It's Time We Discussed It: Devastators.

[Jaimas]

Listen, Devastators are remarkably overpowered compared to the other Marine classes, to the point where I see them taken over both Assaults and Tacticals routinely, and it's time we had a discussion on why this is and how to fix it. And because I feel like it, I'm throwing in some visual aids. Hopefully this leads to a productive discussion on how to improve class balance and not an irksome back-and-forth spree of awesome-facing. Enjoy.

PART THE FIRST: A TREATISE ON DEVASTATOR/HAVOC DURABILITY

If you haven't seen the events in the following image when playing multiplayer, you've either been entirely confined to Private games or are a goddamned liar:

http://x11.xanga.com/c95e115478232278825135/w222108896.png

Let's be fair here: Devastators are durable. What is talked about less often is that they are, by far, the single most durable class in Space Marine, bar none, being on-average 1.5 to three times harder to kill than other classes. In and of itself, this isn't a bad thing; they are loaded with heavy weapons, two of which require deployment to get the most out of, so they need that to compensate for the theoretical lack of dodge capability, right?

Well... No. Not really. Mostly because it's made them too durable.

The problem occurs when you see the patently ridiculous things that the combination of Iron Halo and Feel No Pain allows for. A Devastator or Havoc with this combination of Perks can stand right on top of a grenade blast, and, barring intervention from Master-Crafted Wargear, flat-out tank about 2-3 grenades before his armor's even breached. With the above combination, a Vengeance Launcher will take upwards of 6 direct-hit bombs to kill a single Havoc/Devastator.

What this generally means is that it's not possible to flush an entrenched Devastator or Havoc with explosives unless you spam the bejeezus out of them with Favor of the Armory, crank up the damage with Master-Crafted Wargear, Vengeance Projectiles, or, more commonly, some combination of the above. Blind Grenades will allow a player to blind a Havoc or Devastator, but if the Heavy Weapons Marine in question is guarding a narrow defile (like Point B on Shattered Bridge), this may not necessarily be sufficient to stop them from tearing you to indistinct gibs.

This is problematic, but not necessarily broken in and of itself.

The broken part comes when you see how much durability Iron Halo/Chaos Icon adds to just about every situation.
Here's another visual aid, showing a situation that's happened to a bunch of players:

http://xd0.xanga.com/f40e162737732278825375/w222109083.png

Generally-speaking, the sheer durability they have means is that other methodologies for dealing with entrenched Devastators simply don't work very well. Assuming an Iron Halo, a Devastator will survive the initial shot of say, a Meltagun most of the time unless a player was very careful to deplete their shields a bit first (which if they were, effectively guarantees that they lose the element of surprise that's oh-so-critical when ambushing Devastators/Havocs). This generally means that unless a player ambushes, siezes initiative, and works fast, they're going to get absolutely destroyed by that Havoc or Devastator the second it realizes the jig's up. For many Tactical players, this takes the form of using a Melta blast followed by switching to another weapon to finish the job.

Ignoring for a moment that lag issues render Melta and Sniper use a questionable option as well (since it's all-too-easy to have a Melta blast turned into a glancing hit or miss), this generally means that the traditional counters for an entrenched heavy weapons unit are ALSO out of the question, since they'll survive a dead-on headshot from the Lascannon, a point-blank Melta Blast, or barrage of hits from a Power Sword or Chainsword.

God help you if you encounter a Havoc or Devastator carrying Iron Halo/Feel No Pain/Combat Drugs.

This doesn't leave a lot of options for players engaging skilled Devastators/Havocs. The best options for dealing with them are the Plasmagun (rapid fire will bring down shields in short order), the Plasma Cannon (standard shots still do a lot of damage), and Bolter with Kraken Bolts, none of which are really a perfect solution when dealing with a Devastator or Havoc who's really on the ball and knows how to control a battlefield situation. In short, a competent team of these Heavies will ream an entire team in short order, and I've seen it happen on Hab Center, Waste Processing, and Shattered Bridge on more occasions than I'd care to count. I know this because I played Devastator and actively participated in these Spawncamps, which led to things like a 1000/0 score on Waste Processing earlier.

This is bad because a lot of options which should by all accounts be a slam dunk against a Devastator or Havoc simply aren't viable. Iron Halo/Chaos Icon Devastators/Havocs cannot be one-shotted by anything but Assaults/Raptors with Thunder Hammers/Demon Mauls and Killing Blow, which, due to Space Marine's horrifically bad netcode, are an extremely chonky option since the game may arbitrarily decide to count your dead-on hits as glancing blows or misses because of this game's flagrant lag issues - or a charged shot from the Plasma Cannon, which using is more of an art than a science and rather easy to avoid for anyone with a modicum of common-sense when employed outside of a tight spot - assuming you don't blow yourself up with it in the process.

Iron Halo is broken. There is no denying this simple fact. As long as it provides the sheer, balls-out durability it provides, the Devastator/Havoc will continue to reign supreme.

Note that this isn't the only reason Havocs and Devastators are filthy IMBA. Stay tuned for tomorrow, when I discuss Havoc/Devastator Melee, and bring more visual aids to the table.

[Caeltos]

YOU think Devastators are imbalanced.

I personally think Tacticals in the hand of a good player melts faces.

But so does Assault Marines on the other hand. All subjective and dependant on the players skill.

[Jaimas]

YOU think Devastators are imbalanced.

Refute my aforementioned points then.


I personally think Tacticals in the hand of a good player melts faces.

But so does Assault Marines on the other hand. All subjective and dependant on the players skill.

Tacticals are great. So are Assaults. This does not change that Devastators are several orders of magnitude more powerful in skilled hands, nor does it in any way invalidate the points made above.

[Hirmetrium]

Iron Halo is a massive commitment - a perk slot can be amazing when filled, and while it is undoubtably a taker, it is passive and ultimately does not improve combat ability whatsoever. Throwing a single grenade against an opponent is a deterrent - not intended to kill, but to force them to back off. It will unsetup a HB dev and let you face them easier.

Second, if you are relying on a single melta blast, you are in for a horrible shock. Use a god damn combat knife to finish them off if your that close, and combine it with serrated knife.

Third, sniping is a viable counter. Lascannon headshot should kill them instantly (I'm pretty sure it does - I've been in a few sniper shootouts). Stalker boltgun is more accurate than a HB. Plasma has a travel time.

Devastators are no more effective than an skilled assault marine or a well equipped tactical marine. While yes, it takes two shots, that is the point of the perk - to make you survive longer. Shoot again and they will die. In addition, devastators have no HP whatsoever - once their armour is gone, they are pretty much dead in the water.... unless they shoot you first.

It's also very hard to mention counter points if you do not mention a build. How you approach killing a devastator is entirely dependant on his second perk and his weapon.

[Caeltos]

It's subjective opinion, not a fact. If there's a big plays from each corresponding players, either one can emerge victorious.

Your point is based on your own experience, thus I'll probably just draw the conclusion that you're approaching devastators the wrong fashion and you need to improve your game.

[BigSteve]

If you want to look at these subjectively, you need to remove player skill as a variable and assume both players are of equal calibre/experience.

I believe the 3 different classes should excel at particular aspects of combat (not exclusively, but the predominant "class" for that type of engagement, supporting by player meta).

At this stage I think ASM excel in close combat and map control/mobility. Combined with perks and gear, they can even compete at a short-medium range firefight which is good. Key word is compete, not dominate.

I think Tac's are spot on, they have a good range of weapons and perks that allow them to forfill a jack of all trades approach to combat.

Dev's however, dominate ranged encounters (utterly, dont argue that a stalker boltgun trumps a las cannon when player skill is considered equal), dominate medium ranged encounters, and compete very well in close ranged combat. Across the board I believe they are equipped more so than any other class to competantly compete on average, across all situations.

[Warboss Road]

Mentlegen who've been refuting Jaimas's position here, I've been playing the game as well, and quite frankly, I've encountered similar problems as he has (Mainly because we play together on the game)
I'll vouch for him because I've had Devastators with Iron Halo/Chaos Icon and Feel No Pain survive a Final Vengeance. Granted, they weren't at the epicenter of the blast, but they were close enough where they should have been killed even at full health and sheilds. Again, this can be chalked up to the Halo/Icons soaking most of the damage, along with taking a huge chunk of their health. However, when I looked at the "Who Killed You" Screen, I see that the Devastator/Havoc still has a good chunk of his health left.
I also gave the heavy weapons classes (FNP and IH/CI as my Perks) a spin myself and found myself surviving hits that would have killed me thrice over had I been a different class or lacked FNP and IH/CI. Three Grenades right at my Feet? Left me with a decent amount of health. Almost hit directly by a fully charged Plasma Cannon Shot (It was off to the side by a bit)? Walked it off.

Edit: Big Steve also brings up a Valid point. Dev's/Hav's really fuck you up in ranged combat, looking at it subjectively. Plasma Cannons in particular have the tendency to kill anything in one direct hit that isn't another Dev/Hav with FNP and IH/CI. Again, speaking from personal experience here.

[hellic]

Devastators ARE overpowered. Too much durability with too much damage output (HBs kill things fast at all ranges).

Hirmetrium, read the tips while loading. "One Lascannon headshot kills everything EXCEPT Iron Haloed Devastators."

[Jaimas]

Iron Halo is a massive commitment - a perk slot can be amazing when filled, and while it is undoubtably a taker, it is passive and ultimately does not improve combat ability whatsoever. Throwing a single grenade against an opponent is a deterrent - not intended to kill, but to force them to back off. It will unsetup a HB dev and let you face them easier.

The problem, again, is that they can survive an entire grenade payload from a player without budging. needing 2 just to breach the shields on a Havoc/Devastator is the norm, more with the game's hilariously infamous lag-spikes.

Additionally, it doesn't force a Devastator to unpack. They will flinch for a half-second or so, but it doesn't force them to un-deploy.


Second, if you are relying on a single melta blast, you are in for a horrible shock. Use a god damn combat knife to finish them off if your that close, and combine it with serrated knife.

I'll be covering this tomorrow in-depth, noble Hirm, but Tactical Melee is a joke and they will lose to Devastators in melee about 70% of the time without Serrated Blade, and they lose over half the time even with it due to Devastator access to Feel No Pain and Iron Halo. Devastators are incredibly powerful in close-combat and frankly far more effective at it than they have a right to be considering that they're carrying the biggest guns on the battlefield and highest durability already, but rest-assured it will be discussed in-depth then. For now, I intend to focus specifically upon the issue of Devastator durability and its influence on gameplay.


Third, sniping is a viable counter. Lascannon headshot should kill them instantly (I'm pretty sure it does - I've been in a few sniper shootouts). Stalker boltgun is more accurate than a HB. Plasma has a travel time.

Lascannon headshot is not instantly fatal against a Devastator with Iron Halo. It is against Assaults with Impenetrable. I've labbed it multiple times. It takes at least 2 shots to down a Devastator with a Lascannon; three if you go for body shots.


Devastators are no more effective than an skilled assault marine or a well equipped tactical marine. While yes, it takes two shots, that is the point of the perk - to make you survive longer. Shoot again and they will die. In addition, devastators have no HP whatsoever - once their armour is gone, they are pretty much dead in the water.... unless they shoot you first.

Incorrect, Hirmetrium.

Ignoring, for a moment, the lag issues that make melee even more problematic than it is, Devastators have brutally effective stun attacks that will interrupt an Assault's attacks and their damage is superior to a non-Serrated Blade Tactical. Throw in Feel No Pain, and they will reliably beat Tacticals in melee handily. Throw on Iron Halo as well (the most common build I've seen Assaults run), and they will reliably beat Sword Assaults in close-combat unless the Assault has Zeal or Death From Above and manages to get the drop on the Devastator.

Whilst not quite as pertinent to the above, my friend Mouse was running a Sniper Devastator Build he called The Mighty Boot (Stomp Speed Boost/Stomp Damage Boost) that could reliably beat Road, who was running a Chainsword Assault with Swordsman's Zeal and Final Vengeance (common build this), in our lab tests roughly a third of the time. Again, we'll be discussing Devastator melee in detail tomorrow, and I would appreciate it if we could focus specifically on the subject in hand, which is the Devastator/Havocs' durability, but - yes - Devastators are mighty powerful in melee and notably more so than Tacticals, which need a perk just to be effective at it.


It's also very hard to mention counter points if you do not mention a build. How you approach killing a devastator is entirely dependant on his second perk and his weapon.

This is true, but the overpowering majority of Havocs/Devastators I've seen run Iron Halo/Feel No Pain or Iron Halo/Artificer Armor. A few run Iron Halo/Weapon Upgrade Perk, but the constant in these is Iron Halo. A noteworthy trait about the Assaults is that none of the Havoc's weapon perks have ANY effect whatsoever on the class' damage potential. Plasma Charge Upgrade increases the Plasma Cannon's Charge Rate, but not damage; Heat Sink increases the number of shots it can fire before overheating. Heavy Bolter upgrades provide faster deployment and allow it to fire longer without overheating; Lascannon upgrades let it fire quicker and with slightly better accuracy between shots. None of these change the Devastator/Havoc's alpha strike damage, and not taking them does nothing to hinder the Devastator or Havoc capability to hold down areas - the only one that even comes close to this is the Heavy Bolter stabilizer upgrade.

Putting it differently, the Devastator and Havoc have the same high durability regardless of weapon chosen, and weapon perks are not expressly necessary for them to excel at their role - this is compared to Tactical and Assault weapon upgrades, which provide much more dramatic benefits such as Health leeching, instantly killing a target on a direct hit, or providing damage or accuracy boosts.

[Skullcap]

Well..he's right in one regards of iron halo being a powerful tool for a devestator, I got bored of carrying around the heavy bolter on the bridge map and ran around the map killing people with the bolter and just walked through the grenades and vengeance explosions. However at the same time I've been killed in equal measure, with a heavy bolter I can't move and normally get gimped by a melta tactical or another assault coming from behind. Using the plasma cannon I'm subject to trigger happy syndrome and end up overheating the plasma cannon, oh by the way, you complain about iron halo, how about the 2nd perk on the plasma cannon which makes the bolts homing?

The lascannon is well, in my opinion OP, its ridiculasly powerful and can kill most things in one shot and two if you gimp the shot, hell sometimes you don't even have to aim.

But to be honest, I'm taking iron halo so I can actually survive the damn encounters, have you played a round as a devestator without iron halo on? See how that goes, you die so fast its not even funny, the iron halo is also there to prevent you from being one shotted by other lascannon wielding devs/havocs and most teams have the crack shot shooters to deal with the situation. Incidentally the plasma cannons shots do far less on splash damage than they do direct hits and only the charged shots do as much as master crafted nades.

I also would say that a tactical with a stalker bolter is just as lethal if the skill is there and using the 2nd perk makes the stalker bolter ridiculasly powerful, aimed well and you got a headshot each kill and I have seen that happen, actually I've seen more devs get killed me included by stalker bolter enemies than lascannons in the matches I been in so I don't think its out the question that devs purely dominate range.

[Thorno]

Tactical with both Bolter perks is hilarious.

HB devs are all like "hurr ima brace myself and destroy your face", well sir, I'm going to raise you a superpowered Bolter with pinpoint accuracy.

I think devs are fine.


Devastators ARE overpowered.

In your opinion, yes?

[Skullcap]

I agree Thorno on the bolter, got both perks on mine, lvl 36 atm, just running around the map gunning people down with no lose of aim bolter, its wonderful.

[hellic]

Hirm and Caeltos show their true colors (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?262728-Devestators-Bolt-Pistol-(or-quot-thats-a-dick-build-hirm-quot-))! Heretics!

[Thorno]

37 here. When I first got the second perk I thought this must be cheating or something. First time I got over 20 kills.

EDIT: The detailed diagram of the Meltagun in use in the OP is sort of the same thing that happens to me against anything when I'm using that thing. I swear you have to be an inch away from the target to kill.

[Shuma]

So what are the proposed changes?

[Gorb]

Whilst not quite as pertinent to the above, my friend Mouse was running a Sniper Devastator Build he called The Mighty Boot (Stomp Speed Boost/Stomp Damage Boost) that could reliably beat Road, who was running a Chainsword Assault with Swordsman's Zeal and Final Vengeance (common build this), in our lab tests roughly a third of the time. Again, we'll be discussing Devastator melee in detail tomorrow, and I would appreciate it if we could focus specifically on the subject in hand, which is the Devastator/Havocs' durability, but - yes - Devastators are mighty powerful in melee and notably more so than Tacticals, which need a perk just to be effective at it.I hate to state the obvious, but this build can obviously be sniped. Or otherwise shot. Because it lacks any of the survivability perks that you are calling the balance of into question. Hence, it isn't as much of a problem (if a problem at all), in my opinion, as you are making out.

I reserve comment on the Iron Halo issue until I play MP properly.

[konfeta]

ASM are plenty capable of dominating Devastators. Use the pistol, make sure you have a jump available when engaging them, and dodge the stomp. ASM are not a "I got in melee range I win" class. Jetpack and pistol are half of your arsenal.

[Carl]

The problem here isn't the Dev's durability. It's a mixture of people not knowing how to play their class and the No-Scope Lasdev/Run-and-Gun Plas Dev issue. A HB Dev because of their setup time, low moving DPS, and slow turning when setup can simply be danced around. Well played assaults are defintly the best at this, but all the maps offer the same opportunaties to Tac's as well.

The key is to get in close before they notice you then dance around them filling them with bullets/blades as you do. Even if you just stand there, if they where setup when you hit thenm they';ve no chance of wining the fight because they won;t get un-setup, turned and re-setup ion time to kill you, and without steup they don't have the DPS to win eithier.

Fix up the plas dev and las dev issues and none of this will be an issue. Dev's are meant and suceed admriablly at being ranged powerhouses. They're designed to win any kind of ranged duel and to shoot down anyone trying to charge at them head on. But they fail hard if you simply work around their sides and rears. I've got ganked no end of times by good assaults this way, and tacs have done similar. The problem is that DEv's are supposed to give up somthing in the way of mobility, flexability, and (depending on weapon), fireower over a specific range band to get this. In reaility the Current Las and Plas balance means this dosen't work out in practice.

[Shuma]

By the way, doesn't the plasma weapons charged shot strip all your armor even with the iron halo perk?

[konfeta]

Don't believe they do.

[hellic]

A HB Dev because of their setup time, low moving DPS, and slow turning when setup can simply be danced around.Heavy Bolter Expertise...what set-up time? And you don't turn slowly when you're not zoomed in (which you don't need to since they're running around and not shooting you).

[Carl]

If they've got that then they're missing one of those durability perks. Drop a couple of normal grenades at his feet. Even with the perk he's not tottally escaping, and while he's doing that fill him full of bullets. You'll win for sure. And setup, even without zoom you don't turn quite as fast as un-setup, so yes you can still dance them though it's not so easy. Love my SB for this as a tac though :p.

Of course we could go on forevver like this. The key really though is to never even attempt to engage head on a dev that knows your there unles you knwo your weapon + perk combo gives you a direct advantage over his weapon + perk combo. Come at him from the side or behind, or otherwise catch him distracted and even the FNP+IH combo won't save him. Without both he's even more vulnrable and you can get even sloppier with him. The issue is when you start running into hipshooting Las Dev and run and Gun Plas devs. Those are the slightly OTT ones. Unliked Perked HB Devs they're not giviong up a potentiol perk for the mobility and as such can stack better than Tac damage, the Best durability, and solid close range firepower together.

[hellic]

You're assuming the Dev will just stay in one position. HB Devs who camp in one place are noobs. With the expertise perk, you can afford to run around hunting for people, set-up in one second, finish them off in another three, and continue to hunt. If I run into a Tac who sees me, but hides/runs away, I won't stay in one spot for 30 seconds, hoping he'll pop back up. I'll either flank or cautiously check the corner (in case of melta).

[Caeltos]

Here's a tip for dealing with devastators

If you're about to go into the openfield (from cover), always initiate a roll. And always roll if you're going into cover. Lascannon people gets caught off-guard and can't catch up, or they will only get a shot at you at best. Devastators can maybe get a few shots, but sprinting targets are easier to hit. This maneuverability is applied to all classes. Once you've reached an oppropiate location, you can land a few popshots at him, or get a good position to flank the devastator.

I really don't see the fuzz about devastators, but that might be because I had a pre-determined routine and strategy to deal with them, and it paid off. Maybe it's just "y won't my bullrush work" when that's exactly what the devastators shines at.

[Gorb]

So yeah, level 4 (almost 5), had a blast. While people with weapons and perks unlocked may have an advantage to a certain extent, this advantage is completely mitigated, in my opinion, by the Copy Loadout feature. I managed to get Shapeshifter achievement (play as each of the three classes) within the first three respawns, and much fun was had with ASM/Thunderhammer loadouts and Meltagun/Bolter w. the dual-weapon perk.

It's all about the skill, really. And speaking of which (on-topic), Iron Halos are annoying. Incredibly so, when paired with other perks such as that annoying armour feedback damage perk or something as basic as Feel No Pain. However, I do not believe that they present a balance problem, as ASM are more than capable of wrecking their shit. I even managed it as a Tactical (with a Meltagun or Stalker Bolter) a coupla times, once I got the hang of dodging the stomp/out of their field of fire.

And this is me as a guy who has just unlocked the Stalker Bolter, and has barely any perks to choose from.

EDIT@below: it really is easy to dismiss someone's arguments as "lol u played against terribads", but that argument is somewhat lacking in substance. If you are an ASM and you are capable of dodging nades and/or the stomp, the Devastator is wrecked nomatter how he attempts to reposition (barring luck and/or intervention). If you are a Tactical and have the appropriate weapons (Meltagun, Stalker Bolter and possibly Plasma Gun? Didn't see anybody use that in the past few games I played), you have ample time to wreck their shit, even with an Iron Halo (bearing in mind that an Iron Halo takes up a perk slot, so you can't say OH WHAT IF HE HAS THESE TWO PERKS).
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/558667918536782184/18D682244926E01DF75A03560903AD640CFEE10E/Skills my friends, skills :p

[BigSteve]

You are playing against shitty Dev's then. At no point did you assume the dev will reposition, allow for interp or control your movement with nades or supression. A good dev will shoot infront of you/behind you and will use grenades to limit the cover you can/cannot get too. They also move.

[hellic]

Sure, I can beat Devs. If you're just plain better than them, Devs are hardly OMFGODMODE. But that doesn't make them balanced since you're at a higher skill level. The fact is, Devastators are the most durable class and have access to three weapons that pretty much rape at all ranges. The downside is supposed to be their mobility, right? That's just not the case. A smart Dev will be on the move and is even more effective.

[Gorb]

Also, because I can't be bothered editing again, and this deserves a post of it's own, remember this:

Devastators are supposed to be capable of getting kills as well. I realise that in an online game, if something kills you, or seems too hard to kill in certain situations, then it is obviously haxx and needs nerfing . . . but remember that they are players just like you, who deserve credit for their loadout choices and/or ingame skill as well.

[Jaimas]

Devastators are supposed to be capable of getting kills as well.

This... May be the antidepressants speaking, but... Did anyone in this thread state that the Devastators aren't..?

[Sabulum]

What? The issue is their loadout is stronger, not that its smarter or more skillful. Lascannons makes a dev into a durable sniper that can hold off ASM with boltpistol switch and stomp, and its impossible to go anything less than 2-1 with a plasmacannon.

Its one-hit kill weapons without very much skill and tons of durability and baseline mobility.

[Chad Ghostal]

Yeah, but they're easy as pie to kill as tacticals, and I don't even think tacticals are their counter. Most maps I just sneak around them and melta, if not 2 mastercrafted grenades kills them.

[coldplay]

Shuma: By the way, doesn't the plasma weapons charged shot strip all your armor even with the iron halo perk?

Just wanted to clear up some things
* All Plasma charged shots will strip shields from a Devastator with the Iron Halo perk.
* Two unperked grenades will kill a Devastator with Iron Halo and Feel No Pain. Just. Remember there is damage fall off on the AOE, as well.
* A proper Melta Gun blast will bring a Devastator with Iron Halo to 1/4 Health (knife, bullrush, or pistol will finish him off if you don't want to go for the second Melta shot)

[ImmortalChaos]

I personally think the Iron Halo/Chaos Icon is a balance issue, not so much because of it making devastators too strong (although I am feeling that it is one of a few things contributing to that)... but because it's so good that it's never worth it to take a different perk. Every one of my dev/havok loadouts take it... many of the other perks don't even seem to be worth a slot at all.

[Sturmhaubitze]

That I have to agree with. Unlike Feel No Pain, which only applies to certain damage, the Iron Halo applies to all damage, so it's always a better choice. So one possibility is to narrow its focus down to fewer damage types or situations, so that there's a reason to say 'Nah, I'll grab something else'.

[Arad]

* All Plasma charged shots will strip shields from a Devastator with the Iron Halo perk.

One of the loading screen tips says a charged plasmagun shot will strip shields of anything BUT iron halo devs. I haven't used my plasma gun enough (or had it used against me enough) to say for certain though.

In regards to the subject at hand, devastators require a special approach based on their weapons/perks and even the players themselves. Lasdev? They tend to have tunnel vision and can usually be bum rushed unless they're moving. I actually killed the same two lasdevs twice in a single game on the bridge by sneaking up behind them as a powersword assault with a charged plasma shot leading and stims giving melee damage (I made it a point of harassing/killing these two because they were making it a royal pain to claim the center). I have the most trouble with plasdevs, either playing peekaboo around a corner or using the accursed thing like a shotgun in melee range.

And I also second the boltgun with both weapon perks. I also sugguest the stalker with burstfire, if you can stay on target. With either of those two options I can usually strip a boltdev's armor before he realises he's actually in trouble, and by then it's too late. I've also had -hilarious- results with master crafted wargear and gift of the artificers (double grenades, uber grenades) as tac, but once your nades are gone, you're kinda substandard.

[Misiok]

I like dealing with run-and-gun plasma devs that remain unfazed by my melee or my bullets and kill me in point blank range (and survive) as well as from distance. And lascannon noscoping is fun as well. Granted, you dieto 2 hits without headshots, but take into account that most of the time during firefights there are also people who are not shooting lascannons and who manage to damage you, no matter how fast and often you roll. Then one lascannon shot and pew.

[Jaimas]

* Two unperked grenades will kill a Devastator with Iron Halo and Feel No Pain. Just. Remember there is damage fall off on the AOE, as well.

No, they don't. Assuming full armor, Halo, and FNP, you will only knock the Armor out and deal some health damage at best. In theory a pair could kill one, but in practice lag, movement, and the fact that you really can't place a grenade under someone means that it generally isn't possible to kill one with two grenades and no perks.

Seriously, Mouse and I labbed it a bunch, and I've both seen and experienced (when playing Devastator) too many times to believe the above is true. And that's not even factoring in things like lag occasionally allowing players to completely ignore the blast radius.

[coldplay]

That loading tip is incorrect now, sorry - we made some late adjustments to the Plasma Gun charged shot. That said, it's exactly enough to strip the shields of a Iron Halo-wielding Devastator.

I agree that the Iron Halo and Feel No Pain are easy choices as a player, but I wouldn't underestimate Artificer Armor or Reactive Blast. The powerful stomp perk is also deadly and Ammunition Stores works wonders if you want to use the Plasma Cannon charged shot like crazy. It's a little too early to say one way or the other, yet - I'd like to let the 'metagame' develop a little bit and encourage players to be more creative in how they deal with currently assumed "Powerful Builds".

EDIT - Jaimas: In practice it's hard to put two grenades at someone's feet, but if you're ONLY relying on those two grenades to kill that Devastator, you're missing a lot of your available damage potential (as any class).

[Jaimas]

That loading tip is incorrect now, sorry - we made some late adjustments to the Plasma Gun charged shot. That said, it's exactly enough to strip the shields of a Iron Halo-wielding Devastator.

I agree that the Iron Halo and Feel No Pain are easy choices as a player, but I wouldn't underestimate Artificer Armor or Reactive Blast. The powerful stomp perk is also deadly and Ammunition Stores works wonders if you want to use the Plasma Cannon charged shot like crazy. It's a little too early to say one way or the other, yet - I'd like to let the 'metagame' develop a little bit and encourage players to be more creative in how they deal with currently assumed "Powerful Builds".

See, this is the sort of dialogue we need, because it's what results ultimately in progress. I must say it's refreshing to see this kind of feedback.

That said, I do agree - The biggest issue here is not so much a fault of the Devastator per se so much as the fact that a lot of the counters for the Devastator are just woefully inefficient. Grenades work, but you need a perk for either more of them or more powerful ones to do so. The Vengeance Launcher could help, but its damage is much too low per-shot and you're not likely to kill one even with a full volley of the damned things, functionally necessitating Vengeance Projectiles. The Melta can do it, but not alone. The Lascannon can do it, but it needs a follow-up shot.

All of the above is fine in a vaccuum, but it's not the only problem that people have with the Devastator/Havoc. The other is how ridiculously effective their melee is compared to other classes - they reliably do more damage at close-range than the Tactical, and can outlast Sword Assaults with relative ease due to the sheer power and stun of their melee attacks. The Tactical has a huge uphill battle in CQC against the Devastator because of this, and, frankly, needs a new perk just to be able to meet things halfway (with Serrated Blade).

But we'll have time to get to that in a bit.

[hellic]

The question is, what is the Devastator's weakness? Is it health? Hell no. Susceptible to long-range fire? The Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, and Lascannon range from pretty good to excellent at that. Mid-range? Even better. Close, within-melee range? General toughness, stomp, different weapon "features" (e.g. Lascannon no-scope, Plasma Cannon charge that ensures everyone around you dies, Heavy Bolter DPS) all cover that.

Wait, wait, could this near-mythical weakness be...mobility? Sure, Devs may be slower than the other classes but, other than the Heavy Bolter (and a perk takes care of that exception), mobility's not really an issue. Kill a guy, move. Kill a guy, move.

[Jaimas]

The question is, what is the Devastator's weakness? Is it health? Hell no. Susceptible to long-range fire? The Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, and Lascannon range from pretty good to excellent at that. Mid-range? Even better. Close, within-melee range? General toughness, stomp, different weapon "features" (e.g. Lascannon no-scope, Plasma Cannon charge that ensures everyone around you dies, Heavy Bolter DPS) all cover that.

Wait, wait, could this near-mythical weakness be...mobility? Sure, Devs may be slower than the other classes but, other than the Heavy Bolter (and a perk takes care of that exception), mobility's not really an issue. Kill a guy, move. Kill a guy, move.

This is a very true statement. More so when you realize that the other classes have serious drawbacks to make up for their upsides.

[BigSteve]

equip pistol
run faster
????
profit

[hellic]

That is another option. I didn't mention it because people were inevitably going to say "a pistol? you're gonna get owned!" But yes, a good player can definitely make the pistol work. Or you could only pull it out when you need to run, especially on bigger maps.

[Pseudonymn]

Suppose we added some sort of counterbalancing handicap for perks that provide a clear benefit or advantage?

Also, on the topic of dev's sidearm choices, wouldn't it make sense for the dev to have to brace in order to fir any HW on hand? DoW2 devs all had set up times while they braced to fire their weapons. That's before we even start to discuss limited firing arcs. It seems only appropriate that the class crowned indisputable kings of ranged DPS should pay for that strength up front in CQC with combat knife melee and a bolt pistol being their only option in addition to whatever perk choices they've taken. People have already pointed out that this is a viable option as it is, so it's not like it's going to break anything.

[KDR_11k]

You give people a perk that increases the damage needed to kill them and they'll use it all the time. That's just how players work. The first priorities for upgrading are always damage and health, specialized upgrades are secondary to that. In Monday Night Combat everybody uses rate of fire (i.e. DPS) and armor perks in their first and second slot.

The game tells you that those iron halos are extremely rare when you get one in the campaign, why not use that attribute and simply make the IH increase the respawn timer significantly so IH players are "rarer"? Or alternatively have the IH stay inactive until the player scores a kill, then it remains active until he dies. That way the things aren't given out like candy.

As for the dev's weakness, a plascannon or lascannon dev has very little chance against an ASM engaging in ranged combat and an HB dev can easily be flanked by an ASM. the plasma pistol doesn't care about your iron halo.

[Chad Ghostal]

My deaths most of the time when I choose devastator are from ASM's jumping down and thromping me. It's very possible to be out shot as a dev when going against tacticals with stalker bolters and bolters with the 2 perks. Good tactic for me when facing down a dev is throwing 2 mastercrafted grenades at them and rolling, works like a charm. I think people just don't respect devs most of the time and try in vain to outgun them without thinking. No different then complaining ASM's are out melee'n me as a tact, don't fight to their strengths. Most maps always have an alternate route to getting them, and they're mostly always stationary.

[Pocktio]

I lol. most of the arguments I see are 'Devastators don't get killed instantly by one of my lame little one-hit kill guns, automatic unfairness'

Meltas don't one shot them
Grenades don't instagib them
Final vengeance doesn't instagib them

Why should your tactics work against everyone perfectly?

[Chad Ghostal]

I think I agree with relic in that we need time for the metagame to settle, before we start yelling nerf this and that. I'm assuming they have metrics for multiplayer matches to keep track of things. So they would hopefully know more than any of us, which weapons are dominating the battlefield, of course metrics don't tell the whole story so it's not a perfect system, hence feedback here.

[Gorb]

@Jaimas: no, but the amount of things people seem to be griping about, if Relic based balance feedback on this particular thread, the Devastator class would get enough nerfs to warrant nobody ever picking the class again :p

However, that's a bit of exaggeration. My actual point is that you are discussing everything that makes the Devastator a strong contender in certain matchups against certain classes. They don't have a flat-out advantage over every class with Iron Halo/Reactive Blast, or Iron Halo/Feel No Pain. Why? Because then they're sacrificing the improved stomp speed, or improved stomp damage, or the improved stim shot/adrenaline rush (whatever it's called) perk. And yet all of these perks are being brought up as arguments as to why the Devastator is apparently too strong (weapon complaints aside).

It is possible to dodge a Devastator's stomp, assuming he doesn't have the improved speed stomp perk. In that time, it is perfectly possible to kill the Devastator with your ASM, or even a Tactical with the Serrated Combat Blade perk. Even with an Iron Halo. Just keep dodging from side to side; if a skilled player can land a single Lascannon shot in that time, then you have enough time to get the hell outta dodge as a Tactical (or kill him, if possible), or re-jump as an ASM and divebomb behind him.

Furthermore, it is more than possible to kill a Devastator at range. Devastators counter Devastators, ironically enough. Tacticals with Stalker Bolters are excellent at sniping Devastators, especially ones that have braced themselves.

It is very easy to list all the things a Devastator is good at, without discussing the things that are good against a Devastator.

[hellic]

If you're getting killed by ranged ASMs, then apparently not even Devastators can help you at this game...

And the only time I get flanked or backstabbed by ASMs as a HB is when I'm already engaging someone else. If you're not getting double-teamed, then there's no reason you shouldn't at least suspect an ASM is jumping behind you and when you do, blast him out of the sky or in the face when he lands.

[Carl]

Hellic, against the sort of ASM that can generally gank me, (when as you say i'm not allready engaged), is the good ones. You won;t even know they're there until they drop in behind you, by which time it's far too late. Likewside the need to setup, even with trait, gives an attacking tac, (especially a flanking one as you need to turn to face), a chance to put in some real damage, or run away, before you can open up. And even if you do kill him, chances are his last grenade will kill you before you can ubn-setup and dodge far enough away. A HB dev's need to setup to win a rnaged shootout leaves him far more vulnrable to suprise attacks as only when given time to react and get himself ready can he dominate ina ranged shootout.

Also, i'm not assuming in my last post that a HB dev dosen;t move. I'm assuming you know how to play and employ situational awarness. Charging head on up what you belive is the enemy Devs route of advance clearly isn't optimal, (in fact unles you know you can get into position for a Lasscannon/Stalker shot it's a bad idea), on the other hand if you know the map and have a rough idea of where he is you can, you know, come at him from a side, catch him facing side on or outright away from you and even if he isn;t setup, turns right around, and sets right uip your not going to lose the fight unless you tried doing somthing daft, (like hitting with a Storm Bolter volley to alert him from half the map away). As soon as he's setup he's imobille too. Drop grenades at his feet. Setup perk or not he can't tottally avoid them, and if it forces hi to un-setup your garunteed to win.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Generally every class has a comfort zone, and pushing that class out of the comfort zone is what gives you an advantage over them. A devastator's comfort zone is created by the firepower of their weapon, and anything that denies them the full freedom to use that firepower will put them at a disadvantage. A really good devastator can learn to compensate partially for when they're not using their weapon to the fullest, such as bolt pistol + stomp, but it will never be anywhere near the full effectiveness of using their main weapon properly.

The requirement of switching weaponry and fighting style when the action gets too close is a discomfort to me, and there's always going to be a hesitation to do it. Do I really need to unbrace or can I finish him off with my heavy bolter? Is he going to try and jump behind me? Will he charge and then dash away again, forcing me to brace my gun again? If you act predictably around a devastator you will suffer immensely, and unpredictability will make the devastator suffer since every action they take has a commitment to it, so they can't afford misjudging you. This doesn't mean you need to play erratically, it means you must never telegraph your intentions so he can construct a plan with time to spare. Tacticals can just run around in circles and fire at near full effectiveness, but us devastators would be happier if you'd stand in that corner over there where I can see you clearly.

[hellic]

1. If you aren't engaging anyone, then you should be constantly scanning your surroundings. But I'm not going to lie, there are times you won't see good ASMs coming. For those times, you have something called...sounds.

2. 1 second to set up, 2-4 seconds to kill (depending on range). Not much time to counter in a ranged shootout.

3. But you are assuming a Tactical can always catch a Devastator unaware or from the flank. When I go HB, I never stay in a place longer than five seconds (unless I have to shoot at multiple enemies). I'm constantly on the move. If I get shot at from behind, I'll take cover, get out of the line of fire, etc. Then throw a nade back, go for a counter-flank, and basically play as a Tactical while lugging around a HB.

[konfeta]

1. Grenades do the job admirably, and a devastator is almost always engaged - if you are scanning your surroundings instead of paying attention to your firing arc, you are eating a sniper round or something equally nasty non-ASM related.

2. A plasma pistol will kill you faster than that if you are standing still, and will pretty much always strip you of your armor if you are an Iron Halo user. After that the ASM just needs a grenade or a ground pound.

3. Oh, you are one of those devastators. Well, I got 4 words for you, mister - Master Crafted Favored of the Armory. It's the special "fuck you" recipe.

[Shuma]

3. Oh, you are one of those devastators. Well, I got 4 words for you, mister - Master Crafted Favored of the Armory. It's the special "fuck you" recipe.

Don't forget the meltagun, stormbolter, kraken bolter, ground pound, plasma cannon, plasma gun, plasma pistol...

In a battle against an opponent of equal skill a HB devastator on the move doesn't really have many advantages, especially against tactical marines.

[hellic]

This'll go on and on, so let's just say that I haven't found a worthy challenge or counter yet. It's easy mode compared to using Tacs or ASMs.

Hit me up if you have this for PS3.

[konfeta]

Oh, well... *snicker*

Out of curiosity, do ASM on the PS3 use high precision short range jumps to flank you in combat? I mean, I have met very good Devastators that understand that positioning is everything, but killing even those with ASM is child's play when you flank them unless they have Fast Stomp or Reactive Armor as a surprise.

[Carl]

Yeah if your on PS3 i can see it being an issue hellic, you should have said. Quite a few of us are on PC. Belive me on PC constantly scanning around or relying on noise for clues really isn't viable, you've got a lot else to watch for besides them. I'm not saying it's easy mode, it isn't for me, not my cup of tea, but good ASM can do insane things. A lot of it is simply down to the sheer precishion they can pull off. That coupled with good situaional awerness really makes them dangerous because they're very good at coming round a corner then dropping on you in just a couple of seconds, you can't whatch everywhere all at the same time and the good ones exploit that. If they think or know you've seen them they back off and try a diffrent angle. I've had times, (not often but it happens), where i've had the same ASM jump out to saftey twice, only to come back from a tottally diffrent direction 30 seconds later with full sheilds and health each time. Evetually getting me on the third go. Their precishion lets thme just jump away behind a bit over and by the time i get round the corner they're gone, only to come back later.

[hellic]

Out of curiosity, do ASM on the PS3 use high precision short range jumps to flank you in combat?If my first ground pound doesn't put me a good position I'll immediately jump back up (Air-Cooled Thrusters FTW) and go for a flank or push him against a wall. I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

I'll probably buy the PC version when it's on sale so I'll look forward to killing these ASM gods. :)

[Sinogrim]

I honestly see little problems with the devs save for the Lascannon with it's perks.

In my experience you just use ASM's to jump in behind them and hack, slash or stomp them good. The problem I see with a lot of players is that they simply don't think before engaging. Time and again I see people blindly assaulting devs from the front and getting completely dominated. It's the way the dev is supposed to work... They destroy things that comes into their line of fire. Outflank them and you'll win.

[Makenshi]

A Jaimas' Threadnought! Emperor be praised, it's the last thing I ever thought Id find by lurking this section, it's been ages since I saw one.

[KDR_11k]

I think the HB is pretty much fair, it's hard to use well but when it is then it's a true monster that can only be taken down by a well played attack. Skill vs skill.

The plasma cannon, on the other hand, is just pure evil. No need to know good spots for setting up or anything, just walk out there and if anything moves give it plasma. Anything that's outside of melee range is doomed. Any HB dev who's getting predictable in his position (or gave it away too recently) eats a big ol' ball of doom, the rest gets three small balls of doom. It doesn't require aiming well.

[SPEZZMAREN]

*cough*

I agree with OP. Maybe at the higher end of the game its easy to kill them, but for below level 10's I find it impossible to kill them, as the following scenario suggests.

me: Ooooh, a solitary dev. Perfect prey. *BLIND, JETPACK*
dev: *blamblamblam*
me: *chainaxechainaxechainaxe*
Dev:*stomp*
me: *die* WTF beaten in melee...?

or:
me: Ooooh, a solitary dev. Perfect prey. *JETPACK*
dev: *blamblamblam*
me: *chainswordchainswordchainsword*
Dev:*Turn quickly* BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM
me: *die* WTF beaten by entrenched dev turning quickly...?


I think the standard call for Space Marine is gonna be "Nerf Devs." If anything else, increase the Unpack repack speed and slow the turning rate with heavy weapon equipped even when not entrenched.

And another thing, not exactly relevent here, but why oh why oh why do blind grenades blind the thrower even if he looks away?

Anyway, bring on part 2. I expect more funny pictures interspersed with well thought out points because mostly on the internet its just "I died. Class OP. NERF!"

[Jaimas]

The unpack/pack speed for HB devs with the Expertise Perk is hilarious. A competent Devastator can hop away from you, deploy, and turn you into figgy pudding at close-range with the damned thing if you're using the sword or axe.

Hammer, of course, still wrecks their shit.

[Arad]

The turning speed for a setup heavy bolter is already show. As a tac I actually ran circles around a devastator at point blank range and he couldn't track his bolter fast enough to catch me. (This was the first or second day of play, when everyone was still learning the ropes, and by now most dedicated dev players can't be caught like that.)

Regarding being beaten in melee, odds are the Dev had already winded up his stomp by the time you landed, then blind kicked/boltpistoled you to death. I've beaten a handful of ASM using this method, but I don't use devastator enough to really get good at it. Regardless, the Devstomp isn't to be underestimated, especially when you jump into it.

They destroy things that comes into their line of fire. Outflank them and you'll win.

Regarding heavy bolters and lascannons, I mostly agree with this statement, but plas-devs I have to disagree with. I see a HBDev or Lasdev, odds are they're hiding in a defensible area or behind a screen of Tacs running interference, in order to make up for their weakness to the flanks. Plasdevs, though, I often see as the spearhead of an assault on a position. They run and gun like a tac except with better health and weaponry, and without the non-setup/setup turn penalties of the Hbolter or the no-reticule/quickscope (which takes some skill) lascannon, they can simply turn around quick-as-you-please and destroy an assault marine in one or two shots, even at point blank range. The -only- way I have been able to reliably kill a plasdev is to wait for him to fire off a BFG shot, while he's on mandatory cooldown.

TL DR? Plasdevs have none of the weaknesses of the other dev classes (other than runspeed, which the boltpistol can fix) and a much better weapon than tacs.

Regarding a fix to make it less IMBA...I'll leave that to wiser heads than mine, but I have a few ideas. Make it do far greater damage to the user at point blank range, but that will merely turn them into suicide bombers. Making them have a setup time makes them a bit too much like HBDevs, but that's just one man's opinion. Reducing the fire rate of the plasma cannon's shots might help, especially if the direct-hit no longer instagibs. Perhaps after being struck in melee, the cannon's accuracy goes -wild- for a second or two, making it virtually impossible to hit your melee target. *shrugs* My sugguestions are from my perspective of a player who's died MANY times to plasdev BS, and I'm leery to try it myself lest I be sucked into the multiplayer underworld of broken weapons and lulzy kills.

[konfeta]

competent Devastator can hop away from you, deploy, and turn you into figgy pudding at close-range with the damned thing if you're using the sword or axe.
A competent ASM can instantly flank. There is no excuse to dying to HB Devastators as an ASM if you are hunting it. Lascannon users can at least try to no-scope a headshot while Plasma Devastors, well, are Plasma Devastators.

[Carl]

@Sopezzmarine & Jaimas: Effectivlly beating Dev in melee needs the same tricks as beating Tac.

1. Make sure he never sees you coming.

2. Land beind him with a dive attack for maximum suprise and damage.

3. Start whacking with the chainsword.

4. Work interuppts into your melee attacks, (get good enough at this and you can actualy shoulder charge right through a setup devs shoting and still win, but it's dicey).


Rule 1 of ASM usage is that againt an opponnent that knows your coming, your a dead man walking.

Rule 2 is that you've got to do the absolute maximum possibble damage in that second or so of confushion after hitting a target. Don't get the required damage in and weather it's a tac or a dev they'll turn ariound and rape your face.

The real issue heer is that your expecting to drop in on somone and faceroll through them regardles of other factors. In reaility ASM cannot do that, they're effective if facing a weakend target or from ambush. But in straight up assualts theyu're tottally outclassed by any non-ASM opponent. Personolly as a Tac or ASM i have no issues with HB Devs. Las Devs and PLas devs, sure. But i think i've been clear that i think those are both OP.

@Arad: If the person your fighting is using a screenmarker to get around the no recitle on the lasdev there's no more skill involved than when using a meltagun or other slow RoF weapons. Thje las dev has more halth and more damage than a stalker Tac, yet has no significant weakness in comparision.

[Arad]

The real issue heer is that your expecting to drop in on somone and faceroll through them regardles of other factors.

I have yet to see anyone here (aside from Gabriel Gorgutz) expect to drop in and faceroll win in melee. What people are having problems with is that certain classes have certain tools that, unless the assault ambush is executed perfectly, will melt an ASM to his boots. It puts the burden of skill heavily on the ASM, with timing and setting up the ambush, while his prey needs only a split second to turn and meltagun/plasma splooge all over him.

In regards to the lascannon noscope reticule, the game can't exactly anticipate such behavior from a player, other than to nerf the noscope accuracy (which I think would be a good thing, but that's just my opinion.)

We seem to be skirting into the dangerous territory of hyperbole, so perhaps we should all take a deep breath, slap a few grotz, then come back when we're all a little less confrontational.

[KDR_11k]

The plasma cannon can only instakill with the charged shot, regular shots take three hits to kill an enemy. Still powerful but not quite instakill :P. It's suicide in melee but brutally effective at moderate combat ranges.

I don't know how many plas devs use the cooling perk but I find it very useful. In group combat I often need more than four shots to kill all targets but rarely ever more than eight so I won't need to vent in mid-battle.

Maybe the Iron Halo should go, when using a lascannon or HB in the intended way you don't take many hits until you're overrun but when using the plasma cannon you're in open firefights and make plenty of use of that extra armor. And anyone using the lascannon or HB (or BP) in close combat with the various tricks is probably doing something the developers didn't intend.

[goosey_j]

Man, Devastators are completely fine, with the exception of one thing - that being the ridiculous Plasma cannon which has it's own thread and we don't need to discuss it here.

As a HB/Las Dev you have to balance your killiness with survivability. Iron Halo is a must, because frankly all the other Dev class perks suck. FNP is basically a worse Iron Halo, and realistically I don't understand why you'd take either of the stomp perks because all Dev weapons have a perk that seriously boosts their potency. The fact is, without Iron Halo, anything will killing you really, really quickly.
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAH" I hear you say, "Devs can survive grenade blasts because of Iron Halo!". Yes, and they damn well should. Devastators have to stand still to fire their gun with any degree of accuracy (ridiculous Plasma cannon excluded), and their dodge is pretty pathetic. HB devs have further problems avoiding grenades because they must lock into position to fire, and yes while the perk definitely helps, it is still a delay that can be taken advantage of by a player that knows what they're doing.

I'll put it bluntly. Nerf the halo, and the class would be underpowered. No Halo, crap dodge and low health = a fragile class that is easy to out manoeuvre and kill.

If you're dying to a Dev as an ASM, then you're probably either a) in a tunnel or b) a bad player. Killing Devs, even with the Iron Halo, is easy. Between blind grenades, the plasma pistol, DFA and whatever weapon you're using, you should not be dying to Devs. They have massive guns. Do not run directly at them. Use the jetpack to control the fight in your favour. Stomp is a non issue if you've a) weakened them enough with your plasma pistol or b) wtfhammertimed them.

Heavy Bolter devs will lose to a Tac/ASM that can outmanoeuvre them, which with practice is not hard.
Las Cannon devs I find even easier to deal with. You have to be very unlucky to die in one hit to a Las dev. And once he's fired that first shot, you know exactly where he is, just pay attention to the Las's vapour trail. Easy to avoid and flank, and even easier to kill in close quarters.
Essentially, as a Dev you only have one perk slot, as one should always be filled by Iron Halo. If you decided not to take Iron Halo, you will die, and you will die a lot. Even Las Devs which take both Las Cannon perks can be dealt with easily, as long as you make sure you're not getting hit by their gun.

I would just like to reiterate that the Plasma Dev is indeed overpowered, and therefore I've excluded mentioning it from this post.

[Carl]

I tend to agree with you Goosey with regards HB devs and the IH, but not Las Devs. Only targeter Bolters, other Las Devs, and Stalker tacs can directly shoot at you, anything else scatters too much at the ranges you should eb fighting at. Versus those 3 weapons it's defintly a nice extra that greatly enhances your abilities, but it's far from vital IMHO. My balance issue with the Las Dev lies entierly in their ability to dodge counter sniping as well as a tac, and generally relocate very easilly. Despite the fact that they have a significant DPS advantage over a Stalker/Targeter Bolter tac. Without IH they do everything a SNiping tac does, only better, and the Las Devs perks just exsacerbate this.

[goosey_j]

Yes, but why would you try and outsnipe a guy that is packing an enormous, accurate and powerful sniper, designed to be better than any other sniping weapon? Las Devs can be easily dodged, flanked, and then killed. I mean if you're talking Dev v Dev then yeah, sure a Las Dev would pretty much always come out top. But if I'm playing Tac or ASM there is no way in hell I'm gonna be trying to have a head on fire fight with him.

[Carl]

A Las dev is no more vulnrable to being dodged flanked or in an way countered any more than a stalker tac, thats the point. Good snipers, even without supporrting teamates use regular relocation and movment to enshure enemies never get too close. And thats if your just delaing with somone liek me who plays it fair. Come across somone with a marker on his screen and even if you do get close your going up against somone who's decidedly ore lethal in close than a Melta Tac. Luckily they're not THAT common, but just enough to really annoy IMHO. The fact is the Las Dev gets bvetter firepower than a sniping tac, but gives absolutly nothing up to aquire it.

[goosey_j]

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Stalker Tacs are a damn sight more manoeuvrable than a Las Dev, and quicker as well, and most of the time will have a second gun for up close and personal encounters. That makes them far less vulnerable to flanking than a Las Dev. If you can get close to a Las Dev (and honestly that's not something I personally have a problem with as a Tac marine), he will lose most of the time, unless he's the best damn shot in the entire world :P

[Hirmetrium]

Or he pulls out a bolt pistol and headshots you.

Seriously, the amount of times I do that to assaults and tactical's is hilarious.

[Carl]

@Goosey: Whilst it's true not every las dev works well up close since they aren't good quick scopers or using markers, they do exist. And as Hirm notes witha bolt pistol they're far from utterly usless. Tacs with their role may be a bit better at dodging, but at extreme range it's a very margnal benefit, and it's still enough to avoid nades. As for speed, again marginal and they cna pull out the Bol pistol if they really need to run faster.

Fundamentally though in a game of hunt the relocating sniper, the dev has enough dodging ability and speed to keep it up for a long time during which time they get a bunch of kills. Tacs can do the same, but because they don't do as much damage as Devs they tend to get lss kills.

[goosey_j]

To go back to the original point, I don't really think that Las Devs need nerfing. Just because the Las is better than any other Sniper weapon, it doesn't mean that a Las Dev can play like a Tac Marine. I personally don't have a balance issue with Tac Marines not being able to out snipe a dedicated sniper, Stalker Bolter or not. A Tac has many other options to deal with said sniper, and really a good Tac will be utilising these methods when it comes to dealing a Las Dev. It's a good gun, and Las Devs in the right hands are a force to be reckon with, but they have definite exploitable weaknesses and can be beaten. Not really unbalanced.

[Carl]

They don't, (Sans perks), have any weakness the sniper Tac dosen't have though Goosey, but they have a significant strength in their greater ability to rip through enemies at extreme range. Unless your arguing a Tac gets more benefits from their perks than a las dev, (which all things being balanced they shouldn;t), there's no way aropund the fact that the dev is plain stronger base platform. Bioth then get major strength enhancments from their perks, but since the Dev is stronger base, all being equal he should turn out stronger when he's done.

[goosey_j]

I'm not arguing that Tacs get more benefits from their perks, I'm arguing that Tac Marines have perks that help offset their weaknesses in regards to dealing with Las Devs, e.g. being able to take a second weapon so they don't have to enter into a sniper duel with a dedicated sniper class.

[Carl]

This isn;t about a simple sniper matchup between the two, (as you say not countersniping is the way to go), though Goosey. This is about which is stronger overall. So eithier Tacs get m,ore benefits from their Perks, meaning they come out stronger ovrall, or they don't, in which case Las Devs are stronger overall.

In effect who's goign to have the bigger effect on the match. In theory it should be the same. But with Las Devs starting out stronger base it would require that tacs get more advantages from their perks to componsate.

[goosey_j]

I'm not sure what your argument for Las Devs being overpowered is to be quite honest Carl. In what situation could a Las Dev have a bigger effect on a match then a Tac? Tacs are the most versatile class in the game and have the tools at their disposal to effectively deal with any threat, especially when you get the mega bolter. A Las Dev cannot run, gun and kill like a Tac Marine can. It cannot get out of trouble like a Tac marine can. It cannot stay mobile and effective like Tac Marine can. Sure, it has a big powerful gun and in the right hands can be a very effective killer, but it is still a Dev and should be handled like any other (non Plasmalolcannon) Dev.

So I have to ask again, what about the Las Dev do you find overpowered?

[Demonic Spoon]

A plasma devastator will virtually always be more useful than a tac.

Compared to a tac, a plasma devastator has more health (+ Perk options to make the difference even bigger), more damage (the plasma cannon is just a better plasmagun) and melee that doesn't require a perk to be useful.

What does he lose? Combat roll, and a tiny amount of run speed.

Heavy bolter dev needs no real changes. Lascannon needs to not be accurate when not scoped (memorizing the center of the screen as a mental crosshair isn't hard...or you can just draw one on. ) Plasmacannon's primary use should be the charged shot - a guy running around spamming the small shots shouldn't be that effective. I'd imagine the plasmadev as a support weapon, like the HB.

[goosey_j]

@Demonic Spoon
I'm well aware of how stupidly overpowered Plasma Devs are at the minute. We were not discussing them as they have their own separate thread at the minute. What I'm trying to establish with Carl is why he is of the opinion Las Devs are OP in their current state.

[Thorno]

A plasma devastator will virtually always be more useful than a tac.

Obviously I'm just an absolutely awesome Tac Marine player then.

[Arad]

Lascannon needs to not be accurate when not scoped (memorizing the center of the screen as a mental crosshair isn't hard...or you can just draw one on. )

That's why lascannon is OP. Noscope accuracy should be nonexistant, but it's just as accurate as scoped accuracy, and with headshot instagib/2body hit deaths, if you draw on a targetting reticule, you really don't even need to scope. At the very least, it needs to no longer instagib headshot/2body hit death while noscoped.

[Jaimas]

A competent ASM can instantly flank. There is no excuse to dying to HB Devastators as an ASM if you are hunting it.

Someone's not terribly familiar with this game's lag causing chronic teleportitis. Time for another visual aid:

http://x36.xanga.com/5dde2335c3437278928589/w222193306.png

If I had a dollar for every time this happened to me when I was climbing up in rank, I'd be able to afford a nice dinner from a restaurant. So long as lag remains an issue, the quickpack/unpack is going to be off-balance.

[Carl]

@goosey: Sorry for the late reply here. And apologies for the bad communication. I'm somthing of a master of misunderstanding TBH.

The whole point i was making with the Stalker/Las comparision is this:

Both builds bring the same basic functionallity to the team, (i.e. long range sniping power). Both have a high degree of mobility, abaility to evade return fire adquetlly, and neithier is exactly spectacular at close rnage in comparision to the alternatives. The Las Dev has vastly supiriour firepower at his effective range, in exchange he theoreticlly suffers a greater deffecit at short range, (not that the stalkrs much good there eithier, avergae and poor ASM aside). In practise the natural playstyle of an effective sniper makes this rather less of a downside than the extra damage throughput is an upside. Of course once you start bringing perks in it gets more complicated, but in theory perks on both sides should even out, even if they work out very diffrently in what playstyle aspects they effect.

As such IMHO the las dev has a significant advantage in comparision to stalker tacs in terms of team contributing ability. Given that i don;t feel the stalker tac is underpowred and given my experiance with the las dev i can't help but feel that this leaves the las dev OP. It's not on the same leve as the Plas dev by any stretch, nor is it a massive thing. But it's enough to warrent attention.

@Jamias: Thats far fro the normal situation. Using a one in several dozen game occourance as an argument isn't exactly a good idea. Even before we get into the fact that we should try and balance for low lag games not high lag ones.

[Jaimas]

@Jamias: Thats far fro the normal situation. Using a one in several dozen game occourance as an argument isn't exactly a good idea. Even before we get into the fact that we should try and balance for low lag games not high lag ones.

Don't know what version you're using, but for the 360 version, this is closer to about one in five, as the game seems to have a penchant for connecting via IPs in countries where the internet is powered by banging rocks together.

[Carl]

Low grade lag is pretty common on the PC, but nothing like this, not on a regular basis anyway.

[goosey_j]

@ Carl

If you're looking at it in terms of weapon v weapon, the Las is more powerful, and so it should be. When you factor in perks, the Stalker Tac has enough tricks in his bag to deal with a Las Dev. Also, I don't consider it a is a balance issue that the dedicated sniping class in the game is a more powerful sniper than a jack of all trades class with a sniping option. Some match ups will struggle against others, and really just because the Stalker can't outshoot a Las Dev, that does not mean the Las Dev is over powered, or that the Stalker is underpowered. A Stalker Tac has mobility and versatility on his side, something a Las Dev does not have. Realistically, as a weapon, the Las Cannon isn't causing any game breaking damage.
And as it stands, I much prefer the Heavy Bolter anyway.

[Slow_Runner]

Jaimas, balance arguments based on high lag are really, really bad balance arguments. If intended counters aren't working because of lag issues, you fix the lag issues instead of inventing new counters. Incidentally I've yet to see you suggest any fixes to these balance problems you speak of.

[Mirage Knight]

So the best thing to do is...fix the lag issues and THEN talk about balance.

[Slow_Runner]

Yes! Yes! A thousand times yes!

[konfeta]

Um. Has any shooter ever had the massive lag issues fixed post-release with a patch?

[Hirmetrium]

Um. Has any shooter ever had the massive lag issues fixed post-release with a patch? BRINK? And a million games before that?

Ok, final moderator warning: Stop using lag in this thread to argue about balance. It's dragging it off topic and I'm sick to death of moaning. Play the game or don't - Relic know whats going on, and they need time now.

[Carl]

@Goosey: I really don;t understand what was not clear about my last post, but i'll try again. This isn;t about weapon vs weapon comparision. This is about team contribution vs team contribution.

If you bring a stalker or a lascannon your primary contribution is snping. Yes via the pistol, screen markers, or tac perks you can bring other functionalities at closer ranges. But if your plahying correctly and your not facing a team that tottally outmatches your own, (letting a large portion of the enemy focus on you), you won;t get massive amounts of use out of them, their very much a secondary contribution to your team not a primary and are tottally overshadowed by said primary, (the nature of a sniper severly limits any contribution, unlike many other weapons which allow multipule contributyions to be tied together because of the closer range of the fighting). Your bassiclly assuming that the versatility effects of a Tac can somehow make up for the weaker sniping,. But to use them you've got to actually let the enemy get close to you. And doing so precludes any sniping, both because the best places to snipe from are not the best places to enage in closer range fighting, (Risks you getting countersniped), and because sniping requires a certian degree of tunnel vision on your target to line the shot up. You need at last a few seconds of knowing your clear nd safe to aquire and put down a target.

I'm not saying that this versatility isn't valuble or contributes nothing. I'm saying that fi a good sniper is playing the character it's not sufficently used to componsate for the differential. If you where talking Las Dev with no perks vs fully perked tac, then yeah it would work. In fact IMHO that would be perfectly even balance both ways. But the Dev has perks too, and those do change the matchup so that just as with a no perk tac vs a no perk dev, the balance is screwed up.

[konfeta]

If you bring a stalker or a lascannon your primary contribution is snping.
Your problem is that you insist on viewing Stalker Tacs as Snipers that must be competitive with Lascannon Devs as Snipers. This is not the intended design.. A Devastator with a Lascannon can only contribute sniping and nothing else - all of the perks either improve sniping or survivability. A Tactical can contribute other weapons, improved grenades, or territory control (to reiterate - Homing Beacon and Rapid Reinforcement are insanely powerful perks).

The only way your position makes sense is when comparing Stalker with both weapon perks to a Lascannon Devs. And that is more of an issue with Stalker perks than anything else.

[Carl]

Konfeta. How do you intend to use the stalker if you don't snipe, and if your sniping how do you intend to use any of those other possobbilities. You can't throw a grenade from there, or use any of the other weapons.

Using anything but Teleport homwer/Rapid deployment, (Both far too dependant on having a team with the necessery number of teleport homwer/rapid deployment tacs to be worth discussing in 99% of games), you have to let the enemy get close to actually use them. And a good sniper does not let the enemy get close if he can avoid it. Doing so precludes him from sniping. To get any use out of virtually everything else he can bring a tac has to delibretly run close to the enemy. He ultimatly reduces his stalker to a secondary weapon, using his other as a primary. To use the stalker as the primary you have to delibretly avoid letting the enemy get close, eliminating your ability to use most of the other perks capabilities as a significant part of your team contribution.

Frankly konfeta yours and Goosey's position only makes sense if we assume that a tac using the stalker as a primary weapon is eithier A) Magical and somhow able to throw grbenades, fire a strom bolter, and still devote all his time to sniping, B) A tac using the stalker as a primary weapon is weaker than all other tacs.

I think we know A is false and i don;t belive B. But as things are a tac using a Stalker as his primary IS a weaker sniper than a Las Dev, and if B is not false that means all Tac builds are weaker than Las Devs, (Somthing my experiance on sniper freindly maps, (not just hab eithier), backs up).

[Codex]

Stalker bolter is more than sufficient at close range. Its semi-auto fire/burst fire perk makes it at least quite good at close range, unscoped, and with weapon versatility instead it's actually great to play stalker bolter builds at all ranges, I find. I'm countersniping scoped enemies, I'm rushing into mid range combat. I can't wait to get the storm bolter to see what it's like- my current build is Stalker bolter+ plasma gun, weapon versatility and tactical readout.

Tactical readout is a great perk since it allows you to know when to engage and how to engage.

[konfeta]

I use Stalker when I need to shoot something at long range while moving in the direct where the team needs me to be. Maybe to counter Heavy Bolter/Plasma Devastator, or force an unaware Lascannon to retreat. To be able to assist an ally being harassed by an ASM without running there. It is great having the ability to ambush someone from medium range. If I want to only snipe, I use the Lascannon. If I want to do something else while retaining decent sniping capability, I use a Stalker Tac. And as an ASM, I find even pure Stalker Tacs a far more difficult proposition to try to take down in melee than Lascannon devs.

Your position makes as much sense as expecting a Bolter Tac to compete with a Heavy Bolter for firepower.


(Both far too dependant on having a team with the necessery number of teleport homwer/rapid deployment tacs to be worth discussing in 99% of games)
Honestly, no. These perks are even more game breaking on two unorganized teams when you just get 2-3 people using them. At least organized teams have the common courtesy to leave a bunch of people covering their behinds.

[goosey_j]

@ Carl

Konfeta said it better than I ever could. A Las Dev's purpose in his team is to snipe. That is all he can do. That is all he is intended to do. His perks make him a better sniper. That is it.

A Tactical Marine's job is to be just that, tactical. If you're looking for a pure sniper class play a Las Dev. An Tactical Marine with an unperked stalker can still perform multiple roles whilst having an effective and versatile sniping weapon. You can have area control with grenade perks, fast deployment and deployment control. You have the option to take on two weapons for two entirely different combat situations. You can be in the complete thick of it with your Stalker Bolter and taking heads.
A Las Dev can do none of this. He has a big sniper rifle, and that's it. He sits at the back, and he snipes. He cannot add anything else to his team apart from that. If you're playing a Tactical Marine purely to snipe, then honestly my friend you're not getting anywhere close to maximising the potential of the Tactical Marine, and I'd recommend you play as Las Dev.

Also, when you put your Stalker vs Las argument into an actual game, there are many instances where the Stalker Tac outshines the Las Dev. Waste Control is perfect example. If you're getting beaten consistently by a Las Dev on that map, you're doing something wrong.

Your argument seems to be based around the fact that you think a Stalker Tac should be as viable a sniping option as a Las Dev, and because it isn't the Las Dev is imbalanced. This simply isn't the case. Tactical marines are a jack of all trades class, able to a lot of things well, but they should not be as good at a role against classes that are dedicated singularly to that role. It's the same as saying "my tactical marine has improved knife, therefore it should be as good in close combat as a chainsword, because that's how I want to play my Tac". It's total nonsense. It sounds to me that you want to play a Tactical Marine with a weapon as good as a Las Cannon, but with all the benefits of being a Tac Marine. Tell me, what is balanced about that?

[KDR_11k]

What might benefit Lasdevs too much is that often the sniper perches are easy to access from the spawn. On Hab Center or Manufactorum a dead Lasev can just respawn and run back into position within seconds, it doesn't matter that he died and the constant stream of other players from the spawn will get rid of enemies who hang around to kill the lasdev again.

[goosey_j]

That isn't an issue with the Las Dev, that is an issue with map design, and really only then . And honestly, I don't see that as a big issue. Playing predictably gets you killed. If people know where you're going be, 100% of the time, they're going to know how to kill you.

[KDR_11k]

What does it matter if they kill me when I can be back in seconds and keep locking down enemy movement across central locations? Even if I stop getting kills entirely I win if the enemy is too scared to attack the capture point I'm overwatching.

[Master Flagg]

I like the comics. it makes me lolz. cant wait for more

[Pseudonymn]

Playing predictably gets you killed. If people know where you're going be, 100% of the time, they're going to know how to kill you.What KDR_11K said.

Also, while there's nothing untrue about what you said, it doesn't address the fact that locations like that still allow the lazdev a higher kill:death ratio for the effort required. Getting whacked by the same sneaky ASM once for every 4 or 5 kills made in the interval between the time it takes the ASM to cross that distance is hardly a disincentive for not taking up position there. On hab center, it's a hardened sniper's nest due to the volume of friendly traffic that goes through that area. Sure, that's tied to poor map design. But it 's not really that isolated. Manufactorum has similarly hardened spots where snipers like to camp, albeit it's not as wide open as Hab. Even so, they have their asses covered the whole time that they stand there keeping the center point on overwatch. And ASM might get in there to kill him, but it's usually a one-way, one-kill ticket.

[konfeta]

On Hab center, pwning a Sniper Nest is also accompanied with an easy cap of their spawn point. On Manufactorum, the area covered by snipers is hilariously tiny and is a non-issue.

[Pseudonymn]

You're missing the point. I was merely countering the argument that being predictable means being easy to kill, implying that they should die often, by pointing out the motivation behind the behavior. It requires no effort for the devs to get into position on those maps and there is little incentive for them to find positions elsewhere. They are areas that are immediately accessible and lend themselves to achieving more kills than deaths, which directly refutes the argument against predictability as a weak point. If it were not an efficient place to be, people would not play from those positions and, on balance, a competent sniper comes out ahead with a positive kill to death ratio.

I was not assessing the impact they may or may not have on the map over all. Indeed, I hate playing on teams infested by snipers because they contribute very little toward actually winning beyond maybe being ranked high on the scoreboard or having lopsided KDRs. Snipers aren't a very team-orientated kit to play.

[konfeta]

It requires no effort for the devs to get into position on those maps and there is little incentive for them to find positions elsewhere.
If you don't consider capping points, avoiding counter-snipers, counter-sniping yourself, and getting new firing lines against people who believe themselves to be safe because they can't see the general sniper nest to be good incentives, sure.

Efficient sniping and all that is great, but the actually good snipers don't camp.

[Pseudonymn]

You're still talking about a minority group of "good" snipers. Are you arguing the point for the sake of argument or is it something else? Tell me you don't see those sniper nests populated by snipers in every game you play.

[Arbit]

Well, you don't have to worry about the non-good snipers because they're bad. I don't see the sniper "nests" populated in manufactorum because as quick as it is to run out there, it's awfully easy for an ASM to jump in there and clean them out. Hab center is another matter - the roofs make it significantly harder for ASM to reach them and if you do manage to hoof it all the way over there you're under constant threat of somebody spawning behind you and killing you before you know it.

[konfeta]

Tell me you don't see those sniper nests populated by snipers in every game you play.
I don't. Bad players will be bad. No amount of sniper nest removal will fix that. If they are fail sniping at the sniper nest, they won't be any better at any other role the elect to play.

[Jaimas]

You know, there's more ways to cover an area than just sniping. Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon Devs can rape a point just as easily and don't require the split-second aiming skillz the Lascannon does, though admittedly they don't OHK through armor with a headshot.

[Master Flagg]

The thing is, i have no problem taking down a Dev/hav at all. Even if they have the Iron Halo/icon of chaos, one of my fav things to do against them are the stalker bolter. Seems to work just fine for me. the only real prob i had with a Dev/hav is when they had the lascannon and almost out shot me.

[Danustar]

Yeah, I'm really not convinced they're particularly ott.
I've been following this thread and finding it hard to relate. I don't remember being out-meleed by a Dev as ASM ever.
And I find them the hardest to play with. I did the Lascannon cheese thing until I'd unlocked both perks and now I'll occasionally take a HB or PC Dev if the team needs it. But usually I prefer the other two classes. In my opinion, Devastators are the hardest to get kills with and the most vulnerable. Meh.