Multiplayer Blowout Consolidation Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Vuther

22nd Jul 11, 5:51 PM

Has anyone found or compiled a lsit of the perks and what they do yet?

I've seen: Assualt marine Martyrdom style perk that requires you to have a jetpack with it, an assault marine perk that allows a bolter instead of a bolt pistol for assault marines, read about an assault marine perk to make your charges more powerful, decreased cooldown for jetpack jumps, improved damage from ground pounding with the jetpack, assault marine perk which "improves the effectiveness of interrupt attacks mapped to the Y button", jetpack perk to damage enemies from the exhaust when you blast off, assault marine which restores some health with every sword swing (I think it's only for power swords, power axes and chainswords, seen the name is "(Power) Swordsman's Zeal" and "Axeman's Zeal"), a "Bolt Pistol Magazine" which I didn't see what it did, an assault marine perk to take less ranged damage, devastor perk to carry double ammo, devastor perk to take less hand-to-hand and explosive damage, devastor perk to damage enemies nearby when your armour is broke (so I guess it refers to the shield mechanic on top of your health) a devastor perk that allows you to "see enemies more clearly on the battlefield", plasma pistol perk to increase cooling of the weapon, a perk for thunder hammers and daemon mauls to instantly kill with "a single direct blow", lascannon specific perks to load the weapon faster (I think that means "set down", but the lascannons may be weapons that have to reloaded after every shot) or reduce firing recoil, heavy bolters perk to set up faster or reduce heat buildup devastor perks to stomp faster or increase damage and area of effect, iron halo/chaos icon perk for devastors to greatly increase armour, a perk for artificer armour for devastor to greatly reduce the delay for armour to recharge, tactical marine perk to reduce respawning time, tactical marine perk to improve health regeneration rate, tactical marine perk to increase close-combat damage done, tactical perk to allow allies to respawn on you, tactical perk to increase "effectiveness" of frags, blind grenades and combat stims, tactical marine perk to display enemies' current health and armour, tactical perk increasing bolter accuracy or allowing to rounds to punch through past targets and increase armour damage, tactical perks allowing vengeance launcher to carry additional fusion charges or have more active said charges at one time, a tactical perk allowing you to hold a whole extra weapon, tactical perk increasing equipment carried (frags, blinds and stims again).

Messy, sorry. Saw it on the G4TV Space Marine customization video: http://www.g4tv.com/videos/54234/Warhammer-40K-Space-Marine-Customization-Walkthrough-Video/

Also, according to the stats menu from what I've seen, relic bolters and bolters, and relic chainswords and chainswords are stated to have the same stats, so I guess it's just a visual difference.

Shuma

22nd Jul 11, 6:40 PM

So the power sword is going to be available for MP, but not for the campaign unless youhave the pre-order?

As i understand it, it's the opposite, you can use the Powersword in SP regardless of if you pre-order or not, but you can only use it in MP if you pre-order it. That said, i could be wrong.

Not sure what's with that Chaos Marine, but if you can use melee weapons as the tactical class that's just fine by me.

Misterpeanut288

22nd Jul 11, 7:19 PM

As i understand it, it's the opposite, you can use the Powersword in SP regardless of if you pre-order or not, but you can only use it in MP if you pre-order it. That said, i could be wrong.

Wrong sadly power sword has been specified as MP only however preorder bonuses will be released as DLC sometime after the launch of the game so if you really want the skins than just get one of those instead. Don't forget if you are a console gamer you get your power sword from Kill Team and not through preordering

Shuma

22nd Jul 11, 7:38 PM

Oh so the Power sword isn't in SP at all? Wut?

temprus

22nd Jul 11, 11:46 PM

Sorry, Shuma, no Power Sword for SP. :wtf2: My guess is that it was not different enough from Power Axe for them to make another set of animations/sync kills/etc. for SP. In MP, it has same stats listed as Chainsword but they claim it is somehow better in the interviews. Since no shield damage is listed the way it is for the ranged, maybe power weapons do more shield damage or something.

Chompster

23rd Jul 11, 2:53 AM

My guess is that it was not different enough from Power Axe for them to make another set of animations/sync kills/etc.i couldlnt imagen that being the reason.. just let it use the chainswords animations like they have done with all their games so far. if you ask me it was done just because they were running out of idea for retail specific doohickeys and a chance to cash in on some extra money as DLC later. like they'll probably do with PF and LCs...

Pocktio

23rd Jul 11, 3:42 AM

I'm loving the Tac marine perks, I was expecting lame CoD style perks but they really sound rather wonderful.

Making the tac sound super sexy as a team/support role.

silencer

23rd Jul 11, 9:16 AM

this video explains some things some guys are complaining about, and shows some interesting new gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2TputJH26k

seize ground (REAL) gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_meP4_kXxpw&feature=related

I think the game will end up good, since by adding some other races you get differences like with adding eldar: 2 med health/med attack damage races (SM/CSM) and 1 low health/high damage race (eldar) would debalance the game, and SM/CSM wouldn't be able to pickup ammo from a dead eldar and reversed it would be the same.
as for now we will just see, I think the game will end up good, yes there are just 2 MP races but i think thats enough to make a fun game though there will be less variety there will be more balance. if there was being a race added then let it be orks they can pickup/use bolters you can grab ammo from them they are though, they will bring the same amount of damage. in this way orks would be just the same as SM/CSM though still no new weapons are added more variety is added.
also understand that CLEANSE MODE is co-op.
yes they could add eldar, 'nids and tau into it but it wouldn't fit with the story.
maybe in an expansion, this could be added like when a hive fleet comes past the forgeworld.
but the game itself isn't released yet, adding them now would only bring confrontations between people why they aren't playable in MP or aren't enemies in SP.

eldar and tau would also unbalance the game:
1-both armies do not have jump jets, and I couldn't think about something they have to fly with.
2-both have strong weapons but less health, and both do not have a strong melee.
3-eldar is faster than marines (not sure about tau)
4-most maps are CQC, eldar and tau are more focused on long range
5-they must also be fitted in with the story, HOW is the question.

(you might say I need a psychiatrist)
but 'nids are actually a perfect opportunity with class based MP (except for they not being in SP):
1-a SM/CSM marine is about equal to a warrior.
2-'nids are very versatile: perks would be biomorphs.
3-'nids have loads of weapons and warriors are the most versatile.
4-speed isn't a problem with warriors and SM/CSN marines.
5-jump jets would be wings, as warriors can't fly forever it would also fit, they could also strike down from above like in the vid.
6-melee weapons are rarely not used with warriors, combat knive=scything talon or rending claws, hammer=bonesword/lashwip etc
7-ranged weapons:bolter=devourer, heavy boltter=venom cannon, nade launcher=barbed strangler, stormbolter=spinefists, and there's ofcourse the deathspitter:stalker pattern
8-the zoom-in would be instead of a zoom-in a concentrated view like you could zoom-in with your eyes for an instance.
9-there are LOADS of biomorphs and since the versatile nature of tyranids, new ones could be thought.

for now, I know already someone will be complainging but will you add variety or not?
if I am wrong on any point, like speed correct me.

now I wouldn't have my hopes on 'nids but I think Relic definatly has to think about adding 'nids later, or any other race without deblanceing the game.
If a race would be added I think it would be orks, but I would love to see 'nids and I'm very sure other people do too.

thank you for reading this.

Pocktio

23rd Jul 11, 9:31 AM

Yeah you can apply all those things to tyranids, you're just being selective with your information.

Tau have jump packs, eldar also have anti-grav technology. Both eldar and tau have close combat and ranged potential, especially Eldar. Eldar are not focused on ranged, at all. Striking scorpions, autarchs, warlocks, banshees and loads of other units are close combat specialists, known to be on par with Marines. There's a reason they are considered deadly opponents and ruled the galaxy.....

Tau have tons of melee auxiliaries, throw in fusion, stealth and other short range tech in and you'd have your work cut out for you as a Marine.

TL,DR
Nids make as much sense as any other race.

Also I lol'd at 'Otto Ottosson'

TheV3ng3ance

23rd Jul 11, 9:51 AM

What do custom loadouts do and why were they locked? Can a tactical have a CCW?

silencer

23rd Jul 11, 9:51 AM

Also I lol'd at 'Otto Ottosson'
me too, actually.

SM/CSM marines are just 1 character, it is the same character used for 3 classes.
therefore a nid warrior is 1 character
tau firewarriors do not have stealth(for what I know) or good melee and don't use jump packs(for what I know), which other tau unit, which is a non-vehicle, has all these things?
for eldar, again, which, non-vehiclair unit uses anti-grav packs has a good ranged potential and a good melee potential and is very, versatile, I can't think of any actually.
and again SM/CSM can't pickup eldar ammo but neither can they pickup 'nid ammo.
but I'm not a big fan of the tau or the eldar and espesially eldar are on my list of races I do not know much about but I would still like to see them ingame, I have nothing against them.
and I don't know what "TR,DR" means.

for me 'nids make more sense than any other race exluding orks.
I don't say that 1 character has to be used but for know that is what seems most logic to me.

also for the guy with the deamon hammer in his hand which looks like a tactical marine, I think it's a raptor with a small backback of which the backback is just barely visible in this position.

new vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzShT6V84V8&feature=related

BTW: who think that some of the players in the above vid might me bots like: pastellian/castellan, sounds like a very AI like name

What do custom loadouts do and why were they locked?

custom loadouts are there for you, to make a custom loadout... :D
and they were locked because you have to unlock them by pregressing up (earning levels) I've seen you get one at level 4 for instance.

Carl

23rd Jul 11, 10:44 AM

@Silencer: you need to look up your TT. Assault, Devestator, and Tactical are named after 3 entierly seperate units. Same with the CSm equivelents. They're NOT just 1 guy with 3 diffrent loadouts, their actually diffrent individuals with diffrent specialities within the chapter, (all marines can fill these roles in theory with equipment changes, but in practise the chapter/warband will have individuals fufiling specific roles based on their natural pre-dispositions).

Also please stop posting vids we've allready seen before as if it where new info. It isn't they all went up the day the info was released.

TheV3ng3ance

23rd Jul 11, 10:47 AM

I just think its strange that relic didn't let them edit their custom load out.

silencer

23rd Jul 11, 11:46 AM

all marines can fill these roles in theory with equipment changes, but in practise the chapter/warband will have individuals fufiling specific roles based on their natural pre-dispositions
that's what I meant, though as you may know my english isn't very good.

about the vids: I haven't seen them before, sorry for the double post, I didn't see...

CommissarRezail

23rd Jul 11, 11:51 AM

You do know you can add tau in and have the be balance. tau = tacs kroot = assualt crisis suit = devastor lol there you go tone the damage have fun.

Have Kroot have their jump ability so they can easily scale a building.

Have Crisis suit wield heavy plasma weapons or what ever heavy range weapon you can put on them. Make them walk slow and jump short.

Fire warrior , same thing as tacs be the basic guns of the group.

I'm pretty sure relic could easily find a way. Considering they added ig in dow 2 where everywhere was saying they won't work lool.

temprus

23rd Jul 11, 12:15 PM

Tactical has a melee weapon, the dreaded KNIFE! IIRC, that is their only melee option besides bolt pistol, whereas an Assault Marine can get the option for a Bolter.

Shuma

23rd Jul 11, 12:18 PM

tau firewarriors do not have stealth(for what I know) or good melee and don't use jump packs(for what I know), which other tau unit, which is a non-vehicle, has all these things?

They have a unit called STEALTH SUIT(well, Xv some shit stealth suit), Kroot are the melee units, if you want to get fancitiony O'Shova's taus are probably lunatics with swords, Crysis Suits have jump packs, BUT, artwork has shown Ethereals and i believe even Kroot with jumppacks, but Kroot can probably just jump around without them, i don't know.

for eldar, again, which, non-vehiclair unit uses anti-grav packs has a good ranged potential and a good melee potential and is very, versatile, I can't think of any actually.

Autarch. Since you know, they can use pretty much anything in the eldar arsenal but the exarch specific weapons, or, Warp Spiders, or Shadow Specters, well they wear jetpacks, not jumppacks but you know.

Carl

23rd Jul 11, 12:21 PM

that's what I meant, though as you may know my english isn't very good.

Then i think you completly misunderstood what i just said.

We are not controlling 1 guy with 3 diffrent sets of equipment in MP. It's 3 guys each with thier own gear. A chapter/warband can shove a chainswrod and jumpack on a devestator/Havoc, but said Devestator/Havoc wil not be as good at it becuase he hasn't spent the last number of X Decades/Centuires reciving specelised training and combat expiriance in the Assault/Raptor role, he's just got the basic trainign how how to use the gear. (Incidently Tau use the exact same system for their suit pilot selection).

CommissarRezail

23rd Jul 11, 12:24 PM

Only faction that don't have jump capabilities is probably ig but they can make something unique up for them.

I rather kroot be tau assault :P, he good melee and you can chew the enemy face off when you done kiling him.

Aquila

23rd Jul 11, 1:37 PM

Actually, by the time a Space Marine has been deployed with a Battle Company, he's already been rotated through the Tactical, Assault, and Devastator reserve companies so has extensive experience in all methods and forms of warfare. He can easily serve any battlefield role. So, yes, a Tactical marine can pick up a heavy bolter or chainsword and will know exactly how best to kill his enemies with either.

Chompster

23rd Jul 11, 1:48 PM

Autarch. Since you know, they can use pretty much anything in the eldar arsenal but the exarch specific weapons, or, Warp Spiders, or Shadow Specters, well they wear jetpacks, not jumppacks but you know.cant hes an HQ, other wise SM would need to get the captain since he can have jumppack too and chaos.. i dont know a chosen or some shit?

and really? kroot? well then explain how a kroot is goign to shake off bolter rounds. the tau going to give him a shield drone that flies aroudn him? riiight... and justl ook at how high the assault/raptors can jump, im sure kroot can jump high but thats would just look ridiculous(even for WH40K standarts..) and unlike them he cant charge down out of the sky and come smashing down how would he compensate for that?

CommissarRezail

23rd Jul 11, 2:28 PM

Kroot are strong fast and durable, not only that can jump really high and far. Not to mention people who they eat make them stronger. Besides just make him jump more, off the walls on to the cieling etc, he is agile you know.. Its a number a ways to get him to do the things they need. However just saying. Also they can't slam down on the ground but they can jump on their face :) If that don't work, strap a vespide to his back lol.

Misterpeanut288

23rd Jul 11, 2:53 PM

First of all let me say that discussing racial additions to the game is rather pointless at this stage of the game especially when the would add orks first with all of their SP assests laying around.

With that out said some deviation from the CSM/SM mirror would be necessary just to get a lot of these other races in the game and to try give players other than that that races fans an incentive to continue playing that race. Since we are talking about Tau I will just use them:

*I cobbled this together just this second so I wouldn't really expect these things I am just using it as an example*
Crisis Battlesuit-Instead of the melee getting a jetpack it will go to the Crisis battlesuit however he can not land with a stunning crash and has a longer recharge time like the ASM/Raptor can, but will be able to rain death upon the opposing force before landing.
Kroot-Will have increased speed and will have the ability to utilize that will allow the player to leap at his target knocking them down/stunning them, but will have minimal armor protecting his smaller health pool.
Broadside-Incredibly slow and has a small setup time to use its most powerful weaponry but is unmatched in ranged firepower.

Now I like discussing possible races and how Relic might think of implementing either in this installment of the franchise or the next, but I don't think this really isn't the thread to discuss races.

Carl

23rd Jul 11, 3:05 PM

@Aquilla: Read coprehenshion failure...

/facepalm.

You do realise that basic training is very diffrent from advanced training or actual combat expiriance?

Yes by the time he's elevated to full battle brother and placed in a line company he'll know how to use everythign an Assualt, Devestator, or Tactical marine may be called upon to use. But once deployed he will be assigned to a specific role that best suits his natural aptitudes, and that is the role in which he will gain his actual combat expiriance and focus much of his subsuquent training on. He'll specelise in that role and thus become far beter at it than he is at other area's. That dosen't mean he can't do those area's, but he's not as good as his brethran with a natural apptitude for it, and who have all the extra years of training and actual combat experiance over him in that role.

@Rezail: Trying to shoehorn Kroot in just isn't workable. Even with Ork DNA in their systems their at best equal to a marine in health, but they don;t have the power armour of marines. Even if you gave them some kind of dodge bonus they just wouldn;t be upto it. Sticking to the suits gives you a ready made Marine equivelent durability platform. I figure Stealth suits would stand in for assualt, being a close range shooty ambusher, with Crisis as mid range shooting, and Broadsides as the long range support. Though GW would need to give the Stealth teams and especially Broadsides more weapon fittment options, (taking advantage of some of the current Commander only items might help here). True the crisis suit jetpacks would mix things up a fair bit, but i imagine it could be kept balanced. Eldar have plenty of potentiol too, though finding a third class for them is a bit tough for me ATM. IG i just can't see an easy way though. Even if we go with carpace armoured Gene enhanced Cadian's, your still looking at a lot squishier than marines, and even if allowed to tot around special wepaons on their tactical equivelent, and a good range of heavy weaposn on their heavy equivelent, (not sure what role or model could stand in for assault, (catchan greater barking toad maybe :p), where still not talking somthign able to come close to 1v1 a marine, probably not even 2v2 given the probable health diffrance.

Shuma

23rd Jul 11, 5:06 PM

cant hes an HQ, other wise SM would need to get the captain since he can have jumppack too and chaos.. i dont know a chosen or some shit?

Fine, Swooping Hawks, Shadow Specters, both can fly, jump, or whatever, Warp Spiders can teleport. Besides, would we really need each race to have a mirror class to Space Marines and Chaos Marines? I personally am not arguing for Kroot, or Tau to be on the game for that matter, because, screw the blue men.

And i don't see why we couldn't have an Autarch in the place of an Assault just because he's a HQ unit in the tabletop, because it doesn't make sense to have several of them running around? Well ok, but it doesn't makesense to have 16 marines each from a different chapter running around bashing each other either.

beefprophet

23rd Jul 11, 6:09 PM

I'm just wondering, ARE there actually any differences between Chaos and Imperial Space Marines? I understand that they did this matchup partially to allow a similarity between the two but it would be cool if there were differences i.e. noiseblasters instead of lascannons and corrupted bolters that Space Marines can't pick up or something like that...

Shuma

23rd Jul 11, 6:15 PM

The weapons are different, but i think the differences are only cosmetic.

dd14

23rd Jul 11, 7:17 PM

Yes by the time he's elevated to full battle brother and placed in a line company he'll know how to use everythign an Assualt, Devestator, or Tactical marine may be called upon to use. But once deployed he will be assigned to a specific role that best suits his natural aptitudes, and that is the role in which he will gain his actual combat expiriance and focus much of his subsuquent training on. He'll specelise in that role and thus become far beter at it than he is at other area's. That dosen't mean he can't do those area's, but he's not as good as his brethran with a natural apptitude for it, and who have all the extra years of training and actual combat experiance over him in that role.

Uerm, why the hell does that matter? What you're arguing is so unbelievably inconsequential with regards to ACTUAL GAME-PLAY that it's comical. "It's not the same dude with three different sets of gear! They each have a ROLE IN THE CHAPTER!" "...But they can all use the gear effectively, so what is your point?" "Er, some Marines use it a lot better than others derp!" "And what does that have to do with game-play, or anything with regards to the game for that matter?" "Not a thing! I just wanted to show how much I know about the fluff :D"

Also, if Relic were asked to make the suggestions made by some of you in this thread a reality, Space Marine would take roughly ten years to make. Before anything was even mentioned about multi-player, everyone was just really happy to see a WH40K game with good graphics, a decent story, and a good idea behind it that wasn't an RTS. Now that we've all seen what they did with multi-player, everyone is suddenly upset it's not a battlefield/quake/gearsofwar/all-races-represented slugfest with nine different game modes and balanced game-play. Why don't you let them release the game first before we start complaining about how "X could have easily been in the game"

Shuma

23rd Jul 11, 7:36 PM

Welcome to the Relic community man.

Carl

23rd Jul 11, 9:00 PM

Uerm, why the hell does that matter? What you're arguing is so unbelievably inconsequential with regards to ACTUAL GAME-PLAY that it's comical. "It's not the same dude with three different sets of gear! They each have a ROLE IN THE CHAPTER!" "...But they can all use the gear effectively, so what is your point?" "Er, some Marines use it a lot better than others derp!" "And what does that have to do with game-play, or anything with regards to the game for that matter?" "Not a thing! I just wanted to show how much I know about the fluff

Because somone was claiming that any other race would automaticlly have to have all 3 classes be somthing that could be represented soley by one gu/girl changing equipment. I'm pointing out how, (given that where obviously not dealing with new inducties, (hint serious displayed proficioncy with items, and specific role and weapon traits)), thats not accurrate.

I'm just wondering, ARE there actually any differences between Chaos and Imperial Space Marines?

Cosmetic only, it could be loyalist vs loyalist for all that it matters. Honestly the mirriored factions wouldn't be such a huge deal for me if the Assault and Devestator classes clearly didn't not have the same depth to them as the tactical class, (the range of weapons options, and thus avalible veriaty in kill stratagies alone makes this clear, concerns about the melee mechanics just amplify it furthar for assualts).

whatsleft

23rd Jul 11, 10:43 PM

Why don't you let them release the game first before we start complaining about how "X could have easily been in the game"

because it looks bloody shallow. before we started to complain about "it's not a battlefield/quake/gearsofwar", its already looking like it. mirrored matches, mirrored weapons, highly competitive, high risk high reward gameplay, boredom.

Vuther

23rd Jul 11, 11:51 PM

highly competitive, high risk high reward gameplay, boredom
I can understand your lack of faith for the game (faith is pretty illogical in this case anyway since we haven't actually played the game) but...I don't quite get those two phrases going with your point of "boredom". Maybe high risk, high reward is unpreferable to you on account of it being unnuanced and quite similar to rock, paper scissors, but I'm surprised to see "highly competitive" seemingly lumped as an undesirable trait.

Shuma

23rd Jul 11, 11:58 PM

Does any of those games have you controlling a giant angry motherfucker with a pair of rockets strapped on it's back and a giant electrical hammer on his hands? No?

I rest my case. I understand why people are disappointed though, everyone had high expectations for MP, huge, impossible, expectations. I from the start just expected Marines beating the crap out of Chaos Marines, and that's just what i'm getting, so eh. When Relic inevitably makes 40 sequels to Space marine they're going to be better anyway.

silencer

24th Jul 11, 1:32 AM

First of all let me say that discussing racial additions to the game is rather pointless at this stage of the game
I agree

about the classes, they would have to make 3 different characters and a load of different armours for them too, then they would still have to make a load of weapons, wouldn't it be easier to use 1 guy instead of 3, as they did now?
orks would be most appropriate to put in now.
all those marines can use all of the weapons, some better then other, because of their training, but tactical marines can't pickup a heavy bolter/power hammer in this game.

Chompster

24th Jul 11, 4:22 AM

but tactical marines can't pickup a heavy bolter/power hammer in this game. then i still wonder whats up with the CSM without jumppack and the maul?
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3610/igotsmehahammah.jpg

CommissarRezail

24th Jul 11, 5:51 AM

Well not everyone needs a jet pack to get from a to b. Maybe warp transportation?

ADS

24th Jul 11, 5:58 AM

It's definitely not raptor class because foot of his armor suite is "flat" not bird like. Probably earlier concept or something like that...
Redisign or rebalance, don't bother your self - 44 day till release.

Shuma

24th Jul 11, 10:22 AM

Or maybe Tacticals CAN use melee weapons, they're the "middle" class after all, jack of all trades, master of none.

Pocktio

24th Jul 11, 10:33 AM

I'd love a tactical with a bolter and chainsword. Otherwise it's Assault with bolter and chainsword. Or powersword. Whichever, I just want a bolter.

Vuther

24th Jul 11, 10:35 AM

Or maybe Tacticals CAN use melee weapons, they're the "middle" class after all, jack of all trades, master of none.
Didn't see it in the G4TV Customization vid, Tactical's primary weapons seems to be guns. (roughly 14:23, here: http://www.g4tv.com/videos/54234/Warhammer-40K-Space-Marine-Customization-Walkthrough-Video/). So, I'm guessing they just get a combat knife to pown Devastators they outflank and maybe even Assault Marines, but it obviously won't work for head-to-head against Assaults.

silencer

24th Jul 11, 10:42 AM

there aren't any videos (yet?) showing a class(devestator for example) pickup a other classes weapon(raptor/assault for example), or even being able to pickup a other classes weapon, I've seen that he can pickup weapons but that weapon belonged to the same class.
but for know I have to agree with shuma, though melee weapons aren't shown as tactical marines' weapons (yet).

44 day till release.
so exited :D

TheV3ng3ance

24th Jul 11, 11:52 AM

Clearly Relic isnt spamming enough of some made up word gimmick to get people to buy.

temprus

24th Jul 11, 12:39 PM

Tacticals have a knife (it is used in a few of the videos). Customizer is available at level 4 which you can see in the "Seize Ground Multiplayer Gameplay" on gametrailers. I think I saw reference to Assault and Devastators having to be unlocked too but I forget where.

When you are killed, you have several options:

1) Respawn when allowed, can choose to jump near to any Tactical that has the "Teleport Homer" perk active

2) Change your loadout in the Armory

3) Copy your slayer's loadout, this allows you to even use perks you currently do not have access to

"Classes" are just frameworks for loadout, you are the same Marine with a few presets for appearance.

Shuma

24th Jul 11, 12:43 PM

I believe Bayard said here that they are unlocked in the early levels or something.

Chompster

24th Jul 11, 12:50 PM

3) Copy your slayer's loadout, this allows you to even use perks you currently do not have access tooh right i remember this.. not sure about you guys but this is one of the dumbest things ever.. i really dont like this.
i know it gives new players a chance against better players that have unlocked things they yet havent but i dont feel its deserving.

id be all for this if it was that it would only happend after you die like 5 times in a row, but not as soon as you die.

and if customizer is unlocked at lvl 4 then i guess 2 and 3 are for unlocking the assault and Devastator

Vuther

24th Jul 11, 12:56 PM

oh right i remember this.. not sure about you guys but this is one of the dumbest things ever.. i really dont like this.
i know it gives new players a chance against better players that have unlocked things they yet havent but i dont feel its deserving.

id be all for this if it was that it would only happend after you die like 5 times in a row, but not as soon as you die.
I don't really mind this because I don't see how "doing the exact same thing" is sound tactics. No one counters rock with rock. At best, you'll realize you are personally more skilled than the player you copied if you beat them with the exact same thing, but I don't see what's sensible about fighting their fire with the exact same fire.

Aquila

24th Jul 11, 1:26 PM

@Aquilla: Read coprehenshion failure...

/facepalm.
Stop being obstinate. I didn't fail to comprehend anything. You just don't know the background as well as you think you do. You constantly start arguments about this stuff and you are ALWAYS WRONG.

Actually, I've noticed a trend, 99% of the time, when people start complaining about 'fluff,' it's because they don't have a broad enough exposure to the background and just don't get the concept that virtually everything in the 40k universe has been interpreted several different ways multiple times. There is no such thing as 'canon' in 40k. Just because Relic didn't do something the way you personally would have done it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Shuma

24th Jul 11, 1:40 PM

Actually i believe GW's official stance on the subject is "if it's official and has the GW stamp on it, it's canon" pretty much the same, but you know.

Aquila

24th Jul 11, 2:02 PM

Heh, we have this discussion every time someone brings up CS Goto's books. Without going into too much detail (and I'm sure you're not interested in reading a treatise on the subject anyway), fact is even the 'official' background is full of blatant contradictions, and the novels are even bigger offenders. GW's official stance on the matter has always been - since the Rogue Trader days - that the 40k Universe is vast and open to interpretation, and anything that can happen, probably has happened. They've always used the sandbox concept rather than a strict narrative approach to their background, with a few exceptions.

Point it, anything anyone could possibly be upset about can be explained, IF you are willing to be flexible. If people just want to rage, well, that's their prerogative... they have every right to refuse to buy the game for the most insane reasons imaginable. I just can't imagine getting upset over some of the things people are spewing bile over.

dd14

24th Jul 11, 4:25 PM

...40k universe has been interpreted several different ways multiple times. There is no such thing as 'canon' in 40k. Just because Relic didn't do something the way you personally would have done it doesn't mean it's wrong.

This. Where is the like button?

Vuther

24th Jul 11, 4:27 PM

This. Where is the like button?
Agreed, Aquila bears their Senior Member badge well with that.

Chompster

25th Jul 11, 12:53 AM

I don't really mind this because I don't see how "doing the exact same thing" is sound tactics. No one counters rock with rock. At best, you'll realize you are personally more skilled than the player you copied if you beat them with the exact same thing, but I don't see what's sensible about fighting their fire with the exact same fire.but the thing is the player you copied isnt the only one on that team. now everyone on that team will most likely die more then they would had that player not be able to copy his slayers load out. and it almost makes unlocking stuff useless as you can simply copy someone else who already has anyway. people will still need to unlock stuff for you to copy and use it but its not deserving. if you havent unlocked something you shouldnt be able to use, picking up a single weapon.. ehh alright but not a whole load out.
i guess it would make games last a little longer since one team cant really dominate the other since they could take their loadout and be about as strong if they're good enough and know how to use it but i still just dont like it..

just think about a. someone just started playing SM. hes rank 1 noob of noobs, joins a game and gets killed(DUHH) by a lvl 50 or something that has played for hours to get where he is and has the best and strongest doohickeys. though still a noob that cant play good his chances of survival and threat lvl has now doubled(still low..) since he can simply take that lvl 50 loadout at lvl1..

oh well wont whine about it any longer i dont know the full detail about this feature anyway so im just gonna have to deal with it.

ADS

25th Jul 11, 3:49 AM

First of all, copy loadout will ruin your "unlock" progress, so more copycat (sorry for MW2 termin) more wasted time to unlock perks and pieces of armor. Because frags\wins\or something alse will not writen in your stats coz you dont have access to this type of wargear or perks.
Ok, you win one round by copying enemy with high level character next 10 rounds you will play vs noobs like you with your puny arsenal = you now have immense hunger for attain to this wargear.

About official canon GW and other stuff like that. Without strong grip by GW warhammer universe will fall to heresy and confusion (http://nya.sh/i/fd589129d81f206f34312770fbcf0c4d.jpg).

CommissarRezail

25th Jul 11, 5:38 AM

First of all, copy loadout will ruin your "unlock" progress, so more copycat (sorry for MW2 termin) more wasted time to unlock perks and pieces of armor. Because frags\wins\or something alse will not writen in your stats coz you dont have access to this type of wargear or perks.
Ok, you win one round by copying enemy with high level character next 10 rounds you will play vs noobs like you with your puny arsenal = you now have immense hunger for attain to this wargear.

I have no idea on whats going on in this scenario.....

Pocktio

25th Jul 11, 5:54 AM

Do you have any confirmation of that being the case?!?!

I mean that would actually be a pretty decent way to limit the mechanic.

CommissarRezail

25th Jul 11, 5:57 AM

Dang it how did i not add "no" ... oh well. Well do anyone know if there call in abilities?

Slade_Templar

25th Jul 11, 7:51 AM

True grit for assault marines... so awesome. Bolter is much better than bolt pistol it looks like from the videos, I'm sure that's a high ranked unlock.

I'm sure I'll be switching between tactical and assault, I just hope there is enough community on xbox to support the game, otherwise I'll just get the pc version (to try and run on my bad pc, heh).

ricolikesrice

25th Jul 11, 8:44 AM

just glanced over a preview by play3.de and read " co-op mode wont be in the release version, might make it for later DLC" - can some THQ/relic guy confirm / deny ?

i mean they must be full of it , or ? you are not really going against gears (and the other dozen of AAA titles this fall...) with no co-op, no survival , no nothing but 8v8 on 5 maps & 2 standard modes ?

cobaltlotus

25th Jul 11, 8:48 AM

Eurogamer confirmed that co-op was shipping with release.

SpaceMarineFan

25th Jul 11, 10:24 AM

http://www.gifsoup.com/view1/1118013/m-bison-yes-yes-o.gif

CommissarRezail

25th Jul 11, 10:29 AM

So your saying Bison wrote Eurogamer magazine article in order to confuse the public and thus achievement his means of disrupting the forums? he's Brilliant!!!!

silencer

25th Jul 11, 10:36 AM

no nothing but 8v8 on 5 maps & 2 standard modes ?
There's only 5 maps?

co-op was reconfirmed a while back, don't worry about it, also steam doesn't have things always right.
I wonder why Relic wouldn't ship it with the release after they had cleanse mode confirmed, btw does anyone knows if there's going to be splitscreen for consoles?

SpaceMarineFan

25th Jul 11, 10:37 AM

So your saying Bison wrote Eurogamer magazine article in order to confuse the public and thus achievement his means of disrupting the forums? he's Brilliant!!!!
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Orlando716/Superman/sfgifs2/bisonbamf.gif

Chompster

25th Jul 11, 11:15 AM

ADS

25th Jul 11, 3:30 PM

indeed do you? because i really hope you do.

Its logical:
Crysis 2, COD series, BF:BC2 all have same "copycat" mechanic or pick up not unlocked weapons - "achievements"\frags will not count untill you unlock wargear by yourself.

I don't see any reasons for developers make it other way.

Carl

25th Jul 11, 3:55 PM

@Aquilla: The issue is kind of moot now that silencer has qualified hsi statment better, ( i was under the impreshion he meant thy had to be all one guy for gameplay reasons, not customiser reasons), However my source was an semi-old WD article. I can't give you a precise issue number ATM as they're in deep storage and not really accessibble to me. But it ws one between 4th ed 40K and 5th d 40K releases and went into details of chapter arganisation. I think it was also aroud the same time they did an article on SM recruitment which may have contained a partial repeat of this info, but that might just ahve been how they where ordered when i last re-read them, (i don;t kep them in chronological order :p). It's stated explicitly in that article that marines upon promotion to Battle brother are assigned roles withing the chapter based on where their aptitudes la. Those wh show merit with ehavy weapons go to the devestators, those with a tendancy to get in their enemies faces with a CC weapon go to the assaults, (in simplistic terms, the article was more detailed). As such they inevetiblly gain greater combat experiance and such like in the assigned role. They can certianlly still switch to another role, but they posses littile if any, (depending on their length of service), actual combat experiance in that role.

@ADS: Be that as it may, we've no garuntees. Most games don't give you XP for things other than ouright kills and battle wins. We've allready seen this to be the case in SM, so it's not out of line they could have done it diffrent here. Now i'm ging to ecide weather to rage at the GD thread on sex Ed or stay out of it.

Vuther

25th Jul 11, 4:29 PM

but the thing is the player you copied isnt the only one on that team. now everyone on that team will most likely die more then they would had that player not be able to copy his slayers load out. and it almost makes unlocking stuff useless as you can simply copy someone else who already has anyway. people will still need to unlock stuff for you to copy and use it but its not deserving. if you havent unlocked something you shouldnt be able to use, picking up a single weapon.. ehh alright but not a whole load out.
i guess it would make games last a little longer since one team cant really dominate the other since they could take their loadout and be about as strong if they're good enough and know how to use it but i still just dont like it..

just think about a. someone just started playing SM. hes rank 1 noob of noobs, joins a game and gets killed(DUHH) by a lvl 50 or something that has played for hours to get where he is and has the best and strongest doohickeys. though still a noob that cant play good his chances of survival and threat lvl has now doubled(still low..) since he can simply take that lvl 50 loadout at lvl1..

oh well wont whine about it any longer i dont know the full detail about this feature anyway so im just gonna have to deal with it.
I'd have to say that's a bit more fair though. As much as I like unlocks in my vidja games, I always feel for those lower-level than you (and, you know, yourself when it happens) since they have less options. When starting options are theoretically balanced, that causes the issue of the mechanic being much less addictive and meaningful because, well, you don't need it. Personally, I'd prefer the latter anyway. But, I can see why they did this, and I have no issues with being able to copy kits. No one wants to be more skilled than someone else and be trounced because the odds are just mechanically not in your current favour. This allows the unlock system to feel meaningful while avoiding imbalance through being a lower level to some degree.

I also hope they cut out voice responses inside the videos for multiplayer or didn't implement them yet, because manly quotations were a fun part of Space Marines in Dawn of War 2 that I'd love to be replicated in this game.

"There is only the Emperor! He is our shield and protector!"

"Such are the wages of sin."

"No mercy!"

And so on.

Carach

25th Jul 11, 4:29 PM

apologies if i missed but can someone confirm, please, that MP isnt merely an 8v8 on 5 maps. Please for the love of god say that isnt true.

Steel*Faith

25th Jul 11, 11:08 PM

If SM MP doesn't have things like Chaos Marines laughing like lunatics while gunning down loyalists, or Space Marines yelling things like "No mercy! No Respite!", or, "For the Emperor!" in their inconic helmeted sounded voices, then I don't understand how this could be a Warhammer 40k game made by Relic Entertainment...

Afterall Relic, you guys are the ones I give the credit to for getting me so into the WH40k IP, and really bringing out the character of the universe. The music, voice work, and unit responses were definitely my favorite aspect of the Dawn of War series for me, Relic would have to be insane not to carry this over to Space Marine.

Chompster

26th Jul 11, 12:38 AM

Its logical:
Crysis 2, COD series, BF:BC2 all have same "copycat" mechanic or pick up not unlocked weapons - "achievements"\frags will not count untill you unlock wargear by yourself.

I don't see any reasons for developers make it other way.uhm.. BFBC2 doesnt... when you pick up another kit you continue earning points. not if its a different class, since you will continue earning point for the class you spawned as but you can still get medals and such for that specific class you picked up a weapon for.

only played crysis2 beta and dont play CoD so i wouldnt know. and thinking logical is something you shouldnt hold your breath with when it comes to Relic.. it would have been logical to have Orks in MP too seeing they have the units and animations, would have been logical to have the WH40K iconic Power fist in as a melee weapon since there are only 3 now(4 if you pre-ordered or have killteam) and its very logical to have a blocking mechanism when you have melee in the game. yet i see none of those.

apologies if i missed but can someone confirm, please, that MP isnt merely an 8v8 on 5 maps. Please for the love of god say that isnt true.its going to be 8 vs 8. dont know about maps yet.

Shuma

26th Jul 11, 12:42 AM

Indeed, Relic can't into Logic. Or maybe they don't want to, whatever.

Carach

26th Jul 11, 2:25 AM

its going to be 8 vs 8. dont know about maps yet

well that's really balls.

and i swear, if u guys release less maps than i can count on a single hand even after cutting several off in some kind of tragic cake cutting event, ala medal of honor's last release, and then proceed to offer a couple more in stupidly priced DLC. i will forever despise you and will never purchase another relic game.

<3

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 3:37 AM

. . . what's wrong with 8 versus 8?

only played crysis2 beta and dont play CoD so i wouldnt know. and thinking logical is something you shouldnt hold your breath with when it comes to Relic.. it would have been logical to have Orks in MP too seeing they have the units and animations, would have been logical to have the WH40K iconic Power fist in as a melee weapon since there are only 3 now(4 if you pre-ordered or have killteam) and its very logical to have a blocking mechanism when you have melee in the game. yet i see none of those.I guess you don't follow logic that well Chomp :p Additionally what you're describing are not a lack of logic, but a rationalised decision. Let's explore your examples:

For the melee block example . . . what other games have a melee block? I'm asking genuinely as I'm not that familiar with the FPS/TPS market. As far as I know, Battlefield, CoD, Halo, Counter-Strike . . . none of these had a blocking mechanic. Furthermore, it is perfectly logical to not include a blocking mechanic. It's also perfectly logical to include one. It merely depends what you're aiming for with the style of combat. If you want my personal opinion, a block would merely drag out melee combat and/or render it less lethal. In both cases you're emphasising the efficiency of the Tactical and (especially) the Devastator classes. These ranged classes will have more time to shoot at those in combat, because combat will actually last longer. Assault class users wouldn't be able to get or contribute to kills as easily, thus lowering their actual and perceived effectiveness.

As their perceived effectiveness drops, so will the class' popularity. That, however is mere conjecture and speculation on my part :)

Now, Orks in MP. How would you balance them? How would you measure up their effectiveness compared to Marines and Chaos Marines? How would you introduce a weapon set that is identical for the sake of balance, while adhering to fluff in way that matches the rest of the game's adherence to fluff?

Simply put, it's not as easy as slapping the assets in MP and saying "hey, have fun". You have to consider the overall level of fluff adherence, and then whether you would be able to implement the race in MP while adhering to that level of adherence (as it affects immersion and thus overall game quality). You then have to approach Games Workshop for approval on fluff adherence. Furthermore, you can't assume that the SP assets cover the following amount of required art assets:

Several (there were a good eight or more for the CSM and SM races) sets of armour variants for the Customiser.
Weapons that equate to the range of weaponry available to the SM and CSM races, that the Orks have to mimic. That's what, a good ten weapons or so? Three variant melee weapons, and about seven ranged weapons.

In fact, I'd be surprised if the SP Orks had that amount of variation.

Finally, you have to consider balancing the Orky weapons so that they function in an identical manner to the SM/CSM weaponry (as it's easy to balance, and as a game that is also being developed for consoles, you can't role out balance patches as easily as you can for PC-based games. It's much easier to design "teams" with identical weapon sets). This in itself introduces more fluff problems, so back to interaction with Games Workshop you go.

And that's before you even implement anything solid. A lot of the above is design work, combined with approval to make those designs into a reality.

Ramrod

26th Jul 11, 3:38 AM

Jump pack cam clip with commentary (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/sdcc-11-warhammer-40-000/718002?type=flv). Apparently there's multiple jump pack setpieces, and the spread of them is pretty regular throughout the campaign, and seemingly quite often. This is excellent news for me, Assault Marines are my favourite Marines.

Ra owa

26th Jul 11, 3:47 AM

Yeah, the jump packs do look fun. I just hope that in MP that people are going to select the class that is needed and will help the team the most, rather than just playing their favourite class all the time.

silencer

26th Jul 11, 4:03 AM

Battlefield, CoD, Halo, Counter-Strike . . . none of these had a blocking mechanic
that's because they are focused shooting, not melee.
It would be strange if you saw some soldier walking there, you try to shoot him a headshot and he just puts his knive in front of his head and he blocks your bullet.

but 5 maps would be far too less, there's a whole forgeworld at their hands why would we fight only on 5 locations?

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 4:07 AM

And Space Marine is focused shooting with melee added as a bonus? There are more ranged weapon types than there are melee weapon types. There are two (predominantly) ranged MP classes, compared to a single melee class.

There is still a focus on the ranged aspect of play, however Relic have (once again) shaken things up by emphasising melee, more than other modern games are seemingly doing so. Furthermore, you missed the sentence directly before the one you just quoted:

For the melee block example . . . what other games have a melee block? I'm asking genuinely as I'm not that familiar with the FPS/TPS market.So please don't quote me out of content ;)

EDIT: I didn't mean blocking a ranged attack - I meant blocking the melee/"knife" attack that all modern shooters seem to have. CS has it, CoD has it, BF/BF:BC has it, Halo has it.

silencer

26th Jul 11, 4:18 AM

space marine focuses more on melee than any other shooter at the moment, since it has to be over-the-top.
there are more ranged weapons because there aren't that many different melee weapons in the SM's aresenals.

For the melee block example . . . what other games have a melee block?
I misread, sorry.

Pocktio

26th Jul 11, 4:39 AM

Space Marine armouries have tons of different types of close combat weapons. Just as many as ranged weapons certainly.

Misiok

26th Jul 11, 4:58 AM

or the melee block example . . . what other games have a melee block?

Aliens vs Predator, with parry as a bonus. For the uninformed, what killed the game was not melee, but autoaim that was retarded to have on PC's and somewhat on consoles and laggy synckills that are not doable in Space Marine's MP.

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 5:02 AM

But in AvP, everybody had a (decent) combat weapon. In SM, that's skewed towards the Assault class.

Misiok

26th Jul 11, 5:10 AM

Not really. Aliens and Predators could duke it out in melee but the Marine could only block and parry attacks, which would leave the opponent vulnerable for some quick shooting session. Actually, all 3 races could at least block/parry and defend against melee. In Space Marine the melee does look poor. I mean, most of the games you mentioned earlier are mostly shooters, but in Space Marine we play Marines/Chaos Marines and they should have some form of defense, or at least a parry at the cost of their health but something that adds depth to the game. Other game example - Savage 1/2 had melee in it, with blocks and evades and whatnot, quite sophisticated for a 3rd person team oriented RTS game. There were ranged weapons as well but it certainly didn't make the combat slower. It's obvious that whatever melee Relic chooses, once the combatants get into shooting range of a team it's unavoidable that one of them will die shortly. Adding blocks/parries/depth into it would just make it that more enjoyable to the melee participants. I mean, what's more annoying in any kind of a game online where you die because someone took you from behind (har har) with melee/mashed attacks and no matter how you react you will die anyway?

This said, it will not stop me from buying the game, but it would certainly make me happier.

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 5:34 AM

Sorry, I mostly forget the Marine because it was always a painful experience playing as him (for me) :D

(when in doubt, rocket launcher the ground. YOU WILL NOT MAKE SPORT OF ME, ALIEN)

Anyhow, refer to my previous post where I outlined the problem behind being able to block or parry melee attacks.

Slade_Templar

26th Jul 11, 7:30 AM

Why are the demo players always so bad, lol.

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 7:41 AM

Ruined said he had to get a PR guy to fill in for him, hence we got to see some guy who hasn't spent a lot of time playing the game, playing the game :)

Chompster

26th Jul 11, 7:46 AM

what other games have a melee block? I'm asking genuinely as I'm not that familiar with the FPS/TPS market. As far as I know, Battlefield, CoD, Halo, Counter-Strike . . . none of these had a blocking mechanic.well like some already said most of those games dont focus on melee, SM doesnt either but A LOT more then any of those do. and Halo 3 did have a blocking/parry whateverthingymagig.
i dont play a lot of TPS either but the ones i do know are Darksiders and Grand Theft Auto IV, not sure but i think that batman game arkum blah blah does too. most TPS games with melee do have a way of blocking.

you can always count on Gorb to bring his "IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG" walls of text.. nahh im kidding you make a great point as always.

not about the blocking though still think it should have been in :p

Slade_Templar

26th Jul 11, 8:04 AM

The only blocking in halo3 was when you both had energy-swords, and then it wasn't really blocking, just clashing when you both tried to attack each other at the same time. Added a bit of depth to it though, although it was very rare two people with power-swords would face off other than in a special game mode.

temprus

26th Jul 11, 8:45 AM

Sadly, the fill-in got lots of info "wrong" as he was trying to remember too many names for things off the top of his head (note, this is in regards to the shorter Jump Pack video from yesterday). The "best" part was when he called the bolter a "heavy" bolter". :nervous:

dd14

26th Jul 11, 1:40 PM

There are two (predominantly) ranged MP classes, compared to a single melee class.

The Tactical Marine can use a combat knife in melee, but I'm not sure the Devastator has a melee. So technically you have one full on melee class, a class capable of both, and then a full on ranged class. Obviously the Tac Marine looks to be much more efficient with ranged weapons, but that isn't the point. And how is the fact that there are more ranged weapons than melee weapons in the game relevant? There are more ranged than melee weapons in WH40k Universe period, but that doesn't mean melee is any less significant to the franchise.

what other games have a melee block? I'm asking genuinely as I'm not that familiar with the FPS/TPS market. As far as I know, Battlefield, CoD, Halo, Counter-Strike . . . none of these had a blocking mechanic.

Those are all First Person Shooters with almost no melee elements beyond quick-knifing with Halo being the only exception of the four you listed. That's like asking "What other RTS has unit customization? As far as I know, CnC4, SC2, CoH, and Dawn of War...none of these had unit customization." Space Marine is a 3rd person action game that "focuses on a hybrid shooting and melee combat model", and they have decided to make melee a big part of the game. As for Halo, it did have a "block mechanic" in the parry system. If you and your opponent attacked at roughly the same time, you would parry, or take no damage and reset. Interestingly enough, this worked (in the most recent) with melee weapons vs ranged weapons. If someone lunged at you with an energy sword and you had a ranged weapon, tapping B (melee) at the same time they were swinging at you would parry the attack. You lost shields, but you were at least given the chance to fire back (this was extremely effective if you had a shotgun).

But more importantly, who gives a shit what previous games had in the way of mechanics anyway? Before Battlefield no FPS mixed infantry combat with vehicles, it was either one or the other. Before Halo, no FPS really did regenerative shields, it was all med-packs. It's also fair to say Call of Duty was the first to try the idea of Perks, and look how that worked out. Why limit yourself to what your predecessor did? That doesn't get you anywhere.

Noun

26th Jul 11, 1:53 PM

The Tactical Marine can use a combat knife in melee, but I'm not sure the Devastator has a melee.

The Devastator is capable of melee combat.

Vuther

26th Jul 11, 2:08 PM

There is one thing I am really :-( about the game so far...no Flamers! I suppose Melta guns will suffice, but it's just not the same as roiling streams of fire! They probably felt making such a weapon perform in reasonably logical manner would be too easy-mode for the game, since it'd be "aim a bit ahead within a certain range away from you, hold fire (pun intended) button".

The Devastator is capable of melee combat.
Just...poorly.

Gorb

26th Jul 11, 2:12 PM

@dd14: you are the second or third person to have picked on a singular part of one of my statements, while yet managing to miss the point(s) contained within the larger (remaining) portion of the post.

I have already outlined the inherent problems with a "block" mechanic in Space Marine, thus rendering all "what if" scenarios somewhat lacking unless you first address the points I have made against the inclusion of a melee block system, in the context of Space Marine.

Additionally, there are arguably more melee weapons than ranged weapons in the 40k universe. Not that I'm going to get into a pissing match about who can recite the most :p

Vuther

26th Jul 11, 3:14 PM

Additionally, there are arguably more melee weapons than ranged weapons in the 40k universe. Not that I'm going to get into a pissing match about who can recite the most :p
To Lexicanum!

Shuma

26th Jul 11, 3:24 PM

Honestly, while in paper a block move sounds good, in practice, i don't think it would. I'm sure anyone who played AvP can vouch for how annoying it was to be fighting some alien/predator in melee only to have another Predator shoot you two into bits and pieces from a dark corner of the room with his plasma caster.

God damn Predators. Now, if the game had a better melee system to begin with and more weapons, ie if it was more focused on melee combat, then i'd also be wishing for a block button, but right now from what i understand melee combat boils down to "press 2 buttons to swing weapon wildly"

SPEZZMAREN

26th Jul 11, 4:13 PM

I would rather have fun, than be super-competetive. If that means playing the class I want, to the best of my abilities, so be it.

Pocktio

27th Jul 11, 2:02 AM

I don't think anyone can ever use AVP as a pro-feature argument. Did you actually play that game? It was awful. For the love of the Emperor do not try copying anything from it.

Carach

27th Jul 11, 4:50 AM

. . . what's wrong with 8 versus 8?

nothing in itself, but when that's all there is...its a bit limited. underpopulated.

u could make a good UT, TF style MP with this game (i mean oldschool UT)... hell u could do anything, but we get just an 8v8 with 2 or 3 MP modes at most? :/

dont wish to jump the gun or anything, im just a little let down by the apparent lack of MP content. and if i am to be told its all to come in DLC im going to go insane. Map pack DLC (aka, have one or 2 more maps for a fiver), a long with all the other stupid little superficial dlc things like skins that MODS used to do before they got closed down, are IMMENSELY annoying to me.

DLC is in theory good. but the way it is deployed by the vast majority of the industry is nothing less than daylight robbery, and everyone just accepts it. I dont pay the 40+ quid that games cost these days for half a game, then pay extra 5s and 10s for things that should have been included in the original game in the first place.

In the case of MOH, it was released with only half a dozen maps and 2? modes in MP. within a month of release they were selling map pack dlc for almost a tenner. blatantly finished products not included in the original game so more money could be sucked out of the customer-base. I find that absolutely disgusting, though something not usually, until recently perhaps, associated with Relic.

Shuma

27th Jul 11, 4:57 AM

The modding community is deaaaaaaaaaaaaaad~

Here's to hoping someone finds out how to mod Spezz Mahreen.

Gorb

27th Jul 11, 5:05 AM

@ Carach: how decent was MoH's SP mode? How many hours of enjoyment did you get out of it? It seems to me like Space Marine's marketing has been heavily-focused on the SP portion of the game (at least up until recently). If SP is indeed the majority of the game, with MP as a decently-sized afterthought . . . why complain about getting extra MP content down the road, when Relic can afford to spend time working on it?

@ Shuma: that's because games are much more complex to modify these days. Also, I think that the popularity of 40k is waning slightly, due to moves by Games Workshop and the sheer pricing of the hobby these days.

Steel*Faith

27th Jul 11, 10:09 AM

I don't think anyone can ever use AVP as a pro-feature argument. Did you actually play that game? It was awful. For the love of the Emperor do not try copying anything from it.

I hope you're not talking about the original AvP, because that was one of the best MP games of all time. Even the new one is quite good, but unfortunately people didn't give it a chance. The main feature that ruined it's MP was the execution attacks and people thought it was cheap - but most people didn't realize there was a way to counter those attacks. Overall though, AvP is one of the more entertainig and unique MP games there is.

There's no good excuse not to have a basic block feature in a game where melee is a predominant part of the MP and SP.

Shuma

27th Jul 11, 6:28 PM

There's no good excuse not to have a basic block feature in a game where melee is a predominant part of the MP and SP.

I agree, thank god it isn't in this game, i mean otherwise Relic would've gone full retard(not that they haven't done so in the past... In my opinion).

@Gorb:

I hope so, by that i mean i hope it's just that, Relic never released modding tools for DoW II, why they did it is beyond us, we can only speculate, at least now we don't need them anymore thanks to Santos, Cope and Promythyus, but my fear is that now that Relic has gotten the good taste of DLC, not only will they not help the modding community, or encourage modding, but try to stop the community from modding the game, i hope i'm wrong and it's just irrational fear.

Steel*Faith

29th Jul 11, 5:47 PM

So having some form of blocking in a melee game is "full retard"? Right.....makes sense.

Anyhow, when are we getting more info on Cleanse Mode? I think out of all the features of the game, Cleanse mode is my most anticipated. I'm really hoping it's going to be a last stand against hordes of Daemons, Heretics, Traitors, and Xenos - oh I hope so! Although, unlike all other survival modes I've played recently, I hope there's a way to actually win or have some kind of random bosses and challenges. Purely surviving as long as possible can get kinda dull over time, and I'd much rather have a small glimmer of hope for victory to get me through the waves.

Shuma

29th Jul 11, 6:05 PM

You have zero reading comprehension, i said "If" this was a game where melee is predominant it would be full retard of Relic to not include a block button, however, this game is not centered around melee and melee is not predominant in MP, just from watching the videos of random people playing the game you get that, because each time a raptor or assault marine started fighting another a Devastator or Tactical came around and blasted both of them into little pieces, just like in AvP with the Predator and Aliens, which is why most people tried to avoid fighting in melee in that game and was more of a "oh shit" last resort thing you did.

In fact, the fact that this game gives you the ability to roll around and not block is better, because the thing you do not want, is to sit still in one place bashing buttons against some other fag while a devastator shoots a plasma bolt up your ass, now, IF this game was centered around melee combat, and it was ranged combat that was the side bonus, then it would be pretty fucking stupid to not have a block button, since everyone would be bashing each other in melee all the time, but it's not like that, the game is more centered on ranged combat than on melee combat.

Gorb

29th Jul 11, 6:06 PM

Shuma, they've explained numerous times why releasing modding tools isn't as simple as saying HEY GUYS HERE YOU GO. If you want, I can do my best to try to explain in PM :)

@ Steel*Faith: that was Shuma's opinion. He's entitled to it, no?

EDIT: ninja'd by the man himself.

Shuma

29th Jul 11, 7:50 PM

I understand Gorb, i'm just saying that i hope that that's the true reason, because then it at least leaves hope ;)

Steel*Faith

29th Jul 11, 9:26 PM

@ Steel*Faith: that was Shuma's opinion. He's entitled to it, no?

Sure, but I have my opinions as well, yet Shuma and Caeltos made me out to be either stupid or a troll because of them.

this game is not centered around melee and melee is not predominant in MP

No, but it is just as important as ranged combat in this game. One class is nearly completely ranged, then you have a middle class that uses both melee and ranged heavily, and a class that uses primarily melee - I'd call that balanced in terms importance.

Secondly, having a block is a choice of the player to use it in the right situation. If you're standing ona bridge with several devestators and tacts gunning for you, then yea, standing still and blocking an assault marines attacks might not be the smartest idea - although why does a block ability necessarily mean it's going to make you stay sationary? That's a poor assumption of how a block mechanic would be implemented in a game like this.

The fact is that melee does represent a large portion of this game, and in melee combat, attack and defense are both essential aspects of combat. That would be like having ranged weapons with a blind fire ability, but no aiming capability - that would just be stupid. Yet by your logic, standing still to aim doesn't fit in a game like this because you might get shot.

Shuma

29th Jul 11, 10:32 PM

You don't have to stand still to aim, and if you do, you can do it behind cover. A block button, even if it does not force you to stand still it doesn't give you the liberty to move around since you'd have to be right in front of your enemy, so even if you were circling each other and i don't think this is possible(considering it doesn't seem like you can melee and move at the same time) you'd still only be moving in a very small space, which is pretty much standing still when it comes to AoE weapons like grenades and i assume, the plasma cannon, or worse, the Melta gun.

Again, hence why the ability to roll away is much more useful.

No, but it is just as important as ranged combat in this game.

No it isn't, it might be in SP where you have Orks and Demons running all over you, but that's not what's going to happen in MP considering 2 of the classes use ranged weapons, because we do not know if Tacticals can even use a melee weapon besides their tiny little knife, and at least in SP, you can even use a ranged weapon with the Thunderhammer, if that's true in MP too then not even the assault class is a pure melee combat class, in fact we know for a fact that you can carry a chainsword and bolt gun as the assault class in MP so no, it's not a purely melee class either.

Would it have added more depth to melee combat? Obviously, but my point is that it's not necessary since melee combat isn't a "big" part of the game and if it was there it would largely go unused because you have the ability to roll away from the enemy anyway.

Sure, but I have my opinions as well, yet Shuma and Caeltos made me out to be either stupid or a troll because of them.

Saying "there's no such thing as energy shields in 40k" over and over and over again while everyone told you you were wrong over and over and over again by posting links proving you wrong is not opinion, is just flat out wrong.

Edit:

Oh, and

The fact is that melee does represent a large portion of this game, and in melee combat, attack and defense are both essential aspects of combat.

That's why you can roll around. Just for the record, it also baffles me why there's no block button in the game, my only point is that it's not needed.

Steel*Faith

29th Jul 11, 11:15 PM

Saying "there's no such thing as energy shields in 40k" over and over and over again while everyone told you you were wrong over and over and over again by posting links proving you wrong is not opinion, is just flat out wrong.

That's actually not what the arguement was at all, I wasn't disputing the existence of personal energy shields in Warhammer - that would indeed be pretty fucking stupid. There are personal energy shields in WH40k and they're very rare and powerful, and not given to the common grunt marine; not only that, but they don't look and act like a Halo energy shield. (PS this wasn't a reason to call me stupid or a troll anyway - yet no moderator came to my rescue lol).

The fact is, these shields in the MP aren't even supposed to be an energy shield - they're a visual representation of the power armor being hit (lol). So these personal shields every player has isn't even an Iron Halo, Rosarius, or Refector Shield, they're something that doesn't even exist in the IP. This is what you call dumbing down the integrity of the IP to justify a poor gameplay mechanic. I still hold strongly to the idea that Relic could've made a better representation of the Power Armor taking damage - not some made up Haloesque energy shield.

You don't have to stand still to aim, and if you do, you can do it behind cover.

You can also get close to a player and melee them behind cover or use them as a body shield from enemy fire. For instance, what if I don't want to roll away in a close quater situation, and want to stay in close to my target to ensure my survival? Dodging/rolling might be good in some situations, but a block or counter move might be better in others - that's why it takes skill to determine when to use each move in the appropriate combat situation. I've seen plenty of footage of melee fights, between Tactical Marine or Assault Marine, that didn't take place in an open space for everyone to shoot at you. A mobile counter-attack and block move would do wonders for the depth of the melee combat in the MP.

but that's not what's going to happen in MP considering 2 of the classes use ranged weapons, because we do not know if Tacticals can even use a melee weapon besides their tiny little knife

The MP is completely balanced when it comes to range vs melee combat uses. Assault marines get a pistol, devestators get stomp attacks (enhanced with perks). As for the Tactical, it's a class that can excel at both melee and ranged equally, and they don't get a "little knife" they get a combat knife that is probably the size of a large sword to a guardsmen - but that's cosmetic anyhow - as we've seen in the videos that the knife does good damage, and it can be significantly enhanced with perks.

Would it have added more depth to melee combat? Obviously, but my point is that it's not necessary since melee combat isn't a "big" part of the game and if it was there it would largely go unused because you have the ability to roll away from the enemy anyway

As I've pointed out already, melee and ranged combat play equal roles in the MP, not one or the other; so if your point is that melee doesn't play a "big" part of the game, then you are flat out wrong. I've also made the point that rolling away isn't going to be a viable and useful tactic in every melee encounter. What if you roll away, only to be combat charged, smacked and stunned, and then left unable to defend yourself or counter the attack? Without a block or counter, you're screwed, especially against an Assault class with the enhanced charge perk.

Pocktio

30th Jul 11, 2:54 AM

I guess as it's their first attempt at the genre they are playing it safe, using well known mechanics over innovative and interesting ones.

Aquila

30th Jul 11, 8:25 AM

Honestly, the whole 'block and grapple' thing works well as a novelty in single player, it's annoying as hell in multiplayer. Try Dead Space 2 - the constant button mashing contests are very trivial and basically amount to WHO CAN HIT THE A BUTTON FASTER!? In reality, despite this whole concept of awesome fluff immersion or whatever the heck you want to call it that you've build up around it, there is no beneficial difference between two characters punching each other over and over again and one character punching and the other blocking over and over again, only that the one who is blocking won't be doing any damage to his assailant. Why you would want that is beyond me.

And since you apparently do not like the game mechanics rebuttal, here's a 'fluffy' answer for you. You can't block power weapons. Boom. Let's talk about something relevant now please.

silencer

30th Jul 11, 8:37 AM

it's annoying as hell in multiplayer.
I agree, I would rather have fast-phaced combat than slow-phased combat, a blocking system would only slow combat down, and didn't Relic say:"there will be no cover system", then litterally they didn't make a cover system of which blocking could be a form of cover to melee combat.
rolling away is more avoiding a melee strike rather then cover.

but I do have the question: can we run through stuff (thin walls for example) in MP, as seen in SP?

Vuther

30th Jul 11, 2:39 PM

but I do have the question: can we run through stuff (thin walls for example) in MP, as seen in SP?
Probably not, we likely would of heard of a cool feature like that by now, not to mention it might cause a bit of havoc upon the smaller maps which are balanced for 8 versus 8, where the other examples of destructible environments in a shooter I know of (Battlefield: Bad Company 2 and Battlefield 3, heard Red Faction: Guerilla had it but I never played it or knew how many players can be in an MP match) have may much more players in a single match and larger maps as a result that can deal with stuff breaking better. If they implemented it within Space Marine right now and made it remotely balanced, it'd likely be a small novelty in very specific spots on the maps...and thus, barely worth implementing.

Snakeb1te

30th Jul 11, 3:56 PM

I guess as it's their first attempt at the genre they are playing it safe, using well known mechanics over innovative and interesting ones.

Something I've been keeping in mind leading up to this game. To be perfectly honest I'm looking forward far more to DoW3, and even Space Marine's sequel. Then we'll see some ballsy and innovate gameplay as these games won't be testing the waters.
Perhaps related to that point is that I feel Relic knows people have wanted a good RPG (or FPS) game for the 40k universe for a long time, and have therefore little bothered with making the gameplay over the top fantastic. I think the company knows that this game will sell even if the gameplay is good but boring and repetitive in the long run. Which is sad but that's the privilege of having a strong IP.

I'm not a Relic hater, but I always love and appreciate companies that give you value for money, and show how much they care for their customers/fanbase. Blizzard is a fantastic example and if you buy Starcraft 2 you'll know exactly what I mean. Ok its another one of their cashcows and they know they'll make a lot of money out of tournaments and whatever the koreans are up to, but they also have plenty of stuff for the more casual gamers. I'm still in awe at how patches takes so long to come out for other games, and yet for Starcraft 2 I see one almost every time I log on! DoW2 on the other hand has map imbalances, and a fair few bugs that need - -

Anyway my point is that as a paying customer, I expect quality and I would have no problem in paying even around the £40 mark for a good, lasting game. I hope Relic doesn't sit back and wait for the money to roll in on an average game just because its 40k and there are a lot of nuts of the franchise out there willing to buy a game on release day because they can walk around in power armour. That being said, its clear that a lot of effort went into the army painter and for that at least I am grateful. Lets hope the gameplay turns out to be interesting enough to enjoy time and time again.

And since you apparently do not like the game mechanics rebuttal, here's a 'fluffy' answer for you. You can't block power weapons. Boom. Let's talk about something relevant now please.

What about a dodge? This might sound random but Dragonball Z: Budokai 3 made it so that you could dodge on the spot by pressing only one button if you timed it right. It wouldn't move you anywhere (as that would be unfair for the sneaky bastards shooting at two ASMs duelling) but it would just show a split second animation of you "avoiding" the melee attack aimed at you by moving whatever body part the weapon was going to hit. That, coupled with rolling away could have made melee a lot more interesting instead of just "land and smash the attack button." But we'll see.

Snakeb1te

30th Jul 11, 3:57 PM

*Cough* Double post :D

Chompster

30th Jul 11, 8:44 PM

Try Dead Space 2 - the constant button mashing contests are very trivial and basically amount to WHO CAN HIT THE A BUTTON FASTER!? but.. its no different now, its just mindless button mashing to swing wildly till your opponent is dead.. just sayin.
so much reading on this page.. can we move to another topic that involves fewer walls of text?

oh and Snakeb1te

I'm still in awe at how patches takes so long to come out for other games, and yet for Starcraft 2 I see one almost every time I log on!in my eyes that a very bad thing, it basically means they shipped a half assed game and now that its out have to go fix and changed things.. id be in awe aswell but for other reasons(if i played it that is) unless its a patch that adds new stuff, then well yea thats good but not if their bug fixes

TheV3ng3ance

30th Jul 11, 9:01 PM

Because starcraft 2 totally isn't rock,paper,scissors remix soooooo innovative. If that's what you think innovative is than I could never take you seriously ever again.

Pocktio

31st Jul 11, 1:08 AM

The melee isn't anything like button mashing from DS2. Look at the trailers, if you wildly spasm on your controller you will miss, be overextended and be smashed into tiny ceramite chunks. Timing and aiming should add a bit more depth, I hope.

Also on DS2, button mashing only wins if you have wounded the human significantly beforehand. It's not just jump and hug to death.

Akagi_Ryu

31st Jul 11, 2:41 AM

To be fully honest, after concidering all the pros and cons of this kind of system... I have to say I like it.
I expected SpaceMarine MP to be a simple slaughterfest with marines with customizable skins and what I get in the end is a simple slaughterfest with customizable skins AND perks and unlockable stuff.

While having Demon's Souls grade melee system is nice and all, I don't mind this being simple, really.

And I can't say I really mind the shields VS blood either as much. I see it as nothing more than a game mechanic to make it balanced and not a 1 hit 1 kill game, wich is good if you ask me.

I'm excited, I want, take my money and all that stuff :)
And I'm all for DLC models (GIVEMETHOUSANDSONS) so, generally, YAY ;3

No Surrender

31st Jul 11, 6:30 AM

That's actually not what the arguement was at all, I wasn't disputing the existence of personal energy shields in Warhammer - that would indeed be pretty fucking stupid. There are personal energy shields in WH40k and they're very rare and powerful, and not given to the common grunt marine; not only that, but they don't look and act like a Halo energy shield. (PS this wasn't a reason to call me stupid or a troll anyway - yet no moderator came to my rescue lol).

The fact is, these shields in the MP aren't even supposed to be an energy shield - they're a visual representation of the power armor being hit (lol). So these personal shields every player has isn't even an Iron Halo, Rosarius, or Refector Shield, they're something that doesn't even exist in the IP. This is what you call dumbing down the integrity of the IP to justify a poor gameplay mechanic. I still hold strongly to the idea that Relic could've made a better representation of the Power Armor taking damage - not some made up Haloesque energy shield.
How do you know that energy shielding in the Imperium doesn't look or act like a Halo energy shield? Most Imperial shield technology relies on conversion fields, i.e. they convert the kinetic or heat energy of the projectile into harmless light. That is certainly consistent with energy shields flaring up when hit. As for being "very rare", you consistently refuse to respond to the fact that Imperial Guard colonels or even junior officers have either easy access to such shields or come with them as standard issue weapons, depending on which codex you look at. They're not common by any means but neither are Space Marines. Shielding is not issued to Marine squads but that doesn't mean they're not issued to Inquisition sanctioned kill-teams or whatever reason there is that marines of various chapters are fighting together against Chaos. Fluff aside, just because you apparently don't think people play games on small monitors doesn't mean that visibility isn't going to be an issue for some people. In defiance of the clear evidence I have posted you still insist that a visible damage indicator is a "poor gameplay mechanic". Are you simply going to ignore my points and rehash your own ad infinitum? If so, just tell me so I can stop wasting my time.

As for a "block" button, how would you propose such a button could be implemented without slowing down the gameplay unacceptably or completely unbalancing gameplay in favour of ranged weapons? An assault marine is already handicapped by the fact that he must close to melee range with his foe to do real damage while other classes can simply blast away at range. The jump pack helps but the class is going to be unplayable if an assault marine can get into melee with a devastator and the devastator can simply block or dodge until a team mate arrives to shoot the assault marine to death. If the block button is going to be based on specific timing then lag is going to be a huge issue. If it's not and can be held for an amount of time then I refer you to the incredibly irritating Armour Lock ability in Halo: Reach.

Blueliner07

31st Jul 11, 7:59 AM

Someone over at the Space Marine forums posted this picture of a card he got from a Game Stop employee. It lists 5 player CO-OP and something about 30 day DLC.

I am sure we will get the official word soon but just another little piece of info for now I guess.

Picture link: http://s1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc424/demonfire922010/?action=view&current=WP_000060.jpg

Space Marine Forum Thread Link: http://www.spacemarine.com/forums/topic/2321?page=2

SPEZZMAREN

31st Jul 11, 8:28 AM

I believe Section 8: Prejudice did the same thing with one of its game modes, made it a free DLC.

In fact, i'm pretty certain as I own section 8!

Carl

31st Jul 11, 10:37 AM

@No Surrender:

Codex does not = Fluff in most cases. Background wise convershion Feilds are bruttally rare, even more so than power wepaons. And power weapons on even really high ranking guardsmen are not normal. Yes they turn up. But they're allways somthign of an exception to the rule. Fluff wise ,(well last time i read up on this, i suspect it might have changed), SM Captains where not allways issued with iron Halos. Thats how rare they are fluff wise. That even the highest ranking members of the Chapter bellow the mAster cnanot allways requisiton a Convershion feild.

Also can everyone please stop acting delivretly dense or counter trollish. I'm not sure which it is, btu Steel's complaint about the Sheild mechanic is pretty clear and 100% accurratte. There's using a sheild mechanic to represent armour. no known armour in the 40K universe finctions as a sheild based. It may contain a sheild as part of it's makeup, but the armour surface is not itself a sheild.

The thing i think he needs to remember is that this isn;t what Relic are doing. it's called a sdheild it looks like a sheild, but it is in no respect whatsoever representing a sheild. it's representing the layers of ceramite and plasteel that power armour is made of. The Naming convention, mechanichs system, and vishual elements are all carry overs from SP where it does in fact represent a sheild. Specificlly an Iron Halo, use by Captain Titus, (Who as a captain lost on a FW could be expected to potentiolly posses or find one). They simply didn;t create new art assets or naming conventions because A) The sheild art effects are much more visable, hence better for MP play, B) It would mean adding considrable extra art and other assets and possibbly extra game code to do otherwise. That adds to QA time, QA cost and development time and costs. Their budget is pre-assigned, so any extra monetary or time costs mean we get less content elsewhere. Depending on how the game loads it's assets, it might also result in more stuff having to be kept in the memmory and thus hinder performance as well.

Mac_Bug

31st Jul 11, 11:35 AM

not sure what fluff has to do with multiplayer, should only one of you get a power axe cause power weapons are rare? should only 2 of you be devastator because nobody would send a whole team of devastators to battle? Are you not supposed to have iron halo because you are sucha red shirt, even though you wear some champion armor with 6 badges?

Vuther

31st Jul 11, 11:51 AM

Someone over at the Space Marine forums posted this picture of a card he got from a Game Stop employee. It lists 5 player CO-OP and something about 30 day DLC.
Interesting...FIVE players?

silencer

31st Jul 11, 12:44 PM

Also can everyone please stop acting delivretly dense or counter trollish.

I agree, some people really are being offensive to others.

30 day DLC.
that's probably why Co-op was scrapped from steam, I think it's cleanse mode that will be this so called DLC, as it is co-op with 5 players, as for the 5 players it was confirmed a while ago, though I agree with vuther it is a rather interesting/uncommon number for a sort of survival mode.

Chompster

31st Jul 11, 12:47 PM

interesting indeed, 5 players seems like a lot compared to the last stand. and with that many players... we must be fighting huge waves! so exciting to hear!
since it'll be a month after release(i guess?) i hope they use that time to really tweak and make it as unique as possible. and maybe even add a little intro/cutscene this time, not just spawning on a map.

Vuther

31st Jul 11, 1:41 PM

it is a rather interesting/uncommon number for a sort of survival mode.

Space Marine will break ground with five player splitscreen on a console game! YEAH.

Obviously, that'd probably be a bad idea...my television could never withstand that.

interesting indeed, 5 players seems like a lot compared to the last stand. and with that many players... we must be fighting huge waves! so exciting to hear!
since it'll be a month after release(i guess?) i hope they use that time to really tweak and make it as unique as possible. and maybe even add a little intro/cutscene this time, not just spawning on a map.
Hopefully, it'll be really this. YEAH, in all honesty.

Fw_rofl

31st Jul 11, 2:49 PM

http://s1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc424/demonfire922010/?action=view&current=WP_000060.jpg
It's normal version going to be in metal box ?

Vuther

31st Jul 11, 3:22 PM

It's normal version going to be hidden in BOXES! METAL BOXES! OUR VIDEO GAMES HIDE IN METAL BOXES! THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS!
Sorry, I love memes.

No Surrender

31st Jul 11, 9:33 PM

Codex does not = Fluff in most cases. Background wise convershion Feilds are bruttally rare, even more so than power wepaons. And power weapons on even really high ranking guardsmen are not normal. Yes they turn up. But they're allways somthign of an exception to the rule. Fluff wise ,(well last time i read up on this, i suspect it might have changed), SM Captains where not allways issued with iron Halos. Thats how rare they are fluff wise. That even the highest ranking members of the Chapter bellow the mAster cnanot allways requisiton a Convershion feild.

Firstly I think it's disingenuous to say that codex entries do not reflect fluff in most cases. If I pointed at the fact that every Space Marine comes with a boltgun and power armour in the army list, would that not be fluff? If I pointed at the fact that almost every guardsman comes with a lasgun and flak armour, would that not be fluff? If I pointed to the fact that every Howling Banshee came with a power weapon, would that not be fluff? I agree that the weapon strengths and abilities of wargear may not correspond to fluff but I think there's a case to be made that the standard issue of a certain piece of equipment to a unit would at least suggest that they have easy access to that equipment in the fluff. Even if the army list portions of codecies aren't fluff I refer you to Page 16 of the 4th Edition IG Codex where there is an illustration and caption which states: "The illustration is clearly an officer as he is wearing the distinctive gorget used by Cadian regiments to protect refractor field circuitry". Given that the caption does not say "Clearly a senior officer" it suggests that it would not be out of the question for even a junior officer to lay his hands on a refractor field. As for Space Marine Captains not always getting issued Iron Halos, they are standard issue as of the 5th Edition Codex.

Conversion fields are rare in books and such because they simply make for extremely anti-climactic writing. The reader feels cheated when the hero of the story is about to get his head blown off only to have his handy energy field save his ass. It's also illogical to compare conversion fields to power weapons in terms of rarity because they're two entirely separate issues of equipment. By that logic one could just as easily say that power armour is never given to Imperial Guardsmen, therefore Power Armour is rarer than both power weapons and conversion fields. Therefore since every Space Marine gets a suit of Power Armour they should also be decked out with Conversion Fields and Power Swords. See why that line of reasoning is absurd?

But yeah, that's just a fluff argument that has nothing to do with the actual game. I am well aware of Relic's decision to make the shield a representation for the protective properties of Power Armour and needed people to be able to tell at a glance whether they are shooting at health or armour, even on a small monitor or crappy TV. I agree with this decision entirely. In fact I think you raise some excellent points in the 3rd paragraph of your post about extra assets, QA and the possibility of people not intimately familiar with the universe getting confused in the switch between MP and SP. The entire "Space Marines could conceivably have access to refractor fields" argument is, in my mind, a defense of the age old TT practice of "If it doesn't make sense, make up something to make it make sense" for strange matchups and wargear combos (Grey Knights vs Grey Knights, who's the traitor? Make something up!). There are a number of explanations that I could think of that are consistent with the fluff to explain why SMs and CSMs would have access to energy barriers if one was determined to think of them as energy barriers. I've already raised an explanation of how they're fighting on a Forgeworld so it's possible that they stumbled upon a shipment of refractors and decided to use them. It's equally possible that they're some sort of Deathwatch-style killteam made up of different chapters, specially tasked and equipped with hunting down Chaos Marines. All I'm saying is that as a matter of fluff energy shielding isn't so "ZOMG RARE" that you could never kit out 8 marines with it or have them stumble over 8 refractors sitting in a box somewhere on a Forgeworld.

Shuma

31st Jul 11, 11:54 PM

Oops, forgot i was having an argument here.

@Steel:

Shall i go back and quote you where you said "This shit doesn't even exist in the WH40k universe, and it's a blatant rip-off of halo"? In fact, i'll do it anyway:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?261373-Multiplayer-Blowout-Consolidation-Thread&p=1045274046&viewfull=1#post1045274046

And after several of us pointed out that you were wrong you ignored all our posts, if that's not trolling, then you were being stupid since you weren't wording what you meant right, but ok let's move away from that, because now you're saying that they do exist in 40k, now just to be sure, you're now arguing this:

There are personal energy shields in WH40k and they're very rare and powerful, and not given to the common grunt marine; not only that, but they don't look and act like a Halo energy shield.

Right? Ok, one: Personal shields are not very rare and powerful, i don't know why people keep saying that, fluff wise and codex wise they're common among priests and IG officers, which means that Space Marines should have no problem getting them, now here's the thing, they're not given to grunt marines, i agree with that. However, i do not agree with the idea of that you play as a grunt marine, for starts in SP you're a Captain and in MP you're a bunch of random marines with kick ass gear, carrying relic bolters, relic chainswords and relic armor, so i doubt that they're meant to be grunt marines. And lastly, who the fuck are you to decide how the shield looks, did you whine about how they look in DoW II? Because they look more stupid in DoW II, in fact the representation of this "shield" in Space Marine fits perfectly with the description of refactor shields in 40k fluff.\

Why you keep ignoring all this is beyond me, my only clue is that you just want to whine for the sake of whining, which would be, surprise surprise, trolling.

The fact is, these shields in the MP aren't even supposed to be an energy shield - they're a visual representation of the power armor being hit (lol).

According to some random Relic employee that PM'd you, of which we have no evidence and doesn't fit with what we know, for all i know whoever sent you the message did it only to get you to shut up after having to read your 3 page long rant, because like i said the shields look exactly like how a refractor shield would look, and secondly, if it was meant to be the armor, then the giant yellow glowing bar on top of the screen would say ARMOR not SHIELD, now if Relic did meant this to be a representation of Armor, then they are being retarded too, but if there's one thing that Relic has nailed about the 40k IP is the look. Everything else that could be said about this has already been said by No Surrender so no point in me repeating it, but fact of the matter is that it's an incredibly minimal thing, if you're so concerned about Fluff why don't you argue about MP having 16 random Space marines and Chaos Marines each from a different chapter/warband bashing each other's skulls out? Now that is really fucking stupid.

As for the whole block thing, it seems that argument has already been done perfectly too, but about your argument of a "block button would be useful in some situations" in what situations? The only situation i can see where blocking would be useful would be IF 2 players wanted to have a go at it purely on melee, in a random match a player would just back step and shoot you in the face if you keep blocking.

The MP is completely balanced when it comes to range vs melee combat uses.

That is your assumption, Relic has only said that the game has a good blend of ranged and melee combat, not that it's perfectly balanced, hell just from the simple fact that 2 classes are centered on ranged combat and that there's more ranged weapons than melee weapons it should be pretty fucking obvious that it is not completely balanced between ranged and melee combat, and yes, the Devastators has a stomp ability, that doesn't mean it can go toe to toe in melee combat with an Assault Marine, it barely counts as a melee move.

As for the Tactical, it's a class that can excel at both melee and ranged equally, and they don't get a "little knife" they get a combat knife that is probably the size of a large sword to a guardsmen

Do we know that? If haven't seen any evidence that the tactical class can even use melee weapons besides the knife, as for the little knife comment, yeah, it is little compared to a Space Marine, why are you comparing them to guardsmen? They're not in MP.

As I've pointed out already, melee and ranged combat play equal roles in the MP, not one or the other; so if your point is that melee doesn't play a "big" part of the game, then you are flat out wrong.

No, my point is that ranged combat plays a bigger role than melee combat.

I've also made the point that rolling away isn't going to be a viable and useful tactic in every melee encounter. What if you roll away, only to be combat charged, smacked and stunned, and then left unable to defend yourself or counter the attack? Without a block or counter, you're screwed, especially against an Assault class with the enhanced charge perk.

Barely made a point, you just said "For instance, what if I don't want to roll away in a close quater situation, and want to stay in close to my target to ensure my survival? Dodging/rolling might be good in some situations, but a block or counter move might be better in others" where's the point? You just said it might be better to block in some situations, what situation? As for the rest of that quote, if you were combat charged, smacked, stunned and left unable to defend yourself and counter attack, you wouldn't be able to block either, and if you tried to block any of those things, it would leave you unable to counter attack, but if you just roll away, you CAN counter attack, seem y point?

A block button would've been nice, but it isn't needed and you haven't disproven that, you have just said that it would be good to have it there, and if you want a fluff reason, then like Aquila said, how would you even block these weapons? Can't block Power weapons, and if you blocked a chainsword with one it would destroy the chainsword, what happens then in-game? The enemy can't use melee until he respawns? How would you implement a block button?

silencer

1st Aug 11, 1:57 AM

Space Marine will break ground with five player splitscreen on a console game! YEAH.
Obviously, that'd probably be a bad idea...my television could never withstand that.
So you will be playing it on ps3?
I really hope splitscreen is ingame, but I hope my ps3 will not implode indeed.
as for cleanse mode I hope, since they have 30 more days, they will add some extra awesomeness to it.
pst: tyranids...

It's normal version going to be in metal box ?
it's the box, lol, I thought it was some kind of card, as this below shows the normal version I believe.

http://www.google.nl/imgres?q=space+marine+box&um=1&hl=nl&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&tbm=isch&tbnid=V0f4DEuBfn-btM:&imgrefurl=http://world-00.com/%253Fp%253D339&docid=hMGZRXdewxGoyM&w=357&h=500&ei=CGo2TqTSHseSOqmvpNcL&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=738&vpy=411&dur=188&hovh=266&hovw=190&tx=126&ty=120&page=2&tbnh=150&tbnw=105&start=31&ndsp=36&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:31&biw=1280&bih=902

Misterpeanut288

1st Aug 11, 11:11 AM

German interview with McDermott added which confirms no co-op at launch.(German captions english audio) :(

The interview also appears to answer why there are not executions/blocking, but I can't say for sure because the question was not included and I don't understand German.

Chompster

1st Aug 11, 11:44 AM

http://www.co-optimus.com/game/2137/playstation-3/warhammer-40k-space-marine.html

no splintscreen or LAN

Misterpeanut288

1st Aug 11, 11:51 AM

While I don't think the game will have splitscreen I wouldn't trust co-optimus just a few days ago they were still displaying 4 player co-op suggesting they are getting information from rumors.

Edit: Oh and before a herald of the gaming apocalypse swoops telling us of are imminent destruction at the hands of paid DLC co-op is going to be free.

Chompster

1st Aug 11, 11:56 AM

yea i read that aswell but if you look at the videos so far you only seen online and no where that says anything about LAN or something. thought we still havea month to go it would be pretty late for them to add a menu option for it now..

ricolikesrice

1st Aug 11, 12:57 PM

really disappointed, its just 30 days and there are more than enough games out there to play but lacking co-op mode on release will certainly influence reviews negativly ( at least 5 of the previews i read for the multiplayer blowout specifically mentioned looking forward to co-op moreso than the multiplayer they were shown ) and make lots of people reconsider their purchase (and then at day30 the game will usually be 30-50% off so less money for THQ/relic).

i m not sure they set their priorities right there, expecting another RF:A fail commercially (and RF:A isnt even that bad, i mean it kinda sucks that its a corridor shooter rather than a proper RF:G sandbox sequel but judged as a corridor shooter its alot better than many others of that genre...)

the worst thing though is that IF it fails, the geniuses at THQ will likely attribute that fail to 40k not being popular enough rather than that maybe they didnt put enough effort into the game and the target audience is spoiled by similar games that offer a lot more bang for their buck. (content-wise, gameplay is obviously highly subjective)

oh well. see you on October 6th (or rather 7th as the 6th its my first sons birthday so at least thats a good omen for the co-op :p ), Space Marine. wishing you the best of luck , you ll likely need it handicapped like that.