Class Discussion: Tactical Durability

[Jaimas]

Any player who has mained Tactical for a bit knows what I'm talking about when I say that the Tactical has a few survival problems. Many of them are not so much the fault of the Tactical itself so much as they are other classes; others are painfully obviously the Tactical's problem and need addressing. A comprehensive list of some of the tactical's durability issues follows.

* Tacticals who are attacked by Sword assaults have two choices: Die, or pack a Meltagun. Usually, it's the former, as Tacs facing Sword Assaults typically die in 1-2 hits with zero chance of escaping. This is mostly due to the "stickiness" of the Chainsword (curiously, this is something the Power Sword seems to be less-effective at); it can effortlessly close the gap far more effectively than the Tactical can dodgeroll, and is unaffected by Blind Grenades. Fixing the "stickiness" of swords would likely go a long way towards fixing this issue.

* It's possible for an Assault or Devastator to die from one frag grenade, but it typically takes a Master-Crafted one to do it or being at the dead-center of a blast. Tacticals have a noted tendency to take more damage from the blast and die from casual proximity to explosives far more often than Devs or Assaults. This is mostly due to the fact that they have nothing like Impenetrable or Iron Halo, but also because Tacticals have weaker armor and health stats than their counterparts as well. Mirage Knight has called for standardized health/armor repeatedly, and I'm inclined to agree with that.

* Tacticals have no defensive perks other than Larraman's Blessing, which really doesn't help during fights. This is a stark contrast to the Assault which gets two defensive perks (Final Vengeance and Impenetrable), both of which are worth taking and have direct effects, and the Devastator which gets three defensive perks, all of which likely have direct outcomes on fights (Reactive Blast, Iron Halo, Feel No Pain). As it stands, Larraman's is an underpowered and underutilized perk. Boosting the Tactical's max HP instead of the boosted regen would make this perk a hell of a lot more versatile.

Your thoughts?

[Demonic Spoon]

* Tacticals who are attacked by Sword assaults have two choices: Die, or pack a Meltagun. Usually, it's the former, as Tacs facing Sword Assaults typically die in 1-2 hits with zero chance of escaping. This is mostly due to the "stickiness" of the Chainsword (curiously, this is something the Power Sword seems to be less-effective at); it can effortlessly close the gap far more effectively than the Tactical can dodgeroll, and is unaffected by Blind Grenades. Fixing the "stickiness" of swords would likely go a long way towards fixing this issue.


1-2 hits? Really? ...You should really lab that before throwing out absurd numbers. It's way more than that.

Tacs do perfectly fine against assaults. I wouldn't even say a chainsword assault is even in an advantageous position unless the assault sneaks up on you. If you see it coming, there's plenty of things you can do (Drop nade -> roll away...)

Chainswords are better against tacs than, say, thunderhammers...but that's because chainswords are worse against devs than the other melee options.



This is mostly due to the fact that they have nothing like Impenetrable or Iron Halo, but also because Tacticals have weaker armor and health stats than their counterparts as well. Mirage Knight has called for standardized health/armor repeatedly, and I'm inclined to agree with that.


It's absurd to call Assaults more durable against grenades than tacs because they can get impenetrable...I'm not even sure impenetrable even helps you against ranged weapons, and it's just one perk of many.

Health is already standardized...standardized armor is an awful idea that would require nerfing the hell out of assaults' weapons or jump capabilities and buffing the hell out of devastators' weapons. Also, assaults already have less armor than tacs.


* Tacticals have no defensive perks other than Larraman's Blessing, which really doesn't help during fights. This is a stark contrast to the Assault which gets two defensive perks (Final Vengeance and Impenetrable), both of which are worth taking and have direct effects, and the Devastator which gets three defensive perks, all of which likely have direct outcomes on fights (Reactive Blast, Iron Halo, Feel No Pain). As it stand, Larraman's is an underpowered and underutilized perk. Boosting the Tactical's max HP instead of the boosted regen would make this perk a hell of a lot more versatile.


Final vengeance is not a defensive perk. They only have impenetrable. While Larraman's Blessing is underwhelming in Versus, that does not make the tactical weaker than assaults. Assaults have weak perk options, too (blast off...)

[konfeta]

*Or, you know, you can roll. Barring lag, it nullifies ASM melee. See, a nasty converse of this situation is that Assaults who don't use a sword literally will never kill a competent Tac with their actual melee weapon because it impossible to chase after a dodge roll spamming Tac without a perfect charge hit or more ground pounds. And the sword chain only works out on what is essentially a direct ground pound hit, otherwise the Tac can kite with dodge roll spamming all day. If you have enough awareness to even get a hint that the Assault is going to jump you, rolling as he fires off the ground pound is guaranteed safety. I vouch for this as both as a Tac and an Assault player.

Another awesome dynamic is that you can frequently spike a grenade if you know you screwed up and got caught by the melee chain. It won't make you survive, but it generally wipes out the Assault Marine barring the magic of lag.

*Nonsense. Start up a practice game and throw grenades at your feet. You will notice how all three classes survive Frags that aren't direct hit, all three classes survive "glancing" hits from explosions (judge by the crater texture left on the ground). Tacs actually have the best base survivability against grenades because the roll is always instant response, while ASM have to contend with a legion of animation locks and a jump jet that seems to have randomized response time thanks to a single button governing three different jumps. Devastators only pull ahead thanks to defensive perks, though I do believe they are *slightly* tougher against frags at base level.

*Larraman is probably the weakest passive defensive perk, I agree there. I don't think Tacs need any more direct survivability, but I think it would be fair if it was another survivability oriented benefit to it. Ex:
1. Faster movement speed or longer/faster dodge roll.
2. Reduced delay on shield generation as well so it can be used to exemplify Tacs as masters of cover and reward good rolling.
3. Flashbang/stun resistance.


It's absurd to call Assaults more durable against grenades than tacs because they can get impenetrable...I'm not even sure impenetrable even helps you against ranged weapons, and it's just one perk of many.
Oh, it doesn't help against explosives. It helps against ranged attacks quite noticeably, though.

[Dimension]

* Tacticals who are attacked by Sword assaults have two choices: Die, or pack a Meltagun. Usually, it's the former, as Tacs facing Sword Assaults typically die in 1-2 hits with zero chance of escaping. This is mostly due to the "stickiness" of the Chainsword (curiously, this is something the Power Sword seems to be less-effective at); it can effortlessly close the gap far more effectively than the Tactical can dodgeroll, and is unaffected by Blind Grenades. Fixing the "stickiness" of swords would likely go a long way towards fixing this issue.

I disagree. combat roll does create enough space for you to be free to act (grenade, shoot), unless the guy was so close to you that you're practically clipping (because he got the drop on you, in which case you should die), or you didn't wait for the ASM to initiate the swing before rolling, hence him being able to jump right into you because he's not commited to the swing animation. if you have a grenade, it means you will hardly take damage if you roll afterwards, while the ASM will take a lot of damage if he's coming for you. I've NEVER seen an ASM being able to evade a grenade once he's committed to the attack, unless you messed up your grenade aiming. but hey, with the awesomeness that is the combat roll, you don't even need grenades to occasionally come out on top, and if he is actually damaged because someone has been taking potshots at him while he was in the air (something you should always do), then he's shit out of luck.



* It's possible for an Assault or Devastator to die from one frag grenade, but it typically takes a Master-Crafted one to do it or being at the dead-center of a blast. Tacticals have a noted tendency to take more damage from the blast and die from casual proximity to explosives far more often than Devs or Assaults. This is mostly due to the fact that they have nothing like Impenetrable or Iron Halo, but also because Tacticals have weaker armor and health stats than their counterparts as well. Mirage Knight has called for standardized health/armor repeatedly, and I'm inclined to agree with that.

tac combat roll is THE best grenade evasion method of all. the fact that a tac is hardly ever caught in a swing animation means you can roll the instant you see the grenade, and it creates enough space for the blast to fail to be deadly. asm are dedicated to melee, so will swing a lot, and concentrate on landing blows, making them a lot more susceptible to grenades unless they're thrown from halfway across the map. they might also not have enough juice in their pack to jump away or sidethrust. devs cannot combat roll, so they are even worse off.


* Tacticals have no defensive perks other than Larraman's Blessing, which really doesn't help during fights. This is a stark contrast to the Assault which gets two defensive perks (Final Vengeance and Impenetrable), both of which are worth taking and have direct effects, and the Devastator which gets three defensive perks, all of which likely have direct outcomes on fights (Reactive Blast, Iron Halo, Feel No Pain). As it stands, Larraman's is an underpowered and underutilized perk. Boosting the Tactical's max HP instead of the boosted regen would make this perk a hell of a lot more versatile.

I use it. getting killstreaks is a lot easier with it, as you can regenerate faster and be in a better position when you're engaging your next enemy. It might not be superawesome compared to FNP or IH, but I'm totally fine with impenetrable being as good as it is, because otherwise it would be pointless to take it over furious charge, air cooled thrusters etc etc etc.

[Civik]

There is also something to be said about a tac with Kraken and fast deploy... You will die a lot. However, you will also be able to quickly spawn at necessary capture points to do a fast defense. Know which side you need to turn and throw grenade/open fire. You can do some real damage to lone cappers and help your teammates if they are actually paying attention to what's going on.

[Danustar]

The Tac just needs the teensiest buff to his sprint speed. Done.

[Ap0k]

He's already faster at sprinting than ASM's, and faster than Dev's when they don't weaponswitch.

I have no idea what a faster sprint is intended to achieve.

[Demonic Spoon]

They actually fixed Dev sprint speed. They no longer can run faster just by pulling out their bolt pistol

[Danustar]

A slightly faster sprint addresses the complaints in the OP by giving him a better evasiveness against assault and grenades - but mainly assault.
I know he's already faster. I'm talking about a subtle increase that, combined with the already awesome roll, actually gives the non-melta Tac a distancing survival option because right now his tiny speed advantage is negligible.

[Demonic Spoon]

Tacs are already more than capable of taking on assaults. In fact, it's pretty damn easy to kill an assault as a tac as long as you don't wait for him to start punching your face in for you to start evading.

[Civik]

Tacs are really beyond capable of taking on assaults... it's more a matter of being aware of your surroundings and dodging in a timely manner. The main reason you get killed in CC is because in the time it takes for the host to let you know you're being hit and you reacting to that, it can be nearly too late to do anything about it(DFA and one to two hits already received by the time the dodge finally executes is much too late, you are hosed). Faster sprinting means a tac is in your face with a melta that much quicker. It's not necessary for a tac to run faster.

[Dimension]

faster sprinting would also make tacs completely OP vs ASM, unless you give those faster sprinting as well.

[Danustar]

Yeah, you're probably right. Ignore me. :)

[Jaimas]

Really, with Larraman's fix coming up, I think the Tac's fine.

[Jaimas]

Wait, we have spambot posters now?

For fuck's sake.

[dirtyprotest]

reduce chainsword stickiness? tac runningspeed boost? Health boost?

fix counter melee (stun).
stun if doesnt hit on the nose, seems have reduced effect.
fix glancing stun so it disrupts as much full stun.

should give time for an escape roll or slap down with serrated blades.

With the tac I normally have bolt pistol equipped (allows for wider field of view). makes it tougher for an ASM to bushwhack me.
If they get their angles wrong: stun on the hooter & slip slap away.
Of course ASMs misbehave (sometimes approach from difficult angles) counter melee is often unworkable (as stuns tend to glance).