouldn't work out too well.

It also means Chapters could conceivably mobilise forces of servitors and whatnot if they needed more numbers.

Mr Carrot

21st Mar 04, 9:44 PM

I think thats how they do it and vehicle crews can be made up of techmarines who dont count in any of the companies either.

Marines are sometimes the first into combat, they have roving patrols of tiny numbers e.g. 5 men or a squad, or they police their own space and have no standing guard regiments in their empires.

No Surrender

21st Mar 04, 11:00 PM

The Marines don't have the numbers to fight a war of attrition. They need the support of the Guard or will be out numbered, flanked and eventually worn down.

Uzgah

22nd Mar 04, 1:33 AM

The 1000 limit on Marine chapters appilies to fighting men. What that actualy means is anybodies guess. Vehicle crew are Marines, plain simple Marines trained in the use of the equipment.
The 10 Companies of 100 men thats the thousand... add in command staff 1 Captain, 1 Apoth, 1 Chaplin, 1 Techmarine per company, 1 Physker
So each company has at least 105 men. Factor in all the vehicle crewmen, 1 per Rhino adds another 11 men to the company.
So we are looking at 116 Marines in the battle companies.
The reserve companies would be a similar number. The Training Company is only around 100 men...

Then factor in more vehicle crewmen, 3 per Landraider, 2 per Razorback, 2 per Whirlwind etc etc

How many of those vehicles are within a chapter? 1st Company typically replaces its Rhino complement with Landraiders...

The 1000 man limit really seems to be.... lacking?

Falcrum

22nd Mar 04, 2:26 AM

A chapter has up to 10 Land Raiders.

And for a chapter's force overview, the Ultramarines are on the back of the SM codex.

Anthonace

22nd Mar 04, 2:36 AM

most of the time a chapter would probably not have all their squads full because of the occasional combat causualties

anyway i believe that SM chapters limit only applies to their infantry units and not their staff crews and other people

on another note again not all SM chapters follow the 'rules' (space wolves)

H.B.M.C.

22nd Mar 04, 4:48 AM

[EDIT]: Damn this faulty board software. This needs to be upgraded to the latest version of Vb. It's much nicer!

BYE

H.B.M.C.

22nd Mar 04, 4:51 AM

Originally posted by Rabiddog
Okay I'm sick of hearing people say you should play as the marines coming to the rescue of the Guard all the time, Need I remind you people that the guard does most of the real fighting and has fought entire wars without the aid of the vaunted SMurfs.

But one of the thing Marines do best is coming to the rescue of certain units, as they're very fast shock-troops so can often break the back of an enemy assault before they have a chance to react.

Marines are used for anything that needs to be done fast. Say, for instance, Orks held a planetary Space Port. Rather than sending in the Guard to attack them, Marines will be dropped in, they'll force the Orks away, and the Guard will follow up.

They rescue the Guard because they're shocktroops, but that's not all they do.

BYE

ionfish

22nd Mar 04, 5:22 AM

H.B.M.C.: with regards to the board... we're working on it. :)

Diackon

22nd Mar 04, 12:59 PM

Ok Marines do have powerful armours, they also do have sophisticated weaponry, they do have great heroes. But it wont help them when they'r hit by a lascannon or plasma gun.. they will die just like the ordinary guardsmen being scorched to the ashes. Guard have one main adavntege... numbers u cant beat'em cause they will came again and again. For every battle with space marines aiding IG there are thounsends where guard have to stand on they'r own. :) IG really dont need SM support especialy armour companies (which cant be fielded by SM), deathworld companies etc.

Imperial marine

22nd Mar 04, 2:26 PM

imperial guard should get in if they do i hope that you can control 3 squads of catachan soldiers against loads of orks for a mighty big WHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG killing

Falcon

22nd Mar 04, 3:10 PM

I hope they add dark eldar :stick: (sorry i just like the stick)

Maximus Decimus

22nd Mar 04, 8:41 PM

The argument about the "war of attrition" is a dead end argument cause full out war like that is not in the space marine job discription.

Another thing for codex marines each company is specialized, for example 10th is scouts, 1st being all veterans, etc. basically companies 2-5 are battle companies, 6-9 reserve companies, 10 scout, and 1st veterans. then there is a seperate section for HQ. according to this chart SM codex there is well over 1000 if you count all the vechiles, ships, and crews. note this is only codex chapters.

davidbowie

22nd Mar 04, 8:58 PM

I think it'll be more PDF than anything,

1. ALiens invade
2. PDF mobilises against them
3. Govenor calls out for help
4. PDF starts getting overwhelmed
5. SPace Marine Crusiser hover over the battlefield
6. Space mainres start dropping
7. War goes towards imperials
8. Guard comes to increase numbers\replace pdf who are by now dead probably\mop up.

It takes a longer time for guard to mobilise than space marines, marines are self-contained armies (inc fleet)

BTW Marines are mechanised, not armoured, armoured would be preds, whirlys, vindis, and squads in land raiders. But they can also be air mobile, parachute\drop pods same thing, infantry, siege, infantry, commando etc.

Diackon

24th Mar 04, 4:53 PM

Anyway any one of u knows if i can use assault teams in new IG army??? Not in Catachans but regurals with Catachan addon..... I really likw those guys demos are really cool to use.. but new codex gives something like assaults teams which are far worse then Catachan assault teams... heh can i field them in the way described in Catachan codex??
What do u think about changes in codex??
:sniper:

Davion

24th Mar 04, 5:18 PM

Diackon

24th Mar 04, 5:29 PM

Davion

24th Mar 04, 5:52 PM

In catachan codex is cleary said that i can field a mix army with some units upgraded to a deathworld vet status and assault teams as an adtional HQ support unit 0-2. I played such army in tournaments but in new codex there is no word about thats impsiible now or possible.

Read the Q@A. You cannot mix anything from the catachan codex with the new codex. You have to only use one or the other.

FluxX

24th Mar 04, 6:05 PM

lol.. I don't play it now... but I remember the line in the Codex that stats (along the lines of) "anything goes if its agreed with by both parties playing".

That means you can have CUSTOM armies! And custom ships. For instance, some people have made Warhammer Titans, to the 40k scale, and used them in a 40k battle! :O

The same goes for some mix-and-match armies, IMO. As I have seen "captured" tanks being used by the other armies :lol:

Wolfma[N]

24th Mar 04, 7:43 PM

lol I see that this topic has gone a bit off track. Go Guard!

The Collector

24th Mar 04, 7:54 PM

Of course, you can't do that stuff in tourneys, but still...

This list was created to incite flames relevant to the topic. :]

Back to topic:

Advantages of:
Marines:
-Organic air and space support
-Terminators
-Powerful "tanks" and emphasis on maneuver.
-Cyclonic torpedoes
-Unit survivability
-Initiative by being able to choose time/place to strike, doing so with tactical dreadnought teleportations, or drop pods with thunderhawks. (Elysians and Storm Troopers can drop-pod, grav chute or use Valkyries, Armored Fists are mobile)
-Rhino chassis is often converted between Rhino, Razorback and Predator: space marines have less logistical requirements by minimizing the amount of tanks and equipment they field. (Chimeras are convertible as well)

Disadvantages of the Space Marines:
-Emphasis on closer quarters (fire support is Guess 48")
-Lack of numbers, force is easily diluted if spread too thin
-Lack of numbers makes it very easy for a commander to over-extend
-Low growth-rate, "each soldier is worth too much"
-For their cost, cannot be wasted on attrition battles, as a regiment of guard is probably cheaper considering how the IG is created: draft and deploy.
-Cannot use space marines for everything because of their cost.

Advantages of the IG
-Numbers
-Armor
-Encompasses every spectrum of desired capability from attrition style, to drop-pod, to armor, to "light infantry"/special forcesish (Storm Troopers). Diverse backgrounds and diverse regiment structures provide a varied force from drop troopers to storm troopers
-Large numbers, can be used to occupy areas
-Diverse troop-types since troops raised as "regiments" from myriad worlds
-Can be destroyed easily if necessary via cyclonic torpedoes
-IG logistics is built around simple, rugged machines of great quantity. Easy to replace/build IG units when destroyed or damaged.

Disadvantages
-IG is neutered, dependent on the Imperial Navy for air support, transport and thus resupply
-IG is a inflexible organization once "on the ground", not as strategically mobile as the space marines.
-IG (usually) is too infantry heavy, and infantry are vulnerable.
-IG's logistical requirements are nightmarish compared to space marines, requiring lots of food, ammunition, fresh bodies and lots of weapons, spare parts, flak jackets (as these are easily destroyed when the easily killed IG die), etc.

Cortanus

25th Mar 04, 3:16 AM

Space Marines may be designed for close quarters, with their fire support having a 48" range. Most people compare it to the long range weapons of other races, but don't consider the following:

-Long range weapons in other armies are few in number (Even Guard can only get 3 Leman Russ/Bassilisks)
-There is generally cover to use on the battlefeild, often negating most long ranges.

These tend to make other armies more close quarter oriented as well. I do see the point that their longest range is 48", but usually this doesn't pose a range problem. So, if you can use terrain to your advantage, lack of range poses little problem. Also, Space Marine armies with alot of armour (and believe me, they can take alot of armour (2 land raiders, plus 3 more heavy support choices, and then razor backs)) are very powerful, despite their lack of ordnance.

Diackon

25th Mar 04, 3:58 AM

Wow but dont foget about Armoured Company :) or artilery company where r only tanks...... :)u can field 6X3=18 tanks as troops :) and more from elites heavy suupport are 9 artilery so heh, no mere marine can stand up against it :)

No Surrender

25th Mar 04, 7:49 AM

As I've said before. No one can out tank that Guard. Plus the Guard have access to small numbers of super heavy tanks like the Bane Blade or Shadow Sword.

Davion

25th Mar 04, 8:00 AM

No Surrender

25th Mar 04, 8:22 AM

that's still a heck of alot more tanks than the Marines could get...

Rabiddog

25th Mar 04, 10:59 AM

Another thing i get a kick out of is the Lasgun vs Boltergun jokes that i read all the time regarding the IG....well I have a list here of questions and comments so:

1. WHAT THE HELL IS A LASGUN? Is it a laser, an energy weapon or a slug thrower that uses a laser as the means of projection because you DO hear about ammo problems and you DO see a magazine on the lasgun such as you would for a high capacity slugthrower weapon.

2. A Bolt gun is simply a machine gun with high explosive shells, sorry but that should probobly be less advanced then what a Laser or any Energy weapon would be and if a Lasgun is an energy weapon it should have the advantage shouldn't it?

3. *comment* Okay even if each single lasgun is less powerful then each single boltergun a single IG regiment fields far more firepower then any single marine chapter could match on the ground (now on a company to company basis the Marines field more firepower but considering there are a lot less marine companies per Chapter then IG companies per regiment this is where it balances to the IG having more firepower) so the weaker guns would still end up being enough to overwhelm the marines.....so why the hell do we hear of a single company of marines destroying an entire traitorious regiment?? it just wouldn't happen!

Now okay for the non numbered comments :) Storm Troopers have Carapace armor and the Kasrkin storm troopers have what looks like a more advanced version therof PLUS these two Storm Trooper units have weaponry that is far more advanced then your average lasgun and SO I just have to ask, the IG can make entire regiments of storm troopers so why the hell do they just force the average poor grunt to carry a lasgun and flak jacket instead of giving them carapace armor and Hellguns that would make them an easy match for the emperor's finest?

Shadione

25th Mar 04, 11:22 AM

1. WHAT THE HELL IS A LASGUN? Is it a laser, an energy weapon or a slug thrower that uses a laser as the means of projection because you DO hear about ammo problems and you DO see a magazine on the lasgun such as you would for a high capacity slugthrower weapon.

Its a low power laser gun, low power that is, compared to other more powerful laser guns. It fires a pencil-thin beam of laser energy. They do use magazines, but their magazines are more like battery packs.

2. A Bolt gun is simply a machine gun with high explosive shells, sorry but that should probobly be less advanced then what a Laser or any Energy weapon would be and if a Lasgun is an energy weapon it should have the advantage shouldn't it?

A boltgun fires mini self-propelled rockets that penetrate armor and explode on impact. A bolt is about the size of your fist, so while they are somewhat 'low-tech' when compared with a lasgun, they get the job done. They are weak compared to more high-powered laser guns like a scatter laser or a Lascannon.

3. *comment* Okay even if each single lasgun is less powerful then each single boltergun a single IG regiment fields far more firepower then any single marine chapter could match on the ground (now on a company to company basis the Marines field more firepower but considering there are a lot less marine companies per Chapter then IG companies per regiment this is where it balances to the IG having more firepower) so the weaker guns would still end up being enough to overwhelm the marines.....so why the hell do we hear of a single company of marines destroying an entire traitorious regiment?? it just wouldn't happen!

I'm not going to get into this discussion again, read the threads. However, I will say: if war in the 41st Millenium was fought like Civil War times where everyone lined up and shot at one another than Space Marines would be outshot, but then 'that' would be stupid of them. :)

Now okay for the non numbered comments :) Storm Troopers have Carapace armor and the Kasrkin storm troopers have what looks like a more advanced version therof PLUS these two Storm Trooper units have weaponry that is far more advanced then your average lasgun and SO I just have to ask, the IG can make entire regiments of storm troopers so why the hell do they just force the average poor grunt to carry a lasgun and flak jacket instead of giving them carapace armor and Hellguns that would make them an easy match for the emperor's finest?

For the same reason that all of the US forces are not made up exclusively of Green Berets or Navy Seals. Why buy something for $10 when you can buy it for $1? Life and lasguns are cheap, high-tech equipment and experience are not.

Imperial marine

25th Mar 04, 2:36 PM

IG depend on numbers and weapons if you placed a heavy weapons squad with somthin like lascannon or heavy bolta they could take down quite alot of tyranids for every chaos space marine you can have 3 infantry

Defunk203

25th Mar 04, 4:28 PM

1. WHAT THE HELL IS A LASGUN? Is it a laser, an energy weapon or a slug thrower that uses a laser as the means of projection because you DO hear about ammo problems and you DO see a magazine on the lasgun such as you would for a high capacity slugthrower weapon.

Hi newbie to the boards here. Gotta say I am hugely excited about this game (that was before I even saw those screenshots :bandit: ). I too really hope the guard are in the game as they are my choice of force (imperial all the way, but with a large IG base with, marines, daemonhunters, and soon witchhunters to support.) Not that I don't like marines, just that every 40k pc game ecept fire warrior has you playing as them (but I suppose in that you do get shoot poor old guardsmen.) Plus as previously stated they are the backbone of imperial might no doubt about it.

On the boltgun thing, Shadione has got it right, while technically primative compared to a laser weapon a boltgun is much more devestating than a lasgun. Bolts are basically mini missiles that once they leave the bolter are self propelled and tend to explode inside armour. Also boltguns fit the "special forces" profile of marines, rugged, dependable, super efficient at killing. It makes sense that they are possibly a slightly lower tech base than a lasgun, although they are in the 40k fluff a lot rarer and more expensive and the whole techno mythos that goes with more advanced weaponary means the imperium isn't just gonna hand them out to your average grunt. Also imperial las weaponary is very primative compared to say eldar laser weapons. Although I often do wonder why many guard units arn't equiped with stubbers (basically slightly more advanced, higher caliber modern day machine guns) as opposed to the more advanced bolters. I would imagine the tech level to make them is about the same (its not like were talking hardcore Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Secrets here, Necromundan sucm gangs make them for themselves.) Any lol enuff rambling from me on why bolters are far better than lasguns, both fluffwise and in game =).

Also on the other point of SM vs IG a large force of marines could easliy destroy a traitor regiment, via shock tatics, suprise, mobility and superior skill. Coupled with the fact guardsmen, much to my shame in many games guardsmen tend to flee in droves at large numbers of casualties over a short perioid (marines specialty), but thats what commisars (god lovem the tolerant fellas they are.)

Another reason for IG in the game ogryans (ripper guns on ork mobs + close combat, nice), ratlings (gotta love snipers, a unit of rough riders crashing into the orks, commisars capping your own officers and of course tanks, tanks ,tanks.

I for one am hoping that once the game is out additonal armies will be released online or in expansions.

Also as in one of the earlier posts shadione, your replies and obvious knowledge and enthusiam for the universe (that and those screenshots) fills me with hope for the release.

Cheers

Defunk203

Davion

25th Mar 04, 4:41 PM

Ya Bolters are like full automatic RPG's......mmmmmmm :sniper:

The Collector

25th Mar 04, 5:03 PM

No, they're no way like a automatic RPG.

They're .75 caliber (19.1mm), so they won't carry much. The shells themselves I have no idea as to their length: the bullet is not thinner then the cartridge like a rifle cartridge, rather the bullet is the same size as the cartridge, like in pistol rounds.

Not knowing the size of the projectiles (and thus propellant), we can't really figure out the Bolter's effective range. For starters, the bolters seem to have short barrels, and storm bolters even more so. I'm not sure if these suckers are realistically accurate at any good range: they remind me of MP5k's in all honesty.

With extremely powerful propellant you could wear out the components (which explains why the fluff mentions excessive maintainence) and have some crazy kick and even worse muzzle-climb. Bolter rounds therefore probably depend on the cartridge itself and its payload, rather then being a regular kinetic-energy projectile.

I imagine them equal to a .50 (12.7mm)...blasts a grape-fruit sized hole into concrete. Probably less against their equivalent of "plascrete"/"rockcrete", or even "ceramite".

Shadione

25th Mar 04, 5:03 PM

Although I often do wonder why many guard units arn't equiped with stubbers (basically slightly more advanced, higher caliber modern day machine guns) as opposed to the more advanced bolters. I would imagine the tech level to make them is about the same (its not like were talking hardcore Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Secrets here, Necromundan sucm gangs make them for themselves.)

As I understand it lasguns are not really any higher 'tech' in the 41st millenium than a gun is now. At that point lasers and guns have been around so long that the denizens of that time period likely don't know which one came first. Lasguns are likely to be more reliable for standard infantry than a stubber. Why? No moving parts in a lasgun.

The Collector

25th Mar 04, 5:22 PM

Lasguns can also recharge in sunlight or heat.

The space marine fluff describes "maintainence rituals" that must be performed...a lot. So the bolters are like M16s which must be maintained routinely. Lasguns are like the AK-47/AK-74s, true "battle rifles" which are fairly reliable and decent against non-armored opponents. To remedy that, they should upgrade all their lasguns to hellguns as soon as humanly possible...

Defunk203

25th Mar 04, 5:35 PM

Good point on the maintance note, yeah lasguns would be more reliable ala the ak47 analogy, where as bolters are more the special forces side of things (it really bothered me that in earlier 40k orks had bolters as standard, seemed unlikey they would have that many boltguns available, still shootaz now are a kinda stubber/boltgun hybrid.) They would have to be low maintance and the lack of moving parts would make sense from a manufacturing viewpoint, most planets can make them and in the millions.

Still I do like to mix up he ig with, shotguns, autoguns and stubbers specially hard vets gives them that "Alien Hicks" feel =)

Defunk203

eadipus

25th Mar 04, 7:29 PM

just give your guard heavy bolters, problem solved :)

also, with most guard squads the lasgun weilding grunts are meat cushions for their friends with plasma, meltaguns and whatnot

The Collector

25th Mar 04, 7:37 PM

Lasguns provide volume of fire against Tyranids. That and they don't kill their users on overload.

Do the IG have crew-served weapons teams, that use something like those hand-moved carts from way back in WW2?

Davion

25th Mar 04, 7:49 PM

Shadione

25th Mar 04, 7:56 PM

[QUOTE=The Collector]No, they're no way like a automatic RPG.QUOTE]

They don't fire "bullets". They fire rockets....... increasing speed once fired...explosive in nautre...... and sorry Bolter's DON'T even have cartridges....... even though its shown in some artwork.

They are very much like rockets....

A bolter is massively powerful.... able to destroy tanks...

They don't fire bullets, but they do have 'cartridges', if by cartridges you mean what the rulebook refers to as magazines. Check page 60 of the core 3rd ed rulebook. It even describes the different kind of magazines they have.

If you're referring to shell casings as cartridges then this is true and false. There are models of bolters that do use cased ammo, but shell casings are not required for bolter ammo.

Davion

25th Mar 04, 8:12 PM

They don't fire bullets, but they do have 'cartridges', if by cartridges you mean what the rulebook refers to as magazines. Check page 60 of the core 3rd ed rulebook. It even describes the different kind of magazines they have.

If you're referring to shell casings as cartridges then this is true and false. There are models of bolters that do use cased ammo, but shell casings are not required for bolter ammo.

Cartridges? now you have me confused, I though Cartridges are a part of a bullet... the metal jacket?.( I'll be the first one no admit I don't know a whole lot about guns)

We know they have different types of ammo, and they use magazines, yes.

Now here is were I think you may be mistaken, I remember reading some were bolters don't use shell casings.

"Certain peices of artwork show them ejecting shell cases, but those are somwething added to the drawing by the artist" or some thing like that.

Dimension

25th Mar 04, 8:25 PM

would IG troops really be able to handle bolters? keep in mind space marines are bigger and stronger than regular troops. the weapon is heavy, has a strong recoil (guessing here), heavy ammunition, and is made for bigger hands. a smaller bolter with smaller ammo ok, but i really don't think an IG guy could just use a weapon designed for someone 1.5 times his size.

ogryns on the other hand could, though.

Maximus Decimus

25th Mar 04, 8:26 PM

I think it all depends on the type of ammo because if you look at the design of a bolt gun/bolter you can see that they are designed to be able to eject casings.

The Collector

25th Mar 04, 8:53 PM

Look in the rulebook. It goes over the workings of a bolter, including a ejection system.

A cartridge is the rear component that contains propellant. Modern cartridges are made of brass or aluminum and are ejected when feeding new rounds. The H&K G11 was caseless, the case was some material that combusted when propellant ignited. But, the rulebooks and fluff show cartridge cases.

Since it has a cartridge case, it is not a "rocket", per se. Rockets do not have cartridges. Rockets means it has a little motor on the end that provides the impulse force, rather then relying on gas expansion.

It could be a two-stage. But then the rounds would have to be longer to have a propellant stage and a rocket stage, and the bullet itself containing a payload.

[Edit: Dictionary.com: any vehicle propelled by a rocket engine 2: a device containing its own propellant and driven by reaction propulsion

Blah. It doesn't matter. Even the rulebook makes no mention of a motor. The diagram of bolter rounds indicates:

"Outer casing, propellant base, main charge, mass reactive detonator cap, depleted deuterium core..." after this point it's just the round itself.

Alright. I will concede the bolt has no cartridges. It has a combustible propellant and casing.

But I see no rocket motor stuff. The rulebook does mention it though. Strangely, the rulebook mentions vehicles being "destroyed" in "explosions" when the standard bolt isn't even explosive at all. Unless the main charge is the explosive component. It's only 19 millimeters wide. It's not a very big explosive charge! The only place where it destroys vehicles is in contradictory fluff. Otherwise space marines wouldn't need lascannons, melta and plasma guns.

The bolter is no rocket. It has a combustible case, for sure, but is not a rocket. It destroys targets by spalling, either the projectile or the armor of the target itself. I fail to see this massive vehicle-destroying thing, except in fluff. It isn't really a vehicle destroying weapon in the game...]

Davion

25th Mar 04, 9:56 PM

I fail to see this massive vehicle-destroying thing, except in fluff. It isn't really a vehicle destroying weapon in the game...]

The fluff is the real "universe", the game is balanced.

[Edit: Dictionary.com: any vehicle propelled by a rocket engine 2: a device containing its own propellant and driven by reaction propulsion...]

The "bolt" increases in speed once it has been fired. It clearly contains a propellant. Its mentioned in several black libary books, and i'll be glad to find you the quotes when I get up in the morning.

The bolter is no rocket. It has a combustible case, for sure, but is not a rocket. It destroys targets by spalling, either the projectile or the armor of the target itself.

The "Bolt"( normal) kills its target by penetrating its armor/skin/flesh and exploding inside the target. I assume you just said the same thing? I have no idea what spalling means. Its mentioned in several books again....i'll be glad to find a few quotes, also mentioned in the BBB.

Alright. I will concede the bolt has no cartridges. It has a combustible propellant and casing..

Fair.

Just remember that fluff overrides the game ( who would play against Space Marines who could kill Leman Russ Battle Tanks with Bolters?).

I may have been wrong about the Idea of the "Rocket". But the bolt increases in speed once it has been shot from the "Bolter" and explodes inside the target once defeating its armor.

In my non-gun understanding it seems alot like a "Rocket" :bricks:

The Collector

25th Mar 04, 10:09 PM

No Surrender

25th Mar 04, 10:19 PM

Davion

25th Mar 04, 10:19 PM

Rocket implies a motor that consumes propellant and has a little jet trail.

Conventional bullets detonate a propellant which discharges gas into a confined space. As the gas expands quickly it pushes the bullet out of the barrel.

"Increases in speed"-even bullets have acceleration when exiting the barrel. Rocket or not is irrelevant.

The Bolter continues to increase speed well past being fired.After leaving the barrel it continues to pick up speed, not sure why its been a long time.

Anyway, my "idea" of a rocket is anything that "increases in speed" after leaving the chamber of the gun and explodes.

So maybe I am a little off with the whole "rocket" idea.

EDIT:Remember there is a difference between "in-game" and "fluff", "fluff" being the true 40k universe.

The Collector

26th Mar 04, 8:12 AM

Combustible cartridges would explain the general absence of bullets. You could note that all the fluff with cartridges is older then the newer fluff (square-heads with spikey hair=older fluff)

I think "rocket" is a bit of hyperbole. All propellant is exhausted and bullet exits as high-pressure gas expansion forces the bullet out.

But the bolter seems to have a short barrel...

ComanderSeagoon

26th Mar 04, 10:04 AM

To add my views to this descussion, what i have read about the bolter is that it uses a conventional charge to get it out of the barrle then it uses a rocket charge to further increase its speed. you then had different kinds of bolt like silenced ones (uses a super gas charge). read about the differnt bolt ammo in the inquisitor rule book.

The Collector

26th Mar 04, 7:10 PM

Then the only problem with Bolters is cost: I forgot that the Sisters of Battle used Bolters almost as much as SM.

"Bolt weapons launch a projectile with a mass-reactive warhead. Each bolt is rocket-propelled and explodes inside the target, causing considerable damage with its dinctive cracking detonation."
-Inquisitor Rulebook

The Bolter diagrams make no show of rocket propulsion. No motor at all. The bolter image in the Inquistor Armory section makes the bolters look...about 30-50mm long. Half is probably propellant/rocket. But I see no mention of a dual-charge section. You would lose considerable space to the single-use propellant charge, and even more to the rocket mechanism and solid fuel sections.

The vehicle destroying mechanism is by penetrating a target and detonating. The detonation will shatter the bullet and the metal armor around the bullet. The bullets momentum will send lots of fragments flying into the target. A fully automatic spray of bullets into a armored car would probably pepper the insides with enough fragments to make it look like a shotgun spree had occured inside. Of course, the results aren't much better in a un-armored target, as the explosive charge will spall the bullet itself.

The bolter round itself is not big enough to do massive damage to its target. It will probably wound a few crew in a hit, but the bolter relies on steady fire to shower vehicle crews with bits of metal. I'm still iffy on where the rocket mechanism goes and how they avoid damaging it when the propellant is ignited.

No Surrender

26th Mar 04, 7:53 PM

I think what the rule book means by bolters being able to destroy vehicles is that if you shoot enough bolter rounds into the back of a rhino or any AV 10 vehicle you'll roll some 6s eventually.

Falcrum

27th Mar 04, 3:54 PM

That's rule-wise, I believe the rulebook is referring to it as a more fluffy perspective. And bolters are underpowered in the game, same with lasguns.

No Surrender

27th Mar 04, 7:33 PM

I don't think Las Guns were designed to be under powered. I think it seems that way because every one parades around with T4 troops with 3+ saves. Las Guns work fine against the Eldar, Tau and to a lesser extent 'Nids.

Elof

27th Mar 04, 7:45 PM

Doesnt rocket propelled jsut mean it has to burn some sort of propelant to acheive speed , theres no need for that to be a actually motor , ie the rockets we know today dont actually have a motor just a way to suplly the fuel to oxygen and ignite it

The old fluff said bolters fired rocket propelled projectiles that ignited as they left the barrel , this was what made the distinctive sound that they always mentioned

The Collector

28th Mar 04, 7:54 AM

The dictionary lists multiple definitions of rocket propelled. That is one of them. In any case, motor would be the mechanism that blends oxygen and propellant and discharges byproduct to give the projectile momentum. The problem with "rockets" over cartridges is that cartridges burn all fuel in initial detonation. It's exit velocity is relatively high and starts slowing down via friction. Rocket-propelled has a low exit velocity and accelerates at a rate depending on the rockets themselves. The bolts don't appear to have stabilizing fins, and the bolter rounds are relatively large with insufficient room for rifling, or even if there is, not enough to spin the round many times.

Dimension

28th Mar 04, 8:55 AM

and maybe thats where reality stops and fiction starts.

Rabiddog

28th Mar 04, 9:19 AM

Okay this is 41 THOUSAND years into our future folks don't you think they could easily make itty bitty tiny mini-rockets? I mean the US army TODAY is working on so called "smart bullets" surely in the tens of thousands of years between now and then they could have easily developed tech so advanced that we just wouldn't understand it even if we tried?

Oh and regarding Lasguns, they are deadly apparently against anything but chaos daemons (even bolters don't much work there from what i hear), space marines in their Adamantium power armor, and chaos SM. Other then that I guess you could consider them kind of like M-16s of today, they don't have say the hitting power of an FN-NAG or a SAW but they are more mass produceable and overall better for the common fighting man. I mean afterall if every US army soldier was equipped with an FN-NAG or a SAW it would be a nightmare both ammo and accuracy wise.

I mean if anyone here has the old IG codex (I have yet to get the new one) there is a picture were it says "221st Cadians Decimate Hive Fleet Behemoth" or something like that, and you see no marines or anything like that.

Though I have another question for any hardcore gamers here....okay here it is. A IG regiment is only 6,000 men at max strength right? Well then howcome we so often hear in fluff about only 2-3 regiments being deployed to capture an entire world? I mean surely there would be millions or even billions of people on a world so how can a force of only about 12-16 thousand take an entire planet?

Same thing for when the IG is deployed to stop say an ORK WAAAAAAGH or an Eldar raid, we see so often that only 2 or 3 regiments are deployed to stop entire armies, maybe I am missing something but how come it seems that armies in the 41st millenium are so small when in all reality it would take a force of hundreds of thousands or even millions of soldiers to take over an ENTIRE planet?

Any info on how the IG uses such small numbers and still emerges victorious would be helpful thanks.

Cortanus

28th Mar 04, 9:46 PM

Okay this is 41 THOUSAND years into our future folks don't you think they could easily make itty bitty tiny mini-rockets? I mean the US army TODAY is working on so called "smart bullets" surely in the tens of thousands of years between now and then they could have easily developed tech so advanced that we just wouldn't understand it even if we tried?

Ah, but don't forget how petrified the Imperium is of technology that don't come from Standard Template Constructors, or at least their blue prints. The Land Raider Crusader, a successful experiment with the highly modifiable Land Raider chassis took over 100 years to be approved by Mars.

Though I have another question for any hardcore gamers here....okay here it is. A IG regiment is only 6,000 men at max strength right? Well then howcome we so often hear in fluff about only 2-3 regiments being deployed to capture an entire world? I mean surely there would be millions or even billions of people on a world so how can a force of only about 12-16 thousand take an entire planet?

Same thing for when the IG is deployed to stop say an ORK WAAAAAAGH or an Eldar raid, we see so often that only 2 or 3 regiments are deployed to stop entire armies, maybe I am missing something but how come it seems that armies in the 41st millenium are so small when in all reality it would take a force of hundreds of thousands or even millions of soldiers to take over an ENTIRE planet?

By hitting the seat of Government early, by taking out key locations early, and controlling the skies and supply lines. Remember, when the Guard is deployed to take back a planet, all they have to do is remove the key leadership of the enemy (Unless they are orks). Chaos, Eldar Pirates (As far as I know), even renegade human forces are usually led by a charismatic leader who leads from the front. Seeing your hero killed will certainly shake the faith of most people. Also, concerning Chaos, mind influence from the leader is usually the cause, so removing the leader will usually disorient the enemy enough to give the Guard an advantage.

Tyranids or Orks and the planet will probably be lost. 'Nids will suck it dry, and orks will colonise it. Tau just need their Ethereal and Combat leaders taken down, and they start shaking.

The Collector

28th Mar 04, 9:57 PM

Considering that the 40K universe is described as archaic where they have little understanding of technology, and rely on people to load those giant torpedoes (see BFG rulebook), I'd say they are behind us in some aspects. They are not the totally advanced people we are to believe.

Edit: The end of Codex: IG they mention a battlegroup of 50 regiments of over a half million people and thirty-thousand tanks: making each regiment roughly 10k troops and 600 tanks/vehicles.

Elof

28th Mar 04, 10:03 PM

Most of the fluff ive read theres been well up of 3 or 4 regiments deployed , ig armies mass in the millions for planet wide activities , and i thought regiment size was 10,000 not 6

Ig recruit several regiments per planet for most armies and crusades can be thousands of units and several SM chapters as well as navy fleets

Cortanus

28th Mar 04, 10:06 PM

Edit: The end of Codex: IG they mention a battlegroup of 50 regiments of over a half million people and thirty-thousand tanks: making each regiment roughly 10k troops and 600 tanks/vehicles.

In First and Only, it stated that Gaunt only managed to slavage roughly 3000 Tanith, enough for one regiment. Does this mean thats enough for one standalone regiment, without integrating it with another? Or did Dan Abnett decide to rewrite the size of a Guard regiment.

The Collector

28th Mar 04, 10:12 PM

The IG fluff used to mention quotas: I believe the figure was ten percent of the PDF. Depending on the size of the PDF, some IG regiments are bigger then others. I'm unsure if the new Codex mentions this as well.

No Surrender

29th Mar 04, 2:06 AM

What you must understand is that the size of a millitary formation is variable. In WWII, a division was between 4,000 and 10,000 troops (I think)

Falcrum

29th Mar 04, 3:20 AM

In 40K, a regiment could be between 1,000 and 10,000 men from what I've seen.

And, No Surrender, lasguns ARE underpowered in the game. From fluff and fiction, lasguns are portrayed as a lot more powerful than they are on the table. But it's for the sake of game balance.

The Collector

29th Mar 04, 6:53 AM

No Surrender: Depends on what army, determines division size.

In WW1 European divisions had three brigades where American ones had four brigades. In WW2 I think it was the same deal. Also, attrition can take a bite out of a unit. In 40k, horribly mauled units are merged together..

Rabiddog

29th Mar 04, 1:05 PM

Uzgah

29th Mar 04, 1:29 PM

Anyone know how many ships it takes to transport a regiment? I mean it must be a rather large ammount considering when a regiment takes lossess the Empire doesn't even attempt to reinforce it's numbers unless it's to simply tack on another regiment?

I ask because an operation of several million Guardsmen assaulting a planet could take hundreds or even thousands of troop ships alone and from some of the fluff I've read the Entire Imperium fleet is only a few thousand ships, Or have i been reading the wrong fluff again hehe?

Good point. I always thought, however, that it was only warships that numbered within the thousands. I seem to remember it being pointed out in the Tau thread, that there are only around 6 battleships in Gothic sector...
However, little ships like troop transports.. I would assume that there would be thousands upon thousands. I could be wrong but thats how I've always imagined it. Limited war ships but near limitless 'small' ships.

ComanderSeagoon

29th Mar 04, 1:46 PM

these ships are huge, acording to someone important somwhere, in epic scale the smallist of ships would be 5 meaters long! battleships are about 5-6 times longer than that so it would only take 3-4 of these ships to transport the whole attackforce.

Rabiddog

29th Mar 04, 2:17 PM

That's pretty huge but battleships don't carry Guard Regiments they are pure warships...But size alone doesn't mean they can carry 6-10,000 additional soldiers on board when some of the large ships have crews number in the 10s of thousands because of the fact that they don't have the necessary tech to run most of the equipment with automation.

Anyone ever wonder why it takes them 2 millenia to build one friggin battleship when they can build cruisers in a matter of years? Anyway I just find that strange.

Uzgah

29th Mar 04, 2:20 PM

Its all to do with the fact that Battleships are carved some Obsidion isn't it? Whereas, crusiers and other sips of the line are just bog-standard plas-steel?

Bear in mind, I never read the fluff for BFG. Never could see a series of ships thatattracted me. However, those Forgeworld Tau look swish. The Citadel ones, well sticks with bubbles on, not my cup of tea.

Kained

30th Mar 04, 3:36 AM

The original Guard Regiment size was based on the size of the vessel carrying it. During the Crusades, each regiment was assigned to one vessel, this would mean that if a vessel was destroyed then there wouldn't be parts of the Regiment scattered across the Fleet. It was a good way of maintaing morale if such a tragedy happened. Typically the regiment was 3000 combat troopers.

In the present a regiment can be from approximately 1000 combat troops (Ciaphas Cain novels) to tens perhaps hundreds of thousands. The regiment is a complete autominous unit raised from one world as Collector points out. The regiment includes all the equipment and support mechanisms it needs to fight on the many worlds of the Imperium.

Its probably better explained in the Guard Codex but you should get the idea.

Gorechild

30th Mar 04, 7:16 AM

I think its just fair/logical to have IG in the game..
They are a popular army and alot of players would liek to control/see thsi army in game..

Bryn

30th Mar 04, 8:36 AM

i really don't think Necrons should be in the game to start with they are just too powerful. for one thing they can come back from the grave if you don't hit them with a weapon like a lascannon so in other words they would be unbeatable.now back to the main question the guard should definitely be in it the are the main fighting force of the imperium basically they start the war off and if they get stuck they call in the space marines fo back up.

Rabiddog

30th Mar 04, 11:26 AM

In the original IG codex it says a regiment varies from 2000-6000 soldiers upon it's founding, most of which would be either tank crews or infantry as maintinance of weapons and vehichles tends to be done by the vehicle crew or the individual trooper so we can assume that most of the 6,000 soldiers in a regiment are combatants and that a minimal number are not.

If a planet is required to raise thousands or millions of soldiers they are raised as seperate regiments Such as during one of the Chaos black crusades (can't remember which right now) where hive worlds like Necromunda were required to raise Hundreds of Millions of soldiers for the Imperial Guard and some Feral worlds and agri worlds were left almost depopulated by the raisings. So if say Necromunda raised hundreds of millions of soldiers they raised thousands of regiments which goes to explain why some regiments have numbers like 222 or 507 or higher.

I found this in the a white dwarf article on a web site that was rather interesting.

Uzgah

30th Mar 04, 3:40 PM

I seem to remember reading somewhere, might have been the old IG:codex or maybe the new one, but a planet founds a new regiment each year, aswell as re-manning those already exist. So the 1st Cadian Rifles was formed in the first year they rasied a regiment. the 347th Cadian Grenadier Guards would therefore have been created 346 years later.

I don't know about ou, but this seems like a huge number of men are required each year. First to raise the new regiment and then to raise manpower for those previous.

The Collector

30th Mar 04, 4:22 PM

Uzgah, in addition, when a regiment is eliminated or it's understrength forces are folded into another, the homeworld that lost the unit will mobilize another regiment with the same name.

For example:

1st Cadian heroically resists Chaos invaders and is annihilated to the last man.

Next year the next regiment assumes the name 1st Cadian.

If the 1st Cadian isn't annihilated in the next year, then the 2nd Cadian is created.
Then the 3rd, then the 4th. Should the 3rd Cadian be annihilated, they "fill in the blanks" and the next regiment is the 3rd.

Dimension

30th Mar 04, 4:26 PM

does that mean the homeworld creates 2 regiments? say the 1st got annihilated, and its the 451st year, does the homeworld create the 451st AND replace the 1st in the same year?

Elof

30th Mar 04, 4:41 PM

They can raise several regiments a year to none depending on whats required , as someone pointed out in the time of crusades regiments are raised from worlds closest to the battle and they can be required to raise several to hundreds of units as well as ones comming in from futher out

as for the fleet i was under the impression the navy was limited per sector to a few fleets but theres hundreds of sectors and transports never came under the control of fleet , it was a planets responsibility just like tanks and heavy weapons and suport for each regiment was

The Collector

30th Mar 04, 8:10 PM

Usually it's one per year standard levies.

When enemies come in, they pull IG regiments from the sector reserve.

Then they mobilize nearby PDF units as Imperial Guard and send them (one light year radius?)

Then they pull troops from (a hundred light years?)

Sphincter

1st Apr 04, 7:55 AM

Imperial Guard is back bone of imperium, how can it not be in the game, jesus taking a leman russ battle tank and demolisher think of the orks faces :wow: it would scare the shit outta me if 30000000 tanks are rolling down a hill as me! :bricks:

Imperial Guard

6th Apr 04, 7:12 AM

Have imperial guard droptroop regiments with Vultures(flying tanks:)) and Valkraies(flying APCs)

The Collector

6th Apr 04, 8:32 PM

Fleets for sectors, battle-fleets for segmentum.

Shakrith

6th Apr 04, 10:45 PM

Valkyries are bombers, the Imperium has lost much of the tech to make sophisticated skimmers. Huh?

H.B.M.C.

7th Apr 04, 5:35 AM

Have imperial guard droptroop regiments with Vultures(flying tanks:)) and Valkraies(flying APCs)

It would sure be fun to have an AirCav army in full 3D. Lot of fun to play!

BYE

ComanderSeagoon

7th Apr 04, 7:44 AM

If they ahve skimmers, i hope the AI uses the pop up ability if you place them in cover.

Uzgah

7th Apr 04, 2:34 PM

aaah the popup attack. It would work against your 10 year old brother, against anyone else "Overwatch!" on the Dev/hvy wep squad.
Of course that was in 2ndED. No overwatch... heh just gotta out flank 'em now.

Elof

7th Apr 04, 5:43 PM

No overwatch ? damm im glad im still playing 2nd edition

Amur_Tiger

7th Apr 04, 7:27 PM

I doubt we'll see IG in DoW because we already have two human-like races(Chaos and Space Marines). I'm betting on eldar because of their big presence in the 40k universe, being on the forces of order(to balance things) and being a very alien race as opposed to the fantasy based orcs. They just cover way more ground appeal wise then IG can.

The Collector

7th Apr 04, 8:36 PM

Vulture/Valkyrie are "skimmers" because they have VTOL engines, sort of like a Harrier. They don't have the anti-grav of the Land Speeder skimmers...but they can fly.

H.B.M.C.

8th Apr 04, 12:55 AM

No overwatch ? damm im glad im still playing 2nd edition

I must be the only person in the world who hated Overwatch. We banned it in our Necromunda campaign, and I'd never use it in 40K. Games just devolved into "I'm on overwatch with everything, your turn", "Then so am I, your turn", "Still on Overwatch with everything, your turn", "Ditto, your turn".

In some ways it made games faster, but in a lot of other ways it brought games to a standstill.

BYE

H.B.M.C.

8th Apr 04, 12:57 AM

Vulture/Valkyrie are "skimmers" because they have VTOL engines, sort of like a Harrier. They don't have the anti-grav of the Land Speeder skimmers...but they can fly.

Well, in the rules, Vuts/Valks are "Flyers", not "Skimmers". They're actually the most heavily armoured skimmers around. AV11/11/10, compared to 10/10/10 of every other flyer in the game. But they need it more than other flyers, as other flyers don't have VToL mode.

BYE

Cortanus

8th Apr 04, 1:28 AM

I must be the only person in the world who hated Overwatch. We banned it in our Necromunda campaign, and I'd never use it in 40K. Games just devolved into "I'm on overwatch with everything, your turn", "Then so am I, your turn", "Still on Overwatch with everything, your turn", "Ditto, your turn".

In some ways it made games faster, but in a lot of other ways it brought games to a standstill.

BYE

Best move ever was removing overwatch.

I'm betting on eldar because of their big presence in the 40k universe, being on the forces of order(to balance things) and being a very alien race as opposed to the fantasy based orcs

Eldar are just as fantasy based as Orks. Space High Elves.

No Surrender

8th Apr 04, 5:25 AM

I doubt we'll see IG in DoW because we already have two human-like races(Chaos and Space Marines).
That's akin to saying that Humans are Monkey like.

The Collector

8th Apr 04, 6:37 AM

The Valkyrie/Vultures had a "VTOL mode" where they moved like Skimmers.

Whiteferret

8th Apr 04, 7:37 AM

Well, in the rules, Vuts/Valks are "Flyers", not "Skimmers". They're actually the most heavily armoured skimmers around. AV11/11/10, compared to 10/10/10 of every other flyer in the game. But they need it more than other flyers, as other flyers don't have VToL mode.

BYE

Actually the Tau Army has the most heavily armored skimmers in the game

Devilfish 12/11/10
Hammerhead 13/12/10

and their flyer is a bit better armed but not armored.

Barracuda 10/10/10 - Ion Cannon, MisslePods twin linked, 2 Burst cannons (fire independently), and up to 4 seeker missiles.

SWPIGWANG

8th Apr 04, 2:38 PM

Cortanus

8th Apr 04, 5:48 PM

no no

Eldar Wave Serpant 12/12/10 + energy field + spirit stones (basically no crew stunned)
Eldar Falcon 12/12/10 + spirit stone + HOLO SAVE OF DOOM :D (now deal with a glance only vehicle with an reroll..... with spirit stones neglecting most of the bad things with them)

Even on a glancing hit, you still have 2 chances of destroying a Falcon, as you can destroy it or immobilise it. Then you have the other effects you can do on a damage roll, like stop it from moving for a turn, shooting for a turn, both, or take off a weapon. Forcing someone to reroll a damage roll doesn't always turn out better.

H.B.M.C.

8th Apr 04, 7:43 PM

Actually the Tau Army has the most heavily armored skimmers in the game

Devilfish 12/11/10
Hammerhead 13/12/10

Sorry, I meant most heavily armoured flyers. And the Tau don't have the most heavily armoured skimmers. The Necrons do - the AV14/14/14 Living Metal Monolith.

BYE

HerrMorden

8th Apr 04, 7:58 PM

Hey HBMC, you know when SB is going to be back up?

H.B.M.C.

8th Apr 04, 8:08 PM

Hey HBMC, you know when SB is going to be back up?

Not a clue man. Kier's having problems with the hard drives the site is stored on. The server's still up, but the website just ain't there.

Anyway, this is completely OT... ;)

BYE

HerrMorden

8th Apr 04, 8:26 PM

Heh, yeah. Have you been to Laird's SB refugee site?

In any case, I hope the Guard at least make a cameo.

Oh yeah, and HMBC. Is it possible for IG tanks to stand up to Tau tanks?

ObsceneName

8th Apr 04, 9:36 PM

tau tanks = ig tanks if you think about it
it all depends who gets the first shot off
front armor of lemen russ 14
but its armed with las cannons i think
and 13 armor on hammerheard but armed with railgun

Noir

8th Apr 04, 10:31 PM

Not a clue man. Kier's having problems with the hard drives the site is stored on. The server's still up, but the website just ain't there.

Anyway, this is completely OT... ;)

BYE

Don't worry,I was wondering about SB as well :D

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 3:09 AM

Oh yeah, and HMBC. Is it possible for IG tanks to stand up to Tau tanks?

Not many armoured vehicles can stand up to the Tau. They have the most consistent anti-tank weapon in the game (the TL-Railgun on a Broadside).

It takes 9 BS4 Railgun shots to kill a Russ (6 hit, 3 cause damage, 1 kills). It's even better with the TL-ones, as they're slightly better than BS4.

A Russ shouldn't have a Lascannon anyway (waste of points, you should be firing your battlecannon), and the Battlecannon isn't a very good anti-vehicle weapon.

BYE

Cortanus

9th Apr 04, 3:44 AM

A Russ shouldn't have a Lascannon anyway (waste of points, you should be firing your battlecannon), and the Battlecannon isn't a very good anti-vehicle weapon.

BYE

No, it's a waste of points giving a Russ sponsons, as you rarely use them. The Lascannon/Heavy Bolter on the front is good for of the tank needs to move, then it can still fire a weapon.

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 5:01 AM

No, it's a waste of points giving a Russ sponsons, as you rarely use them. The Lascannon/Heavy Bolter on the front is good for of the tank needs to move, then it can still fire a weapon.

The Lascannon is a waste of points. Hull HB is there because you have to take a weapon. You should be firing your battlecannon every turn. Any turn you're moving is a turn you're wasting your battlecannon.

Terrain and other things can, and sometimes do get in the way, but I don't know of many people who will waste 15 points on a Lascannon they'll never fire.

BYE

No Surrender

9th Apr 04, 5:50 AM

Unless they get a weapons destroyed result, which is why my russes are kited out with a Hull HB and Sponsoon HBs.

fathapitwat

9th Apr 04, 6:43 AM

I heard that the two other races are Tyranids and Chaos. Just thought I'd mention as you lot hadn't mentioned them.

Tata

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 8:02 AM

Unless they get a weapons destroyed result, which is why my russes are kited out with a Hull HB and Sponsoon HBs.

You're more likely to be unable to fire (results 1-3 on the Glancing Chart) or be dead (result 6) than you are to lose a cannon.

Plus it's WAY more fun to go purley ballistic when you lose your guns on a Russ. Rush headlong into them and tank-shock. It's frightening to see a weaponless AV14 behemoth rushing at you! ;)

BYE

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 8:03 AM

I heard that the two other races are Tyranids and Chaos. Just thought I'd mention as you lot hadn't mentioned them.

We know Chaos are in it - it's been confirmed already. Nothing is known about the other races.

BYE

Uzgah

9th Apr 04, 2:56 PM

no no

Eldar Wave Serpant 12/12/10 + energy field + spirit stones (basically no crew stunned)
Eldar Falcon 12/12/10 + spirit stone + HOLO SAVE OF DOOM (now deal with a glance only vehicle with an reroll..... with spirit stones neglecting most of the bad things with them)

Woah beard alert! Christ when people play like that... thats power gaming. I can't stand power gamers in 40K. Its supposed to be a fun game, not a win at any cost game.

/me moves off grumbling about youngsters growing beards far too long for their ages

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 6:12 PM

Woah beard alert! Christ when people play like that... thats power gaming. I can't stand power gamers in 40K. Its supposed to be a fun game, not a win at any cost game.

That's not powergaming. That's using an effective unit.

Power gaming is going to the brink of cheating (but not actually cheating) to win. You will quibble any rules thing that disadvantages you, and make sure you use rules that give you an advantage. You'll be sure to "forget" to remind your opponent to do things that he's missed (like moving a crucial unit), but chastise your opponent for not remining you. You will be really finnicky with measuring distances, but not your own movements, only his. You won't obtain any enjoyment from not winning, and will complain bitterly when things aren't going well.

THAT is power gaming, not taking a Falcon with good upgrades...

BYE

Rabiddog

9th Apr 04, 7:25 PM

Well my Russ (I only have one for now) has 1 pintel storm bolter, 1 hull mounted either Las cannon I think.....not sure it's just a large cannon, and two sponson mounted HBs.

I figure it like this if my enemy is behind cover or if I have more then 1 Russ I'll roll one forward while the other fires it's battlecannon or if I have 3 :) I'll have two fire and one advance, this way my lascannons and hull mounted HBs will get involved.
The pintel mounted storm bolter is a just in case the enemy gets in close and it's not expensive at all points wise so I'll use it on at least 1.

No Surrender

9th Apr 04, 7:43 PM

40K is about specialization. If you fire at an infantry squad, the Lascannon would be wasted, if you fired at a vehicle the bolters would be useless.

Cortanus

9th Apr 04, 8:01 PM

You're more likely to be unable to fire (results 1-3 on the Glancing Chart) or be dead (result 6) than you are to lose a cannon.

BYE

Not really. On the glancing hits table, you have the same chance of killing the Russ as losing a weapon. Both have a single chance on the chart, and weapon the destroyed is chosen by the opponent. However, on the penetrating hits table, you have more of a chance of killing the Russ, as you have 3 chances. But, as you said, there is a better chance of not being able to fire.

Eisenhorn

9th Apr 04, 8:48 PM

Sorry, I meant most heavily armoured flyers. And the Tau don't have the most heavily armoured skimmers. The Necrons do - the AV14/14/14 Living Metal Monolith.

BYE

The monolith isent a skimmer..... its a big chunk of flying chees (in shape and in rules) with jet engines put under it, no seriusly it might not be cheasy, but those bastards have ruind many great games..... sad that GW accualy releses something so ugly and powerfull, i mean whats next "o i forgot to tell ya, hers my new hungalabungala, he ds even in missions that dont allowed them hes a ws10 s10 t10 w like 10.... and all the other horible special rules u can come up with...will it tace much longer (we have all seen the night bringer and a blood thirster... gulp hopes to god they dont edit the profile caus the new forgevorld model:( ). personaly i dont like the idea of imortal units, so i have chosen to ignore the monolith as a released model, and if i might se one on the field of battle i think its nothing more than a ugly vase or a seriusly fucked up dildo:)

H.B.M.C.

9th Apr 04, 9:08 PM

Guess I'll do this in one post, not that that's more confusing that one post for each person I'm replying too... :umm:

I figure it like this if my enemy is behind cover or if I have more then 1 Russ I'll roll one forward while the other fires it's battlecannon or if I have 3 :) I'll have two fire and one advance, this way my lascannons and hull mounted HBs will get involved.

Putting a Lascannon with Sponson Heavy Bolters is the worst combination you could do. If you fire the Lascannon at a tank, the HBs are wasted. If you fire the HBs at infantry, the Lascannon is wasted. It's the reason Marine commanders never give HB sponsons to a Predator Annihilator. It's a complete waste.

The pintel mounted storm bolter is a just in case the enemy gets in close...

No, the pintle mounted storm bolter is 10 points you could be spending on better more useful items, like another Plasma Gun.

Not really. On the glancing hits table, you have the same chance of killing the Russ as losing a weapon. Both have a single chance on the chart, and weapon the destroyed is chosen by the opponent. However, on the penetrating hits table, you have more of a chance of killing the Russ, as you have 3 chances. But, as you said, there is a better chance of not being able to fire.

I mean the chances of making a Russ be silent. There are 4 out of 6 chances to make a Russ shut up for a turn outside of blowing its main gun off. My point was that you are more likely to not be able to shoot than you are to lose your gun, so having sponsons or not having sponsons isn't going to matter much when you're stunned/shaken.

That and using the Penetration Chart for comparisons is a bad idea, as you always assume the vehicle is Hull Down, as most of the time they are Hull Down/Smoked/Skimmer Moving Fast.

The monolith isent a skimmer..... its a big chunk of flying chees (in shape and in rules) with jet engines put under it, no seriusly it might not be cheasy, but those bastards have ruind many great games..... sad that GW accualy releses something so ugly and powerfull, i mean whats next "o i forgot to tell ya, hers my new hungalabungala, he ds even in missions that dont allowed them hes a ws10 s10 t10 w like 10.... and all the other horible special rules u can come up with...will it tace much longer (we have all seen the night bringer and a blood thirster... gulp hopes to god they dont edit the profile caus the new forgevorld model ). personaly i dont like the idea of imortal units, so i have chosen to ignore the monolith as a released model, and if i might se one on the field of battle i think its nothing more than a ugly vase or a seriusly fucked up dildo

The Monolith isn't cheesy, it's just undercosted by 50-75 points. GW says it is because it's bigger than a Land Raider, and therefore impossible to hide, but that's a bad excuse IMO. The Land Raider is 250 points for the most conflicted and confused tank in the game, paying less than that for a nigh-indestructable, Deep Striking killing machine seems a big crazy. Make it 300+ points, it'd be fine.

And I don't know why you're worried about a Bloodthirster. They're I4, and not all that scary. Nightbringer? Yeah, ok. He's quite scary. He should require permission and a points limit.

BYE

No Surrender

10th Apr 04, 5:26 AM

Erm... The Nightbringer is a special charachter and special charachters always need your opponent's permission to be fielded. Thus, the Nightbringer needs permission to be fielded.

vic 1

10th Apr 04, 6:12 AM

H.B.M.C.

10th Apr 04, 6:57 AM

Erm... The Nightbringer is a special charachter and special charachters always need your opponent's permission to be fielded. Thus, the Nightbringer needs permission to be fielded.

*sigh*

No. He doesn't. The only special characters that require your opponents permission are the ones printed in Codex books before Codex: Tau. Every special character since has been usable without permission (except the revamped Emperor's Champion). That and GW has stated that they want Special Characters to be available all the time without permission as well (but not in official print yet).

Or if you want it straight from the horses mouth:

Q. Do you need permission to field a C’Tan since they are special
characters?

A. Nope, as with the Tyranid and Tau armies, the old constraint on special
character use does not apply to them.

That's from the Necron FAQ at GW's Chapter Approved (http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/Chapter_Approved/chapterapproved.htm) site.

BYE

The Collector

10th Apr 04, 7:57 AM

hi there just geting back to the bolt gun for a second the sound thay make is RAKK-POP-SWOSH-THUD-CRACK( inquisitor trilogy {the 1 from RT times}) .RAKK(a small charge sets the bolt on its way)POP(the bolt ejects from the bolter)SWOSH(the propelent ignites and the bolt is sent on its way )THUD(the bolt impacts target )CRACK(the bolt {hopefuly}explodes whithin target) .in the book it describes the wonderfull cacofany of bolter fire and i think this is prity close to how it wud sound .allso in space wolf a direct quote sayes "the sniper's bolt spead for ragnars hart AMOR PEARCING AND ROKKET PROPELD "

"a small charge sets the bolt on its way"-?

"bolt ejects from bolter"-Aren't bolts caseless? Or you mean they're fired? Usually eject implies a misfire.

"the propelent (sic) ignites and the bolt is sent on its way"-indicates conventional combustible propellants, by no means a rocket. Rocket usually means a little motor. It's a conventional caseless .75-caliber round with combustible propellant. A rocket would add a degree of complexity un-wanted in weapons systems. A rocket mechanism would reduce the room for bullet payload.

FluxX

10th Apr 04, 8:17 AM

In the manuals to WH:40k they clearly show at least 3 types of bullet. Each about the size of a grenade.

Some of these are "rocket" or propelled bullets.

The Collector

10th Apr 04, 8:22 AM

We already discussed the bolter stuff from the rulebooks. The rear of the bullet says "Main Charge", which is either the explosive payload or the combustible propellant. Nothing about a motor...

vic 1

10th Apr 04, 8:33 AM

first off a rocket in not a motor but a simmple thruster it has no working parts ie firework

vic 1

10th Apr 04, 8:49 AM

RAKK-POP-SWOSH-THUD-CRACK [QUOTE]a small charge sets the bolt on it's way[/QUOTE\]
the bolt leaves the gun whith just enought force to exit the bolt gun reducing recoil ( which wud be MASSIVE whith a granade sized projectile to much even for a SM ) :argh:

Random Person

10th Apr 04, 10:33 AM

GO IG!!!!!!! They should be in the game. Why you ask.
Kinda like in halo. There are the Marines(IG) and there are Spatians(SMerfs). 1 Spartian = bout oh maybe 20 rines. But there are only about 30 spartians alive. While there are over 1000000 rines alive. In Halo2 there are only like 10(More like 3 or 4).

And there may be more then 2 unknown races in the game. We only KNOW there are 2. There could be more.

Eisenhorn

10th Apr 04, 2:19 PM

Quote:
"And there may be more then 2 unknown races in the game. We only KNOW there are 2. There could be more."

I doubt it, i think relic has stated, on more than one occasion, that there only will be 5 races in this game and that there only will be 4 playeble.... but we can allways hope:)

Eisenhorn

10th Apr 04, 2:22 PM

Quote:
"The Monolith isn't cheesy, it's just undercosted by 50-75 points. GW says it is because it's bigger than a Land Raider, and therefore impossible to hide, but that's a bad excuse IMO. The Land Raider is 250 points for the most conflicted and confused tank in the game, paying less than that for a nigh-indestructable, Deep Striking killing machine seems a big crazy. Make it 300+ points, it'd be fine."

Preach to that, if the monolith was a 300 pts model i wouldent feel fully that bad about it..... but i still thinks its a bit too much, but as i said before, " i dont like imortal units".....

ObsceneName

10th Apr 04, 2:52 PM

SWPIGWANG

10th Apr 04, 5:30 PM

Heh, yeah. Have you been to Laird's SB refugee site?

In any case, I hope the Guard at least make a cameo.

Oh yeah, and HMBC. Is it possible for IG tanks to stand up to Tau tanks?
Vanquisher....nuff said......

but on the table it is better to just toss infantry lascannons at them...

Eisenhorn

10th Apr 04, 6:50 PM

The only thing about the monolith i dont like is its extremely hard to kill with several armies liek they only have one gun
Tyranids have the VenomCannon glancing only
and Warp Blast but that can kill your hive tyrant instantly if you fail the psi test
Dark Eldar Dark Lance is strength 8 thats their strongest gun
Orks a rokkit launcher they can field those in decent numbers sure but their bs 2

I dont mind the big gun its wielding, many teams have fare worse firepower (IG). what i hate about them is that fielding 2 of thees fkrs in a 1500 army is not even suposed to be cheasy, thats the point tehy are suposed to come in numbers...... teleporting units out of cc bringing reinforsement straight in on the table, thats the realy nasty part in my opinion.... and yea, my friend always field at least 2 of them and they realy are imortal..... its only with my tau´s that i have even had a desent chans lowering one of them, and thats anoying....

H.B.M.C.

10th Apr 04, 6:54 PM

Vanquisher....nuff said......

Nah that wouldn't work either. Against Tau tanks just aren't an issue. They kill them so quickly that it's hardly worth taking any. Tau struggle against All Infantry Guard... then again so do most armies.

and yea, my friend always field at least 2 of them and they realy are imortal.....

Hmm... if he's fielding two of the things at 1500 points he can't have that many Necrons. Shouldn't be too hard to phase him out. Guard at 1500 points should have enough guns to do it. Hell, you could even bring along a couple of Ordos Malleus Inquisitors each with a retinue of Gun Servitors including one Plasma Cannon Servitor. Be sure to include 2 Sages and a Mystic and you have some very cheap firepower units.

BYE

SWPIGWANG

10th Apr 04, 6:57 PM

H.B.M.C.

10th Apr 04, 7:00 PM

true true.....an average ig squad with HB will out shoot firewarriors most of the time using the 36 range and with plasma they can make short work of any suit stupid enough to wonder within range.....screened lascannons should snipe out the big stuff...

Then there's all the sneaky tactics you can use:

Deep Strike a squad of 5 Hardened Vets w/3 Meltas behind their Broadsides!

Deep Strike a Sentinel near their lines and then charge next turn (S3 can't kill it in HTH).

Massed HB and AC fire to clear the Firewarrior screens, then Lascannons to annihilate the suits (Suits hate things S8 and above).

50 Conscripts w/Close Order Drill vs Tau Army in HTH. The Conscripts will win.

BYE

Rabiddog

11th Apr 04, 6:40 AM

"Putting a Lascannon with Sponson Heavy Bolters is the worst combination you could do. If you fire the Lascannon at a tank, the HBs are wasted. If you fire the HBs at infantry, the Lascannon is wasted. It's the reason Marine commanders never give HB sponsons to a Predator Annihilator. It's a complete waste."

Well I don't see it quite that way as if I come accross infanty I can use my HBs but if I come across a vehicle I can use my Lascannon I mean that's the point of having the sponson guns there isn't it? Just in case I happen to run into infantry I could knock em down with my heavy bolters, and if I happen to run into a vehicle I could use my Lascannon (if it is one :))

Though what would you recomend for the sponson hull combo?

And for the heavy firepower I could unload my Battlecannon onto the enemy....mmmm battle cannon.

As for the storm bolter, hmmm okay so from now on I won't put them on my tanks thanks for that peice of advice :) Though at least on this tank it may be usefull if I happen to run into a mass of infantry that are up close and personal.

I still need to get hold of the rule book :) Because so far I only have the old IG codex and a starter pack hehe that's not so good is it now?

Oh and hey what are your guys oppinions on heavy weapons teams?

DO you prefer Heavy Bolters, Auto Cannons, Missile Launchers, or Mortars?

Uzgah

11th Apr 04, 10:44 AM

I'm not sure why but I've always been a fan of the Missle Launcher. Manily because it fills two roles: anti-infantry and anti-tank. However, it is certainly a comprimise. It is not as accomplished at anti-personnel as say a Heavy Bolter and is certainly not as powerful as a Las-Cannon in the anti-armour role.
It is a trade off, one weapon that can comfortably furfil both roles, but is limited in the effectiveness within those roles.
That and I like the model. as most of you can see, I'm an asthetics man heheh.

SWPIGWANG

11th Apr 04, 11:10 AM

HBMC, if you want to use doctrines against the tau, you can basically kill them on deployment....

consider:
doctrines drop troopers, sharpshooters, close order drill, xenofighter tau :D (a joke)
HQ: HSO + standard, 2x Lascannon AT squad sharpshooters
Troop: 3x 5 squad platoon, led by 4xmelta sharpshooting command squad, all squads have HB + flamer
Fast Attack: 2x sentinal (whatever weapon) with improved comms....

more than 180 models for under 1900pts.

I don't see a way tau can counter this when it drops....and it'd still be a hard fight when it doesn't drop.......

When dropping, if scattered close, the tau gets flame and assulted. If scattered a bit futher, at 12' the two sides shooting are almost equal. Kroot has no chance as lasguns kill them, flamers kill them and dump in Close Order Drill the kroot will statistical loose something like half its number (1 shot + 1 assult) before it can hit the guardsman. Suits without cover/screen/Space are largely useless, and with guardman dropping and flanking every LOS blocking terrain and assulting any save granting cover while encircling the whole place means suits will either get shot or get assulted, neither of which the suit can do better than guardsman. Vehicles that survive the quad melta command squad will either have to dodge annoyingly positioned lascannons and heavy bolters to the rear as drop allows lascannons to show up at the most annoying place. In anycase, vehicles probably wouldn't kill its worth in points before everything gets into assult anyway.

SWPIGWANG

11th Apr 04, 11:23 AM

Just in case I happen to run into infantry I could knock em down with my heavy bolters, and if I happen to run into a vehicle I could use my Lascannon
For an average game, you'd see BOTH. If you KNOW that you will not see vehicles, than don't bring it AT ALL or use the autocannon turret or something.

Oh and hey what are your guys oppinions on heavy weapons teams?

DO you prefer Heavy Bolters, Auto Cannons, Missile Launchers, or Mortars?
I like the missile launcher model. Heavy Bolters looks kind of dumb, and autocannons looks boring after seeing armies filled with those things. As for lascannons, in principle I do not and will not like energy weapons unless it has shown me cooler SFX than a dozen mutibeam frigates shooting at scouts and thats only SFX. (uh...this is from homeworld....Kadashi of zealots of doom :D )

I guess thats why I don't have an army....if I ever really started (rather than go to GW to waste time watching ppl play) I'll probably want to convert all my models.

If only eldar has more decent troop choices without those stupid masks. I guess if I start I'll get an all ranger + vehicle eldar army for asthetics reasons. (and throw enough disruption rolls to mess everything up muhahahahaha....look, your whole army is in reserve now)

Soulblighter

11th Apr 04, 6:11 PM

SWPIGWANG next time use the edit button.

H.B.M.C.

11th Apr 04, 6:53 PM

I have specific bits to reply to, so I'm going to do each one-by-one. I honestly don't see why this is considered a problem...

Well I don't see it quite that way as if I come accross infanty I can use my HBs but if I come across a vehicle I can use my Lascannon I mean that's the point of having the sponson guns there isn't it? Just in case I happen to run into infantry I could knock em down with my heavy bolters, and if I happen to run into a vehicle I could use my Lascannon (if it is one :))

Let me give you this example:

You have two Predator Annihilators w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons.
I have one Predator Annihilator w/Lascannon Sponsons and one Predator Destructor w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

Who has more versitility? (Hint: It's not you!)

Thanks the way the shooting rules work in 40K, having weapons that do completely different things (anti-tank, or anti-infantry) in the same unit/on the same vehicle is always a bad idea. Because we can't fire at different targets with different weapons, it is always going to be better to make the weapons on a tank specific.

Mixing weapons will always be a stupid thing to do. It's why good Marine Commanders take identicle weapons in Dev squads, Chaos players take identicle weapons in Havoc units, why Guard players don't mix weapons in support squads/H-Vet Teams/Stormtrooper units.

Mixing weapons does not make the unit versitile, it simply makes it worse at both tasks. Jack of all trades units do not work in 40K. That's not an opinion, that's a cold hard fact of the rules.

Though what would you recomend for the sponson hull combo?

Only heavy bolters, as the Lascannon doesn't fit with them. But I wouldn't take sponsons. The best anti-infantry weapon at your disposal is the Battlecannon, so I'd rather bring more of them than more HBs.

And for the heavy firepower I could unload my Battlecannon onto the enemy....mmmm battle cannon.

Exactly. Kill oodles of infantry with this gun, just not Terminators! That won't work! ;)

Oh and hey what are your guys oppinions on heavy weapons teams?

DO you prefer Heavy Bolters, Auto Cannons, Missile Launchers, or Mortars?

Heavy Bolters & Lascannons.

In the case of Lascannons, it's the cheapest place to buy them.
In the case of Heavy Bolters, they work better in groups of three.

I don't take Missile Launchers because Guard don't need versitile weapons. Our guns are so cheap that we can afford to take lots of them, so we don't need jack-of-all-trades weapons (unlike Marines where a Dev squad w/4 Launchers is fantastic). Guard hit with 50% of their shots, so when I hit I'd rather hit with a very powerful weapon (Lascannon), or have a fair chance of hitting a few times (heavy bolter). Missile Launchers are unreliable unless you have no other heavy weapon in your army but Launchers.

I don't take Autocannons in support squads because they're a fair bit cheaper in Infantry Squads, where they can be paired with Plasma Guns for lots of nice S7 firepower.

BYE

Rabiddog

11th Apr 04, 8:36 PM

Cortanus

11th Apr 04, 11:34 PM

Hey no offense but you keep using the Marine vehicles as an example, a game I watched not long a go had a Guard player and he and a friend of his were going ALL OUT with their vehicles and troops I mean I think they had like 3,000 points each!

Anyway he had 6 Leman Russ Tanks and 3 of the 6 had sponson HBs and a hull mounted gun I can't remember what they were called, and his "tank commander" had a pintel Storm Bolter, anyway he seemed to do well against the other player which is why I went and equipped my tank with the sponson and storm bolter....is it possible that it depends on tactics? But since I know most games would allow a max of 3 tanks is this only viable when your playing a special rules game with your friends?

And as I said I don't have the rulebook so I am not sure of overall tactics and the like I just know what i watched and it looked fun :) and I'm not trying to be argumentative or sound like a know it all I'm honestly curious so any help you guys could give would be great :).

The sponson weapons are useless on a Leman Russ because if you move, you can only fire one weapon (I.E. The front gun or one of the sponsons). If you remain stationary you are better off firing the Battlecannon. However, I heard the new vehicle rules will allow you to fire all weapons (or a highly innaccurate ordnance) if you move up to 6"? This would make the sponsons useful for if you need to move the tank. You could fire 3 heavy bolters...

ionfish

12th Apr 04, 4:49 AM

Since people still don't seem to have got it, here it is again.

Do not abuse the quote feature.

Read the posting guidelines (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=5710). Then read why we have so many rules (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=5701).

So that I can be sure you get the message, I am now locking this thread. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue your discussion of this topic.

We will not hesitate to delete posts that breach forum guidelines. They are there for a reason; if you're not willing to go along with that, then perhaps this forum is not the place for you. If on the other hand you're here to participate in a community discussion and contribute in a positive manner, then just keep a few things in mind (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24). Ultimately, respect and consideration for others should be your guiding principles - the rules are just there to reinforce and solidify those tenets.