What happened, Relic?

[Buguba]

I've been a pretty big fan of Relic games over the years, but I gotta say how much this game disappointed me. For a developer that has created so many masterful games, both Space Marine and Dawn of War 2 seem to be reversing the trend. I love the Warhammer universe, but an awesome backdrop for your games is no excuse to release a game in an incomplete fashion (in comparison to your previous works). Dawn of War 1 was released with a single-player mode and a multi-player mode, but the thought put into the unit interactions (sync-kills), the story, and the gameplay was amazing. In the age of co-op, Company of Heroes was released with only a single-player mode and a multi-player mode, but the detail put into the environment and unit interactions was stunning yet again.

Dawn of War 2 was shipped with a single-player mode, a multi-player mode, and a co-op mode, but all the environmental destruction and unit animations were strangely lacking in comparison to its WW2 predecessor. Perhaps this might have been overlooked with an enriched gameplay experience, but Relic managed to gut a large aspect of the macro economy (base building) without putting in much of anything to compensate. Unit responsiveness was clunky, the multi-player balance was completely revamped only 3 patches in, and the campaign was so uninspired that it wasn't worth playing more than once. Luckily Relic managed to flesh Dawn of War 2 out in future patches and expansions (The Last Stand, map tools, skin packs, etc), but it was a full *year* before any of these fruits were actually brought to bare.

Now you've released Space Marine, and you've managed to do it again. You've released a console game into a market where the standard features of any decent game are single-player, multi-player, co-op, and at least one alternative game-type. Space Marine, on the other hand, offers no alternative form of play, no co-op, and several large technical issues to boot. You can promise these features in the form of DLC later all you want, but that doesn't excuse you from the standard that we know you are perfectly capable of achieving. Maybe your number-crunchers have found that releasing a bicycle with no handlebars to the public and then shipping out the grips through the mail later is sound business, but I'm not convinced. Other than the backdrop (which you didn't even create yourselves), what motivation do I have to purchase this game at all? Purchasing Halo: Reach nets me the same excellent presentation PLUS character customization, almost zero technical issues, a built-in map-editor, and co-op. The best part is that they gave me all of that with my initial investment.

If you can offer the same things in a year, that's great. That's a year later than I'm interested in looking at the game though. Take a leaf out of Starcraft 2's book and don't release your game until you know it's ready. I don't much care for Starcraft 2, but at least I feel I'm getting my money's worth. I've ceased to feel that way about Relic games.

[Sabulum]

Multiplayer is awesome. There's technical issues, but that's a staple of every Relic game ever. Multiplayer is still playable however, and the single player is fun if not amazing. I don't know why Relic didn't release dedicated servers, and I don't know why the netcode is so bad. Those are legitimate complaints but they don't ruin the game.

Dawn of War was just as bad as Dawn of War 2 on release, and was only fixed through copious amounts of patching...only to be broken in the next expansion. Anyone remember land speeder rush in DC or Chim spam in WA, or the incredibly awesome "delete the HQ to get money for Khorne Berzeker rush?" Or Eldar in general.

[Jaimas]

Brace yourselves, Relicnews veterans, 'cuz I'm about to drop a bombshell:

I don't think it's Relic's fault anymore.

They weren't really responsible for the Soulstorm incident; Iron Lore and Relic were both notably rushed by THQ according to all parties involved. The bulk of this game's problems are, I feel, not so much the part of Relic as they are the fault of THQ's time honored practices of being a douche of a publisher and saying "What the hell do we care about you people? You already gave us your money, now go screw."

[Slade_Templar]

Hmm, I've been playing quite a bit lately and haven't really noticed any technical issues; single player or multiplayer.

Coop mode is coming next month for free, just like Last Stand did in DoW2.

While Reach is amazing, they have been building the pieces for that game over several years/iterations/games instead of starting from scratch like SM just did.

[jujumbura]

While Reach is amazing, they have been building the pieces for that game over several years/iterations/games instead of starting from scratch like SM just did.

Exactly. The bar is set so incredibly high right now that any developer wishing to enter the mainstream AAA market is in a really difficult position. You're expected to be releasing with all of the "standard features", AND be innovating, AND be blowing everyones socks of graphically. One way to do that is to have been building an engine since the 1990's (Halo). Another way is to go dark for like 6 years and build something epic (Starcraft 2). But if you gamble wrong on the latter, (assuming your publisher even funds it), your company is totally hosed. Plus let's not forget that some developrs don't actually want to work on the same title for half a decade (shocker!).

Or, you could do something a little different. You could mix together a bunch of popular mechanics in a way that nobody has really done before, give it the most polish you can, and get your foot into the market. It ain't gonna be perfect, but it will at least stand out a bit, and you can start building on that foundation.

I think what they did with this title made a lot of sense, and even though it's no Company of Heroes, I have had a blast with it. I look forward to future iterations, because you know that they learned an absolute boatload when develping this game. And of course, the 40K universe has nearly endless possibilities.

[Buguba]

Multiplayer is awesome. There's technical issues, but that's a staple of every Relic game ever. Multiplayer is still playable however, and the single player is fun if not amazing. I don't know why Relic didn't release dedicated servers, and I don't know why the netcode is so bad. Those are legitimate complaints but they don't ruin the game.

Dawn of War was just as bad as Dawn of War 2 on release, and was only fixed through copious amounts of patching...only to be broken in the next expansion. Anyone remember land speeder rush in DC or Chim spam in WA, or the incredibly awesome "delete the HQ to get money for Khorne Berzeker rush?" Or Eldar in general.
The multiplayer is certainly awesome, and the presentation is amazing. I'm just tired of this whole "we're going to release what should be standard in the form of DLC later" stuff. Dawn of War 2 did it, and now Space Marine is doing it.

Company of Heroes and Dawn of War 1 were FAR from perfect. No game is perfect (especially at release). The standard of release for Dawn of War 1 and Company of Heroes was above that of what Dawn of War 2 and Space Marine have been though. The set of gameplay options for both Company of Heroes and Dawn of War 1 were standard for their time in terms of polished games. The state of Dawn of War 2 and Space Marine, however, is not.


They weren't really responsible for the Soulstorm incident; Iron Lore and Relic were both notably rushed by THQ according to all parties involved. The bulk of this game's problems are, I feel, not so much the part of Relic as they are the fault of THQ's time honored practices of being a douche of a publisher and saying "What the hell do we care about you people? You already gave us your money, now go screw."
Ultimately, it's Relic's choice to contract themselves to those people. For me though, I don't care if it's Relic, Activision, THQ, or whoever. All I care about is if the game is worth buying. It's disappointing when games from a developer with a good history manage to come out incomplete.


While Reach is amazing, they have been building the pieces for that game over several years/iterations/games instead of starting from scratch like SM just did.
They *did* build Reach from scratch. It's a new game-engine. The only thing they built off of before were their own games and the story they created. Relic has had the opportunity to do just the same, but they've failed quite miserably at self-improvement.

[HeLMuT]

The only problem I have with this game is lag, and that sucks, because I really like this game. With out dedis this game will die for me :( just like Reach did. Yes, I own a 360 but I play SM on my PC, but where I live I only have 1 choice for an ISP and it is a crappy one at that. So without being able to choose a server that I have a good connection with, the lag will kill this game for me

[Slade_Templar]

It's a new game-engine

No, its not. There are still pieces of Halo2 code in there. Really well built code, but its still really old code. They have said this in developer interviews.

The game-engine hasn't ever really changed considerably, they just make it better with every iteration.

Reach was most assuredly NOT 'built-from-scratch'


just like Reach did

You must be joking. The p2p in Reach is astonishingly good, I have NEVER had an issue with too much lag/net problems, in all of the time I've played it. If you seriously think Reach needs dedicated servers... I just don't even know.

[HeLMuT]

Slade, you need to read my whole post. I have a slower broadband than most people do, I live in a town with only 800 people. My connection with others running P2P usually results in lag. So until you come over to my house and try to play some P2P gaming than I suggest you dont tell me how things run on my end.

Not once did I say Reach needed Dedis.

Although it would be awesome if Reach came to the PC with dedis :)

[Buguba]

No, its not. There are still pieces of Halo2 code in there. Really well built code, but its still really old code. They have said this in developer interviews.

The game-engine hasn't ever really changed considerably, they just make it better with every iteration.

Reach was most assuredly NOT 'built-from-scratch'
Okay, I was wrong then.

I still stand by my point though. If you're not going to include what has now become baseline features to a game, then I'm not going to waste my time. I don't think Relic is an evil corporate monster living under my bed, stealin' my peoples. I work at a corporate office too, I know what it's like when a company has a tight budget, limited time, and has the world against it. However, as a consumer, the thoughts that go through my head are NOT, "gee, they made an excellent game for their budget constraints!" The first thing I think is, "is this game worth the monetary investment compared to other games?" Perhaps my standards are high, but the answer to me is "no."

If what you're arguing is that Relic made an excellent game based around an understanding marketplace, then it's time for them to acknowledge the fact that the market isn't forgiving. Nobody cares if you're a AAA company or not. You either make a competitive product, or you don't. In my opinion, Space Marine is not a competitive product right now. Maybe it will be in a year when the price drops and DLC is released, but it's a disappointing to see a developer release so many competitive games and then flop like this.

[Mac_Bug]

coop comes out in a month, if not sooner

[Slade_Templar]

I don't understand 'slower' broadband, if you have cable it should be enough.

I guarantee you, when I am playing Reach, most of those people I'm playing with aren't in Kansas; so your town size probably isn't affecting your matchmaking.

You said Reach was dead to you, because it is without 'dedis'. The entire playlist functionality in Reach would be dead if dedicated servers were implemented, no thanks.


If what you're arguing is that Relic made an excellent game based around an understanding marketplace, then it's time for them to acknowledge the fact that the market isn't forgiving. Nobody cares if you're a AAA company or not. You either make a competitive product, or you don't. In my opinion, Space Marine is not a competitive product right now.

I guess you get to wait and see then, it was #2 on the UK charts last week, so I guess the 'market' doesn't exactly share your viewpoint.

[HeLMuT]

Slade, once again, until you come to my house and try to game on my 360 you have no room to try to tell me how it works. Plus, you assumed that I have cable... and you were wrong.

p2p gaming is quit inferior to having dedis.

No, Slade, I said SM will die just like Reach did. Reach died for me because of the lag I was talking about that comes from p2p gaming.
.
And i'm sorry that you don't understand "slower" broadband, but I'm not here to teach you the different speeds and connection types ISP's offer

[Slade_Templar]

Slade, once again, until you come to my house and try to game on my 360 you have no room to try to tell me how it works. Plus, you assumed that I have cable... and you were wrong.

Sorry, I figured when you said you had 'broadband' you meant cable. Alright, you have awful lag from your home, that will be totally mitigated by having dedicated servers, gotcha.


p2p gaming is quit inferior to having dedis.

Thanks for the tip. I'll continue to enjoy Reach just the way it is. Oh, and Space Marine, since I have no problems.

[HeLMuT]

Well, I am glad for you lil' buddy, and I won't miss either of these games that much. There are a ton of games out for me to enjoy :) But I prefer playing my multiplayer games with the least amount of lag as possible.

[Slade_Templar]

Well, hopefully they will release a dedicated client for the PC guys; not really necessary for the other platforms though.

[ricolikesrice]

always keep in mind that relic first and foremost is just a company name. the relic of nowadays might still have a few guys who worked on Homeworld or DOW1 or COH but as usual in the games industry jobs change very quick and i m fairly certain the SM team is drastically different to that of DOW1

DOW2s lead works on SC2:HOTS now for example and if i remember right (correct me if wrong) many of the original COH crew left to make their own thing (anyone know anything comming out of that ?).

as its a combination of individuals that creates games and not a company name .... its not really suprising relics (not only theirs) products are so "uneven". but with keeping that in mind not only makes slavish fanboyism no sense at all ... it also works the other way around: there s no reason to hate/abandon on relic because maybe next game they hired some fresh blood with really good ideas. judge the game, not the company - is what i m trying to say.

i also loathed DOW2 crappy singleplayer campaign but i m glad i gave retribution a chance again as i seriously enjoyed that (even though it has 2 big flaws... but it was still ultimativly fun to to play)

...


as far as space marine is concerned i find some design decisions highly questionable but am still optimistic the coop will make up for it. and if not i ll hope for Space Marine 2 to be developed by yet another different relic team that maybe does stuff more to my liking.

[Buguba]

I guess you get to wait and see then, it was #2 on the UK charts last week, so I guess the 'market' doesn't exactly share your viewpoint.
Seeing as it was the only game created by a major developer that was released within the last month, I'm not surprised. Dawn of War 2 actually followed somewhat of the same pattern, where it had huge initial sales due to its timing, but then the player-base tapered off rather quickly. You could physically watch it happen in Dawn of War 2: Retribution with the new system that allowed you to view the amount of people online in the game at once.


i also loathed DOW2 crappy singleplayer campaign but i m glad i gave retribution a chance again as i seriously enjoyed that (even though it has 2 big flaws... but it was still ultimativly fun to to play)

...


as far as space marine is concerned i find some design decisions highly questionable but am still optimistic the coop will make up for it. and if not i ll hope for Space Marine 2 to be developed by yet another different relic team that maybe does stuff more to my liking.
That's a fair judgment. It's probably best to judge games on a case-by-case basis rather than in an over-arching company view due to the mechanics of business. That was an erroneous assessment on my part.

[Pocktio]

I wish I could disagree with you but I can't.

The package seems to be rather bare minimum to me. We're lacking a lot of 40k weapons and such, we know much has been cut, the multiplayer is incredibly standard and bland (still fun) and they seem to overely on certain features. It would be like if Reach said 'Ok our matchmaking sucks but look at all the pretty customiser options!'

It could have been so much more than good, it could and should have been great.

[Sinogrim]

Yes, the game is not on par with the AAA titles like CoD, Halo, Battlefield, Gears of War, ...

But you guys seem to forget that this game is multi-platform published by THQ (which hasn't really been doing soo good the past few years) and is a brand new franchise. Do you guys remember Assassin's Creed 1? Yes. That game was hyped up soo much, a lot was promised but eventually the game fell flat on it's face due to it's extremely bland gameplay and lack of multiplayer or co-op. However, Ubisoft decided to keep building on that game and now, Assassin's Creed is basically one of the most popular franchises of this generation.

Yes, Space Marine isn't perfect and doesn't really stand out between it's competitors but the foundation is there and I am fully convinced that this game is bursting with potential just waiting to be used in the sequels.

[Misiok]

Then what do we expect? A competetive MP title with multiplayer that will keep it alive for years, or a new sequel each 2 years that gets forgotten after half a year when another AAA title of the month gets released?

[Gorb]

It's not so much a question of what we expect, because as gamers we are prone to expecting, quite simply, too much. We cite examples of game X doing this, and game Y doing that, where X and Y are the best in this and that (in the industry, arguably) respectively. Then we want both of those examples in a game.

And then we want it for a lower price ;)

No, it's more a question of "how much can developers and/or publishers (whichever you choose to hold responsible) get away with and manage to turn a profit". Of course, this is more pointless theorising because none of us are in the industry (going on reading these boards over a period of several years). But hey, it's better than building unrealistic expectations ad infinitum.

[BigSteve]

You have an industry standard that consumers expect. I expect that paying top dollar for a game that advertises a "AAA" blockbuster campaign and robust MP should have just that. The campaign is sufficient, but the current state of MP is not acceptable. I will give them a month to roll out the content they have been talking about, because that may fix it. After that however, if MP is still broken, then they can suck a fat one. And when I say they, I am talking about the party that decided to shit can MP and its potential before the retail release.

[Slade_Templar]

but the current state of MP is not acceptable

Eh, must be playing a different game than you, I am having a pretty good time with the multiplayer.

Although in NZ... yea getting good matchmaking there would interesting to say the least I imagine. They definitely at least need to add region filtering.

[BigSteve]

I am not, because I play on PC from a country that desperately requires matchmaking filters or dedicated servers. We have neither. I paid more than you for the game also, and your MP experience is better. - fundamental flaw.

[TeaSeeOh]

I'm honestly surprised that no mention of how unoriginal the MP is isn't up there as a valid complaint. Sure, it's fun, but it's pretty damn disappointing considering this is Relic. These are the same guys who made a cover system, suppression mechanic, AND cinematic synchronized kills in an RTS, yet their Third Person Shooter game copies Perks straight out of Call of Duty? The amount of things that also could have been included: Orks as a playable race(Shoota Boy, Storm Boy, and Loota would be 3 ideal classes), Vehicles, etc. were just completely unexplored.

I'd say that is the biggest "what happened?" for me. DLC(free at that) shipping later isn't something that's worth complaining about. Infact I'd venture to guess this business method actually helps the game's longevity because it A). keeps people in anticipation and B). brings people back/new people in when said update comes. And yeah....it's free.

This game's got 99 problems, but some of the things you listed aint one.

[Gorb]

I find it amusing so many people are correlating a single perk to ZOMG THEY ARE STEALING COD LAMENESS.

@BigSteve: price gouging isn't necessarily Relic or even THQ's fault, but there's so much contradictory evidence on that subject (that I have been able to find) that I am loathe to say much more. I guess whoever's fault it is, you still had to pay it.

[Demonic Spoon]

I'm honestly surprised that no mention of how unoriginal the MP is isn't up there as a valid complaint. Sure, it's fun, but it's pretty damn disappointing considering this is Relic. These are the same guys who made a cover system, suppression mechanic, AND cinematic synchronized kills in an RTS, yet their Third Person Shooter game copies Perks straight out of Call of Duty? The amount of things that also could have been included: Orks as a playable race(Shoota Boy, Storm Boy, and Loota would be 3 ideal classes), Vehicles, etc. were just completely unexplored.


...Relic was not the first developer to create cover/suppression mechanics. Not at all.

The game is slightly anemic content wise...slightly...I don't see it as a big deal, especially if Relic plans to add to it over time. I'd be fine if they fixed the netcode.

By the standards in the OP, the only thing it's missing is coop. There are two game modes...

[TeaSeeOh]

One perk? Try 90% of them. Exaggeration, before anyone blatantly points out that it's more along the lines of 75% and not 90. Again, sarcasm before anyone points out that it's more like 65.23% carry over the zero and not 75%. But yeah, a good majority of those perks are pretty much from CoD. They might as well have added Kill Streak rewards(would be awesome though tbh, instead of an Attack Chopper you get a Dreadnought or instead of a Bombing Run you get a Valkyrie Run. Man that would be bad ass).

And I don't really think I cited Relic as the sole originator of a cover system...Though to be honest, their cover system was implemented pretty flawlessly and uniquely, as in comparison to other such systems it utilizes variable numbers depending on the exact type of cover.

Point is, Relic could have done a whole host of things better than what they currently did. This MP isn't really wowing in any aspect. It's fairly mediocre and bland all things considered, which isn't bad, but like I said, I've come to expect more from this company. This may be great for diehard 40k fans, but nothing this MP has is going to keep casual people playing, especially without dedicated servers and lackluster co-op. Very disappointed the main story wasn't co-op, considering it was pretty much the perfect set up for it.

[Demonic Spoon]

What were you expecting? The netcode issues I'll give you, but beyond that the game is performing exactly as it was expected to. It's a third person action game set in the 40K universe. The point of the game is to run around as a space marine hitting things with chainswords and power axes and watching shit explode. If you were expecting something different than you should have done more research prior to buying - the game was never advertised as anything different.

[TeaSeeOh]

If you're referencing my post, I listed loads of things they could have added to increase gameplay variety. Nevermind gameplay modes they could have added at the least, something as simple as CTF or objectives. If they were also going with the CoD Perk system route, they might as well have gone the whole nine yards as well and added Kill Streak rewards like I said. Vehicles would also be incredibly cool and allow variety in terms of gameplay, and how about co-op for the main story? Different factions for MP? You fight Orks for the better part of the campaign and yet they aren't even so much as touched in MP.

Rather than make another post I'll just edit this in regards to Gorb: I think it's more along the lines of the completely blatant CoD Perk ripoffs. Final Vengeance, Combat Versatility, Larraman's Blessing, Favor of the Armory. Severely lacking in afterthought doesn't change the facts. These perks are severely lacking in originality. These are also just the ones that come to mind, there are some others as well.

[Gorb]

So increasing weapon damage, increasing weapon magazine capacity and decreasing reload time . . . these are all direct ports of CoD perks that make absolutely no sense in a weapon-based game such as Space Marine? They're blatantly just copying the first game ever to have weapon-related perks, the mighty and awesome game that is CoD!

Oh wait weapon perks are thieved/diverted from traditional RPG games where you could level proficiencies in weapons. Nevermind.

Your personal complaints about the game are as valid as anyone elses', but complaining that SM copied perks "straight out of" a game such as COD is severely lacking in forethought.

[BigSteve]

The whole perk thing is a redundant comment, its in the same ilk as people saying Relic copied Gears deciding to go with the 3rd person aspect. So so stupid.

[Cuddles]

@Buguba,

Space Marine is not incomplete. The game has been released with everything they have said it would. Nothing is missing. Coop and the like are things you expect to have included in a title because other games did, no other reason. Yes, it would have been great playing the game coop with a friend throughout the story mode. But that was never on the cards, to complain it is missing seems a little fruitless. Space Marine does what you were told it would do, and its does it well. I honestly don't understand why your complaining that -Insert Favourite Game Mode- was not included, it just sounds a little like your asking for gears game modes, dressed in power armour. Just out of curiosity, have you actually tried the demo?

[Shuma]

Space Marine is not incomplete. The game has been released with everything they have said it would. Nothing is missing.

Yeah, i sure enjoyed smashing that Killa Kan apart!

[BigSteve]

LOL^

[hellic]

It does have a load of bugs and missing content, but I suspect THQ pushed for it to be released before Gears of War 3.

[Pocktio]

Similarly I enjoyed the in-campaign weapon levelling. That combi-plasma was sure fun to use.

[BigSteve]

^^ EH? Did you play an alpha build or something?

[Cuddles]

You guys ;). Nothing gets dropped from your mods then Shuma? :D

If the best you can come up with is nitpick over early builds of the game, I'll assume you agree with everything. Space Marine is a new game, Gears has been built up over the years just like halo. I'm not saying the game is perfect, just peoples expectations of it are unreasonable.

[Misiok]

Well, while I understand this, you can't expect to gain a steady footing without giving a 150% finished product when you want to play with the big boys. You have to give something that makes people flock from Call of Duties and various other Battlefields. You have to make us do a 'wow, that's not in the countless other copy-paste games I played already and yet can't stop playing them! That one game looks fresh, I have to try it!'

[Gorb]

It does have a load of bugs and missing content, but I suspect THQ pushed for it to be released before Gears of War 3.Haven't found a bug yet, don't know about you.

[Chong]

For a studio that makes strategy games I think Relic did a pretty good job.

Obviously it doesn't have the polish that gears or halo or any other triple A title has but I wouldn't expect it too.
All those game are on their 3rd + iterations and as such the studios who make them have alot of experience, they've had time to polish everything to a perfect shine.
They know what works and what doesn't.

If I'm totally honest I was a little disapointed aswell but if you asked me if I'd rather relic had not botherd and just stuck to there strategy games I'd say no deffinately not.
I'm pleased they were brave enough to go for it and I did enjoy playing it
Hopefully they will support it a little now that it's out, build up abit of a fan base and be able to provide something bigger and better next time.

You can't compete the the best overnight, you just can't.

[Nashnir]

If only they had released Mod tools....

[titlams]

Comparing Space Marine's content/innovations to Call of Duty's is like comparing Rift's content/innovations to World of Warcraft. Better than when they first come out, but sucks compared to 6years of improvements.

[ricolikesrice]

That's a fair judgment. It's probably best to judge games on a case-by-case basis rather than in an over-arching company view due to the mechanics of business. That was an erroneous assessment on my part.

most fall for it. even if i know better i still get excited first when i read company XY does game YZ .... and just after the excitements drops off i realize that its most likely a completely different team again.

what i find highly amusing in retrospective is how many relic fans banged against Starcraft 2 .... yet quite a few developers who work on SC2 used to work on the dawn of war series before ;)

oh btw, according to mobygames Space Marine lead producer Raphael van Lierop is no longer with relic but ubisoft montreal , working on Far Cry 3 - this is how the industry works and why fanboyism for video games companies is even more retarded than teen girls worshipping some vampire - at least thats always the same actor, so 1:0 for the girls.

[shrp]

Well, I have to admit I was expecting more as well but considering the company had no experience with 3rd person action titles, this could have been expected. There's a great OST but the tracks were interrupted by some unfluffy tribal drum rhytms most of the time. Animations are great, one can almost feel the weight of the armor on the screen, the FX artist (explostions, muzzle flashes...) did a fantastic job, textures look nice but it is all somehow undermined by pale looking image (especially outdoors). A lot of small details is missing like vertical thrusters on gunships, no dust when they land and so on but I do find the greatest weakness in the combat system. My hopes for having some great duels like in Overgrowth vanished after playing the demo and the full game only confirmed it.

But there is a lot of potential and I am sure Relic will not be deaf to it's fans. While the result is not very good, many things were done right and I believe it's bad decisions rather than lack of skill of Relic workers what caused this situation.

[Shuma]

@Cuddles:

I'm not disappointed in Space marine, probably because i had no expectations for it besides "you're a space marine, kill dem orks", my only point is that it was incomplete, the reason however that i only mentioned the Killa kan was because iirc Relic did address other stuff that was dropped from the game, the Killa Kan however, was not.

And sure, the Killa Kan was just in an early trailer, that doesn't change the fact that it was and Relic never mentioned that it was removed, hence people expected it to be there because an advertisement for the game had it. Just google Space Marine Killa Kan, you'll find a bunch of posts saying how they were surprised that it wasn't there.

[Cortlendt]

This is a 40K fan-oriented product. For me it is hard to enjoy the multi cause of lag issues and tbh campaign is kinda railroad experience in copy-paste environments. This is not a game of DoW, DoW2 or CoH magnitude.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

The one thing that gets me about SM graphics are how slim and streamlined the space marines look. Their shoulder pads and armor looks very form fitting and slender compared to.... all previous artwork depicting them. No huge pauldrons, no massive frame, they are just scaled up normal humans sort of. Take a look at them in the multiplayer customizer and even the Dev backpacks are very small and sleek compared to previous depictions of Space Marines.

[Shuma]

That's how Space Marines look in the 5th edition codex, which is imo, much better than "HUGE PAULDRONS! HUGE CROTCH! LOOK AT HOW WIDE I AM OH MY EMPEROR"

[shrp]

I like the models and proportions of the SM in this game. There's nothing wrong about them :-)

[Nurizeko]

Aside from the fact they aren't 8 foot giants towering over the guardsmen, I didn't notice anything wrong and I think the marines proportions look good.

Lets face it, if 40k is ever going to gain wider appeal (at least amongst the gaming community) poetic license means some of the more 'zaney' features of 40k (like a single space marine WTFpwning an entire tomb world or something) will have to be left to the Black Library books.

Does the game look like 40k? Yes.

Does a marine destroy an ork cruzza and a planetary defence cannon with strength alone? Yes.

Do three marines smash through an ork horde and chaos scum with little to no support? Yes.


Close enough.

[Imperial Honour]

All posts are subject to personal opinion. Just because you did not enjoy the game that does not mean that others did not. Whether the game is a financial\critical success is dependent on more then one person. Point I'm making? I don't like Call of Duty, other people do, does that make Call of Duty something that is an epic fail just because I perceive it so? No, refer to what I said first up. Sorry if you did not enjoy the game, others have though.

[aziz_hafla]

Multiplayer is great, 2 diffrent game types and 5 diffrent maps.

Either relic rush their shit or they are just to lazy, look at halo reach for exampe, so many stuff, many maps, gametypes... etc.. and this game didnt have much...
i wish i could make my own possessed marine :( or play a map with viechles :(((

FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU RELIC

[Gorb]

Or maybe Relic don't have however many years of experience the Bungie team had with Halo to make it into Halo: Reach.

But hey, let's call them lazy when we actually have no idea about how hard they work. I wonder how many people in this forum are actually games developers.

[Chris]

Gorb I'm pretty sure that if the Relic development team personally came to my house to punch me in the face you'd have a string of excuses lined up for why they were justified in doing so, and you'd also be only to quick to point out that I should be thankful that they didn't kick me in the testicles when I was down.

From what I've played Space Marine is... average. Not bad but not exactly great either. It seems perfectly suited towards todays console market; Play the game for a couple of weeks or maybe a couple of months if you really like it, then trade it in when the next Call Of Duty comes out. There is nothing that really screams SUBSTANCE in this title and I would be surprised to see any kind of long term community form beyond die-hard 40k fans. Am I going to enjoy switching my brain off for 30 minutes while I smash some orks in the face? Yes I'm sure I will. Could I squeeze a few months of enjoyment out of this game if I really tried? Assuming the multiplayer lag doesn't piss me off too much it's certainly possible but there's nothing to keep me interested or to give me something to really get my teeth into. Perhaps I'll pick this game up when the prices come down to a tenner, but not before.

[CommissarRezail]

Seriously, though when can we expect to play as orks in mp, i really really want to get rid of this mirror crap, fuck balance, i don't care if its the most unbalance game in the universe, as longs it has that 40k style the chaos!!, the action. Not same people vs same people la la la la rROOAOAARER. i want the crazyness!!! I WANNNT, I WANNT!! Give it to meee giveee iiiiiit.

[Gorb]

And I'm pretty sure that if any game Relic released was perfect, Chris, you'd either find some obscure balance nitpick to obsess over, or we wouldn't see you post ever again. Bias to me, bias to you :)

That said, my bias doesn't mean that I don't have a point, and personal insinuations attempting to obscure my point by pointing out my bias aren't really a clever way to debate, are they?

[Theophilis]

For me the only complaints I really have are the lack of split screen anywhere with this game, that's the only multiplayer I play, and the customizer being tied into multiplayer. What? Just because I don't like playing online automatically means I don't like customizing my character. The army painters are one of my favorite parts of the dawn of war games. Your telling me that a game based off of a franchise where the main hobby is collecting and painting miniature figures and you have this amazing unit custimizer and you want to exclusively tie it into the multiplayer component of the game. It wouldn't have been so bad if I had bought the pc version, but I prefer to play this type of game on my x-box and I will not pay for a gold account.

[Demonic Spoon]

The SP campaign involves the ultramarines specifically. What kind of meaningful customization can ou have within that limitation?

[Theophilis]

I actually enjoy the army painters in the dawn of war games in and of them selves. If the customizer was in a different part of the menu not tied to x-box live I would probably use my free gold membership trial to quickly level a character up so I could use the customizer. Your under the mistaken impression that I need some thing to do with my character before I can enjoy it. I would think with the avatars and miis, it's obvious that some people just like being able to personalize things. Now if I had some sort of split-screen co-op mode or single player challenge mode to take my personalized character into, it's that much greater. I know that there is going to be the exterminatus co-op mode dlc, but I have seen nothing that points to it being available to play without a gold account, which is just sad. The only thing that evens the playing field between space marine and gears of war for me is the lack of split screen. I like 40K more than Gears' background, but I can't take space marine over to my buddies house and play it with him.

[Flamerol]

Agreed, i'm so dissapointed in this game... and i'll tell the reasons why i am dissapointed:

1)Single-player - 9 hours-campaign , are you joking Relic ? i mean always the most important part in a WH:40K game was the single-player and not the MP, 9 hours ..it just ain't enough.
2)Lack of SP customization, and lack of RPG-elements - i liked the customization in DOW 2 , you could wear different types of unique armors, weapons and other usefull things (like banners,purrity seals etc) , no customization in Space Marine singleplayer :/ you beat the whole game with the same type of armor ,and the same type of weapons , also no RPG-elements , and this sucks.
3)Space Marine Armors and helmets- dont they look just to odd ? especially the helmets, they look so awful compared to those used in DOW I , or DOW II ; also take a look at the corvus helmet , WTH IS THAT ?! it looks so terribly evem compared to table-top models.
4)Lack of weapons- 4 types of melee weapons ? really wtf, where are the powerfists , the lightning claws, the combat shield's,power sword's ? also where are the combi-weapons , the flamer , the shotgun ? and why there arent no unique weapons ? (unique bolters, unique chainswords etc)
5)IG looks like s**t

[Shuma]

3: With the exception of the beakie helmet, that's how Space Marine helmets look. The ones in DoW I and DoW II are the ones that look wrong, it only takes a look at the cover of the Space marine codex to see that.

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/252/spacemarine5theditionco.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/spacemarine5theditionco.jpg/)

And i'm damn glad that Relic FINALLY nailed the Space marine helmet, while the ones in DoW II are pretty good(the ones in DoW I were horrible imo) they're not how Space marine helmets are supposed to look, so i'm happy to have the real deal in this game.

Agreed about pretty much everything else though, with the exception of:


9 hours ..it just ain't enough

But that's mostly because i got bored of the campaign because it got extremely repetitive, and even then i finished it in 7-8 hours, not 9.

[Slade_Templar]

1 9 hours is plenty of time for most people I think, I kinda think games are usually a drag after 10-12, especially a shooter like this.

2 The customization was all of those weapon piles everywhere, letting you pretty much select your loadout

3 Um, ok.

4 More weapons would have been good, but then what would they add in the sequels?

5 Huh?

[Flamerol]

Shuma, now try to compare the helmet from the game to the helmet from the codex cover, eh ?

Also can i ask you how long did it took for you to complete the dawn of war 2 campaign ?

[Shuma]

I'll do better, i'll grab a model from the game, and take a higher res picture from the codex's cover and compare them:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6412/spacemarinehelmet.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/spacemarinehelmet.jpg/)

Sweet Mother of all that's holy and pure they're the same! I mean jesus, they even have that bullet hole on the forehead!

And i don't remember how long it took me to complete the DoW II campaign, probably because it was awful, Chaos Rising campaign probably took me like 10 hours though.

[Slade_Templar]

Chaos Rising campaign probably took me like 10 hours though.

Ah man, my favorite campaign by far. So good.

[DannyLee94]

Shuma, now try to compare the helmet from the game to the helmet from the codex cover, eh ?

Yes, they're almost identical; your point being?


Also can i ask you how long did it took for you to complete the dawn of war 2 campaign ?

DoW2 was an RPG/RTS hybrid and the RPG elements naturally meant it would be fairly long. SM is a 3PS, totally different story.

[Starscream]

4 More weapons would have been good, but then what would they add in the sequels?

Something that would justify the price we are paying for a triple A product... this time.

[shrp]

After some time in multiplayer I think it's safe to say it's way beter than sp. The levels look great, weapons sound right, the only flaw are those damned heretics transmitting disco over microphones. But I am still hoping there will be a "40k tactics" mod with crouching and destructible cover, perhaps the teleport beacon will finally come into play :-) It offers fun for many hours.

[Flamerol]

Okay, this is game need a 100% positive review, it's the best warhammer 40k game and relic did a very good job ( sarcasm)

[Shuma]

Wow, it's almost as if someone was implying that this game was perfect.

B-but... Weird, i don't see anyone doing that. What sorcery is this!?

[Flamerol]

Okay.

[Starscream]

Its the taint of the warp i say...Exterminatus now!!!

[Flamerol]

edit*

[Jaimas]

And I'm pretty sure that if any game Relic released was perfect, Chris, you'd either find some obscure balance nitpick to obsess over, or we wouldn't see you post ever again.

My biggest issue with this game is this - ignoring the obvious things like bubonic lag and such:

It launched with FIVE MAPS, for a game that is supposed to be all about its robust community. /tg/ alone could keep this game humming for years, but that just isn't being taken advantage of due to how limited the game is in this regard. It's been nearly a month with no map-pack either, which means this lack of maps is putting it woefully behind other, similar games, with much more diversity. As an example, Gears 3 launched with ten maps with the literal guarantee of more on the way within a month - and more after that. Right out the gate, that's more variety than SPESS.

Do you see players make the most of those five maps? Hell to the yes you do, but those maps are all there is and there's no variation whatsoever - by the time your average player gets to level 41, the thrill is dead, and nobody wants to lulz around on those same five maps again (if I never see Shattered Bridge again, it will be too soon). The second that smart players set up which areas have the best firing lines or most abusable camping spots (and those aren't mutually exclusive), the maps quickly devolve into a game of "lol here's where we set up devastators and camp the map until a competent Assault or Tactical drives us out of here or Ninja caps our points."

[Gorb]

To be fair, I consider Shattered Bridge to possibly the weakest map in terms of map design because it promotes rushing the central point in addition to favouring Devastators heavily. That said, that may change if you gather a team organised enough to go around underground and assault their base control point. It's somewhat hard to do it by yourself (so much trying by Gorbles. So much :().

However, your point is valid. DoW II had the same criticism when it was released, and given Relic's support in terms of additional maps there, I hope to see the same additions to Space Marine.

[Jaimas]

I hope to the Dark Gods you're right about that, Gorby.

[Akranadas]

Biggest Issue is lack of Eldar, I mean. Really? How am I meant to enjoy this game Relic. How selfish.

More serious, I miss Warcries. Where is the "FOR THE EMPEROR!" as I rush into a pile of 20 orks?

[Skullcap]

Space marine needed some more game modes, a capture point mode and team deathmatch isn't really cutting it when you see other games having a conquest mode, bomb target/stop bomber, free for all, capture the flag and no space hulk mode, damn them to the warp.

No, exterminatus maybe a new "gamemode" buts its just last stand without the level grinding and unique weapons with waves of npcs and some "oh, you might wanna go over thar to get moar points" mode.

Jaimas while I might not agree with his other posts in the forums is correct in regards to lack of maps, itsn ot that its just 5 maps, its just those 5 maps are complete mirrors on each position on the map and there is barely any difference between them to be honest, I shoudn't have to resort to boredom and pull out bolt pistol on my devestator/havoc and start killing people at the centre of the bridge map so often!

[Gorb]

If you're complaining about a game mode that isn't out yet, and then criticising the game for it's lack of game modes . . . I'm not entirely sure what to say.

[Shuma]

You know, i remember months ago when it was said that Space Marine would come out in september, or 2011, i'm not sure, i said that Space Marine needed more polish time, what followed was a post by someone from Relic saying "5-6 months is a lot of polish time" and a bunch of posts saying "Silly Shuma, why are you always so dumb?" well, not exactly with those words but what i'm saying is "ha! Who's laughing now?"

... Well not me, since you know, i also bought the game and am disappointed, but point still stands, needed more dev time.

[Skullcap]

@Gorb

My point was, exterminatus mode isn't going to hold much ground, it should have been arguably there from the beginning and considering from the information given from it its not much more than a glorified Dawn of war 2 last stand mode, without the leveling and unique weapons/abilities since everything you unlocked from release is interchangerable between exterminatus and the other two modes.

So the count goes to 3 game modes...that is generally what comes with any other FPS (yes, space marine is a FPS, just slightly different angle) as standard.

While I won't say the developers are lazy, since I know they are not, I would however note that space marine by content alone seems to have been rushed to get a retail date in september to avoid being completely and utterly overshadowed by the two other AAA titles in Oct/Nov, Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3, which we all know if space marine had a date around both of them wouldn't be as likely as keeping a candle lit in a hurricane.

Considering the widespread issues with lag and host migrating on the PC which is practically a identical bodged system which was used in dawn of war 2, I'm finding it hard to see space marine being able to retain a feasable playerbase to extend its life to promote a sequel or even DLC content.

It certainly has the makings of a title which could stay around, its all there under the woodwork, but there just isn't enough or going to be enough in a sufficient amount of time to prolong its life.

I've fully enjoyed it, I hit lvl 38 or 39 in multiplayer with only the final armours to unlock, which just wasn't enough to keep me going with the lack of map varient and lack of gamemodes available and a very much doubt exterminatus is going to hold me over more than a week before it gets terribly old just trying to kill waves and waves of AI to get a shiny high score.

[Gorb]

Out of interest, if The Last Stand had never been released . . . would you still be slamming Exterminatus for being a copy of another generic wave-based game mode? The similarities Exterminatus shares with TLS is basically the same thing it shares with every other wave-based game, in that it is wave-based.

Furthermore, I am tired of hearing two things. The first is "this should have been in from the beginning". If you feel or felt this way, you shouldn't have bought the game until it included the content you were willing to pay X amount of money for.

The second is "game X is going to kill game Y". Dawn of War II survived Starcraft II, Heroes of Newerth survived far too many games to count (based on the amount of "game X will kill this game" threads I've read on the subject). You cannot say "this game is going to be so popular that no-one is going to bother buying something else". Why? Because of two reasons.


people don't generally limit themselves to a single game, and
games often have enough dissimilarities or differences that allow people to buy more than one of them. Similar to the above point, but different.

@Shuma: game content isn't "polish" ;)

As far as I can see, the game is incredibly polished, barring some issues with P2P that arguably is down to peoples' Internet connections - with a few outliers involving a lack of region and/or ping-filtering (which I still want Relic to implement), and a couple of specialised technical issues with regards to disappearing terrain and the odd game crash.

I am eagerly awaiting more game content, however. Should be interesting to see how the game evolves in the following months. This is, of course, if the inherent negativity from about ten forum members doesn't manage to kill the game's active population before then :p

EDIT: incidentally, Exterminatus looks neat. Didn't get a chance to play it though, damn queue going in the wrong direction. Pocktio ate my face at Multiplayer instead.

[Slade_Templar]

While I won't say the developers are lazy, since I know they are not, I would however note that space marine by content alone seems to have been rushed to get a retail date in september to avoid being completely and utterly overshadowed by the two other AAA titles in Oct/Nov, Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3, which we all know if space marine had a date around both of them wouldn't be as likely as keeping a candle lit in a hurricane.

Y'know, not EVERYONE loves the kind of game-play that CoD and BF3 provide. I wouldn't say Space Marine is very close to either.

[Skullcap]

@Gorb: Never did say I was unhappy about my purchase, as I did say, I was happy with what I played abeit abit short and felt in the end more game modes and variety was needed to keep it going. It was £28 infact for my purchase and I'm not particularly bothered about paying that for space marine, however justifying a higher price would have been pushing it.

I actually enjoyed last stand in dawn of war 2, I've bought the DLC for it, I've got a roster of lvl 20 characters and cleared both maps to last wave. But again you can only do that for so long aswell. Exterminatus is similar, its waves of enemy AI with objects which pop up for you to go off and do to collect more points, it doesn't require levels to progress through it and it doesn't have a seperate weapon roster or uniques abilities as its mentioned experience and unlocks will be countered for both exterminatus and the other two modes.

It also doesn't take a scientist to see that exterminatus mode is being put in to prolong to life of the game, your saying your sick of hearing "this should have been in from the beginning" but I would say that why is exterminatus needed 30days after the game to prolong the life of the game, its clearly saying "We feel the original game doesn't have enough content so we need to release a new mode at X number of days to keep our game going". I'd also point out while you are equally sick of hearing those lines I also get equally tired of fans who come forward and defend the developer and the game with "well you shouldn't have bought the game then if you didn't think x y z was enough". I love relic and their games as much as the next guy, but I not blind to the obvious.



@Slade

Doesn't particularly hold arguement when space marine uses a similar perk system with similar abilities which are 40k'ed and renamed, the only difference being its a 40k theme and it swaps 1st for 3rd person. I suppose I would concede slightly that space marine isn't close, but the only thing which makes it not similar or the same is the theme, aka 40k and the lack of gamemodes.

But I'll stop here, clearly comparing it to other game titles which are successful isn't a means in which to check or ensure space marines will have a prolonged life nore is having criticism about the game seemingly wanted.

[Gorb]

Skullcap, how can you be tired of someone giving you financial advice? :p

If you don't feel the game has enough content, you don't buy it. If you feel it has enough content, you buy it. This simply means, when it comes to criticising the game, you say that the game didn't hold enough content to retroactively justify your purchase. I'm not defending the game when I'm saying this, I'm telling you to be smart with your money. After all, if you hold off on purchasing the game until the price is lower, or it has more content, that is sensible, no?

Criticising extra content just because it's timed for post-release is somewhat premature, given that I've seen statements by mac_bug, a Relic developer, who said they'd been pulling something daft like 72 hour weeks to get Exterminatus done on time. This implies that it wasn't at all intended for the initial release and that they've been working overtime to honour their promise to the playerbase that the DLC would be released 30 days after the game went retail.

Furthermore, "you can only do things for so long" is good and well, but "so long" varies massively for each person. I've spent hours on TLS, especially since Retribution, and I still don't have a level 20 character yet. I will probably spend hours on Exterminatus, because it takes the fun of the SP (massively amounts of killy killy death death) and adds to it a co-op element. I like games like that. You may not, or you may get bored. You are you, and I am me. Horde mode, from Gears of War, doesn't have as much content (apparently) as TLS (due to the lack of RPG progression) . . . and yet people accept that as a perfectly functional, fleshed-out game mode. In fact, a lot of people love it. I certainly had fun with it in GoW 2. However, just because a hybrid RPG game mode from an RTS game developed on a different engine has more content, doesn't automatically mean that Horde or Exterminatus are somehow lacking.

Finally, there are some weapon challenges that seem to be designed for Exterminatus. Some people have unlocked them already (and I'm not entirely sure how), but things like getting 15 multi-kills (Meltagun) seem to indicate that this is designed to be attained in such a game mode as Exterminatus.

[Skullcap]

Very good points Gorb, I'll concede to it. Though I don't feel I've wasted money on purchasing space marine, I've certainly enjoyed it, probably the same with exterminatus barring the matchmaking holds out well on the PC side of things. Maybe I'm just more disgruntled by that more than anything and my annoyance extends over towards lack of content. Content wise it wasn't entirely clear 100% on what was going to be in space marine on release, exterminatus mode, a co-op mode had been pretty covert on information and one moment it was said there would be no co op and then the next there is. I also bought space marine for the single player and multiplayer second, but we know from past experience if a FPS game is going to include multiplayer they need a solid framework and a handful of modes to keep it going.

In regards to multi-kills on the melta, there is plenty of bottlenecks were players will come bounding around where you can get multi-kill count with the melta, you just have to be quite fluid and keep moving otherwise you just get single kills, a good map on the capture point mode to do this is the circular one, instead of going for point A or C go for the opposite near the enemies spawn, charge in and melt 3-4 people are are clustered around the flag point near the stone blocks.

[Slade_Templar]

Doesn't particularly hold arguement when space marine uses a similar perk system with similar abilities which are 40k'ed and renamed, the only difference being its a 40k theme and it swaps 1st for 3rd person. I suppose I would concede slightly that space marine isn't close, but the only thing which makes it not similar or the same is the theme, aka 40k and the lack of gamemodes.

TTK in Space Marine isn't even close to BF3 and CoD; I wouldn't say they play anywhere close to the same, because I've played them all. However Final Vengeance in CoD and in Space Marine is pretty damn annoying.

[Akranadas]

Honestly, after playing the game for the last couple of days and trying to like it as much as I could. I can't help but feel that the game falls flat.

It's not that it's a bad game, in fact is a good game but its not a great game. It fails to live up to the standards of presenting the W40K universe like Dawn of War has, it has the same silly story line that Relic has refreshed countless times "it's always a trap!". The world just doesn't feel alive, it feels lifeless and we're doing nothing more than moving through corridors to fight through a horde of dull sounding orks who repeat the same 3 lines over and over again (come on Relic, DoW2's Orks were great, what gives?) to have our Ultramarine slice through them and move to the next room to do battle.

It gets dull really quickly, it's due to Space Marine's, or more specifically; Ultramarines themselves; they are simply dull protagonists. Considering we went from Characters like Angelos, Thaddus and even Cryus to Titus and his brood, Relic really step down from the mantle of cool characters. With DoW1, we had the tough as nails Force Commander Gabriel Angelos who screams "For the Emperor" as he slaughters the enemy of man, to Titus who simply grunts and yells. Where are the Space Marines who are inspired by the grand tales of Emperor? Where are the War cries which as embedded into the fiction through all the countless tales that have been told?

Don't get me started on the Orks. You would think that the Ultramarines, a character that has existed since Space Marines existed would know that Orks are at least capable of being more than a force of peons who walk into machine gun fire and they are at least able to form strategy *cough* Armageddon *cough*, yet Titus is surprised. The Orks themselves don't feel like Orks in the sense we've got to know them, they are simply green things with a target on them, a speed bump to the next dialogue scene. Not once have I heard a Waaagh!! or even a Dakka Dakka. Come on Relic you guys nailed it with the Orks in DoW2 with their voices, why did you not continue it?

As for the story itself, it's full of complete silliness and not the type of silliness that makes sense, but the type that doesn't. Minor Spoiler here. At one point Capitan Titus commenders a squadaron of Valkyrie gun ships, only to watch majority of them get destroy just so he can a tiny bit closer to his objective. Yet, about 20 minutes before we were told how the IG's air support was almost all destroyed and we helped them get it back. Then Titus in his wisdom sets them back again... I though Space Marines were supposed to be smart, but this game makes them look like bullies who simply use the citizens of the Imperium to further their own objectives while not caring about the grand picture (which Titus helps fuck up even more later).

I really wanted to like this game, but it felt too much like a bad horror movie, where I simply wanted to take the Main Character and slap them around for going in that room when the killer is right behind them.

[Cortlendt]

Campaign lacks sandboxed fights and more "massive" battles. Some engagements with IG vs Orks or Chaos vs Orks are quite nice but they are quite few.

Also, for a Forge World, it is quite empty. Someone did provide a great analogy in terms of "giant empty warehouse".

I've finished the campaign in two weekends and have forgotten about the game already.

Don't laugh, but I enjoyed and replayed Rites of War several times and also Fire Warrior was a nice game to me.

[Akagi_Ryu]

While I am unable to give my review of the singleplayer fully, being able to play up to the point with the thunderhammer, I can say that the gameplay is pretty much a Corridor->Cutscene->Corridor->Cutscene->Oh look, big baddie Ork 1 on 1 (mostly)->Moar corridors->Big baddie orks, but this time there's 2!

Thing is? I like it. This was exactly what I thought it would be and this is exactly what I got. I wasn't really expecting multiple important choices or some deep, deep conversation. I was expecting a Devil May Cry or Diablo-like-TPP and... this is pretty much what Space Marine is. It's not OMG-great, it's not bad, it's good and I enjoy it.

Given, I didn't have extremally high expectations to begin with, as if this was some second coming of the Emperor or whatever, so, yeah.

Now the multiplayer is more or less great aside from the anoyances that are allready listed in more topics than I can count so I won't even start, but if I didn't like it, I wouldn't be level 33 right now, heading thowards that lovely 41~

EDIT: Ok, this needs echoing, Relic dropped the ball on Orks, they're not orky enough. They're not really orky at all actually. They're the plain, boring, stupid bad guys. Bad Relic, no cookie for you.

[Pocktio]

I think the fault with SP boils down to a lack of immersion. The gameplay and visuals are superb, there's just little to tie it together.

I felt like a Space Marine, in an arena. I did not feel like a Captain crushing an ork waaagh, before defending the world and it's souls from the warp. The orks just felt like a green target sea, I never really cared what they were up to. They didn't seem menacing or bent on destruction of what I should care about defending. Similarly with Chaos, oh so there's a warp gate? Ok sure I'll blow it up. No sense of urgency or consequence anywhere.

[Skullcap]

I agree on the ork voice acting, it just was a complete let down, no offense intended to my London brethern, but the orks sounded more like a bunch of angry Londoners after a england rugby match gone bad at the pub rather than orks.

Lines like "come and get me space maaarriiinnne" just grated on me after awhile.

Where was the "humiez, GET EM LADZ!" or "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRGH!" *choppa to face*

Gretchins were the worse out of the orks, growing up with dawn of war 1s and 2s gretchin announcer it just didn't feel right.

Titus, my dear Titus...why don't you have any expressions, where is your personality? Is voice didn't seem to change in tone through the entire game, reminded me of a college teacher I used to have.

[Hirmetrium]

I will confess, like most have, that Space Marine lacked something. I don't know what that something is, especially since most games i've played recently seem to lack it. Resistance 3 felt like a slow, sloppy mess of a game with some cool bits added in, and Gears of War 3 has been so slow and boring so far that I've given up at the start of act 2.

But, despite that, I was and still am properly excited and stuck into Space Marine. The multiplayer is a blast - shooting people down with lascannons frantically while raptors strike from the skies and my battle brothers are all around me, and avoiding giant plasma cannon blasts, or smashing a devastator in the fact with a thunder hammer - it's all beautiful and amazing.

Single player is viseral, and because I'm not a sound man, I love just seeing orks heads explode in a burst of gore before they can even let out a roar. The warboss was sufficiently orky, even if his boyz were dead before they could reciprocate - Chaos space marines felt meaty and sinking a power axe into them was satisfying. I was a little upset when...
Sidonis went the way of the dodo, since he was the coolest character always saying the things you wanted to say! All these worked well, and I can't actually fault the game beyond the sound. Titus was unyielding and unemotional even at the prospect of his fall to Chaos - something I'm sure most Space Marines would of cried out against.

While the game doesn't match the fluff as much as I hoped, it is still a brutal and satisfying foray into the world of 40k from a new perspective. Space Marine should be remembered for being a good game - rather than another Fire Warrior (which it most definately isn't).

I'm not however going to defend the game. I think it deserves some of the critisizm it is receiving - what I still don't understand, particularly from some publications, is how the graphics are "bad". It was one of PC Gamers complaints, which I feel is stupid and unjustified. Space Marine looks great on high graphics settings. It's possibly one of the best looking games out on PC at the moment.

[Jaimas]

I really don't get the "bad graphics" thing either. Is it just because so much of Graia is industrial and covered in blasted wasteland? The game still has some beautiful visuals and I dig the attention to tiny details in the game. I thought it was pretty boss graphically, personally.

[BigSteve]

The only people I've seen/heard complain were too thick to change the aspect in the graphics options, so their game would of been skewed to some funny res on their moniters. Personally I think the game looks great, running at full spec on everything. When I compare it to current blockbuster titles, it definitely holds its own. The BF3 beta is the only game in the past few weeks that could even come close to space marine infact.