*MP Question thread*

[Steel*Faith]

How can you level up in MP!? I'm stuck at level 5 and it's driving me crazy because it doesn't tell me how to get to level 6! I'm getting lots of kills with the Tactical Marine, and even got Kraken Bolts unlocked recently (and they rock!), although I'm stuck at needing 1 exp point until the next level. Can anyone help please!?

[coldplay]

What platform? In the Online Menu, does it say anything on the right side of the screen about unlocking progress to beyond Level 5? I know that there's a THQ Pass thing required if a person purchased the game used.

[Darklight004]

Speaking from the 360 standpoint:

On the back of the Game Manual, there is a passcode that you enter into the Xbox LIVE Redeem Code screen. I am assuming it's very similar for the PS3, but for PC I have no idea... Steam's little CD Key Viewer may or may not have it listed

[Kam!kazee]

For the PC version you don't need an mp passcode, as your game will be already tied to your steam account. Console users need an mp key (1 is included) and if you buy the game used you need to aquire one yourself.

[malklavious]

Good to know, glad I read this before I started playing much MP.

Thread derail: I know there are no dedicated servers, but can you jump into a game in progress or do you need to wait for a new game to start to join?

[Shuma]

Yep.

[Pseudonymn]

I think a better questions is how the fuck are you supposed to level up in a room full of L30+ people with 8 hours per day to spend playing this game when you're a guy like me with only a few spare moments here and there to dedicate to this game?

What happened to the good old days when players had to collect their weapons from on the map rather than unlock them solely by virtue of the amount of time they have invested in the game?

This current system has taken all the worst symptoms of old-school uber-weapon camping and institutionalized it by turning it into a system of tiered accessibility, rewarding those with the most time on their hands.

I don't see myself ranking up to level 30 or whatever is required to unlock these weapons that keep one-shotting me (god damn las/plasma cannons!!) for months to come and my desire to make the effort now is made even less so by the steep climb I have ahead of me behind everyone else that already have while it was "easy". Right now, I feel like points fodder for the already top tier, spawn camping las cannon whores.

inb4 u mad?

Yes, I'm mad!

[Vuther]

What happened to the good old days when players had to collect their weapons from on the map rather than unlock them solely by virtue of the amount of time they have invested in the game?
I don't really like both. The former makes the game a race to get the weapons making not getting them generally means you're fucked and turns the use of the weapons that aren't picked up into "well, I don't have a pickup, gotta use this". The latter, as you all know, makes the discrepancy not fun for the lower levels. JUST GIMME THE FRAGGIN' GUNS

[Sabulum]

Right now, I feel like points fodder for the already top tier, spawn camping las cannon whores.


It takes like two hours to get the most important and basic unlocks and if you're really angry about it, just play a private seize ground game with a friend and run around the map capping/uncapping the points.

If you're only playing a "few spare moments" though, you're going to be fodder in any MP game that requires skill to play though. Sorry.

[Pseudonymn]

If you're only playing a "few spare moments" though, you're going to be fodder in any MP game that requires skill to play though. Sorry.>Implying I haven't actually been playing shooters since, like, 1995.

Shooters are nothing new to me and although this is not an FPS, it is still a shooter. Is it not? Anyway, I'm not here to argue semantics with you. My point is simply that I have been playing MP games since the earliest days with games like Doom2 on dialup, multi-line, multiplexed BBS servers (read: before the internet became mainstream and made MP gaming easy). You really shouldn't assume I'm unskilled and unwashed in matters of MP games. I may not be the best but I'm a long ways from being incompetent. All things being equal, I can take my spare moments and do well enough at the games I play provided that, as I said, all things are equal and the playing field is kept level. Things are not kept level, however, when powerful upgrades are handed out to people with more time to invest than others.

This sort of "character progression" belongs in SP campaigns and MMORPGS, not in MP arenas.

[Shuma]

Chill /v/, while it's true that it gets really unfair when a lvl 30 something assault marine with a giant hammer that one hit kills you lands on your face, it's also true that the starting weapons are really really good, you'll see Tactical marines with bolters across all ranks, same with HB devastators and the assault marines with chainswords.

To be honest, i wouldn't have liked the "guns are scattered all over the map" thing, just doesn't seem to fit this game imo, but i would've liked that you were able to select all weapons from the start.

[mred]

I was wondering; for those of you that play on PC, do you prefer a controller or keyboard and mouse. I'm assuming the latter, but does it negatively affect melee that much?

[Misiok]

Why should it? If demo is of any telling, it's rather fast, fluid and sexy, to be able to shoot and punch with a single mouse!

[Pseudonymn]

@Shuma:
I'm not at all suggesting that goodies dropped and scattered around the map is the best solution at all, but it would be preferable, imo, to this level-based system. I'm really in favor of weapons and perks simply being made available to all and let people pick and chose frome those that fit the class and best suit their style of play.

The bottom line is that we now have level 30's camping spawns with their favorite big guns; whether meltas, plasma and las cannons, and/or grenades farming even more exp without making any attempt to capture the point. They are all essentially one-shot weapons against which a stock bolter just isn't going to be of much use. I can escape with ASM, mostly, but that kit runs into a whole mess of other problems all of its own.

@Mred: I've found that the keyboard, for the purposes of this game, is rather imprecise. I've taken up a sort of gamepad-mouse hybrid setup. The mouse controls the cammera and all "action" buttons while the game pad in my left had controls movement with the stick/button, weapons, grenades, and scope toggle (left analogue, dpad, two paddles). It worked beautifully for the campaign and MP I'm sure, if I ever manage to get a leg up out of my spawn points.
:ballchain:wtf::spartaaa:

[Sabulum]

Things are not kept level, however, when powerful upgrades are handed out to people with more time to invest than others.

I don't like the perk system either. But the challenges, which give lots of XP, reward skill, and its easy to unlock enough weapons to be competitive now. If you're honestly complaining that people who play more are beating you, well, the perk system is probably not the reason why.

@Mred: I like the controller better for the campaign, but keyboard/mouse is much better for MP. Even for the assault class, it's easy enough to spam right-click for melee (stuns aren't that useful), and what separates good assault players from bad ones is precision with the bolt or plasma pistol while moving around. For the other classes, precision shooting is even more important.

[Pseudonymn]

It has more to do with spawncamping laswhores than getting beat in a fair, toe-to-toe fight. Their behavior is facilitated by an institutionalized uber-weapon camping mechanic that makes countering their prefered method of farming Exp a major pain in the ass.

[Ap0k]

Copy their loadout when they kill you -> beat them in a now fair fight.

[Pocktio]

I like to troll lascannon campers by sneaking up on them with my stormbolter. They always have tunnel vision, and the ones that don't are comically unable to deal with the stormbolter v. lascannon scenario.

[Gorb]

Pseudonym: Assault Marines, yo.

[Uncle Benny]

Copy their loadout when they kill you -> beat them in a now fair fight. This. Seriously, it doesn't take "8 hours a day" to level up pretty quick. Even if you suck, you're getting some XP, plus you can get bonus XP for dying.Yup. If you're in the shit, drop a grenade, if you manage to take anyone with you (can't remember the title), or if you damage someone that a teammate then finishes off (Assist), etc. you get bonus XP. There are some options that are even unlocked buy simply being on the winning team, even if you just completely suck. I play for a bit here and there, and am already up to lvl 16 or thereabouts.

Pseudonymn: What Gorb said. You can't just rush them head-on, at the same time it would be bullshit if they couldn't snipe you. Dev/Havocs aren't supposed to sit there and wait until you get in h2h, they're supposed to kill from a distance. Raptors/ASM need to use BOUNDING COVER. Jump, if you see someone staked out, drop! Run/hop/jump from cover to cover, come at them from behind, the side, or jump right up into their face, hack/slash/etc. You will die, it happens. You should also learn from it, though. I really wish there was an Observer Mode (Are you listening, Relic?), so you could watch others' tactics and see their loadouts. As it is, you just have to learn on the fly.

[Kam!kazee]

I just played with a friend who got the game today, his very first mp game. I'm close to lvl 30, and the game was full of lvl 25+ people. Guess what? 5 minutes in my friend has a kill streak of 8, with just the bolter, against all these plasma cannon and lascannon wielding people.

Also tbh, the starting weapons are great, especially for the assault marine I feel like the unlocks are actually downgrades.

[Mirage Knight]

I can see where Pseudonymn and players in his position are coming from with his complaint, even as a level 20 player. As he suggested, I think being able to pick from an array of perks and weapons before an actual game starts - and then be able to switch / change loadouts when you die and before you respawn is a bit fairer.

For those having a hard time...Yes you can copy loadouts of your killers, including perks, but if you don't know how to really make use of that loadout it's a waste of time and you're still cannon fodder. And in a sense it is a bit unfair to players just getting into MP to have to face off against lvl 30+ players that have access to better weapons, two perk slots, and a variety of bonuses that enhance their ability to either reduce incoming damage or inflict more on an opponent. This has the effect of possibly making the game less than friendly to casuals or just people who really want to play the game but simply don't have the time to grind 2+ hours a day to unlock the tools they need to compete with people who have had the time to do so. Games should be fun for people, not frustrating.

I'm not saying kill all the unlocks, just the ones for perks and weapons to make the playing field more equitable.

And I really don't want to hear any of this "If you don't have the time to level and unlock, you shouldn't be playing this game" crap. It smacks of arrogant elitism.


Guess what? 5 minutes in my friend has a kill streak of 8, with just the bolter, against all these plasma cannon and lascannon wielding people.

Good for him. However I'm sure there are newbies that aren't as lucky or skilled as your friend that are finding it hard to kill higher level players - even with copy loadout.

Just my two cents.

[peer]

However I'm sure there are newbies that aren't as lucky or skilled as your friend that are finding it hard to kill higher level players - even with copy loadout.

Uh, how is this different from most other multiplayer games? A guy who bought the game 30 minutes ago will get his ass handed to him by players who are familiar with the weapons, maps and mechanics. That's what a learning curve is. Copy loadout equalises the playing field (more or less), so that the determining factors are skill and luck. As they should be.

[konfeta]

Copy loadout actually fails pretty hard at equalizing the playing field because it relies on getting consistently killed by the same player.

[Shuma]

That reminds me, has anyone managed to get grudge kills? I haven't gotten a single one, how the hell am i supposed to kill the same guy 5 times in a single match?

[Gorb]

Copy loadout actually fails pretty hard at equalizing the playing field because it relies on getting consistently killed by the same player.If you get killed by someone with an inferior loadout (in your opinion), then you need to man up and/or deal with it.

If you get killed by someone with a superior loadout (in your opinion), then you copy his or her stuff. It doesn't have to be the same stuff every time.

[konfeta]

Using the right load out against the enemy team composition matters more than blindly copying the flavor of your last death. It's not that bad because you level fast and can get the basic load outs in quickly, but lack of versatility will always hurt in this sort of progression system.

Personally, the more annoying part is the load out "slot" limitation.

[Mirage Knight]

That's what a learning curve is.

A learning curve is one thing. Most can deal with that and I feel good MP games should ALWAYS boil down to proper weapon usage, reaction time, and tactics to determine the outcome of a match. But having a system that allows higher level players to gain access to weapons and bonuses to make them even harder to kill unfairly shifts balance in favour of said high level players. Good skill and copying loadout isn't necessarily going to help you overcome, for example, that one Devastator with a Lascannon, Iron Halo, Feel No Pain, and Combat Stims that's been consistently sniping you and your teammates halfway across the map.


If you get killed by someone with a superior loadout (in your opinion), then you copy his or her stuff. It doesn't have to be the same stuff every time.

Counterpoint: For some people it's not as simple as you make it sound. The moment the game starts, you will have high level players running around that have a formidable advantage that is difficult for at least some players to overcome.

Seriously, folks in this thread need to step into the shoes of people just picking up this game. Try and figure out how THEY would feel. YOU were Level 1 when you first played. Would you want to have more skilled and experienced players getting combat bonuses and better weapons from the very start of a match? Bonuses and weapons you can't get unless you copy loadout or are able to get to that level? How about having to face not one but several high level players all intent on killing you newbies for XP that will let them become even more difficult for you to beat?

Not as much fun now is it?

[Gorb]

Except that your default weaponry is more than capable of netting you a kill. Furthermore, as soon as you are killed by a player, you can copy their stuff. If you seriously consider the bolter a severe disadvantage, then it doesn't matter how effective your copied loadout is, simply because of the mindset that "anything is better than the bolter", which must be true because apparently the bolter sucks.

So either the bolter sucks, and anything is an upgrade, regardless of the composition of the enemy team . . . or the bolter is useful, and copying a loadout is situational. You can't have it both ways :p

[Mirage Knight]

as soon as you are killed by a player, you can copy their stuff

Quite aware of that.


So either the bolter sucks, and anything is an upgrade, regardless of the composition of the enemy team . . . or the bolter is useful, and copying a loadout is situational. You can't have it both ways

I'm not even talking about that mate. Not even remotely. I never said or implied anything regarding wanting things both ways. What I'm talking about is the disparity between newbies with a single perk slot and Level 20+ Players with two perk slots and unlocked perks that can make fights between new and veteran players a bit lobsided. I'm talking about perks that flat out improve weapons or make you more resistant to damage - perks that are normally NOT available to new players until they've been killed. This potentially restricts the ability of new players to level up and do well when they're faced with players that are more resistant to damage or heal faster or inflict damage faster than they can.

In short, I'm saying this unlockable perk and slot system skews the game's balance in favour of vet players and I feel that's unfair.

And if the weapons are all decently balanced (I think they are for the most part but that remains to be seen for sure but that's a given due to the newness of the game), why not have them ALL available from level 1? Why not do the same with perks? Shit, why not just have leveling up in MP unlock only armour and such? There's your fairness and balance, while still leaving in an incentive to level up / keep playing. But if a game is really fun and interesting to play, is balanced, has a good setting and appealing visual style, has strong code, etc. - that's all the incentive you should need to keep playing said game, no?

*dons flame retardant armour*

[Pseudonymn]

If anyone's interested, I'd like to direct your attention to something Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Escapist Magazine's "Zero Punctuation" fame had to say about Brink recently:

Click the link (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/3286-Brink) and forward the slider to 3:11 and watch/listen until about until about 3:25.

Transcript as follows,


"The classes do get more differentiated if you play the game long enough to unlock character upgrades, but having to unlock what should be an essential aspect of the game seems a bit batty nuggets! What's the logical conclusion of this? A game that's just a blank screen until you've stared at it long enough to unlock the start game button?"

--- Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, Escapist Magazine; "Brink"

Also, Mirage has done a much better job of articulating the things that I've been trying to communicate here. It's not so much that I can't accept dying or even having my ass kicked over and over again. What I can't accept is the fact that the game's unlock system rewards time spent in the game before it rewards talent and skill.

Assume that EliteN00bkill4h is a bot with certain base attributes defining his skills within the game. Assume also that we can clone and replicate EliteN00bkill4h to create a second bot with equal skill but then outfit him with unlocked perks and equipment that are statistically superior to the base equipment load outs (because EliteN00bkill4hClone has been playing the game longer). If we then run a simulation of say, 1000 combat trials around one capture point; whether through kills or holding the point longest, which of the two will have accumulated the most wins? More importantly, which of the two will have accumulated the most exp. points toward the purchase of additional and yet more powerful upgrades?

I can't be in the minority of people who see this as a problem.

[mred]

Tried it with mouse and keyboard yesterday. I sucked, though will try to mess with mouse sensitivity and see what happens.

Taking back out my controller, i said, "screw it, assault marines are better at melee anyway" and started playing as assault marines. i actually started to rack up points, and went from level 9 to level 12 in the space of a couple of hours (yes, i know, i'm not some elite player), which was great progress for me.

[cpugeek13]

As much as I dislike unlocks, I think it a good thing overall for the game community. See, if everything was unlocked from the get go, some people would play multiplayer for an hour, get bored, then never touch it again. Having unlocks will help to keep a decent playerbase (at least for the first few months). As for new people learning the ropes, like any other shooter (or online game for that matter) you're going to get killed a lot before you know what you're doing. As easy as it is to blame unlocks for your loses, it is probably due to you just not having a good feel for the ebb and flow of the game yet. I'm at level 11 after a day and a half of playing (not constantly, lol), and I never felt like I was in a rut based on my gear.

[Lamps]

I think I encountered a bug where it leveled me from 20 to 23 in under a minute during a game. I did get a kill streak of 7 or 8, and there were lots of pop-up messages of whatever. But it was weird since all other levels level/leveled normally.

[Shuma]

Challenge unlocks give bonus xp, so if you gained a lot of them at once it makes sense.

[Uncle Benny]

Definitely a need for matchmaking based on level. When I'm a 16th-level ASM (Poweraxe & Plasma Pistol, Combat Stims, Blast-Off perk [enemy takes dmg when jumping], and Impenetrable perk [ranged dmg reduction]), and a 37th-level Raptor with a Daemon Maul (Thunder Hammer) can take my 3 plasma pistol shots, combat-stimmed jump/slam, swipes with Power Axe, Blast-Off and slam, and a few more swipes, then hit me once, and I'm dead? Now, a single-digit-level character is in that game, how much fun are they having!
Seriously, bogus to throw so many different skill/experience levels together. Not whining, I've sniped/mangled/slaughtered my fair share of <10th-level folks, but that doesn't make it any better.

Lamps:
Looking at those experience levels, and depending on your loadout (and loadout history), that actually sounds pretty legit. Probably just happened to hit several bonuses at once, and popped you up a bit.
[Edit]
Challenge unlocks give bonus xp, so if you gained a lot of them at once it makes sense. Damned ninja...

[Caeltos]

That reminds me, has anyone managed to get grudge kills? I haven't gotten a single one, how the hell am i supposed to kill the same guy 5 times in a single match?
Yeah, I've got the full set of hate armor and almost the DESTROY THE WEAK achievement. It's like 99.99%. WHY WONT U WORK MP ?? :(

I'd recommend really being agressive and constantly be on the move. Get a Bolter with Kraken Rounds and Improved Accuracy and you can be more flexible in your playstyle which can suit to whichever situation needed.

[Gorb]

@davisbe: if you have a perk for ranged damage resistance, and you come up against an Assault Marine with the Thunderhammer (/Daemon Maul) who may even have the (bugged) one-hit-kill perk . . . that's meant to be an uphill fight for you. Perhaps if you had different perks, it would've gone differently.

The thing about this game is that when people get killed by someone of a higher level, they immediately blame the higher level instead of perhaps comparing their weapon and perk loadout against their opponent's. And while the opponent's perks are probably gained at a higher level, that doesn't excuse the possibility that you simply might be geared to take down another type of target, and the opponent might be geared to take out targets like yourself.

They have to get kills as well, ya know :)

[Lamps]

Also, anyone know how the balance system is set up? Is it just based on level or is there a "hidden" rating or anything? Like all other games it's extremely rarely balanced, 9 out of 10 games one team just completely destroys the other.

[Mirage Knight]

It's not so much that I can't accept dying or even having my ass kicked over and over again. What I can't accept is the fact that the game's unlock system rewards time spent in the game before it rewards talent and skill.

This.


but having to unlock what should be an essential aspect of the game seems a bit batty nuggets!

And this.


Definitely a need for matchmaking based on level. When I'm a 16th-level ASM (Poweraxe & Plasma Pistol, Combat Stims, Blast-Off perk [enemy takes dmg when jumping], and Impenetrable perk [ranged dmg reduction]), and a 37th-level Raptor with a Daemon Maul (Thunder Hammer) can take my 3 plasma pistol shots, combat-stimmed jump/slam, swipes with Power Axe, Blast-Off and slam, and a few more swipes, then hit me once, and I'm dead? Now, a single-digit-level character is in that game, how much fun are they having! Seriously, bogus to throw so many different skill/experience levels together. Not whining, I've sniped/mangled/slaughtered my fair share of <10th-level folks, but that doesn't make it any better.

And that I think helps conclude the backing up of my points. Also, nice post there Pseudonymn. I think you articulated yourself pretty well in prior posts as well - I merely said it a bit differently.

[Misiok]

Oh please. While its true that my first few levels I spent mostly dying than not, the I still managed to hold my own once I started to grasp the mechanics and how to do stuff. That said, I could easily kill people with my lvl1 bolt pistol and chainsword without that much of a trouble. Of course, it all comes to lag...

[Sabulum]

The issue is low level people. After that, it comes down to skill, considering most of the perk unlocks after that are situational and weapon unlocks (not tied to levels) become more important. At level 16, you have more than enough to compete fairly. Maul isn't a straight upgrade of chainsword, and stims are pretty shitty. A level 16 with that loadout will maul tacticals and devs, and if he's good can beat the Raptor easily as long as he isn't running headlong into melee with him.

[Pseudonymn]

I honestly fail to see why some people here refuse to acknowledge that the manner in which this game rewards time spent playing this game is inherently unfair. That it gives high level avatars perks that make them even more difficult to kill or do more DPS in combat and then pits them against new players is inherently unfair.

To draw from my experiences playing World of Warcrack (a bad habit that I managed to go cold turkey on many moons ago), there's a reason for the so-called "lowbie" or uncontested zones, which are not flagged for PvP. It's to prevent the very sorts of abuses we're seeing here where time spent playing the game equals better equipment acquired and/or higher CHARACTER strength and durability attained in relation those of lower levels. Notice the emphasis on the word "character", since none of those things do anything to improve the latent sills of the actual player wielding them. They just harden puppet they're manipulating.

Who here can honestly argue that a PvP encounter between a T3 epic loot-equipped level 70 (or whatever it is now) attacking a level 5 lowbie is an even remotely fair contest?

Even if you took two veteran players and the lowbie toon for one of them is merely a mule character or experimenting with a new build, it's still a totally lopsided encounter. Setting aside enhancements acquired through character levels like incremental increases to HP, combat strength, defenses, etc., since they don't apply to this game, it's still inherently unfair by virtue of the equipment used between them alone. The correlation between that and WH40K:SM's perks and weapon unlocks should be obvious.

It occurs to me that the only people who do not have a problem with this are those who are most directly benefiting from it.

[Misiok]

But that's the difference! World of Warcraft, as every other MMO out there, has very little true skill involved when PVPing that doesn't need you to have uber godlike 3 month grinded items and lvl 9999 character to compete. All you need to know is how to use what you have, but in the end you still stand (mostly) in a single spot and press hotkeys. Whereas in Space Marine it's completely different. As long as it doesn't lag, you have to evade, aim, shoot, evade, judge distances, have keen observations and watchout for your opponents backup. You can headshot a guy with the puny bolt pistol if you can aim for God's sake. 1v1 it all comes down to who can play better, and has a bit more luck, not equipment, which just gives you more playstyles.

[Pseudonymn]

I just knew that someone would focus on the limitations of using a game like WoW as an example rather than focus on the heart of the argument.

Each game, within the boundries of their seperate mechanics, still have one thing at their core to consider:

FAIR PLAY.

Please try to confine your responses to that.

[Misiok]

It's fair, because you can take their loadout if you die, so you can have even chances despite the level and equipment difference. What's left is your skill and the way you'll use what you've 'copied'.
And now you can be succesful and get a killstreak, with which you can unlock your stuff faster and this argument then becomes obsolete.
Or you can keep dying and keep copying his loadout and try to win on even grounds.

[Pseudonymn]

Yeah, great, lowbies can copy the loadout of their killer for the sum duration of exactly one spawn. That sure is all the time a person should need to learn the nuances of that load out, right? Cool story, bro!

This is not an adequate means of leveling the playingfield.

[Misiok]

You know, it would be understandable if the game had Call of Duty Black Ops weapon list. Most of the weapons are pretty much the same, shooty types. All you need to do is to know how to aim.

Giving them full access to the armory wouldn't help their chances, as they would be overwhelmed by the sheer choice and still would not know how to use it all. Having it like it is this way, allows them to get accustomed to their weapons, to know them, master them and then if they performed good (as in, played well, scored well etc) they get a new weapon to play with, to learn it and etc.

The only thing that needs learning are the classes. And you unlock them during the first 2-4 games, so yeah, poor newbies wasting whole 10 minutes of their lives.

You're also forgetting that this game is new. Meaning there's lots of new players. Just because some people from the US/Australia/whichever country got the game first are now levels 41 or so doesn't mean you'll be facing them while you play in Europe. If you're from the US and have a lvl 1 char while the rest of your country is lvl 41, then that's your problem for being bad at the game, you had your chance to level up with the folk.
Now, I'm from Europe, I got the game 1 day ago. I played for 1 day straight. I am level 30 now. And guess what. When I started, the biggest level I saw was lvl 10, and obviously that's not the highest level in the game, meaning they were pretty limited in their choices too. Now I'm playing as lvl 30 with lots of lvl 1-15's, the people, who are still getting the game and who are new to it, meaning they can level with lots of other new people on even grounds, and some 'old' timers. And that's gonna last for a week or two, or even three. If after this time you're still a low level, then you just failed at the game. Not even unlocking your full armory will help you, as there will be people (if the game will live that long, considering it's...ugh, lags) who will be much better than you, and even equipment won't mean jack now.

It's similar to MMO's. When they open a new server, there's an influx of fresh low level chars. If you level with them, you'll be on even grounds, if you slack off, you'll be a lowbie and behind the main crowd.

[Pseudonymn]

If you're from the US and have a lvl 1 char while the rest of your country is lvl 41, then that's your problem for being bad at the game, you had your chance to level up with the folk. Implying that everyone who plays this game is an early adopter. I stopped reading after this comment. Seriously. It's not worth continuing this discussion with you with logic like that.

Edit - This jumped out at me though:

I played for 1 day straightGood for you. Glad you're able to put that much spare time together. We should all be just like you. I'm so not being sarcastic here. Really.

[Misiok]

Obviously its you who must be right in this discussion. Since you didn't bother to read my comment, let me rephrase. There's a steady influx of new players, becase the game is new, obviously. Not everyone is an early adopter - good, great. Then how do they want to be good at the game against people who managed to master it by putting the time and effort? You can't just pop into MP, everything unlocked or not and expect to win. Of course then you'd maybe complain about how it's unfair for newbs with pro's.

I said I played for one day straight AND got to level 30 ALREADY. What I meant by that was that you don't need that much time to unlock everything. If you're a casual player then it won't matter to you anyway since you won't delve deep into mechanics and balance and the thing you'll want will be to just pop a few heads and that's it.

[konfeta]

That reminds me, has anyone managed to get grudge kills? I haven't gotten a single one, how the hell am i supposed to kill the same guy 5 times in a single match?

Play a Plasma Devastator.

[Mirage Knight]

It occurs to me that the only people who do not have a problem with this are those who are most directly benefiting from it.

Are you surprised by this? Because I'm not. Too many people are incapable or unwillingly to look at the situation from another point of view to see how potentially broken and abused the system, because - as you said - the system benefits them. One thing's for sure: The games I host have perks turned off in the interest of having games that are dependent on skill. I challenge the rest of you to do the same...or would it be too difficult to give up your perks and rely on skill?

I swear the air is just ripe with self-righteous elitism at the moment...

Pseudonymn : Feel free to reach me on Steam. I'll happily join you in some perk-free games of SM :)

[Pseudonymn]

Honestly, I'm not surprised at all. A few elements of this discussion played out just as I thought they would, in fact. The comment you quoted above was made rhetorically. PM me you're Steam ID and we'll have a go some time soon. I'm trying to troubleshoot an audio stuttering problem that has been annoying the pants of me, starting from as far back as the demo.

[Sabulum]

You started off maligning people who enjoy the game as being essentially losers who play 8 hours a day. What course did you expect the conversation to take?

I see Mirage Knight has played 32 hours. I've played 30. I'm level 35 or so right now, which I've found to have put me around 20 hours, counting the campaign, past the point where I could compete and find a playstyle to suit my tastes. I don't know what Mirage Knight's experience has been playing MP, but skill has been the dominant factor in every MP game I've played in, except for when lag is involved. I'm getting pretty respectable kill-death ratios, and I'm still routinely killed by chainsword raptors and tactical readout bolters.

Casual players, who haven't really played MP before, are probably going to have a hard time starting out in multiplayer months down the road. But right now, when there's plenty of people who are learning the game and new people joining all the time, there's no excuse except one for why someone is consistently losing.

[mocaorca]

It does bother me some how new games are all relying on unlocks to get people to play. I don't like the weapon pickup system of old games, the new load-out systems are way better in my opinion. But having jumped into games several months after release, you can compete with the higher level players because like you said, high levels are rewarded for time spent, not skill level. And in general, if your skill level is good enough, you'll level quickly, particularly in a game like this where you are rewarded for capturing points, killstreaks, avenger kills, kill stealing (savior kills), and just about every other thing you can think of including dying. But at the same time, even though I've been playing shooters my whole life, since Doom and Wolfenstein, this game was a little different, enough to be frustrating at first. Just give it a little time. And like a lot of people have been saying, in any game, someone who has played more will have advantages, knowing maps, knowing how to deal with certain situations, and these people are likely to be higher level too, but that doesn't mean they're playing better than you just because they have better gear.

[Mirage Knight]

I see Mirage Knight has played 32 hours. I've played 30. I'm level 35 or so right now, which I've found to have put me around 20 hours, counting the campaign, past the point where I could compete and find a playstyle to suit my tastes. I don't know what Mirage Knight's experience has been playing MP, but skill has been the dominant factor in every MP game I've played in, except for when lag is involved. I'm getting pretty respectable kill-death ratios, and I'm still routinely killed by chainsword raptors and tactical readout bolters.

Yes my experience has been a bit different. I've been involved in a number of Seize Ground games where most of my team mates were completely uncoordinated and / or new to the game and we wound up being pitted against a team with more higher level players with a better sense of teamwork and coordination. Imagine how well those games went and how they affected my score. We're talking about very disparate end game scores and me dying alot because no one bothered to support me and I got ganged up on and no amount of skill or perks would have helped. Hence the reason why I'm only Level 30.

It strikes me that quite a few of these perks are "force multipliers" as it were that shift the balance of fights. As an example let's look at the Melta and Storm Bolter perks: Two of them affect your reload time substantially, allowing you to kill someone faster than normal. A regular Melta Gun is balanced against a Bolter more or less, but the perk shifts the balance more in favour of the Melta gun. Not only that, but your Melta gun is now better than someone else's. Say I have the Melta perk and a Melta gun. I face off against another player of a lower level who doesn't have that perk but has a Melta gun as well. We both fire at the same time and hit each other but we're at ranges where the shots only injure us. Because of my perk, I can fire again before he can and I subsequently kill him. I won that fight because I had an unfair advantage that had little if anything to do with my skill at using a Melta gun. My opponent screams "That's bullshit!" (I wonder why...) and I respond "Too bad, I have a perk that gives me a shorter cooldown because I've played this game and used this weapon more than you." "Copy my loadout (which only works for one round) and try and kill me again." He does so and then gets sniped by a Level 35 Devastator with a Lascannon from half across the map because he has a perk that amplifies his ability to spot opponents and kill them. Fat lot of good copying my loadout did him.

And some perks are just flat out OP. You know, the one hit and you're dead perks.

For the love of [insert deity or pantheon of choice here] people, step outside your limited points of view and see this situation from the eyes of a non-w40K fan whose just getting into this game and is expecting a classed-based shooter that emphasizes team play and doesn't have the time to grind like some of us here can.

I'm starting to really detest this trend in games to be more MMO-like - specifically, more like World of Warcrack. There are plenty of old FPS games out there that lack this leveling mechanic: They're simpler but pretty well balanced and fun to play and don't require hours of grinding to order to compete decently with other players. You just add skill and map awareness and done. I just wish Space Marine was more like that in the interests of fairness.

[Sabulum]

The leveling mechanic is a gimmick to keep casual players in, if anything. I don't much care for unlocks - I put untold hours into DoW2 to prove that much to myself. Space Marine MP is fun enough that I feel the same way.

The more I think about the perk system, the more ambivalent I get. People new to any genre or game are going to get slaughtered, especially in FPS where there's traditionally no skill or rank based matchmaking. The way I see it, perks either give people an incentive to keep player so they can "compete" fairly in their minds, or it allows them to blame something else besides their own skill while they get better. I don't think its fair to harp on the perk system for creating uneven gameplay when the same thing happens in just about any MP game that I can think of. Counter-strike, Quake, Unreal are all equally unforgiving, if not more so, than SM in their core mechanics. In counter-strike, perhaps the paragon of FPS, performance in the actual game can influence how well a team does. Getting enough kills round 1 to buy a galil or AK or something gives a player an advantage that I'd argue trumps the perks in Space Marine.

Even with all that said, Battlefield Bad Company 2 has a slightly different ranked unlock system, and I jumped into that just fine months after it came out when it was on sale. In fact, what held me back early on in that game was more the global K-D ratio that I didn't want to ruin. Space Marine doesn't have that, except for annihilation and only for friends that I can tell. Seize ground is a fun MP game where it really doesn't matter what your performance is because it has no impact on any meaningful statistic.

And to add to mocaorca's point, by the time you add skill and map awareness to the game, a player is already high enough to compete "fairly" with his unlocks. We're seeing some BS stuff that's distorting people's perception of the fairness of the rank system. Plasma cannon, lascannon, one-hit kill melee weapons, burst stalker, and so on are all common "balance" complaints that make the rank system more unfair that it really is.

[Hirmetrium]

I've beaten a shed load of players whom were in their late 20's and 30's just fine as a level 8. It is not about unlocks. You get the stalker boltgun, one of the best weapons in the game, within your first few levels. Weapon unlocks are quite fun in this game, because they add a lot of flavour - they don't however make you necessarily better.

BRINK was a different case. Key class skills were locked out from the get go. In Space Marine, key class skills are already given to you as perks when you start - with other options available to unlock later. Keyword - OPTIONS. Imagine if the assault marine couldn't jump until you got a perk at level 20. That is what BRINK is like. Space Marine is not.

I have not seen a single perk which significantly changes the game experience to the point that it is broken. For what they are, they are remarkably well balanced. I'll say that some of them might do more than others, but there's not a single overpowered or broken perk in the game. Most weapons don't even need perks to be better. You can run around a map with a knife and pistol and get killstreaks in most of the games I've played, and they are available at level 1.

MirageKnight - its no different to the P90 spray and pray in COD:MW1, which nobody else got hold of until later levels. But chances are, that guy with the melta gun you were beating? He had a teleport beacon, his team mate appeared next to him and they shot the shit out of you. The game is balanced from a different perspective - one where there are perks which give people different advantages in different situations. Yes, you have unlocked a perk which made your favourite weapon better - but the guy might of had two guns and an extra perk instead because he customized and chose his own loadout.

[Demonic Spoon]

The second perk at 15 provides a sizeable advantage. I will not say that 'grind to win' mechanics are totally absent from the game


..but not THAT big of an advantage. If you're getting your face rolled every game, it's probably not because you're underleveled.

[Sinogrim]

Well, the only unlocks I care for are the Armour unlocks. I just love customizing my space marine. Shame you can't import custom badges though :(.

[Hirmetrium]

I will not say that 'grind to win' mechanics are totally absent from the game No I wouldn't either. But people are making it into far too bigger deal. Hell, thats why copy loadout is in the game - if somebody is lascannoning you from across the map at level 1, copy their loadout and get a 6x or 8x killstreak like I did my first couple of games. Copy loadout makes its considerably less painful, despite its shortfalls.

Skill, such as aiming and map awareness, are still kings of space marine. Which makes the game very, very enjoyable and playable compared to others.

Armour unlocks are purely cosmetic. At the risk of being a douchebag moderator, I'm going to point to Dawn of War 2 and suggest you stop complaining on the forums and play more ;) You don't earn bionic arms sitting in meditation. You get them by fighting Nightbringers in caves with your flamer.

[Misiok]

Also, the weapon perks are good in this way that, once you unlock a certain weapon, and start using it, you get 'better' with it. Not only in real life, but in the game as well. Think of it as the weapon evolution thing that was suppossed to be in SP :P I mean, if you like the Storm Bolter, you not only get better in using it (because you get used to it) but also get persk for continuing to use it. Instead of getting random perks and weapons that are not suiting your playstyle or helping you with your weapon.

[Mhgges]

can someone tell my how i am supposed get a multi kill with a meltagun

[konfeta]

Throw a grenade, then shoot and pray. The perk for it is worthless anyway, more ammo.

[Mirage Knight]

can someone tell my how i am supposed get a multi kill with a meltagun

If you run into a group of enemies that are close together, you can pull it off. Fire once, manuever as needed, and fire again. Keep the group in your sights, stay close and move, dodge as need be. It's tricky but not impossible to do. I love sneaking up behind opponents heading for a control point with my perked Meltagun :)

[Arbit]

I feel that everyone should get the two perks perk right away. Otherwise, you can overcome higher level players by picking your battles and choosing the right class. If you're fighting someone that has TWO powerful high level perks and you're stuck with one from the rather meagre selection of default perks, sometimes you are pretty f'ed even if you counter-pick his loadout and class.

Be that as it may, there really is no reason to lock stuff up other than to satisfy peoples' unlock-o-philia. Aaaand you know sometimes you fire up some shooter deathmatch and an hour later you're like "WTF HAVE I ACCOMPLISHED IN THE PAST HOUR"... well now you can point at your xp bar and say "SOMETHING: ACCOMPLISHED."