No-Scope Lascannon Headshots

[Jaimas]

I see this a lot, so I'll bring them both up here.

The Lascannon can critically headshot when not scoped. For the uninitiated, this is a one-shot kill. It also retains its 100% accuracy when not scoped, and has the same power it does when scoped. What this means is that increasingly, I've been seeing players running around using non-scoped Lascannons in much the same way as the Quake 3 Railgun.

This is the anti-lulz. It needs a good fix that doesn't overnerf the damned thing.

[Pocktio]

Yeah because noscoping is seriously easy.

Or you could just roll. Whenever I engage a lasdev I constantly roll. Even if it takes you 4-5 rolls you still get him while he misses.

[Sinogrim]

I think I haven't even been killed 20 times by a lascannon in all my games together. Just keep moving when you see one and try not to fight him in a straight up firefight ;).

[konfeta]

I am 100% certain the gun loses its pinpoint accuracy when no-scoping. Are you sure the guys are not just quickscoping?

[Misiok]

It's easy to say 'just roll' when you're an assault hiting a las cannon dev from behind and suddenly you're dead because he managed to headshot you from point blank range whilst being hit by you.

[Jaimas]

Or in my case, a Tactical facing down some Lascannoning dick with the recharge booster, allowing him to spam the goddamned thing and kill you with a pair of body shots.'

Also noscope sniping works. You just need a piece of tape or a dry-erase marker.

[Shuma]

I think i've only been killed once or twice by a devastator shooting his lascannon from the hip, just roll around, or jump, but it is harder to dodge with the Assault Marine, throw grenades and shoot them before going in for the kill,.

[KDR_11k]

Or you could just roll. Whenever I engage a lasdev I constantly roll. Even if it takes you 4-5 rolls you still get him while he misses.

Only tacs can roll, the others keep their head on a more predictable trajectory.

[Mirage Knight]

Or in my case, a Tactical facing down some Lascannoning dick with the recharge booster, allowing him to spam the goddamned thing and kill you with a pair of body shots.'

So...looks like some perks are working as some of us predicted. And by that I mean making certain weapons imbalanced and overpowered. Perfectly fair.

[KDR_11k]

I believe the recharge booster only lets him reload faster, not actually shoot faster.

[Jaimas]

I believe the recharge booster only lets him reload faster, not actually shoot faster.

Incorrect. It nearly doubles the firing rate.

[ImmortalChaos]

The lascannon is my least favorite weapon in the game right now... it feels lame to die by it and it's boring to use it
Anyways, I basically agree on that the problem with the lascannon lies in how absurdly useful it can be even at close range. I'd bet I have just as many long range lascannon kills as I do shotgunning assault players who think they have more close range damage potential than I do. It functions too well outside of its intended use.


My personal suggestion(s) to balance the thing:

Make the lascannon incapable of hip firing. You must zoom to shoot.


Alternately, significantly increase the time between shots... encourage getting headshots and gibbing people, rather than just blasting them in the chest, close range or far.

[Chad Ghostal]

That thing is hard as hell hit anyone out of zoom, unless it's point blank, let alone a headshot. For devastators, I probably get the least amount of kills on that weapon. It's already the slowest firing weapon out of the bunch and point blank I can kill you just as fast with insta-gib PlasmaCannon, or Near Insta-gib heavy bolter. Not to mention it doesn't even come with an aiming reticle. There is probably 5 weapons that can instant kill you in this game.

[Codex]

Not to mention it doesn't even come with an aiming reticle.

Which is so irrelevant if it is 100% accurate no scoped. Stick tape or highlight your screen where the reticule should be, sorted.

[ImmortalChaos]

Which is so irrelevant if it is 100% accurate no scoped. Stick tape or highlight your screen where the reticule should be, sorted.

Exactly. Not providing a reticule is a terrible way to balance things. It's far too easy to get around. I don't like the idea of unzoomed shots firing in random directions either, hence my suggestion force players to aim to shoot.

[Chad Ghostal]

How do you know whats middle when there's no reticle? There's no point of reference other than guessing. Unless someone has a video clearly showing how easy this is, I call it you're either unlucky or just standing still and got shot. If it was this easy, everyone would be doing it, as of now there is zero proof.

[Misiok]

Um, is that a real question Chad ? Pick any class that has a reticule in the middle and put a sticker on your monitor/screen where the dot is or hell, even use the lasgun, zoom in and put it where it aims. There, there you have your middle.

[Codex]

How do you know whats middle when there's no reticle? There's no point of reference other than guessing. Unless someone has a video clearly showing how easy this is, I call it you're either unlucky or just standing still and got shot. If it was this easy, everyone would be doing it, as of now there is zero proof.

...

I've been doing as Misiok's been saying since Counterstrike:Source. I started an as FPS player, and we were encouraged by our clan to put a piece of blue-tack/ highlighter on the centre, even for weapons like the AWP where it's not 100% accurate no-scoped, just so we can do it in emergency situations/ certain exploitable instances when no scoping is easy. So for a weapon which is 100% accurate no scoped... And yeah using any weapon other than a sniper rifle will give you a reticule as a reference point.

So yeah, maybe you should try it and see what results you get.

[Chad Ghostal]

Is that a serious response. You act like the game is static, and all the reticles are the same, and the enemies never move. I can't believe I'm even responding to this.

[Misiok]

I can't believe you think the middle of the screen changes depending on the weapon you use.

[Chad Ghostal]

Well one of you put your theory to the test record a video showing how easy this is, and how wrong I am. I can shoot folks with no scope if they're close enough, but headshots, I call BS.

[Codex]

I'm assuming that the lascannon is not a projectile weapon i.e. where you shoot it hits, like any gun in counter strike. If it's 100% accurate, then no scoping is easy if you know where the centre is. If people can do it in Counterstrike, with a weapon that is not 100% accurate, why not here?

At the very least there is no disadvantage putting a mark of where centre is on the screen so you can no scope when the situation calls for it (ASM up in your face for example). So I'd recommend it.

[Ap0k]

Well one of you put your theory to the test record a video showing how easy this is, and how wrong I am.
Think about what you're saying and then think about the fact that the exact centre of the screen is in the same place no matter what weapon you use. Crosshairs don't magically move around to different points on your screen depending on what weapon you're using.

The only factor in hitting or missing is whether there is a hidden accuracy modifier depending on whether the weapon is scoped or not.

[Misiok]

Let's see Chad, random google search about 'how to no scope' shows this http://www.giantbomb.com/no-scope/92-998/ among other things. Really now?

[Chad Ghostal]

If any of you tried the lascannon, the weapon jerks up each time you shoot, with no reticle. So for every shot you would have to get the gun with no reticle back to this middle you're guessing it would be, and then try and shoot a tiny moving head. Comparing how weapons act in counter strike to weapons in this game is retarded. If this was the Dow2 balance forum, this thread would of been locked already, because there is zero proof provided so far.

[Misiok]

I'm pushing this because of the
So for every shot you would have to get the gun with no reticle back to this middle you're guessing it would be. As if creating your own makeshift reticule is hard enough... Besides, with enough practice, pooping small moving heads is doable. Just look at all the crazy sniping noscope/quick scope movies that are all around youtube.

[Chad Ghostal]

Of different games, is there a video of people doing this space marine? Only no scope video I could find was a Stalker Bolter which has a reticle when not scoped in.

[Ap0k]

I don't think you understand how moving pictures on video screens works Chad.

[Chad Ghostal]

I don't think you understand when presenting an argument for things to get changed, you need proof.

[Codex]

If any of you tried the lascannon, the weapon jerks up each time you shoot, with no reticle. So for every shot you would have to get the gun with no reticle back to this middle you're guessing it would be, and then try and shoot a tiny moving head. Comparing how weapons act in counter strike to weapons in this game is retarded. If this was the Dow2 balance forum, this thread would of been locked already, because there is zero proof provided so far.

The fact of the matter is I don't have this game yet. The point is, I'm assuming that information given in the past is correct, that is that this weapon is 100% accurate no scoped. If that is the case, it is more than just possible to pull off, just youtube quickscoping/ no scoping vids. (quick scoping is the technique where people quickly scope and fire to gain the advantage of the scoped accuracy while not actually using the scope to aim at all i.e. using a mark on their screen to aim and quick scope fire). Considering the number of times I've heard HEADSHOT quake sounds, I know this is more than possible. People jump and strafe at the same time, crouching, even bunny hopping for crying out loud; it might not be easy to shoot moving targets but in the end it's no harder than shooting a moving target while scoped, since the no scope is 100% accurate.

The reason I'm comparing it to weapons in Counterstrike is because that's what my experience is. I don't see how the comparison is retarded, unless you want to enlighten me.

[Chad Ghostal]

Because not all weapons act the same? You don't have the game? Nobody in this thread has a shred of proof. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying until someone has actual proof it's just speculation. Thats not how balance works in any game ever.

[Codex]

No, I don't have the game, but I understand how no scoping works. I'm just fleshing out some other person's point on their behalf.

[Snakeb1te]

I've tried noscoping around the map and let me tell you, against learned players is not easy at all, in fact its next to impossible seeing as there's no crossair. I think this is a non-issue.

[Chad Ghostal]

I apologize codex for the last comment, was a bit too harsh on my part. All guns in this game are 100% accurate per the first bullet, except plasma weapons and guns that arc. There is no trailing of the bullet, only when you fire in burst does the recoil change your shot. There are lots of weapons in this game that kills you in 1 shot. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

[Codex]

That's fine. I think you should've just said from the outset that you didn't like the speculation with regards to balance, which is more than a fair point. What I didn't understand was your initial contesting of being able to mark on your screen where the reticule should be i.e. the centre of the screen. It may not be easy to no scope people when they're jumping all over your screen, it may not even be an effective strategy, I just was pointing out no scoping exists and that anybody can try to do it with a lascannon having marked the centre of their computer screen.

[Ap0k]

Video incoming in about 15-20 minutes, depending on how much my connection decides to suck.

I'm not arguing anything to do with no-scoping, I'm pointing out that your claims that you can't shoot accurately without scoping are wrong, because it's a simple as putting a mark on your screen representing where the centre of the crosshair should be.

[Misiok]

Aw Ap0k, I was just searching for someone to help me lab it, damn you :P

[Chad Ghostal]

With the lascannon yes I doubt it in a multiplayer setting. With weapons like the plasma gun, and stalker-bolter and bolter, I agree you can no scope with those. Apok be sure the video you're making is showing you in a live match setting with random people getting headshots with no scope via a lascannon, not edited. Against a sitting target, anyone can dial that down.

No labing it, we're talking a genuine multiplayer match, not you and a buddy against one another setting up the perfect shot. What you're saying is that it's possible in multiplayer matches. If you can't show it in a multiplayer match, then you're lying.

I want to see actual matches with this no scope headshots. Not you and your buddies in a private game trying to prove a point.

[Ap0k]

The video does the only thing it has to do. Prove my point that you don't need a crosshair to aim at something. I don't care if people can no-scope across a map accurately, that's nothing to do with the point I'm trying to get into your head.

[Codex]

I think what Apok's trying to disprove is this:


How do you know whats middle when there's no reticle? There's no point of reference other than guessing. Unless someone has a video clearly showing how easy this is, I call it you're either unlucky or just standing still and got shot. If it was this easy, everyone would be doing it, as of now there is zero proof.

I mean, Apok even wrote a disclaimer saying that this video has nothing to do with no scoping and everything to do with the bolded part of that quote.

[ImmortalChaos]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2mo9itt.jpg

Is that so hard to understand? People have been hitting headshots with no in game indication of where the bullets will go for years.

[Chad Ghostal]

I can do that just by dialing it in. The point of the thread is the OP stating that people are doing this in live multiplayer matches. I can do that with a stalker bolter if you want to see no scope headshots, but lascannon no scopes in live matches. I'm usually just luck when it happens.

[Codex]

Then where did that sentence of "How do you know where's middle" come from? Fair enough to your last post, it can all be said to be speculation, but this is decidedly different from your first post.

[ImmortalChaos]

Put a mark on your screen and it's not luck anymore. Nothing stops you from doing it in multiplayer. How much more obvious do we have to make it?

[Chad Ghostal]

The point of the thread was that in live multiplayer setting no scope headshots with the lascannon is too easy. I'm saying it's not, and that because there is no reticle, doing it is not easy, to the point where it's reliable. My point still stands, no one has proof of them doing no scope headshots in live multiplayer settings with consistency.

[Ap0k]

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPKZuhuyWao)

The jitter from the second set of non-scoped shots, while throwing the crosshair off (due to recoil) doesn't seem to hugely affect the accuracy. I'm fairly sure the beam is still hitting the point I was aimed at when I fired, or at least somewhere reasonably close.

Is it possible to consistently headshot non-scoped when you're dealing with moving targets, online lag, and perhaps a slight accuracy issue at extreme range? Probably not. Could you easily get a bodyshot at mid-range non-scoped? Yes.

Do I really care? No, not really, the point was that you don't need a crosshair to shoot reasonably accurately at something. If you guys think it's a balance issue, then it's up to you. As far as I'm concerned the game is nothing more than a passing attraction while I wait for the real FPS meat of the year, BF3.

[Chad Ghostal]

The wall isn't a live multiplayer game, a player, a moving target or from a distance. And it isn't shooting at you, which throws off your aim every time you get shot. Video didn't show anything. I do give you props for affirming what I've been saying that it's not possible in a live game.

[Carl]

CHad i think your being delibretly dense at this point. When the lascannon or similar pulls up with recoil it makes your veiw tilt up, the actual centre of the screen shifts with the recoil, not the targeting point on your screen. Hell even without this trick i've pulled off some pretty accurrate point blank shots through pure guess work. All the thng really needs is a major damage reduction outside scope mode. I'd say the same for the stalker as despite the bigger scatter that thing is still pretty freaky up close.

[Chad Ghostal]

Carl the thread isn't about point blank, it's about getting no scope headshots while in live mulitplayer game. Anyone can get a point blank shot, the guy is right in front of you. Getting no scope headshots is not point blank. Two different things read the thread again.

[Codex]

I'm saying it's not, and that because there is no reticle, doing it is not easy, to the point where it's reliable.

And our point is that its ease is not an issue of whether there's a reticule or not, since a reticule can be replaced completely by an artificial marking on your screen, added by the player himself. No, it might not be easy to pull off no scoping, and hence not OP, and that is a point worth pursuing. Reasons for this might be that it's just too hard in and of itself to aim for such small moving target.

However, (and I have to stress this since we've been on this point for a while now), granted that shot has 100% accuracy (i.e. it shoots where the reticule ought to be), its ease has nothing to do with its lack of a reticule unless you don't know how to mark your screen or you've chosen not to mark your screen.

[Chad Ghostal]

I did, the OP said folks are running around no scope headshoting people with the lascannon, I said it's impossible to do that with consistency. No one has proof of them doing this in a live multiplayer match, all you doing is giving me an ear beating while having no point to bring other than your anger.

[konfeta]

If I may intervene on this delightful debate...

Why, exactly, is no-scoping (head)shots a problem? The purpose of devastators is to make things that are in front of them very dead in a hurry. The general design of the class is that, if you let them shoot you, you are supposed to die. A Lascannon Devastator is a sniper build, but it is still a Devastator by design of this game's multiplayer. Getting up in their face isn't supposed to guarantee you a victory. Killing them before they get a chance to fire back is.

[Chad Ghostal]

Well it's been two pages of worthless discussion, and until someone shows me this bigfoot video of them getting consistent no scope headshots in a live mulitplayer game. I'm gonna go back to reality and play some multiplayer myself. Good day to you all.

[ImmortalChaos]

Because being incredibly proficient at killing all enemies at any range is the very definition of imbalance?

[konfeta]

You are not going to eliminate high skilled players dominating your face off by introducing useless gimmicks like a no zoom no firing solution. They will just quick-scope. And if you stack enough disadvantages to make shooting the gun at close range utterly worthless, you defeat the purpose of the class.

[Jaimas]

See, I was gonna write a long-winded post, but then Immortal Ninja'd me. :P

The Lascannon can accurately killshot at any range with no risk, regardless if you're zoomed or not. Whilst there's other guns in other games that can do this (such as the Longshot in Gears), these weapons can't do so from the hip and be used to unrealistically noscope headshot an Assault that by all accounts should have forcibly sodomized you with a Thunder Hammer. Admittedly no-scope bodyshots are about 5 times more common, but I've seen no-scope headshots rapid-fire around Point C on Hab Center a few times now, and it's frickin' ridiculous.

Just saying.

[konfeta]

My experience with sniping in TF2 tells me that as long as quick-scoping remains, these players will dominate just as hard by simply chaining those instead of no scopes. I know, I've done it myself on good days, and some of the sniper frag videos are terrifying in that they can do that sort of stuff consistently.

The only nerf I can think off that is even remotely fair is to make the Lascannon a 1 shot, then recharge weapon. Replace the Stabilizer perk with something else; and replace or rebalance the reload perk. It seems that the real problem is that a Devastator can pull of 5 shots in a row while using the Iron Halo and Feel No Pain to become uncharacteristically tanky.

[Zallis]

The recharge perk on the lascannon only changes reload. Firing rate is about 1 shot per second with or without the perk. It's as simple as muttering "One one-thousand, two one-thousand" as you fire. I don't know how anyone could have thought it doubled the firing rate.

As for the issue itself, body shots are fairly easy to obtain even without a piece of crap marking up the monitor, but I agree with Chad in that doing it consistently seems a bit of a stretch. The fact that one could make his/her own crosshairs is entirely different from someone using said crosshairs to consistently score headshots.

[Carl]

Knfeta, as immortal has allready explained the issue here is that the Lasscannon is an incredibly efficent sniper weapon. Aside from Dev's with certian perks it's a maximum of 2 shots to kill, 1 if you get a headshot. And it can do this clear across a map. They're the most efficent long and mid range killers in the game. Let them have this kind of close range power as well and nothing this side of a Meltagun + mastercrafted grenade tac is going to touch them. If your that worried about quickscoping, make it's damage inside a certian range be reduced.

[konfeta]

I am not a fan of any solution that hamstrings the Devastator's ability to punish an idiot for trying to take on it face first. That's the whole point of the class, that engaging it from the front is an uphill battle. The more I think about it, the more the issue seems to be here is that a Devastator can chain 5 shots in short succession. I suggest starting with lowering shots per clip and seeing where that leads before anything as drastic as making it food for anything that can get into the range to shoot it.

[Carl]

Konfeta, do you actually know anything about balance? I seem to rember you where pretty sound over on the DoW forum section but your just being silly here. The Las Dev is a long and mid range mincing machine. SOMTHING has to give for that. To expect them to even be acceptable at close range with the lascannon is too much. Anything besides another lascannon dev that gets into close range with them and dosen;t stand there doing nothing should mince them in return because they will anihallate anything else at any greater range. The only thing besides a close range attack that even has a chance of taking down a Lasdev ATM is yet another Las Dev doing countersniping.

[konfeta]

he Las Dev is a long and mid range mincing machine. SOMTHING has to give for that.
By reducing shots per clip to 1 or 2 you dramatically reduce its ability to hold an area at close range without removing the ability to punish someone for walking into its arc of fire. So, compared to other Devastators, it has long range weapon at expense of being able to hold the area at close ranges without becoming a joke to counter.

And Las Devs are hilariously easy to take out with Killing Blow ASM or Stalker Tacs with Flash Nades.

[Zallis]

Konfeta, the lascannon only fires 4 shots before it has to reload, not 5. Your'e proposing cutting the clip by 25 to 50%...

Cutting the number of shots per clip would actually make the perk useful, though a hell of a nerf to the regular lascannon.

[konfeta]

Nerf to regular Heavy Weapon is good. Devastators need to have the choice between boosting their gun with offensive perks and stacking defensive perks to be an actual choice.

This goes triply for the Plasma Cannon.

[Sabulum]

Or just require that a dev setup before firing the lascannon.

[konfeta]

Actually, that might work if set up is between 0.2 and 0.5 seconds long, or some small number like that. Though a skilled devastator could still gun down half a team as it enters close-mid range.

[Sabulum]

Or just give it the regular bracing time of the heavy bolter, and swap out the reload speed upgrade with the heavy bolter expertise perk. That's my solution for the plasmacannon too. I don't mind that they're brutal and easy to use, but they should get countered by stuff that can get to them, if they're going to be so long range. If a ASM jumps on a lascannon, I find it completely silly that they can immediately stomp and then one or two shot them easily.

[konfeta]

It would be equally silly if they were "countered" by simply getting close (though Melta Gun and Thunderhammer do that part admirably as it is). It's not exactly a Labor of Heracles, and many of Tac's weapons actually have impressive range.

My only problem with Devastators is that their weapons are frontloaded too much. This translates to the idea that a Devastator loaded up on defensive perks is more than twice as difficult to root out at a marginal loss in firepower/versatility. This is most egregious with the Plasma Cannon, while the Heavy Bolter is modestly-strongly improved with set up perk and Lascannon is modestly improved with reload perk.

[Mirage Knight]

Here's the thing about Devastators and Havocs. TT and fluff-wise, their role is that of fire support - be it for offensive or defensive purposes. While the weapons they're equipped with vary in terms of range and what they're designed to really counter, they do have one thing in common: they require the Devastator or Havoc to set up in order to fire. The marine picks a spot, brings his weapon to bear, and then fires. While he's firing, he can't move and conversely he can't fire while relocating.

Let's also look at the weapons themselves. The Heavy Bolter is a medium range, heavy machine gun designed to chew up light and medium infantry. The Plasma Cannon is a medium range, AOE weapon with a slow rate of fire meant to take out groups of infantry at a time. The Lascannon is a long range armour killer that WILL kill the most heavily armoured soldier in one shot but with a rate of fire slow enough to make it impractical at thinning out a crowd.

With that in mind, I feel ALL of the Dev / Havoc weapons should require "bracing" in order to fire. In addition, the idea of recharging between Lascannon shots is a good one methinks - and the Plasma Cannon really needs looking at. It seems a bit too easy to get killstreaks and multi-kills with the thing due to the combination of fairly high rate of fire, blast radius, and long range.

[Imperial Honour]

The rate of fire does get a bit annoying on some maps, Hab Center especially at times, so at times it would be useful to see the thing have to reload after each shot giving the opposition team a chance to advance. Which would make the recharge rate perk more desirable to take, not that the perk is not useful at the moment but I'd rather take Signum Link over it personally. What rather irks me most, balance issue or not, is when a Lascannon Dev can successfully assault a lightly defended point by himself using the Lascannon and decent no scoping or quick scoping skills. If you cannot knock them out with grenades then in all likelihood anyone worth their salt will probably kill you in one or two shots if you try and fight them, due to the ability to load up up on defensive perks and still be just as dangerous while being more survivable at the same time. One will possibly never completely eliminate the problem but at least if they fired slower, or had to brace, they would have to make each shot count (more so then before) and the gamble would be potentially riskier.

Ideally we want the standard weapon to retain some usefulness while also making the offense perks more desirable so the player has to make some hard choices between things like increase firepower, being better able to survive harmful situations, improved battlefield intel (Signum Link), and increased ammunition stores. Since the lascannon is all about picking off players at range with well aimed shots we have to look at the rate of fire and how many shots it can put down range in a certain time. So without the reload rate perk the Lascannon should make you feel like you need to make each shot count, which still applies with the perk equipped but to a lesser degree as one would expect. While you could still have Lascannon Devs taking on people in one-versus-one situations with a slower rate of shots down range if support was around or the Lascannon Dev missed then he would pay the price of trying to go it alone, and if he takes the perk then he is sacrificing something else he could have equipped (like Iron Halo).

Having the Lascannon Dev need to brace to fire can solve some of the issues people have with the loadout's power but possibly leaves other qualms unresolved. I wouldn't like to see the Lascannon Dev need to brace to fire since not even the Heavy Bolter Dev does, but you could make the Lascannon Dev need to brace if he wants to fire faster or reload faster (if each shot requires a reload) making a braced position desirable above an unbraced position. One could also make the Lascannon Dev need to brace to achieve the optimal accuracy, but I am not sure how that would work out personally in isolation or combined with other tweaks.

[KDR_11k]

The lascannon is incredibly powerful at range, the open area of Hab Center becomes one big death trap thanks to lascannons. It doesn't need to be viable in close combat to be a good weapon (and besides you still have the bolt pistol). Hell, it could probably use a nerf at all ranges since it's likely balanced for the consoles where headshots take a lot of time to line up. Monday Night Combat's Sniper class needed a massive nerf in the transition from the console to the PC simply because the mouse makes aiming so damn fast.

Maybe the lascannon could just require a second or so of standing still before the aim is stabilized enough to shoot accurately.

[Pocari]

The point of the thread was that in live multiplayer setting no scope headshots with the lascannon is too easy. I'm saying it's not, and that because there is no reticle, doing it is not easy, to the point where it's reliable.
Are you goddamned serious, or just a successful troll? People have been repeating to you over and over that you physically mark the center of your screen and then you have a permanent reticle. If you really cannot grasp this concept then you must have some sort of narrow neuropsychological disorder...

[Carl]

TBH i don't find the RoF to be an issue, given how good most people are at dodging, (besides other Dev's), it's not that bad. It's the in close effectivness thats the issue. The idea of a setup is perfect IMHO.

I'd just remiove the magazine mechanic and make it worklike the HB withegard ammo if that was done. Would help hab spire enourmouslly too, highly mobile Las Devs are what allow such heavy duty sniper spam to propogate, they can actually get out of the way of the return fire. If they had to tank it like a HB dev tney'd be much more easly countersnipped, thus keeping each sides snipers busy killing each other.

[konfeta]

Sniper wars is hardly something that should be encouraged.

[Carl]

That map encourages sniper wars, it's just a badly designed map. It wouldn't matter if the lascannon had a 3 secon recharge or a 0.5 second recharge we'd see it. But at least with a setup they'll be dying often enough and focusing on each other more to avoid getting taken out. Giving people a chance to use the middile without becoming sniper food. Which means they can close much more rapidly on the snipers, with obvious benefits.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Requiring bracing for the Plasma Cannon has a drawback, since the weapon acts pretty much like a Quake Rocket Launcher rather than a machine-gun. The only defense a Plasma Cannon Devastator has against airborne targets is being able to move, unlike the heavy Bolter and Lascannon which still has a decent chance of hitting. So a braced Plasma Cannon has no choice but to unbrace and switch to the Bolt Pistol and Stomp. Plus I'm having trouble imagining the Plasma Cannon being an effective weapon in a fire fight if you can't move around between shots to get to cover; the heavy bolter's hail of fire doesn't have that problem, and the lascannon tends to kill fast enough.

Instead, what could be done, is that you can't charge up a shot unless you're braced. To compensate for needing to brace, the charge up time could be greatly reduced, and the speed of the projectile could be improved, since you're basically turning yourself into an immobile vulnerable artillery platform to do it.

Though with the same button being used for both bracing and reloading/venting, I don't see this happening.


As for the Lascannon, which has no such problem, I think bracing could work. Then at least you know the Devastator is immobile and vulnerable when firing, and they took a risk when doing it.

[coldplay]

In the spirit of openness, we tried the Braced Fire mode for all Devastator weapons and it simply felt tacked on and awkward. We're definitely open to balance suggestions, but I can safely say that they will not be getting a Braced Fire mode :)

[Jaimas]

Have you considered adding variance (off-center shot % chance) to reduce the efficacy of no-scoping? It would make sense (lascannons lack iron sights, after all), and would do a lot to stop on-the-go Lascannon punching, whilst still letting them be used up-close.

[coldplay]

This is already happening. If you stand still, the Lascannon is fairly accurate in hip fire (not in aim mode), but they do pay an accuracy penalty for moving in hip fire.

An aimed Lascannon is more accurate than a hip fired one. Up close, of course, it's hard to see that. I think the Lascannon is fairly close, in terms of balance. It has a low rate of fire and let's be honest, it NEEDS to be an acceptable weapon choice. Last week a few people were complaining about the ASM being "over-nerfed" and while I don't think that's true, I do believe the Lascannon teeters on the edge of being good and absolutely awful.

[hellic]

Reduce durability.

[Pseudonymn]

but I can safely say that they will not be getting a Braced Fire modeBOOOOOOOO!! Tacked on? Pardon me, but that reason for not keeping that card on the table feels tacked on; it can be said of any solution that you go with. It hardly sounds like an objective approach to a solution. This is the one that happens to make the most intuitive sense. Common now, we're talking about a massive weapon capable of more raw DPS output at all ranges than any class in the game. They need to pay for it some how with some sort of upfront risk or it just gets abused.

[Codex]

Just to clarify: is there no accuracy penalty for moving/jumping while scoped?

[Ramrod]

There is no jumping in the game. The little Devastator hop immediately descopes you.

[Codex]

Thanks.

[Carl]

@Pseudonymn: No need to be insulting.

That said i have to agree that balancing Plas and Las Devs without a setup is going to be nigh impossibble. Their whole balance issue is their raw mobility, (in 2 diffrent aspects).

A Las Dev can track a target very rapidly, in a way a HB Dev cannot, the tracking speed reduction being setup forces on HB devs makes it harder tio track an evading target, especially if they get right i your face and means if flanked you take that much longer to bring your weaponry to bear. The ability of a las dev to turn to face flanking and track an evading target, even at close range, with the fluidity of a Tac is what causes the balance issues. This is furthar amplified by the ability of the Las Dev to dodge arund in a close range fight, somthing that again is not part of the HB. Quite simply put a Las Dev is in certian respects, (and depending on exact Trait choices on each side), A more destructive and more Durable Stalker Bolter Tac Marine right now. He gives up a small amount fo strategic mobility and a small amount of dodging capability for markedly better firepower and durability.

A Plas Dev has similar issues but his is in more direct mobility. His ability to open fire with his full destructive power the moment he sees somone coem into his range and feild of veiw is, (like several points mentioned with regards the Las dev), not avalibile to a HB dev, upon being confronted with an enemy he must first set up in place to be able to do his best damage. If cuaght out it's quite possibble, even with perk, for an enemy to eithier take a significant chunk off his health, (Allowing said enemy to win the resultant shootout), or for said enemy to fully or partially escape the resultant torrent of fire, allowing him to live another day. Once again the Plas Dev is also able to far more effectivlly avoid incoming fire than the HB Dev. Just as the Las ev can be thought of as an especially durable and high firepower Stalker Bolter Tac, so the Plasma Cannon can be thought of as a higher firepower, higher durability Vengance Launcher Tac, (with greater ease of use too, but thats by and by). Again apart from a slight Strategic mobility reduction and slight evashion capability reduction he pays no cost for these.

Since i've been using the wole tac comprision above, where do i think the HB dev sits? The HB dev in terms of effective range most closely compares to a Bolter tac. However whilst it's true that he has supiriour durability and firepower, the latter is only true when set up. This forces him to set up to fight and the unsetup again to move. This not only compromises his strategic mobility far more, but also his tactical mobility and evasive capabilities. He's unable to remain setup for ver liong whilst attempting to track a rapidly moving target at very close range, nor is he able to start blasting at people with his full firepower the instant they step into his line of fire unless he was allready setup. Fundamentally it's these heavy limitations that not only justify the high durability, but equally keep the sheer firepower and durability of HB devs in check.


And it's this lack of real downsides with all the upsides of the dev class that creates the fundamental imbalances, and equally makes fixing it damm near impossibble without using some equally arbitarry mechanic. I honestly admit i can't think of any decent idea's, because at the end of the day anything you do thats not weapon specific is going to hurt the HB dev, and it wouldn;t take much to relegate him to the junk pile, he's quite balanced ATM IMHO, and even if we go with the idea that he is in some way too good, there's no question the Las and Plas are worse by a major margin, anything not weapon specific that brought them into line would undoubtedly puch the HB dev into obselence.

[konfeta]

BOOOOOOOO!! Tacked on? Pardon me, but that reason for not keeping that card on the table feels tacked on; it can be said of any solution that you go with. It hardly sounds like an objective approach to a solution. This is the one that happens to make the most intuitive sense. Common now, we're talking about a massive weapon capable of more raw DPS output at all ranges than any class in the game. They need to pay for it some how with some sort of upfront risk or it just gets abused.
It does not make the most intuitive sense. In fact, it would eradicate those two guns as viable unless they were buffed in some other capacity.

[Shuma]

Agreed, i must say i'm glad they're not getting a braced fire mode, it's pretty cool with the HB but i don't see how it suits the Plasma Cannon, or even the Lascannon.

Disclaimer: This post wasn't made from a balance perspective but from a "but it's fun" perspective

[Carl]

In fact, it would eradicate those two guns as viable unless they were buffed in some other capacity.

If that was true it would do the same to the HB. It dosen;t so it wouldn;'t. A Dev is delibretly designed to be tough enough to stand up to the kind of punishment the lockdown of setup tends to attract. That said dosen't look like where getting it, and without that i have no idea how where going to balance those two guns and keep them A)unique in fell, and B), in line with what you'd expect power wise.

[konfeta]

If that was true it would do the same to the HB. It dosen;t so it wouldn;'t. A Dev is delibretly designed to be tough enough to stand up to the kind of punishment the lockdown of setup tends to attract.
Heavy Bolter can all but eliminate bracing time requirement, and kills faster than the other two guns assuming they aren't using their special features.

[Carl]

All but isn't the same as totally, even with Iron Halo i've had tacs half strip my sheilds before i'm set up and shooting, and i've been outright kiled by 2 well aimed grenades as i lock down. Equally the Lascannon and plasma cannon both kill at least as fast if not fasterthan a HB, assuming your accurrate. The HB is just a lot more forgiving of misses bevause of the way it barrages an area. It's only range where it has a real DPS advantage is near point blank. Great if a tac tries to knife you, but a good ASM that quick jumps behind you will get by, so not really much benefit normally.

[Hirmetrium]

Claiming you need bracing to fix the devastator's weapons is a narrow minded and stupid approach. Sorry, but that is my personal opinion on the matter. This is because its a lazy and unimaginative way of fixing an issue while implementing additional limitations on the game and causing a lot of redesign.

Instead, I'll suggest an alternative - balance the lascannon to its single player incarnation (aka how the melta gun currently works in MP) - one shot in the chamber at the time. This will make the currently useless Lascannon Capacitors trait an excellent perk choice, and will seriously rebalance the lascannon to be a "time your shot precisely and well else you are fucked", which is partly mitigated if you want to. The weapon will need more skill to be used then.

It seems somepoint in the MP dev cycle the lascannon got its 4 shot clip up from the single shot clip used in singleplayer. I don't know why this was, guess we'll never find out.

I will say, I never fundamentally disliked the lascannon - reminds me of Halo's Sniper Rifle. That said, you don't spawn with the sniper rifle and theres one on the map at a time. Nor is Halo a class based game. Those two points are enough that I can understand why the gun is OP and needs to change.

Plasma cannon is an entirely different issue that needs looking at seperately - mainly because setup would gimp the gun, and it is not in the same boat in the lascannon.

This thread however, is not about how to balance devastators. We have another for that. Can we please try and keep it focused on the lascannon at the very least?

[Carl]

Hirm i only brought up other devs builds in relation because of the Developer post ;).

That siad your suggestion shows some flawed thinking.

I brought up the Stlaker Tac for a reason. It's a comparision where the functinal similarities of the weapons allow them to be removed and let us look at the basic platforms carying them. There's no question that the Dev has by far the better set of perks for sniper duty, be it durability or defensive capabilites of another nature. And he pays only a very small strategic mobility cost and a small evasive capability cost to get it. The basic Dev platorm is just stronger. In fact, (except at very close range shootouts), this is true of all tac vs Dev Comparisions IMHO.

Fundametally if we want this equation to balance out the Dev is going to have to give somthing up in terms of DPS compared to the stalker Tac. Besides the simple thematic issues this has a few other issues.

1. In an everything else being equal situation you've got 2 loadouts on 2 diffrent classes that fundamentally function in extremly similar ways.

2. It's currently far from simple to get kills with a stalker as it's quite possibble for enemies to dodge away behind cover, an even lower DPS sniper weapon would suffer enourmously more from this.

3. Should a tac prove sufficently skilled to evade enough incoming attacks as to make his defensive disadvantages far less disadvantagous than they would be otherwise, he gains a significat advantage over a lasdev in the same situation due to his greater DPS throughput, allowing him to kill more rapidly.

This is why i say we need to focus on mobility. It's the only way i can see to keep the stalker and lascannon builds differentiated in style, and avoid other secondery issues. I'm just not sure how we can limit it without setup.

[konfeta]

I'm just not sure how we can limit it without setup.
1 shot per reload. It's that simple. Well, changing the recoil perk isn't, but it is still better than ruining the lascannon.

If you immobilize a sniper, especially in a game as unfriendly towards camouflage as this one is, you ruin it.

[Carl]

Konfeta i just explained whyb that would be a bad idea. Proposing the same flawed solution time and again won't make it any less flawed. I also don;t see how locking down a sniper is in any way detrimental when said sniper is quite capble of otlasting and outdamaging anything he could get into a ranged duel with at the lasscannons effective ranges.

[konfeta]

DPS is irrelevant. Lascannon isn't defined by DPS. Lascannon is defined by capability for one shot kills. Clip reduction is a far stronger solution because it simultaneously addresses excessive durability and close-medium range combat prowess (perk requirement for reload speed) without making a Devastator helpless at those ranges with his primary weapon (a skilled devastator can still wipe out 1-2 people who try to close in on him from his field of view).

O.K.; upon rereading the second paragraph, I realized that I am not conveying my thoughts properly. Will come up with a more clear way to put my argument later. The gist of it is, if Lascannon is a set up gun, the Devastator using it will no longer be capable of doing anything except ambushes and killing noobs. It will no longer be capable of zoning the ranges it is intended to because anyone with an accurate weapon will force it to relocate.

Actually, that should be enough.

Lascannon with forced set up will not be capable of sniping because a single shmuck with a bolter will ruin your aim. If you cannot jump out of cover and instantaneously snipe, you can't kill anyone without massive dose of luck. Christ, why didn't I just say that in the beginning.


So, to reiterate with set up, Lascannon cannot do its primary job of sniping (cannot shoot accurately when shot back at, cannot use cover). With a lowered clip, rapid fire has an automatic perk tax imposed on it and is ultimately slower (reload time is about half a second longer than cycle time between current shots), meaning Devastator who doesn't take Signum cannot fight as well at long ranges while a Devastator that doesn't take an armor perk cannot withstand close-medium range fights as easily.

The only question with that solution is what to change the stabilizer perk into. Oh, and Carl? Try it. Actually freaking try playing with a self-imposed mandatory standing still period before you shoot. You are going to die every time someone attacks you unless you quickscope a headshot or plain old run.

[Carl]

It's not about DPS konfeta, it's about the fact that the lasscannon is not a 1 shot kill and about the fact that if you cut it's RoF down enough to balance it out with the stalker tac your going to have a functionally identical sniper in playstyle, but one that is much less effective if not under heavy fire and much less effective if your opponnent is able to dodge behind cover.

Likewise currently there are only 3 weapons accurrate enough at a lasdevs effective range to hit him back, the lasscannon itself, the stalker, and a targeter bolter, (the last is based on second hand accounts i can't get kill streaks with the thing to save my life). Of those, all but the lasscannon, (obviously), can currently be outshot. In a straight duel the sheer DPS, let alone durability, allows the lasscannon to kill more rapidly assuming equal accurracy on both sides. Hell, given the right circumstances and a perfect aim + full clip it's posibble to outshoot 2 non-lasscannon opponnents. It's the same principle that keeps the HB from being UP for that reason.

Whilst the devs have said we aren't getting setup, so that specific method is out, i don't see a mobility limited lasdev, (be it setup or other method), being at a real disadvantage unless multipule oppnnents with accurrate long range weapons all gang up on him. And even then he has a decent chance of taking at least one with him and maybe even all of them depending on numbers and weapon choice.

[konfeta]

If you actually aim, the lascannon is indeed a one shot kill. And Stalker will not be a identical playstyle. Stalker is still a rifle with a 10 bullet clip on a platform that has other utility.

Regular bolter is perfectly capable of interrupting Lascannons aim with burst fire. The closer you move in, the more weapons are capable of doing so. And if the Devastator is forced to stand still, it is even worse - the only reason a Devastator can currently beat let's say a Heavy Bolter is because you can strafe out of its line of fire long enough to shoot a second time. And let's face it - most maps aren't Habitat. You will constantly have opponents show up at medium range, at which point even a Pistol or a Stormbolter can screw you over.

And, how exactly do you propose limiting developer mobility without taking away their ability to fire back at people interrupting their aim? How exactly is that method reducing their viability at closer range without completely destroying it?

[Carl]

Whilst yes you can get a one shot, that requires a headshot. A target that simply evading is damm near imposibble to do that against, and at the longer rages, (Found mainly on habbitat i admit), i find even against a stationery target with the aiming bead dead on the head it dosen't seem to allways be a headsot. Weather thats becuase of the very slight lasscannon inaccurrecy, the way hitboxs are handled, or some odd lag produced artifact i don't know. I just know that a suprising number don't count as headshots but as bodyshots instead.

Likweise i think you massivly underestimating the minimum effective range of the lasscannon, (discounting various methods of getting round the whole no recitle without zoom issue). IMHO it's only slightly less than the length of the side alleys in the main area of manefactorioum. Any closer than that and unless you use the prior mentioned workarounds, you just won't be able to track a dodging target quickly enough because of the linmited feild of veiw and track rate. You need the shot 95% lined up before you zoom in to hit them at that range. If somones close enough to seriously hit you with an SB he's ionside your minimum range, though if you aim for the body, even a HB dev in that range can't through your aim enough, (thought their the only ones liable to hold still long enough to hit at that range, and it's somthing of a first seen wins scenario) Besides the width of habbittat amd the habbitat main side corridior, the only places with anything like a "long" range for the lascannon are:

Bassillica: The length of open space between the 2 spawns, and the length between the C and D points

Manefactorioum: Again between the spawns, also, between the two firing ledges in the side rooms.

Waste Managment: No really optimal ones, but the closest would be from the back of the A/B Sieze ground area's to the top of the side up ramps.

Bridge: From the overpass to the back of the spawn aea, or from the corridors out of the spawn area's to the aproach of the middle point from the oppossite sides.



About the stalker. What other role do you think it has? Once you inside it's minimum sniper range, (about the same as the lascannons IMHO), it's markedly less effective than anything but the basic un perked bolter or, (if it's not point blank), melta. It's certianly a bit asier to hip shoot with, but it's not what you'd call effective.

[konfeta]

I am still figuring out the exact issues with the hitbox/lag. But I have seen lascannon devastators perform serial headshots, so I don't think it's a particularly big problem.

I am not underestimating the lascannon at lower range, but you are overestimating its power if you immobilize its user. Lascannon users survive because they can pop out of cover and shoot. If you deny them the ability to use cover/dodge gunfire, they can't fight other players head on unless the attacker is a significantly worse player.

Stalker does fine at close range. Great damage output, and if you are particularly worried about close range encounters, you have weapon versatility or burst fire perks for a reason.

[Imperial Honour]

I do not know about anyone else but is not that hard to blind fire on people and kill them once they get inside the comfort range of my Stalker Bolter scope, more so with the Burst Fire perk then without it. Then again what range I can use the scope at and what range others can comfortably use it at varies, I can still use it in a medium-close range environment personally. Besides the Bolt Pistol can make for a handy sidearm if you can't use the Stalker Bolter up close, put a few people to shame last night using the BP as my personal defence weapon when my lascannon couldn't help.

Due to personal experiences with high latency and low latency games I would have to say that lag can be a big factor at times, given a less laggy environment my headshot ratio with the Lascannon improves massively when at extreme ranges. Hampering the Lascannon Devastator's ability to duck in to cover is a touche subject if the Iron Halo gets some tweaks, or other perks become more competitive choices against Iron Halo. Without the Iron Halo you very much need the ability to hide behind cover when you have fire inbound your way, even with the Iron Halo you can still need cover if the incoming fire is heavy enough.

The reload perk for the Lascannon needs to be more beneficial in my opinion to make it worth taking more often, making the Lascannon reload after each shot can achieve that since the Lascannon is more concerned with headshot alpha strikes then DPS. If you hit them and they want to try and bullrush you whip out the BP and kill them, otherwise BP is still a decent option or try and leg it to a safe area to reload the Lascannon. Sure high latency games hit the Lascannon harder then other weapons, but weapons should preferably be balanced for low latency environments otherwise what might be fine in high latency games might be overpowered in low latency games. With tolerable latency headshots can be pulled off much easier making skilled marksmen deadly no matter how fast the weapon fires, so if they constantly pull off headshots it leaves rate of fire as one of the few determining factors on how many people are killed per minute.

To get Lascannon Devastators to brace they need an advantage to do so rather then a penalty, a bit like the Heavy Bolter, so that the reward is worth the risk. If Lascannon Devastators were to brace then they should conceivably get a similar affect as to that of the Heavy Bolter by allowing them to put more firepower downrange to compensate for their complete lack of mobility, or if not that then another advantage which would make Lascannon Devastators wish to brace. The Lascannon is no less deadly with a slower DPS as long as one gets headshots, which I do believe is the point of the Lascannon and sniper weapons. I'm no "pro sniper" but even I have been able to pull off a string of extreme range headshots, or if you prefer closer range I can also do closer range headshots (assuming I don't just Bolt Pistol them to death). Oh yes and let us not forget that a bunch of cover objects can be rendered useless thanks to the Lascannon's penetration, sure it takes more shots to kill someone but they either die or come out in to the open.

That is my personal experience and opinion on the matter (PC player), and I would be interested in hearing what some of the staff at Relic think. Obviously Lascannons may be less of an issue on the two consoles though due to the lack of fine precision mouses.

[Carl]

Konfeta i've allready explained how ducking in and out is COMPLETLY UNECESSRY, (in the time frame of howlong your going to setup in one place). There's nothing that can hit you outside your minimum range that you cannot simply outshoot with it and kill well before they kill you. If your so close that the vast majority of the players on the map can hit you with effective fire from their weapons your simply too close. If sonmone gets so close i need to be doing that (as things are now), i run for it and find a new firing location. I don't even attempt to fight somone with a lascannon at that range unless i have no choice or it's a HB dev i got the drop on, (Since their need to setup makes them an easy target). Once they get into effective rnage for the other weapons my ability to aim goes out the window. I don;t like cheating with the no recitle thing, and without that getting a shot sufficently lined up to quick scope them isn;t happening, the recitle veiw isn't large enough, i can't track them properly.

EDIT: The best way to think of what the lasscannons minimum range is, is this: If it's not a long range awaring shot, or very close to that it's probably inside the effective range of the lasscannon.

@IH: I agree the low latency is the ideal situation to balance things for, and i understand where your coming from on the IH, it is a big part of what lets you handle more than one countersniper as a Dev, (unless it's a IH equipped lasdev you can allways outshoot one countesniper, but you do need it for 2), but on some level the IH is a fairly big crutch for the entire class. The Dev class sin't an inherently mobile class, Plas cannon aside, (which is a whole other balance issue), the IH is if not vital, then highly desirable, and frankly it's one of the few good lasdev perks. (Lascannon perks and Signum being the other ones IMHO). Also the current lasscannon allready has a huge advantage over other weapons. It can outshoot anything at it's effective ranges. It a 2 shot kill vs anything but a IH Dev, thats 2 seconds to kill. Thats on par with a HB at nearly point blank range, and better than a Melta. A Stalker bolter might be able to match that with burst fire, but certinally not without it, and a targeter bolter defintly can't.

Regarding the stalker: Yes the things can be used at close rnage, and i don't have the Burst fire perk yet, but unperked vs unperked the only thing you can reliably outshoot at unscoped ranges in an equal skill situation is the Bolter. It dosen't have enough DPS to out DPS another tac with another weapon at those ranges. Sure if they'e allredy damaged and your fresh you can win, but otherwise, not a chance.

Regarding headshots:

Look i've got serial headshots too, i've seen others do it. But in my experiance of my own situations and whatching others do it, (And being on the reciving end), that only happens when the target is unaware of your presence and thus moving predictably or standing still. Getting headshots against evading targets just dosen't happen often, and certianly not multipule in a row on a regular basis. SInce we have no way of tracking it it's hard to be sue what my ratio of headshots to kills is, but it's probably not much better than my stalker, which is about 3 to 1, i'm not the best sniper i admit, but i haven't encountered anyone who, from my perspective, is averaging markedly better than around 2 to 1. I'm sure they exist, but their fabously rare if so. If your happy with the idea that only a couple of dozen people in the entire game with absolutly perfect aim can get any use out of the lascannon, by all means keep suggesting this idea. But personolly i'd rather the lasscannon remained actually usubale by most people, apart from not liking the idea of rendering a full 1/3 of the Devs weapons a non options for virtually everyone, it strikes me as sub optimal if we can first come up with an alternative.

Look we know where not getting setup so i don; treally see why where still arguing over it TBH. My best idea's, (take some combination), atm:

1. Give the Lasscannon a base damage nerf, but a damage buff when scoped. Won;t help with quick scoping, but should stop the whole nor ecitle shooting.

2. Increase the innaccurcy time after each shot to around 0.75 seconds or so and make the scope start in that mode. Should help encourage people not to spend all their time relocating between shjots, but to do it between kills instead.

3. Make any kind of movment de-scope you. Really tied in with idea 2, you can still move fairly freely between kills, but your encouraged not to try playing games between shots. This makes you an easier target for coutnersnipers, discouraging close range use and providing a disadvantage to justify the really high mid-long and long range DPS.

4. Reduce the track rate of the scoped mode. Basiclly means as long as you stay dodging the quick scoping shouldn'ty be too effective up close.